I'll say it again bro... SWG when it came out in '03 was mercilessly ripped apart in reviews for not having a proper space game.
SWG had nothing when it came out, so bad example IMO. I say that semi jokingly. As it had plenty we just had to walk everywhere, lol. SWG literally had no trasportation for quite a while, anyone else walk to jabba's from eisley the second they hit ground?
I must say, on my server (bloodfin) space was never exactly jumping with activity from what I remember, not many seemed to enjoy it all that much in my guild I know that much.
And a rail / tunnel shooter in an MMORPG? Are you serious? This isn't a single player RPG like KOTOR1.
Well I didn't say yippee it's a rail shooter, Ima sold on dis un. I really don't dig flying around in space, that's where the seems fine to me part came from, if it's fun of course I might enjoy it. But a space sim I'd definitely not enjoy.
To be honest I think it's going to be a single player like MMO, and more and more with every new bit of information. WHich will be fine as long as it's updated regularly IMO.
There's a link in the other space related thread in this forum with the US PC Gamer article on the subject. Even the author, already at this point in time with access to the exclusive info, is already questioning why BioWare is going with such a simplistic, overly "safe" route. He agreed that including space combat in SWTOR is a great idea to avoid one of the major hits SWG had on release. But the method of how BioWare is implementing space is "too safe."
That's obvious, they need 1-2 mil to be successful, they're playing it safe for that reason alone.
Which I know is meaningless to most of us. My only concern with space combat is them biting off more than they can chew. If I thought it wouldn't interfere with other parts of development I'd have no complaint about the complaints, I'd be silent on the issue.
I think people waited far to long to bring this issue up as loudly as they're voicing it now. AS it's a little to late to do much about it, at least to the scope people seem to want.
The only other issue of interest to me on this subject is what they plan to do about it. Scrap it? Change it? Focus more resource to it? Nothing? Will be interesting to see.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'll say it again bro... SWG when it came out in '03 was mercilessly ripped apart in reviews for not having a proper space game.
SWG had nothing when it came out, so bad example IMO. I say that semi jokingly. As it had plenty we just had to walk everywhere, lol. SWG literally had no trasportation for quite a while, anyone else walk to jabba's from eisley the second they hit ground?
I must say, on my server (bloodfin) space was never exactly jumping with activity from what I remember, not many seemed to enjoy it all that much in my guild I know that much.
And a rail / tunnel shooter in an MMORPG? Are you serious? This isn't a single player RPG like KOTOR1.
Well I didn't say yippee it's a rail shooter, Ima sold on dis un. I really don't dig flying around in space, that's where the seems fine to me part came from, if it's fun of course I might enjoy it. But a space sim I'd definitely not enjoy.
To be honest I think it's going to be a single player like MMO, and more and more with every new bit of information. WHich will be fine as long as it's updated regularly IMO.
There's a link in the other space related thread in this forum with the US PC Gamer article on the subject. Even the author, already at this point in time with access to the exclusive info, is already questioning why BioWare is going with such a simplistic, overly "safe" route. He agreed that including space combat in SWTOR is a great idea to avoid one of the major hits SWG had on release. But the method of how BioWare is implementing space is "too safe."
That's obvious, they need 1-2 mil to be successful, they're playing it safe for that reason alone.
Which I know is meaningless to most of us. My only concern with space combat is them biting off more than they can chew. If I thought it wouldn't interfere with other parts of development I'd have no complaint about the complaints, I'd be silent on the issue.
I think people waited far to long to bring this issue up as loudly as they're voicing it now. AS it's a little to late to do much about it, at least to the scope people seem to want.
The only other issue of interest to me on this subject is what they plan to do about it. Scrap it? Change it? Focus more resource to it? Nothing? Will be interesting to see.
^^^^ this! I am worried that bioware is going to be forced to work on this, and then every major facet of the core game will be cut short and/or ruined because of the narrow-sighted whiners who can't see one expansion pack into the future... yeah... we're gonna end up with rogue squadron 4 instead of kotor 3
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^^^^ this! I am worried that bioware is going to be forced to work on this, and then every major facet of the core game will be cut short and/or ruined because of the narrow-sighted whiners who can't see one expansion pack into the future... yeah... we're gonna end up with rogue squadron 4 instead of kotor 3
If they weren't going to put any real effort into this part of the game, they should have left it out until they could do so. Your insults are not necessary, but then again, some of these die-hard fans can't seem to do much more than stomp their feet and run away with their fingers in their ears.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I dont think its without effort. Its just not a huge part of the game. Right now maybe u have 2 -3 quest that require space combat. Sure in the original 3 movies space combat was a part of it . But even then most of the movies were ground based. Or space station based. My understanding is there will be group instances or group quests in swtor so isnt gonna be just a single player mmo. U will have player housing to invite freinds over.
i guess i dont understand why people think its gonna be solely a single player mmo. I havent seen much if anything on how they will handle end game. Or max level. If they will have raids or what they are gonna do. Pvp will be a part of swtor we know. Mostly looks like an instance type of pvp more hten world pvp but tht will depned on if they have pvp servers or not. Another thing we dont know.
I just dont think space combat on rails is a big deal right now. I personally cant wait to play a sith warrior or jedi consular . Im more interested in the force classes because ina ll the star wars stuff thats what interests me . If in the future they had a fighter pilot class then worry about how they handle space combat is my point i guess. Till then space combat on rails doesnt bother me . Im gonna test it out and give it a few months before i decide if i like it or not though. cause im a huge star wars fan and a star wars mmo just makes me geek out.
Originally posted by Nesrie Originally posted by Souldrainer
^^^^ this! I am worried that bioware is going to be forced to work on this, and then every major facet of the core game will be cut short and/or ruined because of the narrow-sighted whiners who can't see one expansion pack into the future... yeah... we're gonna end up with rogue squadron 4 instead of kotor 3 If they weren't going to put any real effort into this part of the game, they should have left it out until they could do so. Your insults are not necessary, but then again, some of these die-hard fans can't seem to do much more than stomp their feet and run away with their fingers in their ears.
maybe they don't ever intend to put extensive space combat or space exploration in the game? after all, none of their space games have ever had that kind of content.
i think with the info they have released, the space content they do have is mainly for story and immersion.
they don't need to have extensive space content to have a successful starwars game, its been tested and proven.
and no, just because it is an mmo does not make that fact any different as long as they have enough regular content, which they have claimed they do so we will see.
some people are upset by this and if they are a fan of KOTOR and bioware games in general, i really don't understand why.
actually, yes i do....its this forum and the way its always been. people crying because they don't get the game they want with unrealistic expectations only to be let down once again.
or its just a pointless "haters" vs "fanboi" flame war.
which is why until recently, i have steered clear from posting here.
Originally posted by Nesrie Originally posted by baphamet are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them? i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game? many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
I like some, but not all, of Bioware's games. I am not really upset about the space combat. I just don't like it.
you dont have to like it, or bioware games, or this game for that matter. the reality is, extensive space combat and exploration is an unrealistic expectation for a bioware "KOTOR" stawars game because it isn't consistent with anything they have ever done.
would it have been sweet to add that kind of content on top of the regular story/ ground content? hell yes! but to expect that from them and be upset that it isn't in there?(not saying you are)
i just don't get it. this is a bioware mmo, more importantly this is KOTOR turned into an mmo. they don't need to reinvent the wheel with this game or go out in left field.
they just need to do what they say they are doing and concentrate on what they do best....story telling and rpg.....not space combat, especially at the expense of regular content.
Originally posted by someforumguy Originally posted by baphamet are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them? i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game? many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
I really like Bioware games which is also the main reason why Im looking forward to SW: TOR. About the spacecombat, I didnt even expect any spacecombat untill they announced it. But now they chose to add it at launch, Im a little disappointed. I rather wouldve seen SW:TOR being shipped without spacecombat and maybe spacecombat later on added as full expansion pack. So that they wouldve had the time to develop something like JTL in SWG. 3D space with several types of ships, each with an interior you can walk around in during spacetravel/combat like the POB's in SWG. Anyway, now that they chose to implement the spacecombat on rails type of game, itll be a missed chance. There is no way that they will turn it into a full 3d space part of the game. So thats why Im a little disappointed.
i understand where you are coming from with saying you would rather they not add it at all. i just think they don't ever intend on implementing extensive space combat or exploration in this game.
IMO i think they added this just for story and immersion purpose alone. people may not be too keen on how the combat is implemented but at least this is telling us (while playing the game) that there is indeed a conflict going on in space and we are apart of it.
i am not saying i am totally satisfied with it either but i am going to reserve judgment until i see i for myself.
but i will say that i am not expecting any kind of sweet action space content, more geared twords RP and story i am sure.
that is what should be expected in my honest opinion. that said, maybe they will make it so you don't have to play the space combat at all if you don't want to?
i think i heard something about that somewhere but cant remember where.
are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
I like some, but not all, of Bioware's games. I am not really upset about the space combat. I just don't like it.
you dont have to like it, or bioware games, or this game for that matter. the reality is, extensive space combat and exploration is an unrealistic expectation for a bioware "KOTOR" stawars game because it isn't consistent with anything they have ever done.
would it have been sweet to add that kind of content on top of the regular story/ ground content? hell yes! but to expect that from them and be upset that it isn't in there?(not saying you are)
i just don't get it. this is a bioware mmo, more importantly this is KOTOR turned into an mmo. they don't need to reinvent the wheel with this game or go out in left field.
they just need to do what they say they are doing and concentrate on what they do best....story telling and rpg.....not space combat, especially at the expense of regular content.
People are allowed not to like how Space Combat is being described in SW:TOR.If they want to judge the game on something that was onyl gonna be 1-5% of the game tha tis also their perrogative.I would agree they came to SW:TOR looking for the wrong sort of game and should perhaps pin thier hopes on Jumpgate to Black Prophecy instead of a nonhybrid MMORPG like SW:TOR was alwatys designed to be,but hey they wanted a Stars Wars themed Freespace 2 but Online(Which would be all kinds of awesome too).
I really think you have two type of people that are dissapointed in how space in TOR is being handled.
First, you have the ex SWG vets, that were pure pilot's in that game and wanted a JTL/space sim along with the ground game and story that will make up TOR. This to me is the most unrealistic and totally offbase way of thinking. There was no way Bioware was gonna build two very indepth games and put them on top of each other. Once space combat was mentioned being in game, you only have yourselves to blame for letting your mind run wild.
Second, there are those that can embrace what Bioware has done and really doesn't mind space is not a sim and are very much looking forward to the highly cinematic dog fights. The only problem they have is that they want to be able to control their ship while in that particular scenario.
I really think you have two type of people that are dissapointed in how space in TOR is being handled.
First, you have the ex SWG vets, that were pure pilot's in that game and wanted a JTL/space sim along with the ground game and story that will make up TOR. This to me is the most unrealistic and totally offbase way of thinking. There was no way Bioware was gonna build two very indepth games and put them on top of each other. Once space was combat was mentioned being in game, you only have yourselves to blame for letting your mind run wild.
Second, there are those that can embrace what Bioware has done and really doesn't mind space is not a sim and are very much looking forward to the highly cinematic dog fights. The only problem they have is that they want to be able to control their ship while in that particular scenario.
I'd say that's a pretty decent analysis of the discussion. Except one part, it seems to be more than just JTL fans that are upset about the first part. Most seem to be more along the lines of X-wing vs Tie, or straight up space sim fans.
I completely agree it's unrealistic to expect basically two games in one. Especially when the budget is already exceeding most other MMO's. A deep expansion down the road? Sure that would be reasonable, on launch day? No way, that's just too much for one studio to handle.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I really think you have two type of people that are dissapointed in how space in TOR is being handled.
First, you have the ex SWG vets, that were pure pilot's in that game and wanted a JTL/space sim along with the ground game and story that will make up TOR. This to me is the most unrealistic and totally offbase way of thinking. There was no way Bioware was gonna build two very indepth games and put them on top of each other. Once space combat was mentioned being in game, you only have yourselves to blame for letting your mind run wild.
Second, there are those that can embrace what Bioware has done and really doesn't mind space is not a sim and are very much looking forward to the highly cinematic dog fights. The only problem they have is that they want to be able to control their ship while in that particular scenario.
You missed a third group, those of us who don't appreciate half-assed features period. It doesn't matter if its a space combat or crafting. People who didn't like half-ass crafting in STO probably don't like half-ass space combat either. This group would rather have seen Bioware take the smart approach, leave it out and put the resources if full fledged ideas.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I really think you have two type of people that are dissapointed in how space in TOR is being handled.
First, you have the ex SWG vets, that were pure pilot's in that game and wanted a JTL/space sim along with the ground game and story that will make up TOR. This to me is the most unrealistic and totally offbase way of thinking. There was no way Bioware was gonna build two very indepth games and put them on top of each other. Once space combat was mentioned being in game, you only have yourselves to blame for letting your mind run wild.
Second, there are those that can embrace what Bioware has done and really doesn't mind space is not a sim and are very much looking forward to the highly cinematic dog fights. The only problem they have is that they want to be able to control their ship while in that particular scenario.
You missed a third group, those of us who don't appreciate half-assed features period. It doesn't matter if its a space combat or crafting. People who didn't like half-ass crafting in STO probably don't like half-ass space combat either. This group would rather have seen Bioware take the smart approach, leave it out and put the resources if full fledged ideas.
Well i can somewhat agree with you because my expectations for space content in TOR was always very low. On the other hand, with them including space from the get go, i will assume that will lead to opening it up much more in an expansion.
I really think you have two type of people that are dissapointed in how space in TOR is being handled.
First, you have the ex SWG vets, that were pure pilot's in that game and wanted a JTL/space sim along with the ground game and story that will make up TOR. This to me is the most unrealistic and totally offbase way of thinking. There was no way Bioware was gonna build two very indepth games and put them on top of each other. Once space combat was mentioned being in game, you only have yourselves to blame for letting your mind run wild.
Second, there are those that can embrace what Bioware has done and really doesn't mind space is not a sim and are very much looking forward to the highly cinematic dog fights. The only problem they have is that they want to be able to control their ship while in that particular scenario.
You missed a third group, those of us who don't appreciate half-assed features period. It doesn't matter if its a space combat or crafting. People who didn't like half-ass crafting in STO probably don't like half-ass space combat either. This group would rather have seen Bioware take the smart approach, leave it out and put the resources if full fledged ideas.
I would say your jumping to conclusions at an alarming rate there.I mean sure the space combat won't freespace 2 or freelancer star wars edition and will be on rails.But it could be the best,most cinematic and enthrallign onr ails shooter since Panzer Dragoon but only in 8 minute or less bites!!!Or you could be right it could be a half assed thrown in last moment piece of crap.
MMO'ers really do want to much out of MMO games. To the poster who said an MMO should be aiming at 2000 hours gameplay content?!? Is this 2000 hours of unique gameplay content or 2000 hours of grind? To fund a game with 2000 hours of unique gameplay content will cost alot more than $150 million and to cover costs the monthly sub will be upped, stopping some from purchasing. Probably also include a cash shop stopping some narrow-minded people from playing.
You are the reason we have all these crap theme park MMO's over the last 5 years , Dev know you have no understanding , low standards and low expectations in life thus your game, to be driven moronicly through a gameing enviroment.
Is why they can live with Initial box sales and first yr sub retention to recoup.
But props to all your kind you win , these days the cluesless far outway the rest.
MMOs have regressed , 10 yrs ago game MMos had it right, was always still room for improvements but it just went all wrong when they realised they was always plenty of morons to sell any old crap too after WoW.
WoW isnt just the biggest MMo ib the world was also the biggest social & economic experiment ever undertaken online and damn did they open the flood gates.
I would say your jumping to conclusions at an alarming rate there.I mean sure the space combat won't freespace 2 or freelancer star wars edition and will be on rails.But it could be the best,most cinematic and enthrallign onr ails shooter since Panzer Dragoon but only in 8 minute or less bites!!!Or you could be right it could be a half assed thrown in last moment piece of crap.
There's no way of knwoing right now.
I suppose some could just hate rail-shooters in genreal. I haven't played many, I really don't know what to expect. I'm not much for piloting to begin with.
The way I look at it is, they added it simply as a mini-game, which could be for now, or always who's to really say at this point? The ships have their own unique uses within the game itself, it's hard to say how they will expand on that spectrum within the game. Maybe TOR will have it's own version of JTL, maybe they won't.
The most important thing right now is they release a stable and deep game. Space can take a back seat to that as far as I'm concerned.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I really think you have two type of people that are dissapointed in how space in TOR is being handled.
First, you have the ex SWG vets, that were pure pilot's in that game and wanted a JTL/space sim along with the ground game and story that will make up TOR. This to me is the most unrealistic and totally offbase way of thinking. There was no way Bioware was gonna build two very indepth games and put them on top of each other. Once space combat was mentioned being in game, you only have yourselves to blame for letting your mind run wild.
Second, there are those that can embrace what Bioware has done and really doesn't mind space is not a sim and are very much looking forward to the highly cinematic dog fights. The only problem they have is that they want to be able to control their ship while in that particular scenario.
You missed a third group, those of us who don't appreciate half-assed features period. It doesn't matter if its a space combat or crafting. People who didn't like half-ass crafting in STO probably don't like half-ass space combat either. This group would rather have seen Bioware take the smart approach, leave it out and put the resources if full fledged ideas.
I would say your jumping to conclusions at an alarming rate there.I mean sure the space combat won't freespace 2 or freelancer star wars edition and will be on rails.But it could be the best,most cinematic and enthrallign onr ails shooter since Panzer Dragoon but only in 8 minute or less bites!!!Or you could be right it could be a half assed thrown in last moment piece of crap.
There's no way of knwoing right now.
A rail system was great when it was the norm. This is a next generation MMORPG, so Bioware is claiming. While I have a certain amount of respect and still enjoy games that use old style systems, I am not interested in what you're suggesting either. I don't play MMORPGs for cinematic movie clips, I play them for the emmersion and to enjoy games with other people. I have no ideas if the the single-player only claims are true, but if they are, I am not happy. I think that's the general way to sum it up, I am not liking what I am hearing. I've not played the game and realize seeing and doing are different. Doesn't change the fact I am not happy with this news and some other news coming out of the bioware camp.
Die-hard fans can block me, sling insults at me, try and spit their venom through their monitors all they want. It doesnt' change the fact that i don't see this as a good sign. Me not seeing this as a good sign, does not mean i think the game is crap. I didn't dismiss STO until after I played it after all. Even then, I realized some people were going to like it and the space combat was kind of fun. It was just a price issue for me in the end, not worth it. I don't know if SWTOR is going to great, medicore, or just another failed new MMO. I just don't like what i am hearing, and I wish they had taken that money and done something else with it even if it just a nice looking rail system they plan to make look nicer down the road... rail is not something I find interesting at all and it seems rushed and half-assed to me, based on what i am hearing of course which is no different than saying it looks great and i am excited, based on what i am seeing from the "other" side making other assumptions.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I really think you have two type of people that are dissapointed in how space in TOR is being handled.
First, you have the ex SWG vets, that were pure pilot's in that game and wanted a JTL/space sim along with the ground game and story that will make up TOR. This to me is the most unrealistic and totally offbase way of thinking. There was no way Bioware was gonna build two very indepth games and put them on top of each other. Once space combat was mentioned being in game, you only have yourselves to blame for letting your mind run wild.
Second, there are those that can embrace what Bioware has done and really doesn't mind space is not a sim and are very much looking forward to the highly cinematic dog fights. The only problem they have is that they want to be able to control their ship while in that particular scenario.
You missed a third group, those of us who don't appreciate half-assed features period. It doesn't matter if its a space combat or crafting. People who didn't like half-ass crafting in STO probably don't like half-ass space combat either. This group would rather have seen Bioware take the smart approach, leave it out and put the resources if full fledged ideas.
I would say your jumping to conclusions at an alarming rate there.I mean sure the space combat won't freespace 2 or freelancer star wars edition and will be on rails.But it could be the best,most cinematic and enthrallign onr ails shooter since Panzer Dragoon but only in 8 minute or less bites!!!Or you could be right it could be a half assed thrown in last moment piece of crap.
There's no way of knwoing right now.
A rail system was great when it was the norm. This is a next generation MMORPG, so Bioware is claiming. While I have a certain amount of respect and still enjoy games that use old style systems, I am not interested in what you're suggesting either. I don't play MMORPGs for cinematic movie clips, I play them for the emmersion and to enjoy games with other people. I have no ideas if the the single-player only claims are true, but if they are, I am not happy. I think that's the general way to sum it up, I am not liking what I am hearing. I've not played the game and realize seeing and doing are different. Doesn't change the fact I am not happy with this news and some other news coming out of the bioware camp.
Die-hard fans can block me, sling insults at me, try and spit their venom through their monitors all they want. It doesnt' change the fact that i don't see this as a good sign. Me not seeing this as a good sign, does not mean i think the game is crap. I didn't dismiss STO until after I played it after all. Even then, I realized some people were going to like it and the space combat was kind of fun. It was just a price issue for me in the end, not worth it. I don't know if SWTOR is going to great, medicore, or just another failed new MMO. I just don't like what i am hearing, and I wish they had taken that money and done something else with it even if it just a nice looking rail system they plan to make look nicer down the road... rail is not something I find interesting at all and it seems rushed and half-assed to me, based on what i am hearing of course which is no different than saying it looks great and i am excited, based on what i am seeing from the "other" side making other assumptions.
I hope your not inculding me in that die hard fan category...I in no way said that it wil be great onyl that it could be or it could be as bad or worse than you fear.I am not jumping on this bandwagon,the GW2 bandwagon or any games wagon of any sort until I have enough facts to make an informed decision.I'm liek this with anything I'm buying...I never become brand loyal ever,also like tha tpolitically I do not pledge undying alleginace to any political party or creedo,I vote(and I do vote) for the party that at the time gels most closely to my needs and leanings.
I hope your not inculding me in that die hard fan category...I in no way said that it wil be great onyl that it could be or it could be as bad or worse than you fear.I am not jumping on this bandwagon,the GW2 bandwagon or any games wagon of any sort until I have enough facts to make an informed decision.I'm liek this with anything I'm buying...I never become brand loyal ever,also like tha tpolitically I do not pledge undying alleginace to any political party or creedo,I vote(and I do vote) for the party that at the time gels most closely to my needs and leanings.
No I am not. I want that clear. That statement was not addressed at you at all.
As far as I know, you haven't flung around insults at people who disagree with you, blocked people who disagree with or foamed at the mouth because someone continues to challenge your assumptions. I also don't classify die-hard fans with fanbois. Fanbois have nothing to add to the table. Die-hard fans often have perfectly valid assumptions/arguments, it just comes off a little strong and often insulting, but doesnt invalidate concerns and arguments necessarily. In either case, I am not classifying you with either group.
I think your two group approach was very insightful and probably covers most people. I just thought I would need to be in a sort of different group in that i had no real leaning in regards to space combat at all. I wasn't expecting it, hadn't seen any videos on it, so really wasn't thinking about it at all until i heard about this rail system which just sounds so... half-assed to me. It's really the only way i can describe my feeing on the manner. Just why, why would they take this approach that feels decades old?
I do think my assumptions are more negative than your assumptions and some others. We're all using assumptions though, because as far as I know the NDA is not lifted and it sounds like its not even in the beta yet, mabye so most people are making assumptions based on what we're being told. There is nothing wrong with assuming the best or worst really, we're all going to find out how it works in the end. I am just disappointed that SWTOR is going further and further down on the list of games i feel I want to play.
I've also done this hype, beta, up to release things often enough to know that something could happen tomorrow that could change all that. I am just voicing how i feel at this moment, and rarely cement myself into a position i am unwilling to change from.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
No I am not. I want that clear. That statement was not addressed at you at all.
As far as I know, you haven't flung around insults at people who disagree with you, blocked people who disagree with or foamed at the mouth because someone continues to challenge your assumptions. I also don't classify die-hard fans with fanbois. Fanbois have nothing to add to the table. Die-hard fans often have perfectly valid assumptions/arguments, it just comes off a little strong and often insulting, but doesnt invalidate concerns and arguments necessarily. In either case, I am not classifying you with either group.
I think your two group approach was very insightful and probably covers most people. I just thought I would need to be in a sort of different group in that i had no real leaning in regards to space combat at all. I wasn't expecting it, hadn't seen any videos on it, so really wasn't thinking about it at all until i heard about this rail system which just sounds so... half-assed to me. It's really the only way i can describe my feeing on the manner. Just why, why would they take this approach that feels decades old?
I do think my assumptions are more negative than your assumptions and some others. We're all using assumptions though, because as far as I know the NDA is not lifted and it sounds like its not even in the beta yet, mabye so most people are making assumptions based on what we're being told. There is nothing wrong with assuming the best or worst really, we're all going to find out how it works in the end. I am just disappointed that SWTOR is going further and further down on the list of games i feel I want to play.
I've also done this hype, beta, up to release things often enough to know that something could happen tomorrow that could change all that. I am just voicing how i feel at this moment, and rarely cement myself into a position i am unwilling to change from.
I agree with all that and that your assumptions are as valid as mine or anyone's at this stage given the alck of hard information.I tend to beleive however that things tend to land somewhere between the best dn worst case scenario...we jsut have to wait and see which it ends up closer to.
I agree with all that and that your assumptions are as valid as mine or anyone's at this stage given the alck of hard information.I tend to beleive however that things tend to land somewhere between the best dn worst case scenario...we jsut have to wait and see which it ends up closer to.
Well if it means anything, I hope I am wrong. I really have no reason to want this game to be less than the best effort from Bioware. A lot of Star Trek fans got let down with STO (not all), but there is no reason why Star Wars shouldn't do a better showing. I actually like some of Bioware games (not all), so I have no issues really against the company. Rhe Mass Effect 2 mini-game was terrible though, just terrible.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Didnt expect more from Bio regarding space. im still hoping i'll see a reall Star Wars mmorpg in my lifetime heh. SWG had potential, but was broken as hell. TOR looks polished, but lacks anything that would resemble a true mmorpg.
So heres hoping for Star Wars Online, coming summer 2020
are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
I've been a fan of Bioware since Baldur's Gate. But even so, I felt from the get-go that they wouldn't do the IP justice, at least not from my perspective. I'm an old-timer, but I wasn't in 1977 when Star Wars was released. The first trilogy made a huge impression on me and I have a very defined sense of exactly what the idea of Star Wars means. It's not a concept that I share with many, but I'm willing to guess that those with whom I do have it in common also tend to be on the older end of the scale.
That being said, I only feel compelled to comment since the concept of space combat they are introducing is so ludicrous, that it invites derision. Truly, they would be better to go without than to include something so ridiculous. The whole on-rails thing is counter to the concept of space combat that was introduced with Star Wars, again, in my opinion. I'm sure that they will be able to put together a fine game when it comes to various other aspects, but it seems idiotic to me to even bother with including what appears to amount to little more than sideshow gameplay.
I don't really blame Bioware for not building a game that would live up to my expectations since I fully admit, my expectations are sky high. In fact, I don't see any developer out there who could pull it off. Even Lucas couldn't reproduce the magic when he created the second trilogy. But "on-rails"? Seriously? A developer with Bioware's pedigree should know better.
I sincerely hope all of you who choose to play it, find it a good experience. It's just not for me -- not because of the space combat system, but because I'm confident it won't be able to live up to the experience of sitting down in front of the TV, making some popcorn, and watching the actual films again. The originals, by the way, not the remade blasphemies. Anyone who knows that Han actually shot first, knows exactly what I'm talking about.
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Which I know is meaningless to most of us. My only concern with space combat is them biting off more than they can chew. If I thought it wouldn't interfere with other parts of development I'd have no complaint about the complaints, I'd be silent on the issue.
I think people waited far to long to bring this issue up as loudly as they're voicing it now. AS it's a little to late to do much about it, at least to the scope people seem to want.
The only other issue of interest to me on this subject is what they plan to do about it. Scrap it? Change it? Focus more resource to it? Nothing? Will be interesting to see.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'll say it again bro... SWG when it came out in '03 was mercilessly ripped apart in reviews for not having a proper space game.
SWG had nothing when it came out, so bad example IMO. I say that semi jokingly. As it had plenty we just had to walk everywhere, lol. SWG literally had no trasportation for quite a while, anyone else walk to jabba's from eisley the second they hit ground?
I must say, on my server (bloodfin) space was never exactly jumping with activity from what I remember, not many seemed to enjoy it all that much in my guild I know that much.
And a rail / tunnel shooter in an MMORPG? Are you serious? This isn't a single player RPG like KOTOR1.
Well I didn't say yippee it's a rail shooter, Ima sold on dis un. I really don't dig flying around in space, that's where the seems fine to me part came from, if it's fun of course I might enjoy it. But a space sim I'd definitely not enjoy.
To be honest I think it's going to be a single player like MMO, and more and more with every new bit of information. WHich will be fine as long as it's updated regularly IMO.
There's a link in the other space related thread in this forum with the US PC Gamer article on the subject. Even the author, already at this point in time with access to the exclusive info, is already questioning why BioWare is going with such a simplistic, overly "safe" route. He agreed that including space combat in SWTOR is a great idea to avoid one of the major hits SWG had on release. But the method of how BioWare is implementing space is "too safe."
That's obvious, they need 1-2 mil to be successful, they're playing it safe for that reason alone.
Which I know is meaningless to most of us. My only concern with space combat is them biting off more than they can chew. If I thought it wouldn't interfere with other parts of development I'd have no complaint about the complaints, I'd be silent on the issue.
I think people waited far to long to bring this issue up as loudly as they're voicing it now. AS it's a little to late to do much about it, at least to the scope people seem to want.
The only other issue of interest to me on this subject is what they plan to do about it. Scrap it? Change it? Focus more resource to it? Nothing? Will be interesting to see.
^^^^ this!I am worried that bioware is going to be forced to work on this, and then every major facet of the core game will be cut short and/or ruined because of the narrow-sighted whiners who can't see one expansion pack into the future... yeah... we're gonna end up with rogue squadron 4 instead of kotor 3
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If they weren't going to put any real effort into this part of the game, they should have left it out until they could do so. Your insults are not necessary, but then again, some of these die-hard fans can't seem to do much more than stomp their feet and run away with their fingers in their ears.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I dont think its without effort. Its just not a huge part of the game. Right now maybe u have 2 -3 quest that require space combat. Sure in the original 3 movies space combat was a part of it . But even then most of the movies were ground based. Or space station based. My understanding is there will be group instances or group quests in swtor so isnt gonna be just a single player mmo. U will have player housing to invite freinds over.
i guess i dont understand why people think its gonna be solely a single player mmo. I havent seen much if anything on how they will handle end game. Or max level. If they will have raids or what they are gonna do. Pvp will be a part of swtor we know. Mostly looks like an instance type of pvp more hten world pvp but tht will depned on if they have pvp servers or not. Another thing we dont know.
I just dont think space combat on rails is a big deal right now. I personally cant wait to play a sith warrior or jedi consular . Im more interested in the force classes because ina ll the star wars stuff thats what interests me . If in the future they had a fighter pilot class then worry about how they handle space combat is my point i guess. Till then space combat on rails doesnt bother me . Im gonna test it out and give it a few months before i decide if i like it or not though. cause im a huge star wars fan and a star wars mmo just makes me geek out.
If they weren't going to put any real effort into this part of the game, they should have left it out until they could do so. Your insults are not necessary, but then again, some of these die-hard fans can't seem to do much more than stomp their feet and run away with their fingers in their ears.
maybe they don't ever intend to put extensive space combat or space exploration in the game? after all, none of their space games have ever had that kind of content.
i think with the info they have released, the space content they do have is mainly for story and immersion.
they don't need to have extensive space content to have a successful starwars game, its been tested and proven.
and no, just because it is an mmo does not make that fact any different as long as they have enough regular content, which they have claimed they do so we will see.
some people are upset by this and if they are a fan of KOTOR and bioware games in general, i really don't understand why.
actually, yes i do....its this forum and the way its always been. people crying because they don't get the game they want with unrealistic expectations only to be let down once again.
or its just a pointless "haters" vs "fanboi" flame war.
which is why until recently, i have steered clear from posting here.
you dont have to like it, or bioware games, or this game for that matter. the reality is, extensive space combat and exploration is an unrealistic expectation for a bioware "KOTOR" stawars game because it isn't consistent with anything they have ever done.
would it have been sweet to add that kind of content on top of the regular story/ ground content? hell yes! but to expect that from them and be upset that it isn't in there?(not saying you are)
i just don't get it. this is a bioware mmo, more importantly this is KOTOR turned into an mmo. they don't need to reinvent the wheel with this game or go out in left field.
they just need to do what they say they are doing and concentrate on what they do best....story telling and rpg.....not space combat, especially at the expense of regular content.
But now they chose to add it at launch, Im a little disappointed. I rather wouldve seen SW:TOR being shipped without spacecombat and maybe spacecombat later on added as full expansion pack. So that they wouldve had the time to develop something like JTL in SWG. 3D space with several types of ships, each with an interior you can walk around in during spacetravel/combat like the POB's in SWG.
Anyway, now that they chose to implement the spacecombat on rails type of game, itll be a missed chance. There is no way that they will turn it into a full 3d space part of the game. So thats why Im a little disappointed.
i understand where you are coming from with saying you would rather they not add it at all. i just think they don't ever intend on implementing extensive space combat or exploration in this game.
IMO i think they added this just for story and immersion purpose alone. people may not be too keen on how the combat is implemented but at least this is telling us (while playing the game) that there is indeed a conflict going on in space and we are apart of it.
i am not saying i am totally satisfied with it either but i am going to reserve judgment until i see i for myself.
but i will say that i am not expecting any kind of sweet action space content, more geared twords RP and story i am sure.
that is what should be expected in my honest opinion. that said, maybe they will make it so you don't have to play the space combat at all if you don't want to?
i think i heard something about that somewhere but cant remember where.
People are allowed not to like how Space Combat is being described in SW:TOR.If they want to judge the game on something that was onyl gonna be 1-5% of the game tha tis also their perrogative.I would agree they came to SW:TOR looking for the wrong sort of game and should perhaps pin thier hopes on Jumpgate to Black Prophecy instead of a nonhybrid MMORPG like SW:TOR was alwatys designed to be,but hey they wanted a Stars Wars themed Freespace 2 but Online(Which would be all kinds of awesome too).
I really think you have two type of people that are dissapointed in how space in TOR is being handled.
First, you have the ex SWG vets, that were pure pilot's in that game and wanted a JTL/space sim along with the ground game and story that will make up TOR. This to me is the most unrealistic and totally offbase way of thinking. There was no way Bioware was gonna build two very indepth games and put them on top of each other. Once space combat was mentioned being in game, you only have yourselves to blame for letting your mind run wild.
Second, there are those that can embrace what Bioware has done and really doesn't mind space is not a sim and are very much looking forward to the highly cinematic dog fights. The only problem they have is that they want to be able to control their ship while in that particular scenario.
I'd say that's a pretty decent analysis of the discussion. Except one part, it seems to be more than just JTL fans that are upset about the first part. Most seem to be more along the lines of X-wing vs Tie, or straight up space sim fans.
I completely agree it's unrealistic to expect basically two games in one. Especially when the budget is already exceeding most other MMO's. A deep expansion down the road? Sure that would be reasonable, on launch day? No way, that's just too much for one studio to handle.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You missed a third group, those of us who don't appreciate half-assed features period. It doesn't matter if its a space combat or crafting. People who didn't like half-ass crafting in STO probably don't like half-ass space combat either. This group would rather have seen Bioware take the smart approach, leave it out and put the resources if full fledged ideas.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Well i can somewhat agree with you because my expectations for space content in TOR was always very low. On the other hand, with them including space from the get go, i will assume that will lead to opening it up much more in an expansion.
I would say your jumping to conclusions at an alarming rate there.I mean sure the space combat won't freespace 2 or freelancer star wars edition and will be on rails.But it could be the best,most cinematic and enthrallign onr ails shooter since Panzer Dragoon but only in 8 minute or less bites!!!Or you could be right it could be a half assed thrown in last moment piece of crap.
There's no way of knwoing right now.
You are the reason we have all these crap theme park MMO's over the last 5 years , Dev know you have no understanding , low standards and low expectations in life thus your game, to be driven moronicly through a gameing enviroment.
Is why they can live with Initial box sales and first yr sub retention to recoup.
But props to all your kind you win , these days the cluesless far outway the rest.
MMOs have regressed , 10 yrs ago game MMos had it right, was always still room for improvements but it just went all wrong when they realised they was always plenty of morons to sell any old crap too after WoW.
WoW isnt just the biggest MMo ib the world was also the biggest social & economic experiment ever undertaken online and damn did they open the flood gates.
I suppose some could just hate rail-shooters in genreal. I haven't played many, I really don't know what to expect. I'm not much for piloting to begin with.
The way I look at it is, they added it simply as a mini-game, which could be for now, or always who's to really say at this point? The ships have their own unique uses within the game itself, it's hard to say how they will expand on that spectrum within the game. Maybe TOR will have it's own version of JTL, maybe they won't.
The most important thing right now is they release a stable and deep game. Space can take a back seat to that as far as I'm concerned.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A rail system was great when it was the norm. This is a next generation MMORPG, so Bioware is claiming. While I have a certain amount of respect and still enjoy games that use old style systems, I am not interested in what you're suggesting either. I don't play MMORPGs for cinematic movie clips, I play them for the emmersion and to enjoy games with other people. I have no ideas if the the single-player only claims are true, but if they are, I am not happy. I think that's the general way to sum it up, I am not liking what I am hearing. I've not played the game and realize seeing and doing are different. Doesn't change the fact I am not happy with this news and some other news coming out of the bioware camp.
Die-hard fans can block me, sling insults at me, try and spit their venom through their monitors all they want. It doesnt' change the fact that i don't see this as a good sign. Me not seeing this as a good sign, does not mean i think the game is crap. I didn't dismiss STO until after I played it after all. Even then, I realized some people were going to like it and the space combat was kind of fun. It was just a price issue for me in the end, not worth it. I don't know if SWTOR is going to great, medicore, or just another failed new MMO. I just don't like what i am hearing, and I wish they had taken that money and done something else with it even if it just a nice looking rail system they plan to make look nicer down the road... rail is not something I find interesting at all and it seems rushed and half-assed to me, based on what i am hearing of course which is no different than saying it looks great and i am excited, based on what i am seeing from the "other" side making other assumptions.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I hope your not inculding me in that die hard fan category...I in no way said that it wil be great onyl that it could be or it could be as bad or worse than you fear.I am not jumping on this bandwagon,the GW2 bandwagon or any games wagon of any sort until I have enough facts to make an informed decision.I'm liek this with anything I'm buying...I never become brand loyal ever,also like tha tpolitically I do not pledge undying alleginace to any political party or creedo,I vote(and I do vote) for the party that at the time gels most closely to my needs and leanings.
I expect the Space Flight to be skipable. Everything else would just be ridiculous. Just leave it out or do it right.
I didn't play it back in 1993 when Rebel Assault was released and I won't play it now.
No I am not. I want that clear. That statement was not addressed at you at all.
As far as I know, you haven't flung around insults at people who disagree with you, blocked people who disagree with or foamed at the mouth because someone continues to challenge your assumptions. I also don't classify die-hard fans with fanbois. Fanbois have nothing to add to the table. Die-hard fans often have perfectly valid assumptions/arguments, it just comes off a little strong and often insulting, but doesnt invalidate concerns and arguments necessarily. In either case, I am not classifying you with either group.
I think your two group approach was very insightful and probably covers most people. I just thought I would need to be in a sort of different group in that i had no real leaning in regards to space combat at all. I wasn't expecting it, hadn't seen any videos on it, so really wasn't thinking about it at all until i heard about this rail system which just sounds so... half-assed to me. It's really the only way i can describe my feeing on the manner. Just why, why would they take this approach that feels decades old?
I do think my assumptions are more negative than your assumptions and some others. We're all using assumptions though, because as far as I know the NDA is not lifted and it sounds like its not even in the beta yet, mabye so most people are making assumptions based on what we're being told. There is nothing wrong with assuming the best or worst really, we're all going to find out how it works in the end. I am just disappointed that SWTOR is going further and further down on the list of games i feel I want to play.
I've also done this hype, beta, up to release things often enough to know that something could happen tomorrow that could change all that. I am just voicing how i feel at this moment, and rarely cement myself into a position i am unwilling to change from.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I agree with all that and that your assumptions are as valid as mine or anyone's at this stage given the alck of hard information.I tend to beleive however that things tend to land somewhere between the best dn worst case scenario...we jsut have to wait and see which it ends up closer to.
Well if it means anything, I hope I am wrong. I really have no reason to want this game to be less than the best effort from Bioware. A lot of Star Trek fans got let down with STO (not all), but there is no reason why Star Wars shouldn't do a better showing. I actually like some of Bioware games (not all), so I have no issues really against the company. Rhe Mass Effect 2 mini-game was terrible though, just terrible.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Didnt expect more from Bio regarding space. im still hoping i'll see a reall Star Wars mmorpg in my lifetime heh. SWG had potential, but was broken as hell. TOR looks polished, but lacks anything that would resemble a true mmorpg.
So heres hoping for Star Wars Online, coming summer 2020
i could care less if theres space or not. im going to play this game so damn hard, my computer is going to melt.
I've been a fan of Bioware since Baldur's Gate. But even so, I felt from the get-go that they wouldn't do the IP justice, at least not from my perspective. I'm an old-timer, but I wasn't in 1977 when Star Wars was released. The first trilogy made a huge impression on me and I have a very defined sense of exactly what the idea of Star Wars means. It's not a concept that I share with many, but I'm willing to guess that those with whom I do have it in common also tend to be on the older end of the scale.
That being said, I only feel compelled to comment since the concept of space combat they are introducing is so ludicrous, that it invites derision. Truly, they would be better to go without than to include something so ridiculous. The whole on-rails thing is counter to the concept of space combat that was introduced with Star Wars, again, in my opinion. I'm sure that they will be able to put together a fine game when it comes to various other aspects, but it seems idiotic to me to even bother with including what appears to amount to little more than sideshow gameplay.
I don't really blame Bioware for not building a game that would live up to my expectations since I fully admit, my expectations are sky high. In fact, I don't see any developer out there who could pull it off. Even Lucas couldn't reproduce the magic when he created the second trilogy. But "on-rails"? Seriously? A developer with Bioware's pedigree should know better.
I sincerely hope all of you who choose to play it, find it a good experience. It's just not for me -- not because of the space combat system, but because I'm confident it won't be able to live up to the experience of sitting down in front of the TV, making some popcorn, and watching the actual films again. The originals, by the way, not the remade blasphemies. Anyone who knows that Han actually shot first, knows exactly what I'm talking about.