i fail to see why it needs to have space combat in order to be an mmo. that just makes absolutely no sense, it has persistent worlds, it has massive amounts of people playing it online, its based off of the KOTOR brand, which never had space combat and didn't need it.
It doesn't need space content (content includes combat) in order to be an MMO. There is no argument that it's an MMO.
It needs to have space content in order to accurately represent the star wars world on which it's based. It's not based on the KOTOR brand, it's based on the Star Wars brand.
SWG and STO both had space and ground combat and were made by substantially worse developers than BioWare and with a lot less money. Surely BioWare can do better, no? I really don't think it was too high of an expectation for fans of BioWare and Star Wars to expect a game that was significantly better and more elaborate than those two.
Ok firstly I beg to differ about the highlighted bit in your quote. This game IS predominately based on the Kotor Brand. Yes, that brand is loosely based on the Star Wars franchise, but the point is that Kotor didn't have many (if any) space battles as I recall. Bioware are designing the game around the Kotor timeline for a number of reasons, one of which is that Kotor was a successful product and therefore they want to use that successful formula as a foundation for an MMO.
Now secondly, remember that SWG didn't launch with JTL, that came later in an expansion. The point is that one cannot expect Bioware to put together a highly polished landbased MMO WITH the contents of an expansion ready to go for launch in the same time that it would take other MMO devs to put together just the core gameplay. No matter WHO the developer is, there is only so much development time and resources to dedicate to particular elements. People need to remember that and stop to think how long these things take to develop.
Thirdly, remember that STO is a predominately a space based MMO with a bit of ground based play thrown in, SWTOR is the other way around. Unfortunately, Cryptic made a balls up of both, but that's a conversation for a different thread entirely.
Developing space combat isn't just a day of a job, like all things it takes time and resources. Diverting resources to implementing even THIS level of space combat will diminish the resources available to develop the rest of the game. Would I prefer more "space combat"? Yes, but not at the expense of potentially releasing a poorly polished land based MMO.
Now, IF the "space based" part of SWTOR proves to be popular then Bioware have a chance to dedicate resources to it AFTER launch. Not before. That makes sense. They need to focus on the primary core of the game and polish THAT before launch.
The good thing about this is that more in-depth space combat can be implemented at any time AFTER launch and people will see that as a nice bonus, but ONLY if the main core of the game proves to be successful and popular. And that can only have a chance at success if they do it right with the maximum amount of resources and time available before launch day arrives.
I'm still in "wait and see" mode. Once upon a time, it was assumed that there'd BE no space game, and I was still in wait and see mode. Now, we find out that there IS a space game. For me to be upset that it's not gonna be another Tie Fighter/XWA type game... it just don't make sense. Just because it isn't exactly what I want doesn't mean it won't be fun.
I like the ship "housing" idea, and I've played ME and ME2 and they've proven to me they can make it work and add to the game. take ME2 and give lots more customization options, and I'll probably be sold on that.
I have confidence that what they make will be fun and immersive. They have yet to prove that they can make a great big world that I'll want to stay in after I've gone through all the class story content. So, again, I wait and see. I see no reason to claim neither success nor failure at this point, and probably won't til' I get my crusty mitts on the open beta.
Would I prefer more "space combat"? Yes, but not at the expense of potentially releasing a poorly polished land based MMO.
That's just a matter of perspective. Would I prefer a well-polished MMO? Yes, but not at the expense of making a shallow and uninteresting world that fails to do justice to the star wars setting.
I've enjoyed unpolished but more sophisticated games a lot more than i've enjoyed the flawlessly made but completely uninteresting ones. Unfortunately that's not an option these days, the days when a game could afford to release with issues and get by on it's vision and brilliance are past. Now, to truly succeed and for people like yourself to buy it, the game (as you said) needs to be polished more than it needs to be compelling.
So yeah, it's a matter of choice and BioWare has clearly chosen your side. Which is fine, it's probably the side of majority anyway and the majority is where the money is.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
MMO'ers really do want to much out of MMO games. To the poster who said an MMO should be aiming at 2000 hours gameplay content?!? Is this 2000 hours of unique gameplay content or 2000 hours of grind? To fund a game with 2000 hours of unique gameplay content will cost alot more than $150 million and to cover costs the monthly sub will be upped, stopping some from purchasing. Probably also include a cash shop stopping some narrow-minded people from playing.
I mean an MMO should shoot for 2000 hours of actual gameplay by each subscriber. This doesn't mean gameplay content, or even grind.
But it includes grind ( not leveling, but gear), it includes in game wars that has meaning which makes you want to continue to play (pvp) and it also includes socializing be it through in game guild politics or the economy. Basically what I'm trying to say is an average mmo player playing 20 hours a week is 2000 hours over the course of 2 years, every mmo should shoot for that number in their intial release.
2 years is usally the timeframe for major expansions.
I'm not upset or disappointed and frankly I did not really expect anything more.
Mind, though: I don't expect Jarno Trulli to win an F1 race, either - but that doesn't mean he's performing admirably... if you get my drift.
P.S: I liked KOTOR, but any time I replay it, I reload to try and skip the random space encounters. That's what it is to me: Gameplay that's not fun enough to play. To me, Bioware are good in writing RPG and designing d20 D&D encounters, but they are quite lacking in their action-game-design.
i'm glad it has space combat, the type though is what seems a little disappointing. tunnel shooter at launch vs paid expansion, give me the paid expansion. I'd like something bigger and beefier. I want to be able to fly though space a bit on my own, run into a dead space station as an instance, fly into the docking bay of a massive frigate type of stuff. I'll see how it goes and decide once I get to play through it
They are making an MMO not a singleplayer game, if they where amining at theire fans why are they then going for an MMO? Instead of wasting time and money on fluff like Voiceovers they could have done SpaceCombat properly.
You know...I've never been one to bash this Project cause everyone I know is looking forward to it and is going to play it...Heck, 3/4 of My Guild from SWG is reforming for this Game...So really it's all good...
But...I do tend to agree with this point...Especially about the voice-overs...While it seems like a great idea in theory the practical application for Guilds that use Vent regularly is almost non-existent. I just can't see how it's going to work...there's going to be a whole heck of a lot of "Hold on one second I'm listening to an NPC..." or "Can you repeat that I could not hear you over the voice-over..." etc, etc...
I think it's cool that BioWare is stepping out a bit, but I know that the way I Game I'm going to have those voices turned off at least half of the time, maybe more...So I could care less to be honest...But I would LOVE to see a Space element to the Game that would rival JTL...Everyone I know that is going to play this Game would take a kick-ass Space element over voice-overs any day of the week...So no matter how much I'm looking forward to the Game it's hard not to agree with you on this one...
Hmm. Me, I'd rather have VO and deepened quest storytelling that is a break from the questgrinding and more alike the story immersion of a ME, than a deepened space combat at launch. Space combat is great but optional, can be implemented later like SWG did. Interesting, enhanced questing is essential.
Btw, for those who for some reason don't want VO, there's the option to switch to text and you can even skip text until decision moments. I wouldn't want to, but for people that want to skip through their quest text like they do in other MMO's, the option is there.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm not upset nor excited about space combat implementation in TOR. The game is based on the KOTOR setting and lore. KotOR I is the best SW title by far and one of the best rpg's released in the last decade. Did anyone miss the absense of space combat? Did it hinder him from enjoying the game? I think not.
Besides, Bioware never promised fully fledged space combat like x-wing alliance or similar stuff. So i don't see the point of all the moaning.
Hmm. Me, I'd rather have VO and deepened quest storytelling that is a break from the questgrinding and more alike the story immersion of a ME, than a deepened space combat at launch.
It's not that people don't want that. It's that ME (for example) is 30 hours of gameplay. Which in the long is something like 1/20th (if that) of what one does in an MMO. The pre-written storyline or whatever is the first 2-3 weeks of play. The months and years after that are spent after you've finished that part. What people are concerned about is resources being dedicated to this minor part of the game rather than to developing deeper gameplay systems that would provide weeks and months of entertainment.
It's like asking "hey, would you like 1 hour of cinematics or would you like a bounty hunting system that lets you track various prey across different planets and get a variety of rewards?" The hour of cinematics is MASSIVE work to produce and would certainly be totally epic. But it creates 1 hour of total gameplay (or entertainment). Whereas creating a system of some kind creates countless hours of gameplay.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
For this subject, it doesn't matter what they did with their Single-Player RPGs.
What does matter is what they're doing with their first MMORPG. To top it off, a Star Wars MMORPG. SWG when it came out in '03 had flaws. But if you catch up on those launch reviews, one of those recurring hits SWG got from it all was the lack of space travel and combat. Reviewers were asking, "How can you have a Star Wars MMORPG with no star wars? No space combat?"
A turret / rail shooter does not constitute a worthy space combat game for a Star Wars MMORPG. Because there is absolutely no depth, no choice, no worthwhile customization at all. No freedom in maneuvering. No good reasons to have a variety of ships to fight with at all, since a turret / rail shooter by nature has everything predetermined.
Hell, there were people subbing SWG and playing ONLY the space game and never bothering with the ground game at all. Except for crafting and picking up certain piloting missions.
The simple fact is that BioWare is trying to pump out an MMORPG. That means a game where it is expected for you to sink alot of time and effort into. Whether you are casual or hardcore, MMORPGs require a longer devotion of time and effort than you would ever do with almost all SP-RPGs. What does that mean, especially for a Star Wars MMORPG? You need ground combat. You also need space combat. Both need depth of play, reasons for you to sink your teeth into the game.
If SWTOR has a good space game, I promise you there are people that will sub solely because of that. A good space game will also give more reasons to stick with it. Another hook.
How many MMORPGs can boast having good ground combat AND a space / air / etc. game?
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Hmm. Me, I'd rather have VO and deepened quest storytelling that is a break from the questgrinding and more alike the story immersion of a ME, than a deepened space combat at launch.
It's not that people don't want that. It's that ME (for example) is 30 hours of gameplay. Which in the long is something like 1/20th (if that) of what one does in an MMO. The pre-written storyline or whatever is the first 2-3 weeks of play. The months and years after that are spent after you've finished that part. What people are concerned about is resources being dedicated to this minor part of the game rather than to developing deeper gameplay systems that would provide weeks and months of entertainment.
It's like asking "hey, would you like 1 hour of cinematics or would you like a bounty hunting system that lets you track various prey across different planets and get a variety of rewards?" The hour of cinematics is MASSIVE work to produce and would certainly be totally epic. But it creates 1 hour of total gameplay (or entertainment). Whereas creating a system of some kind creates countless hours of gameplay.
Interesting. Because what you're saying is what some other people are thinking and saying, namely that the whole questing and leveling to level cap is irrelevant or unimportant, and that's what is there as content at level cap is the most important, because that's where you'll spend most of your time in a MMO anyway.
This line of thought would justify the racing-towards-level cap mentality and quest text being nothing more than some flavor text, to be ignored, in the quest grinding.
It's not the approach of Bioware though: they've stated that they found story immersion lacking in current MMO's, and they worked on creating a system for deepened questing: with VO, interactive dialogue + interrupts a la ME2, choices with consequences, companions and team members that participate in the dialogues, seamless transition between story instances and the open world to make it one world.
All this has been created to shape a system that would provide storytelling immersion from the start.
Also not just for 30 hours, but each class has 200 hours of unique story content, resulting in a total of 800 hours of class story content for each side. That is a lot of hours of gameplay, even for the excessive players. Besides that, we have the regular quests and the world campaign missions.
Looks to me that their effort in deepening the story immersion part of MMO isn't without value, provided that all the other MMO elements are present in SW:TOR: but we'll have to wait and see what they come up with for the other stuff.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
For someone like me who doesn't really like space based game-play all that much, it's really a non-issue. My only question is, why does what they announced automatically equal to the suck for so many people? Yeah, it's not what you may have been hoping for, does that mean it can't be fun, simply because it's not exactly what you wanted?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For this subject, it doesn't matter what they did with their Single-Player RPGs.
What does matter is what they're doing with their first MMORPG. To top it off, a Star Wars MMORPG. SWG when it came out in '03 had flaws. But if you catch up on those launch reviews, one of those recurring hits SWG got from it all was the lack of space travel and combat. Reviewers were asking, "How can you have a Star Wars MMORPG with no star wars? No space combat?"
A turret / rail shooter does not constitute a worthy space combat game for a Star Wars MMORPG. Because there is absolutely no depth, no choice, no worthwhile customization at all. No freedom in maneuvering. No good reasons to have a variety of ships to fight with at all, since a turret / rail shooter by nature has everything predetermined.
Hell, there were people subbing SWG and playing ONLY the space game and never bothering with the ground game at all. Except for crafting and picking up certain piloting missions.
The simple fact is that BioWare is trying to pump out an MMORPG. That means a game where it is expected for you to sink alot of time and effort into. Whether you are casual or hardcore, MMORPGs require a longer devotion of time and effort than you would ever do with almost all SP-RPGs. What does that mean, especially for a Star Wars MMORPG? You need ground combat. You also need space combat. Both need depth of play, reasons for you to sink your teeth into the game.
If SWTOR has a good space game, I promise you there are people that will sub solely because of that. A good space game will also give more reasons to stick with it. Another hook.
How many MMORPGs can boast having good ground combat AND a space / air / etc. game?
That's like expecting them to build two games though, and of 100% different principles. Spaced based games are a different beast, they require a different ruleset and focus than what has been planned for TOR. It fit into SWG well simply because it was a semi-sandbox with tons of different motivations to do this or that.
TOR is all about story, which fast paced action oriented space combat fits much better within. Think of it like this, say you approach an NPC of your given faction, they have an ongoing operation based on the ground and space, some pick up the ground mission and complete those objectives, while others pick the space based mission and complete those objectives.
This is how I see this working, which to me doesn't sound all that bad.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by baphamet i fail to see why it needs to have space combat in order to be an mmo. that just makes absolutely no sense, it has persistent worlds, it has massive amounts of people playing it online, its based off of the KOTOR brand, which never had space combat and didn't need it.
It doesn't need space content (content includes combat) in order to be an MMO. There is no argument that it's an MMO.
It needs to have space content in order to accurately represent the star wars world on which it's based. It's not based on the KOTOR brand, it's based on the Star Wars brand.
SWG and STO both had space and ground combat and were made by substantially worse developers than BioWare and with a lot less money. Surely BioWare can do better, no? I really don't think it was too high of an expectation for fans of BioWare and Star Wars to expect a game that was significantly better and more elaborate than those two.
ummm no, like i said this is a bioware game that is the spiritual mmo successor to KOTOR, which had no space content.....yet many people (including myself) consider that one of the best star wars games ever made.
it doesn't need extensive space content at all to succeed. also, no... bioware does not have to implement better space combat than SWG, you seem to think this game absolutely has to have extensive space combat but the success of the other KOTOR games and ME disagrees with you.
after all, this is not SWG2 or STO2 its basically KOTOR online, it makes sense that the game isn't geared for extensive space combat since the other games were not.
its geared more around story and ground combat, just like the other games.
For this subject, it doesn't matter what they did with their Single-Player RPGs.
What does matter is what they're doing with their first MMORPG. To top it off, a Star Wars MMORPG. SWG when it came out in '03 had flaws. But if you catch up on those launch reviews, one of those recurring hits SWG got from it all was the lack of space travel and combat. Reviewers were asking, "How can you have a Star Wars MMORPG with no star wars? No space combat?"
A turret / rail shooter does not constitute a worthy space combat game for a Star Wars MMORPG. Because there is absolutely no depth, no choice, no worthwhile customization at all. No freedom in maneuvering. No good reasons to have a variety of ships to fight with at all, since a turret / rail shooter by nature has everything predetermined.
Hell, there were people subbing SWG and playing ONLY the space game and never bothering with the ground game at all. Except for crafting and picking up certain piloting missions.
The simple fact is that BioWare is trying to pump out an MMORPG. That means a game where it is expected for you to sink alot of time and effort into. Whether you are casual or hardcore, MMORPGs require a longer devotion of time and effort than you would ever do with almost all SP-RPGs. What does that mean, especially for a Star Wars MMORPG? You need ground combat. You also need space combat. Both need depth of play, reasons for you to sink your teeth into the game.
If SWTOR has a good space game, I promise you there are people that will sub solely because of that. A good space game will also give more reasons to stick with it. Another hook.
How many MMORPGs can boast having good ground combat AND a space / air / etc. game?
That's like expecting them to build two games though, and of 100% different principles. Spaced based games are a different beast, they require a different ruleset and focus than what has been planned for TOR. It fit into SWG well simply because it was a semi-sandbox with tons of different motivations to do this or that.
TOR is all about story, which fast paced action oriented space combat fits much better within. Think of it like this, say you approach an NPC of your given faction, they have an ongoing operation based on the ground and space, some pick up the ground mission and complete those objectives, while others pick the space based mission and complete those objectives.
This is how I see this working, which to me doesn't sound all that bad.
I'll say it again bro... SWG when it came out in '03 was mercilessly ripped apart in reviews for not having a proper space game.
And a rail / tunnel shooter in an MMORPG? Are you serious? This isn't a single player RPG like KOTOR1.
There's a link in the other space related thread in this forum with the US PC Gamer article on the subject. Even the author, already at this point in time with access to the exclusive info, is already questioning why BioWare is going with such a simplistic, overly "safe" route. He agreed that including space combat in SWTOR is a great idea to avoid one of the major hits SWG had on release. But the method of how BioWare is implementing space is "too safe."
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
ummm no, like i said this is a bioware game that is the spiritual mmo successor to KOTOR, which had no space content.....yet many people (including myself) consider that one of the best star wars games ever made.
it doesn't need extensive space content at all to succeed. also, no... bioware does not have to implement better space combat than SWG, you seem to think this game absolutely has to have extensive space combat but the success of the other KOTOR games and ME disagrees with you.
after all, this is not SWG2 or STO2 its basically KOTOR online, it makes sense that the game isn't geared for extensive space combat since the other games were not.
its geared more around story and ground combat, just like the other games.
I think you didn't read my other post, but i'll summarize for you:
You can tell one short Star Wars story that takes place on the ground in an amazing way. This what KOTOR did, it told one story that takes place on the ground. For a short single-player game, it's fine. And KOTOR was one of the best Star Wars games. But one can argue that X-Wing was an even better star wars game and it had no ground content. Tgere is no argument that you can make a cool single-player game without including both ground and space.
An MMO, by design, is something more than one short story. It's a world to inhabit, a place for characters to live. The Star Wars setting - for better or worse - is not complete without both ground and space gameplay (GAMEPLAY - not just combat!)
Also - as you keep mentioning it - i couldn't care less if space combat is "on rails" or whatever. I don't even care if space is done the way it is in ME2 with the little ship. The technical specs of it, i don't care about. What I care about is having a ship, being able to explore, smuggle, bounty hunt and fight. Hell, Star Wars Rebellion - with it's tiny little ships - still has some of my favourite Star Wars space encounters.
Both ME and ME2 had exploration gameplay that involved exploring space and landing on different planets. It was extremely basic but it was pretty much the only thing that made you want to stay in the world and continue playing like part of the world after the story was told.
Once the TOR storyline is done, it'll be just you, your ship and the universe. And it's a lot more star wars if you get into that ship to go find your place in it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
Not really sure space combat will add much to the game, Space exploration is another mater though.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Originally posted by baphamet ummm no, like i said this is a bioware game that is the spiritual mmo successor to KOTOR, which had no space content.....yet many people (including myself) consider that one of the best star wars games ever made. it doesn't need extensive space content at all to succeed. also, no... bioware does not have to implement better space combat than SWG, you seem to think this game absolutely has to have extensive space combat but the success of the other KOTOR games and ME disagrees with you. after all, this is not SWG2 or STO2 its basically KOTOR online, it makes sense that the game isn't geared for extensive space combat since the other games were not. its geared more around story and ground combat, just like the other games.
I think you didn't read my other post, but i'll summarize for you: You can tell one short Star Wars story that takes place on the ground in an amazing way. This what KOTOR did, it told one story that takes place on the ground. For a short single-player game, it's fine. And KOTOR was one of the best Star Wars games. But one can argue that X-Wing was an even better star wars game and it had no ground content. Tgere is no argument that you can make a cool single-player game without including both ground and space. An MMO, by design, is something more than one short story. It's a world to inhabit, a place for characters to live. The Star Wars setting - for better or worse - is not complete without both ground and space gameplay (GAMEPLAY - not just combat!) Also - as you keep mentioning it - i couldn't care less if space combat is "on rails" or whatever. I don't even care if space is done the way it is in ME2 with the little ship. The technical specs of it, i don't care about. What I care about is having a ship, being able to explore, smuggle, bounty hunt and fight. Hell, Star Wars Rebellion - with it's tiny little ships - still has some of my favourite Star Wars space encounters. Both ME and ME2 had exploration gameplay that involved exploring space and landing on different planets. It was extremely basic but it was pretty much the only thing that made you want to stay in the world and continue playing like part of the world after the story was told.
Once the TOR storyline is done, it'll be just you, your ship and the universe. And it's a lot more star wars if you get into that ship to go find your place in it.
and again, you are assuming they will not have enough regular content....
Building Star Wars: The Old Republic is essentially building Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (KOTOR) 3 through KOTOR 10, and then shipping them all at once. There is as much story content here as in all BioWare games combined.
I'm optimistic about TOR and will be purchasing it because I've always had fun with Bioware's games.
That said MMO's are a different animal, there has to be content that is continous. Literally an MMO should aim for around 2000 hours of gameplay, a single player game that has 50 hours would be considered a long game in todays standards. So this is where people come off saying the game is on rails including space and it has them worried.
Will we play after running through the story a time or two? What will keep us playing?
Does it have a gear grind like WoW?
Or maybe an economy and politics of Eve?
How about the feeling of a living universe the sorts of SWG?
After I do my story what will keep me and the rest of MMO'ers playing, that is the test that Bioware has to pass. Can they do it, I hope so or I'm done with the genre, so I'm optimistic but it will be a surprise to me if they can hold me for longer than 6 months, here's to hoping they can.
After you finish the hle story (which will take VERY long), you start the story line of other classes, or simply play in PVP areas. It'll be hard to get bored of the game if you like role-playing. And anyway, just be patient. We'll figure out soon enough anyway.
You are fully capable of choosing your own destiny. The question you face is: wich path will you choose?
are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
I really like Bioware games which is also the main reason why Im looking forward to SW: TOR. About the spacecombat, I didnt even expect any spacecombat untill they announced it.
But now they chose to add it at launch, Im a little disappointed. I rather wouldve seen SW:TOR being shipped without spacecombat and maybe spacecombat later on added as full expansion pack. So that they wouldve had the time to develop something like JTL in SWG. 3D space with several types of ships, each with an interior you can walk around in during spacetravel/combat like the POB's in SWG.
Anyway, now that they chose to implement the spacecombat on rails type of game, itll be a missed chance. There is no way that they will turn it into a full 3d space part of the game. So thats why Im a little disappointed.
MMO'ers really do want to much out of MMO games. To the poster who said an MMO should be aiming at 2000 hours gameplay content?!? Is this 2000 hours of unique gameplay content or 2000 hours of grind? To fund a game with 2000 hours of unique gameplay content will cost alot more than $150 million and to cover costs the monthly sub will be upped, stopping some from purchasing. Probably also include a cash shop stopping some narrow-minded people from playing.
From the info we have now. Each class will have 200 hours of story arc content. So with 8 classes, there will be 1600 hours of different content to play through. Every quest willmbe different for each class. That doesn't include world story arc quest content or open world questing in which there is said to be thousands(from comic-con). It also doesn't include the side game of space combat.
As far as MMO content. I see plenty of world group quests and flashpoints talked about. Also the fact that they will have raids, warzones on planets that have an effect on the planet, crafting of some kind, AH's, social spots, open world PvP on PvP servers and exploration that will reward you. There will be plenty of MMO in this RPG, I have no doubt.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
I like Bioware but really tbh without a space game no star wars MMO will be complete!!
space goes hand in hand with jedi and sabers. even if the game launched and this was never said and they decided to pull it and never say anything.. within a year people would be asking for it.
So to say they have a space combat and to have it on rails its just a bad joke!! remove it from game and i never want to see it and id rather go without till they figure out how to make a real space part of the game..
are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
I like some, but not all, of Bioware's games. I am not really upset about the space combat. I just don't like it.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Comments
Ok firstly I beg to differ about the highlighted bit in your quote. This game IS predominately based on the Kotor Brand. Yes, that brand is loosely based on the Star Wars franchise, but the point is that Kotor didn't have many (if any) space battles as I recall. Bioware are designing the game around the Kotor timeline for a number of reasons, one of which is that Kotor was a successful product and therefore they want to use that successful formula as a foundation for an MMO.
Now secondly, remember that SWG didn't launch with JTL, that came later in an expansion. The point is that one cannot expect Bioware to put together a highly polished landbased MMO WITH the contents of an expansion ready to go for launch in the same time that it would take other MMO devs to put together just the core gameplay. No matter WHO the developer is, there is only so much development time and resources to dedicate to particular elements. People need to remember that and stop to think how long these things take to develop.
Thirdly, remember that STO is a predominately a space based MMO with a bit of ground based play thrown in, SWTOR is the other way around. Unfortunately, Cryptic made a balls up of both, but that's a conversation for a different thread entirely.
Developing space combat isn't just a day of a job, like all things it takes time and resources. Diverting resources to implementing even THIS level of space combat will diminish the resources available to develop the rest of the game. Would I prefer more "space combat"? Yes, but not at the expense of potentially releasing a poorly polished land based MMO.
Now, IF the "space based" part of SWTOR proves to be popular then Bioware have a chance to dedicate resources to it AFTER launch. Not before. That makes sense. They need to focus on the primary core of the game and polish THAT before launch.
The good thing about this is that more in-depth space combat can be implemented at any time AFTER launch and people will see that as a nice bonus, but ONLY if the main core of the game proves to be successful and popular. And that can only have a chance at success if they do it right with the maximum amount of resources and time available before launch day arrives.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I'm still in "wait and see" mode. Once upon a time, it was assumed that there'd BE no space game, and I was still in wait and see mode. Now, we find out that there IS a space game. For me to be upset that it's not gonna be another Tie Fighter/XWA type game... it just don't make sense. Just because it isn't exactly what I want doesn't mean it won't be fun.
I like the ship "housing" idea, and I've played ME and ME2 and they've proven to me they can make it work and add to the game. take ME2 and give lots more customization options, and I'll probably be sold on that.
I have confidence that what they make will be fun and immersive. They have yet to prove that they can make a great big world that I'll want to stay in after I've gone through all the class story content. So, again, I wait and see. I see no reason to claim neither success nor failure at this point, and probably won't til' I get my crusty mitts on the open beta.
That's just a matter of perspective. Would I prefer a well-polished MMO? Yes, but not at the expense of making a shallow and uninteresting world that fails to do justice to the star wars setting.
I've enjoyed unpolished but more sophisticated games a lot more than i've enjoyed the flawlessly made but completely uninteresting ones. Unfortunately that's not an option these days, the days when a game could afford to release with issues and get by on it's vision and brilliance are past. Now, to truly succeed and for people like yourself to buy it, the game (as you said) needs to be polished more than it needs to be compelling.
So yeah, it's a matter of choice and BioWare has clearly chosen your side. Which is fine, it's probably the side of majority anyway and the majority is where the money is.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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I mean an MMO should shoot for 2000 hours of actual gameplay by each subscriber. This doesn't mean gameplay content, or even grind.
But it includes grind ( not leveling, but gear), it includes in game wars that has meaning which makes you want to continue to play (pvp) and it also includes socializing be it through in game guild politics or the economy. Basically what I'm trying to say is an average mmo player playing 20 hours a week is 2000 hours over the course of 2 years, every mmo should shoot for that number in their intial release.
2 years is usally the timeframe for major expansions.
I'm not upset or disappointed and frankly I did not really expect anything more.
Mind, though: I don't expect Jarno Trulli to win an F1 race, either - but that doesn't mean he's performing admirably... if you get my drift.
P.S: I liked KOTOR, but any time I replay it, I reload to try and skip the random space encounters. That's what it is to me: Gameplay that's not fun enough to play. To me, Bioware are good in writing RPG and designing d20 D&D encounters, but they are quite lacking in their action-game-design.
i'm glad it has space combat, the type though is what seems a little disappointing. tunnel shooter at launch vs paid expansion, give me the paid expansion. I'd like something bigger and beefier. I want to be able to fly though space a bit on my own, run into a dead space station as an instance, fly into the docking bay of a massive frigate type of stuff. I'll see how it goes and decide once I get to play through it
You know...I've never been one to bash this Project cause everyone I know is looking forward to it and is going to play it...Heck, 3/4 of My Guild from SWG is reforming for this Game...So really it's all good...
But...I do tend to agree with this point...Especially about the voice-overs...While it seems like a great idea in theory the practical application for Guilds that use Vent regularly is almost non-existent. I just can't see how it's going to work...there's going to be a whole heck of a lot of "Hold on one second I'm listening to an NPC..." or "Can you repeat that I could not hear you over the voice-over..." etc, etc...
I think it's cool that BioWare is stepping out a bit, but I know that the way I Game I'm going to have those voices turned off at least half of the time, maybe more...So I could care less to be honest...But I would LOVE to see a Space element to the Game that would rival JTL...Everyone I know that is going to play this Game would take a kick-ass Space element over voice-overs any day of the week...So no matter how much I'm looking forward to the Game it's hard not to agree with you on this one...
Hmm. Me, I'd rather have VO and deepened quest storytelling that is a break from the questgrinding and more alike the story immersion of a ME, than a deepened space combat at launch. Space combat is great but optional, can be implemented later like SWG did. Interesting, enhanced questing is essential.
Btw, for those who for some reason don't want VO, there's the option to switch to text and you can even skip text until decision moments. I wouldn't want to, but for people that want to skip through their quest text like they do in other MMO's, the option is there.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm not upset nor excited about space combat implementation in TOR. The game is based on the KOTOR setting and lore. KotOR I is the best SW title by far and one of the best rpg's released in the last decade. Did anyone miss the absense of space combat? Did it hinder him from enjoying the game? I think not.
Besides, Bioware never promised fully fledged space combat like x-wing alliance or similar stuff. So i don't see the point of all the moaning.
It's not that people don't want that. It's that ME (for example) is 30 hours of gameplay. Which in the long is something like 1/20th (if that) of what one does in an MMO. The pre-written storyline or whatever is the first 2-3 weeks of play. The months and years after that are spent after you've finished that part. What people are concerned about is resources being dedicated to this minor part of the game rather than to developing deeper gameplay systems that would provide weeks and months of entertainment.
It's like asking "hey, would you like 1 hour of cinematics or would you like a bounty hunting system that lets you track various prey across different planets and get a variety of rewards?" The hour of cinematics is MASSIVE work to produce and would certainly be totally epic. But it creates 1 hour of total gameplay (or entertainment). Whereas creating a system of some kind creates countless hours of gameplay.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
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Currently Playing: ESO
For this subject, it doesn't matter what they did with their Single-Player RPGs.
What does matter is what they're doing with their first MMORPG. To top it off, a Star Wars MMORPG. SWG when it came out in '03 had flaws. But if you catch up on those launch reviews, one of those recurring hits SWG got from it all was the lack of space travel and combat. Reviewers were asking, "How can you have a Star Wars MMORPG with no star wars? No space combat?"
A turret / rail shooter does not constitute a worthy space combat game for a Star Wars MMORPG. Because there is absolutely no depth, no choice, no worthwhile customization at all. No freedom in maneuvering. No good reasons to have a variety of ships to fight with at all, since a turret / rail shooter by nature has everything predetermined.
Hell, there were people subbing SWG and playing ONLY the space game and never bothering with the ground game at all. Except for crafting and picking up certain piloting missions.
The simple fact is that BioWare is trying to pump out an MMORPG. That means a game where it is expected for you to sink alot of time and effort into. Whether you are casual or hardcore, MMORPGs require a longer devotion of time and effort than you would ever do with almost all SP-RPGs. What does that mean, especially for a Star Wars MMORPG? You need ground combat. You also need space combat. Both need depth of play, reasons for you to sink your teeth into the game.
If SWTOR has a good space game, I promise you there are people that will sub solely because of that. A good space game will also give more reasons to stick with it. Another hook.
How many MMORPGs can boast having good ground combat AND a space / air / etc. game?
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Interesting. Because what you're saying is what some other people are thinking and saying, namely that the whole questing and leveling to level cap is irrelevant or unimportant, and that's what is there as content at level cap is the most important, because that's where you'll spend most of your time in a MMO anyway.
This line of thought would justify the racing-towards-level cap mentality and quest text being nothing more than some flavor text, to be ignored, in the quest grinding.
It's not the approach of Bioware though: they've stated that they found story immersion lacking in current MMO's, and they worked on creating a system for deepened questing: with VO, interactive dialogue + interrupts a la ME2, choices with consequences, companions and team members that participate in the dialogues, seamless transition between story instances and the open world to make it one world.
All this has been created to shape a system that would provide storytelling immersion from the start.
Also not just for 30 hours, but each class has 200 hours of unique story content, resulting in a total of 800 hours of class story content for each side. That is a lot of hours of gameplay, even for the excessive players. Besides that, we have the regular quests and the world campaign missions.
Looks to me that their effort in deepening the story immersion part of MMO isn't without value, provided that all the other MMO elements are present in SW:TOR: but we'll have to wait and see what they come up with for the other stuff.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
For someone like me who doesn't really like space based game-play all that much, it's really a non-issue. My only question is, why does what they announced automatically equal to the suck for so many people? Yeah, it's not what you may have been hoping for, does that mean it can't be fun, simply because it's not exactly what you wanted?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That's like expecting them to build two games though, and of 100% different principles. Spaced based games are a different beast, they require a different ruleset and focus than what has been planned for TOR. It fit into SWG well simply because it was a semi-sandbox with tons of different motivations to do this or that.
TOR is all about story, which fast paced action oriented space combat fits much better within. Think of it like this, say you approach an NPC of your given faction, they have an ongoing operation based on the ground and space, some pick up the ground mission and complete those objectives, while others pick the space based mission and complete those objectives.
This is how I see this working, which to me doesn't sound all that bad.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It needs to have space content in order to accurately represent the star wars world on which it's based. It's not based on the KOTOR brand, it's based on the Star Wars brand.
SWG and STO both had space and ground combat and were made by substantially worse developers than BioWare and with a lot less money. Surely BioWare can do better, no? I really don't think it was too high of an expectation for fans of BioWare and Star Wars to expect a game that was significantly better and more elaborate than those two.
ummm no, like i said this is a bioware game that is the spiritual mmo successor to KOTOR, which had no space content.....yet many people (including myself) consider that one of the best star wars games ever made.
it doesn't need extensive space content at all to succeed. also, no... bioware does not have to implement better space combat than SWG, you seem to think this game absolutely has to have extensive space combat but the success of the other KOTOR games and ME disagrees with you.
after all, this is not SWG2 or STO2 its basically KOTOR online, it makes sense that the game isn't geared for extensive space combat since the other games were not.
its geared more around story and ground combat, just like the other games.
I'll say it again bro... SWG when it came out in '03 was mercilessly ripped apart in reviews for not having a proper space game.
And a rail / tunnel shooter in an MMORPG? Are you serious? This isn't a single player RPG like KOTOR1.
There's a link in the other space related thread in this forum with the US PC Gamer article on the subject. Even the author, already at this point in time with access to the exclusive info, is already questioning why BioWare is going with such a simplistic, overly "safe" route. He agreed that including space combat in SWTOR is a great idea to avoid one of the major hits SWG had on release. But the method of how BioWare is implementing space is "too safe."
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I think you didn't read my other post, but i'll summarize for you:
You can tell one short Star Wars story that takes place on the ground in an amazing way. This what KOTOR did, it told one story that takes place on the ground. For a short single-player game, it's fine. And KOTOR was one of the best Star Wars games. But one can argue that X-Wing was an even better star wars game and it had no ground content. Tgere is no argument that you can make a cool single-player game without including both ground and space.
An MMO, by design, is something more than one short story. It's a world to inhabit, a place for characters to live. The Star Wars setting - for better or worse - is not complete without both ground and space gameplay (GAMEPLAY - not just combat!)
Also - as you keep mentioning it - i couldn't care less if space combat is "on rails" or whatever. I don't even care if space is done the way it is in ME2 with the little ship. The technical specs of it, i don't care about. What I care about is having a ship, being able to explore, smuggle, bounty hunt and fight. Hell, Star Wars Rebellion - with it's tiny little ships - still has some of my favourite Star Wars space encounters.
Both ME and ME2 had exploration gameplay that involved exploring space and landing on different planets. It was extremely basic but it was pretty much the only thing that made you want to stay in the world and continue playing like part of the world after the story was told.
Once the TOR storyline is done, it'll be just you, your ship and the universe. And it's a lot more star wars if you get into that ship to go find your place in it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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Not really sure space combat will add much to the game, Space exploration is another mater though.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
and again, you are assuming they will not have enough regular content....
http://www.swtor.com/news/bwblog/20090206_001
i certainly understand wanting to explore space and wanting extensive space content but that is just not bioware's style, this is a bioware MMO.
After you finish the hle story (which will take VERY long), you start the story line of other classes, or simply play in PVP areas. It'll be hard to get bored of the game if you like role-playing. And anyway, just be patient. We'll figure out soon enough anyway.
You are fully capable of choosing your own destiny. The question you face is: wich path will you choose?
I wanted this style of space combat, much faster pace and fun. I didn't want a whole nother' world to explore in space.
I really like Bioware games which is also the main reason why Im looking forward to SW: TOR. About the spacecombat, I didnt even expect any spacecombat untill they announced it.
But now they chose to add it at launch, Im a little disappointed. I rather wouldve seen SW:TOR being shipped without spacecombat and maybe spacecombat later on added as full expansion pack. So that they wouldve had the time to develop something like JTL in SWG. 3D space with several types of ships, each with an interior you can walk around in during spacetravel/combat like the POB's in SWG.
Anyway, now that they chose to implement the spacecombat on rails type of game, itll be a missed chance. There is no way that they will turn it into a full 3d space part of the game. So thats why Im a little disappointed.
From the info we have now. Each class will have 200 hours of story arc content. So with 8 classes, there will be 1600 hours of different content to play through. Every quest willmbe different for each class. That doesn't include world story arc quest content or open world questing in which there is said to be thousands(from comic-con). It also doesn't include the side game of space combat.
As far as MMO content. I see plenty of world group quests and flashpoints talked about. Also the fact that they will have raids, warzones on planets that have an effect on the planet, crafting of some kind, AH's, social spots, open world PvP on PvP servers and exploration that will reward you. There will be plenty of MMO in this RPG, I have no doubt.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
I like Bioware but really tbh without a space game no star wars MMO will be complete!!
space goes hand in hand with jedi and sabers. even if the game launched and this was never said and they decided to pull it and never say anything.. within a year people would be asking for it.
So to say they have a space combat and to have it on rails its just a bad joke!! remove it from game and i never want to see it and id rather go without till they figure out how to make a real space part of the game..
I like some, but not all, of Bioware's games. I am not really upset about the space combat. I just don't like it.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.