Just because games look similar doesn't necessarily mean there's lacking of creativity.
That's just not a fair statement.
Technology is a big hurdle when it comes to innovation or implementing game contents. Without the most advance engines out there, your game can only do so much, and by using the latest engine, your game practically be doing similar things as other games using the same engine.
Besides, what game designer ignorant about being creative? Sometimes publishers will only want you to draw something using wood and coal...then someone like you accuses the developers of not being creative.
Its funny how she advises those talented artists to visit a zoo when they need inspiration for new monsters. So they can see how a bear moves etc. Is it just me, or is that quite condescending attitude coming from some blogger?
She didn't mention artists at all. She's talking about designers. In MMO development, designers decide what monsters will exist in the world, and THEN artists do concepts.
The article advocates broadening your personal horizons if you have a creative design role. Trying new things to inspire new ideas. Trying new things sounds like a good idea to me.
The lack of reading comprehension on these forums, as usual, is astonishing.
Reading -5
Woah there Sir rides a big horse. If you'd kindly dismount you'd easily realize that this isn't the Wallstreet Journal.
No one has heard the saying "Everything that can be invented has been invented." - By Charles H Duell
What I am saying is it is hard to come up with something new and creative with out it just being the same thing or slightly improved version of something else. People today think something is "innovated" when in reality it just hasn't been seen in awhile.
Here is a great example. Trix cereal awhile back wen back to be completely spheres and they claimed it to be "new shape" when I remember at a younger age Trix was originally spheres and when they change the shape of the cereal to "fruit" shapes.
When you ask for innovation and creativity, you need to look at players an what they want first.
I disagree. Players don't really know what they want until they get it. If you gave everybody what they they wanted, then everyone would be both indestructible and able to kill with a glance, thus creating a paradox and exploding servers, computers and skulls.
Anyway, I see the lack of creativity as being something to do with an American obssession with literalism, which is really really un-fun in fantasy, which is supposed to be the place where crazy innovations can reign. What a disaster its been!
I believe your lecture article is a bit pretentious and does nothing but feed the idea that there is no work involved even in the creation of "clone" titles. The point you make and advice are low hanging fruit anyone here could have written and, believe it or not, are already standard practice in most development houses. You ignore all the talent experience and skill that goes into the art, design and coding of them, even if they are based of contemporary titles.
Lastly, you seem to completely ignore the fact that most titles do not innovate because players do not want innovation. Sure, some here may say “I want innovation” yet will be the very first to complain that new game “B” does not have feature “X” of title “C” that has been out for a decade.
Proof that the majority (MMORPG.com is not the majority) do not necessarily want innovation or creativity is the simply fact that the most successful titles are slight improvement on predecessors, not radical advancements.
Case in point, when Turbine redefined the GUI for MMO’s with AC2, very few MMO’s to this day do NOT use it, even the ones that are bran new use it. Why? Its one part refinement, its also one part adaptable and comfortable by players and the expectance that a MMO GUI be counterparty in looks, use and function.
When you ask for innovation and creativity, you need to look at players an what they want first.
Currently, what they want is more DIKU clones. They want recognizable orcs elves and mages. They want to kill 10 rats.
I disagree. I want more features, I don't care how many rats you make me kill, I won't enjoy that game. Why? Because killing 10 rats is doing the same thing over and over, if I wanted to do that I could go do something in real life for half the price or even free.
Orcs Elves Mages? I don't care about any of those. Quite frankly they all can go to hell with WoW wrapped up in a nice basket. We want FEATURES in our games. The ability to custom design a house in a full 3D world as part of a larger city designed my a king (player). The ability to build and sail ships ON DECK with the crew. Big wars with 400+ NPC's and players.
When I hit someone with a sword, I want them to bleed, not count off HP numbers based on their DEX and CON and AC. Why should I be forced to play what games you spit out if I don't even like the games they're based on?
So how DARE you tell me what I want. Who do you think you are? I am a man with a life and a family. I don't want to sit on this PC and pay for something that you slopped together because you didn't feel like hiring a better programmer.
Unlike most customers (yes we are CUSTOMERS NOT GAMERS), I actually have led development teams (please notice the "s"). I know what it's like trying to manage a dev team and achieve something new and I've had to do it WITH NO PAY.
So the bottom line is: NO I will not play your clone. NO I will not pay your salary until I see something FUN. I'm not in a coccoon I can THINK for myself. you're not my God or my father so sit down and shut up.
I find it odd a few posters decided to take my post personal. Especially when I posted about some people wanting "X" from game "B" ETC....
The market has shown that the more successful games are those that use small advancements, not radical changes. It has zero to do with an individual. If you truly wanted creative titles, you would be supporting them, but you are not. Look around. Even the op does not see any games outside of the big 5 houses as anything that counts.
I did not tell anyone what they wanted, I simply pointed out what gamers support, you can sit here all day long and say you want creativity, unique features, but you do not support the games that already have them, so why would anyone invest in such a thing, reality is, the market doesn’t want them.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I disagree. I want more features, I don't care how many rats you make me kill, I won't enjoy that game. Why? Because killing 10 rats is doing the same thing over and over, if I wanted to do that I could go do something in real life for half the price or even free.
Orcs Elves Mages? I don't care about any of those. Quite frankly they all can go to hell with WoW wrapped up in a nice basket. We want FEATURES in our games. The ability to custom design a house in a full 3D world as part of a larger city designed my a king (player). The ability to build and sail ships ON DECK with the crew. Big wars with 400+ NPC's and players.
When I hit someone with a sword, I want them to bleed, not count off HP numbers based on their DEX and CON and AC. Why should I be forced to play what games you spit out if I don't even like the games they're based on?
So how DARE you tell me what I want. Who do you think you are? I am a man with a life and a family. I don't want to sit on this PC and pay for something that you slopped together because you didn't feel like hiring a better programmer.
Unlike most customers (yes we are CUSTOMERS NOT GAMERS), I actually have led development teams (please notice the "s"). I know what it's like trying to manage a dev team and achieve something new and I've had to do it WITH NO PAY.
So the bottom line is: NO I will not play your clone. NO I will not pay your salary until I see something FUN. I'm not in a coccoon I can THINK for myself. you're not my God or my father so sit down and shut up.
You missed the entire point, but decided it was all about you anyway.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I find it odd a few posters decided to take my post personal. Especially when I posted about some people wanting "X" from game "B" ETC....
The market has shown that the more successful games are those that use small advancements, not radical changes. It has zero to do with an individual. If you truly wanted creative titles, you would be supporting them, but you are not. Look around. Even the op does not see any games outside of the big 5 houses as anything that counts.
I did not tell anyone what they wanted, I simply pointed out what gamers support, you can sit here all day long and say you want creativity, unique features, but you do not support the games that already have them, so why would anyone invest in such a thing, reality is, the market doesn’t want them.
Bloodworth,
Is it the "market" determining that such titles are not popular or the fact that they can't secure enough funding to access that market, get exposure and get a fair trial?
A movie may be immensely well made, but if it never gets advertised 99% of the people out there will go see the same old dreck churned out by the big producers. Why? not neccesarly because they prefer the dreck to the quality film....but because they never even knew of the quality films existance in the first place to give it a try.
Of the games on your list, I subb'd to WWII Online for quite some Time, enjoyed it immensely, was probably mt 2nd favorate Online Game. Would probably still be subb'ed to it if my time and cash were more plentifull these days.
I tried DawnTide, liked the flavor of it....but it was basicaly Alpha/Pre-Alpha at that stage (despite the fact it was labeled Beta). If they had the cash to invest in the resources to get it up and running (as well as advertise). I'm sure it would do very decently.
Kind of funny, talking about creativity here and another thread on this site is asking about Everquest Next. The first thing that popped into my head was why bother? The third iteration of that game is only going to attract a few fans and that is about it. Besides, most of the creative people at SOE left a long time ago. A better graphics engine will not improve the game much.
I think too many people confuse eye popping graphics with creativity when it really has little to do with it.
Funny one of the more creative MMO's in my book was AC1. Sad when we have to look back on an older game and say that it had far more creativity in it than any game since. Even AC2 was better than most of crap on the ether today. But Bloodworth was right in that case, one of the reasons AC2 failed because it was very different from it's predecessor.
I guess we just have to hope we get an indie game that is willing to start small with an innovative product and build on it, like CCP did with Eve. The major studios certainly don't seem willing to take a chance on it.
Kind of funny, talking about creativity here and another thread on this site is asking about Everquest Next. The first thing that popped into my head was why bother? The third iteration of that game is only going to attract a few fans and that is about it. Besides, most of the creative people at SOE left a long time ago. A better graphics engine will not improve the game much.
I think too many people confuse eye popping graphics with creativity when it really has little to do with it.
Funny one of the more creative MMO's in my book was AC1. Sad when we have to look back on an older game and say that it had far more creativity in it than any game since. Even AC2 was better than most of crap on the ether today. But Bloodworth was right in that case, one of the reasons AC2 failed because it was very different from it's predecessor.
I guess we just have to hope we get an indie game that is willing to start small with an innovative product and build on it, like CCP did with Eve. The major studios certainly don't seem willing to take a chance on it.
SOE havn't been creative in a long time, that is true. EQ next will probably be a polished up Vanguard set in Norrath.
But not all creative people are indie devs. Arenanets GW2 and CCPs World of darkness online both seems very creative and they are both too large nowadays to be called indie studios.
Sure, the largest companies seems to wait for other people to get ideas and then steal them but there are a few medium sized companies out there that is trying something new.
And while Bioware is a huge company I wouldn't call making TOR a MMO creative but at least they are copying themselves so it is at least better than most other right now.
Creativity is lost in modern MMOs. It was actually lost when WoW became a huge success and devs realised that they can make big bucks, not by being creative or innovative, but rather take a simple formula and rehash it over and over again.
Companies like Cryptic are an excellent example of that. And what is left are obscure companies like StarVault and Adventurine that has neither the resources nor the talent to develop a decent game.
Lol you say that but its not true Darkfall is a very good game infact.
That majority dont like open free roaming free for all pvp games with full loot and no hold hands no instance no epix no BG/Arena thats not Aventurines fault.
They have alot of talent world is great looking it have alot potential we now only need players that have same mindset.
99% want ez-mode casual hold hand from a-z and alot fluff and thats what Darkfall is not about thats not fault devs thats fault of mmo gamers who rather play themeparks or sandbox without risk.
Its clear that mmo world dont want games that are not clones of EQ- WoW- L2 or GW.
Plenty of creative devs around but they just dont get a chance.
Conclusion majority mmo players dont realy want innovation or out of box they want constant same thats why bioware will be a WoW with lightsabers.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
As an MMO Systems Designer I have to say I agree with your ideas.
Life is the best reference as its the ultimate MMO.
I think that the problem with many MMOs and really most computer RPGs is that they are built on top of Pen and Paper systems. As a result mmo systems, based on randomness and dps, tend to be 1 dimensional rather than providing an open-ended experience the way a game like chess does.
While playing games does benefit a designer (especially games outside the genera they create games in) I think designers should expand in other areas as well. Learning to code, or how to make 3d art would help them interface better with other teams. Going to an amusement park may give them a great idea for their next dungeon. A walk through the woods may give them ideas on how creatures in their game should interact ect... What better reference for a game world then the best one ever created (that we know of).
To add to your thoughts I would sall that all the creativity in the world will not benefit a designer's game if there management is not open minded to new ideas. One of the worst things about the industry is that often those in charge of a project are not designers, or even gamers and many times a good creative idea will get stifled. We can only hope that the people in charge of a project are keeping their minds open and taking walks in the woods as well.
I agree with you Mrbloodworth, for the most of what you typed in the first comment. however I have noticed that in the video game industry, the word "innovation" offten has it's meaning confused with that of "Gimmick". I think you may be making this misteak as well (no offence)
Also even if you did not make that misteak (wich I'm pretty sure Angie made), your comment fails to take into consideration another thing I noticed. Innovation can take two paths, the right way, and the wrong way. An exaple of the "right way" could be how most console multiplayer is now online. An example of the "wrong way" could be how most games now lack "game overs" thus taking away the majority of fear and motivation, that once caused players to strive to improve.
I find it odd a few posters decided to take my post personal. Especially when I posted about some people wanting "X" from game "B" ETC....
The market has shown that the more successful games are those that use small advancements, not radical changes. It has zero to do with an individual. If you truly wanted creative titles, you would be supporting them, but you are not. Look around. Even the op does not see any games outside of the big 5 houses as anything that counts.
I did not tell anyone what they wanted, I simply pointed out what gamers support, you can sit here all day long and say you want creativity, unique features, but you do not support the games that already have them, so why would anyone invest in such a thing, reality is, the market doesn’t want them.
Exactly. Players do not want the innovation. It's nothing but a button to push to make themselves feel 'edgy'. Players themselves do not want more innovation, they see no reason to learn multiple systems to play. It is much easier to learn one and jump from game to game.
I find it amusing how people always attack capitalism for the world's problems. I'm sorry, but if capitalism did not exist, Warcraft would have never made it to an MMO, let alone three expansions. If it weren't for capitalism...monetary gain as a reward for hard work and producing a product or service people WANT to pay for...technological advancement in the computer/gaming industry would not be nearly at where it is today. If it weren't for rich tycoons willing to put down millions of dollars to develop games for YOU to enjoy and play IF YOU WANT TO AND THINK IT'S WORTH YOUR TIME AND MONEY TO INVEST IN IT...Then there would be far less...And far worse than there is today.
Humans don't 'Inovate'. We evolve. We build upon the ideas that precede us and make them better. We go from steam engines to cumbustion engines to nuclear power and solar power that is actually worth using. We go from playing Kings Quest I (as an example of what the IBM 382 could do) with CGI graphics and 8MB ram to Quad Core 8gig ram powerhouses that give us WoW and Diablo 1, 2 and 3 and all sorts of great games. None of this would have happened if there was no gain to be had out of it. A free, open market where people are rewarded for their efforts by way of other people trading in monetary value for a product or service is what drives this and any other industry. When a business fails at producing or creating something that people want to pay money for, they fail...As they should. They put in the risk, they get the reward. No one is forcing you to pay to play anything, you're chosing to do that on your own, along with everyone else. There are two types of greedy and selfish people in the world. One are those who want to be successful and rich and live a well privilaged life, the other involves people who want everything handed to them, and would rather put the blame of how horrible their lives and/or problems are on those that work hard to be successful. People who cry about greedy businesses swindling the masses with bad games are the later; Greedy, selfish, self important nobodies who think they are owed everything and are owed it NOW (footstomp)!
As for me, I'm crossing my fingers for Guild Wars 2...That looks inovative to me. As for MMO's...They pretty much are all the same when you get down to it...And I haven't even bothered with WoW for a while. Grinding and doing the same thing over and over again just isn't fun to me. I'm also interested in seeing how the EVE folks are going to deal with the World of Darkness.
As a player I absolutely agree with basic thesis of this article -- that creativity seems to be a lost cause in mainstream MMOs nowadays. I'm not sure about her solution but she has a point about the lack of creativity. This is not exactly news of course.
Unfortunately, as a developer, I also see the point of the people who say that the problem is with the suits. And to be honest, the suits may have justification. If you're going to spend tens of millions of dollars on a game, it has GOT to make that money back. It's easy to be creative if there's no big risk, but budgets have grown so much that there's huge risk so you have to play it safe.
It isn't just in MMOs although MMOs seem to have the disease very bad. Movies and TV series also tend to avoid doing anything risky. They're a bit more risk taking then MMOs but there's definately a tendency. Anytime big bucks are involved, people have a natural tendency to play it safe and for good reason. I suspect that if you blow $20 mil, your career is going to take a nosedive.
When you clone something, you KNOW it works. If you try something new you don't know. You have to think everything through from the ground up and one mistake can doom the product.
So in the end, the success of MMOs which allowed their huge budgets may doom the industry by making truly creative games too risky.
Perhaps the only real hope for creative MMOs is in low budget creations. Something's needed though. Because right now my interest in ALL MMOs is headed down the toilet with all these clones. If things keep going the way they are, the MMO industry could strangle on its own success.
A lot of good points in these replies, but I think the most important one is this: when MMO's first came onto the scene, they were the minnows (don't remember who said it). Even though Everquest was fairly successful and well-known in the media especially, developers and designers still had a massive amount of creative license because nobody upstairs saw the MMO industry as a cash cow. It was a niche market, and the cheapest thing to do was let the designers do their own thing.
When WoW came along as a fully-polished, relatively casual MMORPG that appealed to the mainstream through pop culture references in the dialogue, a shallow learning curve, much faster leveling than was the norm at the time, and an established IP from a trusted name in PC gaming, it at once revolutionized and stagnated the industry. Blizzard became rich, and the other technology big-shots took notice and said "We want to be like them." By now they've all realized they're not going to become Blizzard, because a) it's a lot of work to put out a game that polished and b) nobody has the reputation of Blizzard for always delivering a quality product. Instead, companies have come to the conclusion that it's more financially sound to sell a lot of boxes, which they can do by hype, rather than worrying about subscriptions, which requires quality and support. Blizzard knows their market, caters to their market, and is completely willing to be the fallback game for the vast majority of the MMO community.
As to the title of the article, "Creativity. Where is it?" I think the answer to that question is the new Free-to-Play market. Cheap to produce and with little oversight (the big boys don't seem to care what the game is as long as there's an item shop), there have been numerous innovations that we can only hope will trickle into the Pay-to-Play market in the years to come. We've seen sea-based, space-based, tarot-card-based MMOs, you name it, it's probably out there as a Free-to-Play game. Are they perfect? Of course not, but they don't need to be. They pay for themselves. And if you're tired of the same old Orcs and Elves and boar-killing rampages, there's an ad for Dung Fighter on my screen right now. It's just about intriguing enough for me to download and maybe spend $10 just to sample a dungeon.
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth Your eyeys are shut mis webb, like most users of this site. If its not made by the top 5 it dosnt count right? http://www.endofnations.com http://universe.lego.com/ http://www.globalagendagame.com/ http://apb.com http://playmyworld.com/ http://www.battlegroundeurope.com/ http://www.wurmonline.com/ http://world.needforspeed.com/ http://www.dawntide.net/ http://www.ryzom.com/en/mmorpg-rpg-mmo-ryzom_ring.html http://www.faceofmankind.com/ http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/ http://www.minecraft.net/ I believe your lecture article is a bit pretentious and does nothing but feed the idea that there is no work involved even in the creation of "clone" titles. The point you make and advice are low hanging fruit anyone here could have written and, believe it or not, are already standard practice in most development houses. You ignore all the talent experience and skill that goes into the art, design and coding of them, even if they are based of contemporary titles.Lastly, you seem to completely ignore the fact that most titles do not innovate because players do not want innovation. Sure, some here may say I want innovation yet will be the very first to complain that new game B does not have feature X of title C that has been out for a decade.Proof that the majority (MMORPG.com is not the majority) do not necessarily want innovation or creativity is the simply fact that the most successful titles are slight improvement on predecessors, not radical advancements.Case in point, when Turbine redefined the GUI for MMOs with AC2, very few MMOs to this day do NOT use it, even the ones that are bran new use it. Why? Its one part refinement, its also one part adaptable and comfortable by players and the expectance that a MMO GUI be counterparty in looks, use and function.When you ask for innovation and creativity, you need to look at players an what they want first. Currently, what they want is more DIKU clones. They want recognizable orcs elves and mages. They want to kill 10 rats.
I could not have said it better. Thank you MrBloodworth for your comments here AND for the work you do in that world you run around in sometimes
I especially agree with this part....
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth Your eye's are shut Miss Webb, like most users of this site. If its not made by the top 5 it doesn't count right?
It's long past time that all MMO projects received the same review and exposure on this site. As a reader I don't feel that is happening at all, in fact I feel that only a select few are being held up for examination. I read MMORPG.COM for ALL the MMO news, not just the highlights.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
Only games that I believe challenged anything, that I playerd recently are... Darkfall... Mortal Online... and that's it. Global Agenda was sorta out of the box... sort of.
On thing that I find unbelievably helpful to creativity is meditation. Sit, and continously bring the mind back to the feeling of the breath in the belly. There is nothing, that I know of, that is more disruptive to your current patterns of thought. This in turn, allows new thought patterns to arise, or at best no thought patterns.
Continously bring the mind back to the sensation of the breath in the belly
Honestly, telling creative individuals how to be creative is not only pointless, but a bit pretentious. As a creative professional I can say that different things work for different people, and any creative professional that is making it in the industry, knows how to be creative and what works for them. Some people come up with their best ideas while in the shower. Some while running. Some while sketching in the park. Some while eating soup. Different strokes for different folks.
As for why it's lacking in the MMO market, I think that rock has been unturned already. MMO budgets have become so huge, and profits have been so unreliable, that investors aren't comfortable taking risks on the traditional model. They want to go with what works, and for right now that's WoW. If you look at the F2P market, they already know they aren't getting subs, so they don't need to worry about them. As long as the game is appealing for small doses of fun, they make money. Hence, that is where you are seeing most of the innovation.
Wizard 101, Global Agenda, Guild Wars, etc.. you've got a lot of variety in that market, and it invites people to try it. Plus it's really easy for enough players to spend 5-10$ here or there that they make their money's worth.
I agree its not he designers fault it their mmo sucks I read an article like this years ago stating that a major reason why many games in general are bad because of the pressure of the publisher pushing development to release the game before its done or leaving out features for a later date just to satisfy their time schedule. now I know there are alot of opinions out there wondering what is the reason for all the shitty games, its hard to try and figure this out I feel it's just part of the gaming business.
Comments
Just because games look similar doesn't necessarily mean there's lacking of creativity.
That's just not a fair statement.
Technology is a big hurdle when it comes to innovation or implementing game contents. Without the most advance engines out there, your game can only do so much, and by using the latest engine, your game practically be doing similar things as other games using the same engine.
Besides, what game designer ignorant about being creative? Sometimes publishers will only want you to draw something using wood and coal...then someone like you accuses the developers of not being creative.
Ready for GW2!!!
Woah there Sir rides a big horse. If you'd kindly dismount you'd easily realize that this isn't the Wallstreet Journal.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
No one has heard the saying "Everything that can be invented has been invented." - By Charles H Duell
What I am saying is it is hard to come up with something new and creative with out it just being the same thing or slightly improved version of something else. People today think something is "innovated" when in reality it just hasn't been seen in awhile.
Here is a great example. Trix cereal awhile back wen back to be completely spheres and they claimed it to be "new shape" when I remember at a younger age Trix was originally spheres and when they change the shape of the cereal to "fruit" shapes.
Well, after reading this article, and the last one you posted titled "Women in the Industry", I just kinda put two and two together....
I work as a Video Game tester and Graphics Artist. http://adf.ly/18qDkx
I disagree. Players don't really know what they want until they get it. If you gave everybody what they they wanted, then everyone would be both indestructible and able to kill with a glance, thus creating a paradox and exploding servers, computers and skulls.
Anyway, I see the lack of creativity as being something to do with an American obssession with literalism, which is really really un-fun in fantasy, which is supposed to be the place where crazy innovations can reign. What a disaster its been!
I find it odd a few posters decided to take my post personal. Especially when I posted about some people wanting "X" from game "B" ETC....
The market has shown that the more successful games are those that use small advancements, not radical changes. It has zero to do with an individual. If you truly wanted creative titles, you would be supporting them, but you are not. Look around. Even the op does not see any games outside of the big 5 houses as anything that counts.
I did not tell anyone what they wanted, I simply pointed out what gamers support, you can sit here all day long and say you want creativity, unique features, but you do not support the games that already have them, so why would anyone invest in such a thing, reality is, the market doesn’t want them.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
You missed the entire point, but decided it was all about you anyway.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Bloodworth,
Is it the "market" determining that such titles are not popular or the fact that they can't secure enough funding to access that market, get exposure and get a fair trial?
A movie may be immensely well made, but if it never gets advertised 99% of the people out there will go see the same old dreck churned out by the big producers. Why? not neccesarly because they prefer the dreck to the quality film....but because they never even knew of the quality films existance in the first place to give it a try.
Of the games on your list, I subb'd to WWII Online for quite some Time, enjoyed it immensely, was probably mt 2nd favorate Online Game. Would probably still be subb'ed to it if my time and cash were more plentifull these days.
I tried DawnTide, liked the flavor of it....but it was basicaly Alpha/Pre-Alpha at that stage (despite the fact it was labeled Beta). If they had the cash to invest in the resources to get it up and running (as well as advertise). I'm sure it would do very decently.
Kind of funny, talking about creativity here and another thread on this site is asking about Everquest Next. The first thing that popped into my head was why bother? The third iteration of that game is only going to attract a few fans and that is about it. Besides, most of the creative people at SOE left a long time ago. A better graphics engine will not improve the game much.
I think too many people confuse eye popping graphics with creativity when it really has little to do with it.
Funny one of the more creative MMO's in my book was AC1. Sad when we have to look back on an older game and say that it had far more creativity in it than any game since. Even AC2 was better than most of crap on the ether today. But Bloodworth was right in that case, one of the reasons AC2 failed because it was very different from it's predecessor.
I guess we just have to hope we get an indie game that is willing to start small with an innovative product and build on it, like CCP did with Eve. The major studios certainly don't seem willing to take a chance on it.
SOE havn't been creative in a long time, that is true. EQ next will probably be a polished up Vanguard set in Norrath.
But not all creative people are indie devs. Arenanets GW2 and CCPs World of darkness online both seems very creative and they are both too large nowadays to be called indie studios.
Sure, the largest companies seems to wait for other people to get ideas and then steal them but there are a few medium sized companies out there that is trying something new.
And while Bioware is a huge company I wouldn't call making TOR a MMO creative but at least they are copying themselves so it is at least better than most other right now.
I'm waiting for a mini-game based MMO, one that has more than a few types of minigames and isn't targeting the 8-12 year olds.
Lol you say that but its not true Darkfall is a very good game infact.
That majority dont like open free roaming free for all pvp games with full loot and no hold hands no instance no epix no BG/Arena thats not Aventurines fault.
They have alot of talent world is great looking it have alot potential we now only need players that have same mindset.
99% want ez-mode casual hold hand from a-z and alot fluff and thats what Darkfall is not about thats not fault devs thats fault of mmo gamers who rather play themeparks or sandbox without risk.
Its clear that mmo world dont want games that are not clones of EQ- WoW- L2 or GW.
Plenty of creative devs around but they just dont get a chance.
Conclusion majority mmo players dont realy want innovation or out of box they want constant same thats why bioware will be a WoW with lightsabers.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
As an MMO Systems Designer I have to say I agree with your ideas.
Life is the best reference as its the ultimate MMO.
I think that the problem with many MMOs and really most computer RPGs is that they are built on top of Pen and Paper systems. As a result mmo systems, based on randomness and dps, tend to be 1 dimensional rather than providing an open-ended experience the way a game like chess does.
While playing games does benefit a designer (especially games outside the genera they create games in) I think designers should expand in other areas as well. Learning to code, or how to make 3d art would help them interface better with other teams. Going to an amusement park may give them a great idea for their next dungeon. A walk through the woods may give them ideas on how creatures in their game should interact ect... What better reference for a game world then the best one ever created (that we know of).
To add to your thoughts I would sall that all the creativity in the world will not benefit a designer's game if there management is not open minded to new ideas. One of the worst things about the industry is that often those in charge of a project are not designers, or even gamers and many times a good creative idea will get stifled. We can only hope that the people in charge of a project are keeping their minds open and taking walks in the woods as well.
I agree with you Mrbloodworth, for the most of what you typed in the first comment. however I have noticed that in the video game industry, the word "innovation" offten has it's meaning confused with that of "Gimmick". I think you may be making this misteak as well (no offence)
Also even if you did not make that misteak (wich I'm pretty sure Angie made), your comment fails to take into consideration another thing I noticed. Innovation can take two paths, the right way, and the wrong way. An exaple of the "right way" could be how most console multiplayer is now online. An example of the "wrong way" could be how most games now lack "game overs" thus taking away the majority of fear and motivation, that once caused players to strive to improve.
<<FBZ>>
That comment did not come out right in the begining (NOTHING I DO HERE COMES OUT RIGHT)
<<FBZ>>
Just a great article! Designers take note-mmo's have become stale and all look the same!
Exactly. Players do not want the innovation. It's nothing but a button to push to make themselves feel 'edgy'. Players themselves do not want more innovation, they see no reason to learn multiple systems to play. It is much easier to learn one and jump from game to game.
I find it amusing how people always attack capitalism for the world's problems. I'm sorry, but if capitalism did not exist, Warcraft would have never made it to an MMO, let alone three expansions. If it weren't for capitalism...monetary gain as a reward for hard work and producing a product or service people WANT to pay for...technological advancement in the computer/gaming industry would not be nearly at where it is today. If it weren't for rich tycoons willing to put down millions of dollars to develop games for YOU to enjoy and play IF YOU WANT TO AND THINK IT'S WORTH YOUR TIME AND MONEY TO INVEST IN IT...Then there would be far less...And far worse than there is today.
Humans don't 'Inovate'. We evolve. We build upon the ideas that precede us and make them better. We go from steam engines to cumbustion engines to nuclear power and solar power that is actually worth using. We go from playing Kings Quest I (as an example of what the IBM 382 could do) with CGI graphics and 8MB ram to Quad Core 8gig ram powerhouses that give us WoW and Diablo 1, 2 and 3 and all sorts of great games. None of this would have happened if there was no gain to be had out of it. A free, open market where people are rewarded for their efforts by way of other people trading in monetary value for a product or service is what drives this and any other industry. When a business fails at producing or creating something that people want to pay money for, they fail...As they should. They put in the risk, they get the reward. No one is forcing you to pay to play anything, you're chosing to do that on your own, along with everyone else. There are two types of greedy and selfish people in the world. One are those who want to be successful and rich and live a well privilaged life, the other involves people who want everything handed to them, and would rather put the blame of how horrible their lives and/or problems are on those that work hard to be successful. People who cry about greedy businesses swindling the masses with bad games are the later; Greedy, selfish, self important nobodies who think they are owed everything and are owed it NOW (footstomp)!
As for me, I'm crossing my fingers for Guild Wars 2...That looks inovative to me. As for MMO's...They pretty much are all the same when you get down to it...And I haven't even bothered with WoW for a while. Grinding and doing the same thing over and over again just isn't fun to me. I'm also interested in seeing how the EVE folks are going to deal with the World of Darkness.
As a player I absolutely agree with basic thesis of this article -- that creativity seems to be a lost cause in mainstream MMOs nowadays. I'm not sure about her solution but she has a point about the lack of creativity. This is not exactly news of course.
Unfortunately, as a developer, I also see the point of the people who say that the problem is with the suits. And to be honest, the suits may have justification. If you're going to spend tens of millions of dollars on a game, it has GOT to make that money back. It's easy to be creative if there's no big risk, but budgets have grown so much that there's huge risk so you have to play it safe.
It isn't just in MMOs although MMOs seem to have the disease very bad. Movies and TV series also tend to avoid doing anything risky. They're a bit more risk taking then MMOs but there's definately a tendency. Anytime big bucks are involved, people have a natural tendency to play it safe and for good reason. I suspect that if you blow $20 mil, your career is going to take a nosedive.
When you clone something, you KNOW it works. If you try something new you don't know. You have to think everything through from the ground up and one mistake can doom the product.
So in the end, the success of MMOs which allowed their huge budgets may doom the industry by making truly creative games too risky.
Perhaps the only real hope for creative MMOs is in low budget creations. Something's needed though. Because right now my interest in ALL MMOs is headed down the toilet with all these clones. If things keep going the way they are, the MMO industry could strangle on its own success.
A lot of good points in these replies, but I think the most important one is this: when MMO's first came onto the scene, they were the minnows (don't remember who said it). Even though Everquest was fairly successful and well-known in the media especially, developers and designers still had a massive amount of creative license because nobody upstairs saw the MMO industry as a cash cow. It was a niche market, and the cheapest thing to do was let the designers do their own thing.
When WoW came along as a fully-polished, relatively casual MMORPG that appealed to the mainstream through pop culture references in the dialogue, a shallow learning curve, much faster leveling than was the norm at the time, and an established IP from a trusted name in PC gaming, it at once revolutionized and stagnated the industry. Blizzard became rich, and the other technology big-shots took notice and said "We want to be like them." By now they've all realized they're not going to become Blizzard, because a) it's a lot of work to put out a game that polished and b) nobody has the reputation of Blizzard for always delivering a quality product. Instead, companies have come to the conclusion that it's more financially sound to sell a lot of boxes, which they can do by hype, rather than worrying about subscriptions, which requires quality and support. Blizzard knows their market, caters to their market, and is completely willing to be the fallback game for the vast majority of the MMO community.
As to the title of the article, "Creativity. Where is it?" I think the answer to that question is the new Free-to-Play market. Cheap to produce and with little oversight (the big boys don't seem to care what the game is as long as there's an item shop), there have been numerous innovations that we can only hope will trickle into the Pay-to-Play market in the years to come. We've seen sea-based, space-based, tarot-card-based MMOs, you name it, it's probably out there as a Free-to-Play game. Are they perfect? Of course not, but they don't need to be. They pay for themselves. And if you're tired of the same old Orcs and Elves and boar-killing rampages, there's an ad for Dung Fighter on my screen right now. It's just about intriguing enough for me to download and maybe spend $10 just to sample a dungeon.
I miss DAoC.
I could not have said it better. Thank you MrBloodworth for your comments here AND for the work you do in that world you run around in sometimes
I especially agree with this part....
It's long past time that all MMO projects received the same review and exposure on this site. As a reader I don't feel that is happening at all, in fact I feel that only a select few are being held up for examination. I read MMORPG.COM for ALL the MMO news, not just the highlights.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
Only games that I believe challenged anything, that I playerd recently are... Darkfall... Mortal Online... and that's it. Global Agenda was sorta out of the box... sort of.
On thing that I find unbelievably helpful to creativity is meditation. Sit, and continously bring the mind back to the feeling of the breath in the belly. There is nothing, that I know of, that is more disruptive to your current patterns of thought. This in turn, allows new thought patterns to arise, or at best no thought patterns.
Continously bring the mind back to the sensation of the breath in the belly
Honestly, telling creative individuals how to be creative is not only pointless, but a bit pretentious. As a creative professional I can say that different things work for different people, and any creative professional that is making it in the industry, knows how to be creative and what works for them. Some people come up with their best ideas while in the shower. Some while running. Some while sketching in the park. Some while eating soup. Different strokes for different folks.
As for why it's lacking in the MMO market, I think that rock has been unturned already. MMO budgets have become so huge, and profits have been so unreliable, that investors aren't comfortable taking risks on the traditional model. They want to go with what works, and for right now that's WoW. If you look at the F2P market, they already know they aren't getting subs, so they don't need to worry about them. As long as the game is appealing for small doses of fun, they make money. Hence, that is where you are seeing most of the innovation.
Wizard 101, Global Agenda, Guild Wars, etc.. you've got a lot of variety in that market, and it invites people to try it. Plus it's really easy for enough players to spend 5-10$ here or there that they make their money's worth.
I agree its not he designers fault it their mmo sucks I read an article like this years ago stating that a major reason why many games in general are bad because of the pressure of the publisher pushing development to release the game before its done or leaving out features for a later date just to satisfy their time schedule. now I know there are alot of opinions out there wondering what is the reason for all the shitty games, its hard to try and figure this out I feel it's just part of the gaming business.
Evil will always triumph because good is dumb....