I've never ever seen a MMORPG without the grinding to level up. It's the most prominent problem in my opinion, however, that's what also makes a MMORPG a MMORPG.
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein
Us, the players, almost everyone remember the joy of their first mmo and seek that feeling, which is nowhere to be found, so everyone tries to influence new games to go in that direction, perhaps maybe dev's listen too much to the playerbase, since everyone is gonna be of a different opinion, you can't please everyone, so solutions will always be a compromise.
We have way too high expectations, no1 has thought about what we are really asking...
We want content content content,
no grind,
we want it to be fun and rewarding,
we want it to look perfect,
controls to be easy,
we want quest to be more than just " ! " and follow the arrow to the destination,
we want freedom
we want sandbox tools, to build everything ourselfs,
and much much more, and it's simply not possible to deliver everything, and if someones tries it, they come out with half finished products which noone likes.
The days where you bought an game, played it with it's good, and it's bad sides are over....
And this will probably continue for many years to come, untill it becomes easier and faster to make a working game, that can deliver atleast what the majority wants.
Just my 2 cents, not worth much, but i thought I'd share em'.
Beazt
Do you work for CCP games? That sounds like a pitch for EVE Online.
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed." - Albert Einstein
I'm interested to know what other people think are the problems with MMORPGs of today, or yesterday. I've made a list myself, but I want to know what other folks think. (Note: The headings are intended to be humorous, which may have failed.)
The Problems Inherent to the Average MMORPG:
* Leveling Grind
___* New players must grind levels in order to play with more established friends
___* Race to the "end game" promotes under-utilization of low and mid level content of all kinds
___* Level cap leads to player fatigue when no advancement is possible
___* Characters must be "maxed-out" in order to be considered for "High-end" content guilds
* The Grass is Always Greener for Druids
___* There is no right number of classes
______* Too few classes stifles player choice and restricts freedom
______* Too many classes produce a situation where class boundaries are ill defined
___* Separate classes invariably require balancing, particularly when PvP is involved
___* A class system provokes excessive angst about relative power between the classes
___* The standard balancing process for classes is rock-paper-scissors.
* Holy Trinity
___* Too much focus on Tank-centric play style leads to rigid and restrictive group roles
___* Too little focus on Tank-centric play style leads to everyone being a soloist
* Sorry 1 Too Busy 212 Twisting 21 to 121 Chat 2121 Now
___* Fast paced games are suited to short attention spans but this reduces the time for interpersonal interactions
___* Bite-sized content tends to promote trivialization of content
* Easy Mode
___* In order to gain the largest player-base possible games tend to trivialize challenge in exchange for simple time investment
___* Lack of challenge leads to player dissatisfaction and loss of sense of accomplishment
* Who Uses Dial-Up Anymore?
___* Focus on large player-base trends away from twitch gaming
___* Trend away from twitch gaming allows for smaller bandwidth and higher lag without loss of performance but also reduces the impact of player reaction and skill
* Making Mountains out of Mole Hills
___* Focus on graphical quality trends towards shorter view distance
___* Smaller zone sizes tend to trivialize geography and produce unrealistic terrain
___* Reducing travel time trivializes the size of the world reducing the impact of exploration
Funny how you say whats wrong with mmorpgs today, but all the stuff is really just from one game. WOW, have you tried any of the other mmos or do you think this is the end all to be all one?
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
I think the main problem is that they promise stuff they can't or don't want to stick to.
"Awesome space combat!" (on rails)
"Incredible graphics with newest technology!" (not on launch of course, but more than a year later gets patched in)
"Super fun events!" (you can only participate in if you pay real money)
"Fair monthly fee! No Item shop!" (the item shop will be implemented half a year after launch)
"Many content upgrades!" (once every 2 years as a paid expansion)
"Incredible combat system!" (same as in any other MMORPG)
"No cheating in here!" (if you keep your eyes shut while playing)
"The next big hit!" (where half of the staff gets fired shortly after launch)
"Super awesome flying mode!" (in certain areas for a limited duration)
"A living breathing world!" (where you can't move two steps without a loading screen or an invisible wall, with NPCs standing around like statues all day long)
Say a website called "RPG-Games" writes as review:
"This MMORPG is the best example of how not to do it. The combat is boring, the support bad. If even the graphics would be awesome. A forgetable experience."
Then you will read on an ad the next day:
"RPG-Games says: This MMORPG is the best! ... The combat, .. the support, .... even the graphics ....: awesome! An ... experience!"
And so on and so on. They tell you everything if it makes you buy their stuff. You know that half of the stuff the devs and hype machines say are simple lies, and the other half is exaggerated.
I'm interested to know what other people think are the problems with MMORPGs of today, or yesterday. I've made a list myself, but I want to know what other folks think. (Note: The headings are intended to be humorous, which may have failed.)
The Problems Inherent to the Average MMORPG:
* Leveling Grind
___* New players must grind levels in order to play with more established friends
___* Race to the "end game" promotes under-utilization of low and mid level content of all kinds
___* Level cap leads to player fatigue when no advancement is possible
___* Characters must be "maxed-out" in order to be considered for "High-end" content guilds
* The Grass is Always Greener for Druids
___* There is no right number of classes
______* Too few classes stifles player choice and restricts freedom
______* Too many classes produce a situation where class boundaries are ill defined
___* Separate classes invariably require balancing, particularly when PvP is involved
___* A class system provokes excessive angst about relative power between the classes
___* The standard balancing process for classes is rock-paper-scissors.
* Holy Trinity
___* Too much focus on Tank-centric play style leads to rigid and restrictive group roles
___* Too little focus on Tank-centric play style leads to everyone being a soloist
* Sorry 1 Too Busy 212 Twisting 21 to 121 Chat 2121 Now
___* Fast paced games are suited to short attention spans but this reduces the time for interpersonal interactions
___* Bite-sized content tends to promote trivialization of content
* Easy Mode
___* In order to gain the largest player-base possible games tend to trivialize challenge in exchange for simple time investment
___* Lack of challenge leads to player dissatisfaction and loss of sense of accomplishment
* Who Uses Dial-Up Anymore?
___* Focus on large player-base trends away from twitch gaming
___* Trend away from twitch gaming allows for smaller bandwidth and higher lag without loss of performance but also reduces the impact of player reaction and skill
* Making Mountains out of Mole Hills
___* Focus on graphical quality trends towards shorter view distance
___* Smaller zone sizes tend to trivialize geography and produce unrealistic terrain
___* Reducing travel time trivializes the size of the world reducing the impact of exploration
I tried to avoid this topic because there wasn't anything that I felt I could add, you've really hit the biggest problems on the scale of extremes. You seem to be thinking that the pendulum is swinging in either direction completely and this seems to be the case. At this point I think I can add a few more things to your list:
1. Not knowing what sort of game you are really playing. All Points Bulletin is a we-know-not-what and Guild Wars Prophecies through Nightfall really isn't a MMORPG (it's a MORPG), but anything from improper advertising to word-of-mouth misconceptions can leave players wondering what is going on and looking at things oddly.
2. Players just don't seem to be interested in the story of most MMORPGs and instead just want to get the reward and rush to end-game. Quest text becomes ignored and players think that quests are too similar unduly. Developers can make a story as interesting as possible but if people do not want to participate they won't and will end up viewing the game inappropriately. Sometimes it really is the player that isn't getting it and this is becoming more and more the case.
3. More open, 'sandbox' games just don't have enough content and seem to be unfinished. Then again, from what we've seen here posted about Mortal Online, some of these games really are unfinished.
4. Perhaps this biggest problem is any given company trying to make as much money as possible on a game that simply isn't a quality game because they haven't listened to their developers (or development staff) and polite suggestions from the playing community.
When I consider #2 and #4, it seems that not only are many players not playing these games the right way -let's be honest, if you want a twitch game play a twitch game, if you want an action game play an action game, but if you're not going to pay attention to the story in any sort of RPG there is not one fucking reason to play it and complain, none- but publishing companies (sometimes even developers) pushing out inferior products in an effort to make money. I think that ArenaNet can really do some good here with Guild Wars 2, finding a way around both problems #2 and #4, but we will have to wait and see how it develops.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain. (2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
Funny how you say whats wrong with mmorpgs today, but all the stuff is really just from one game. WOW, have you tried any of the other mmos or do you think this is the end all to be all one?
EQ, EQ2, WoW, WAR, AoC, CoH, CoV, DDO, GW, Horizons, Lineage, Meridian 69, UO, Silkroad, Tabula Rasa, SWG...
I'm sure I'm missing one or two. All of them suffer from one or more of the faults I have listed. However, WoW is the template that all MMORPGs are following since it's release, so it epitomizes the faults I see with the genre.
I would say taht there are a lot of factors that have made MMORPG gaming what it is today and no its not all WoW's fault. I would start with the internet and it going from dial-up and few cable connections to cable and fiber in a relatively short period of time. This brought a lot more people into the online gaming market, accessability does wonders for a market segment. I would say that before there were relatively few choices for MMO gamers UO, Lineage and EQ being the larger titles. DaOC, EQ2, Lineage 2 and WoW comming a few years later as internet accessability grew so did the demographic of people that had access to these games. After playing these games for the last 6-10 years because lets face it there hasn't been much in the way of awsome that has released in the last 6 years people are wanting and expecting something new and different.
At this point people know what they liked and didnt like about the games that they have played or are still playing for lack of a better option. At first we didnt know what to expect just hopped on and started playing adventuring and finding new people as you went. Now people move whole guilds and clans to new games and have a pre conceived notion of what they are going to be playing and how it should work.
The game has changed from the development standpoint as well you can no longer release a game that is broken or has features missing since your player base now has a grasp of how things are supose to work for them. We as a community are much less forgiving of errors than we use to be and like it or not if you dont have a pretty high level of polish on your game before you release it it doesnt matter how much content or innovative it is if its broken we will not play. There seems to have been a lot of games released in the last 6 years that just tried to copy the level gear grind formula but got it horribly wrong, didnt support it or released when it should have still been in alpha. IMO Aion was a awsome game until level 25 when it seemed that they ran out of good ideas and bounced back to the grind to level mechanic. No one had been able to release a game, besides LoTRO which had good success it just needed to be maintained IMO, that has been able to create a solid lasting player base like the games released 6-10 years ago.
Developers need to relaize that they arent going to copy WoWs success and focus on making their games unique and fun not grabbing for the entire market all at once. They also need to realize that if you release crap expect it to perform like crap we are not going to pay for you to try to make it what it should have been and what you promised in the first place. Last but not least set your goals to be atainable dont promise stuff that you cant deliver.
An MMO needs to be polished to a blinding sheen on day one, or it will fail. First impressions are incredibly important, especially if you're trying to convince them that this game is worth their wallet. If your game is buggy, glitchy, and incomplete at launch, you're going to bleed players like you have a hemorrhage.
2. Incomplete features set:
Many MMO developers often hype certain features that are completely absent at launch. This makes many players feel 'cheated' or lied to. As a developer, you have to make sure the things you hype actually end up getting in the game. And no, "we'll add it in a patch later!" does not cut it.
3. The WoW syndrome:
World of Warcraft is undoubtably one of the most successful MMOs of all time. It currently hovers around 11.5 million subscribers. That is a LOT of people. Other developers look at WoW and see how disgustingly successful it is. They think to themselves "Well, if they did it, so can I!". The problem with copying WoW is that it's impossible to build a better WoW. Even if you do make a "better WoW', no WoW players will play your game. Why? Because even if your game is "better than WoW", they've invested so much time into WoW that they're unable to leave their level 80s behind. All of their friends are still on WoW. You can't compete directly with WoW because the community is such a big draw - people stay for the people, not necessarily the game itself.
For an MMO to be successful, it needs to differentiate itself from World of Warcraft. It needs to find its own niche.
World of Warcraft is undoubtably one of the most successful MMOs of all time. It currently hovers around 11.5 million subscribers. That is a LOT of people. Other developers look at WoW and see how disgustingly successful. They think to themselves "Well, if they did it, so can I!". The problem with copying WoW is that it's impossible to build a better WoW. Even if you do make a "better WoW', no WoW players will play your game. Why? Because even if your game is "better than WoW", they've invested so much time into WoW that they're unable to leave their level 80's behind. All of their friends are still on WoW. You can't completely directly with WoW because the community is such a big draw - people stay for the people, not necessarily the game itself.
I agree that it is sheer idiocracy to make a better WoW with only a fraction of their budget.
However I believe that if there was a better WoW than WoW, players would leave in a heartbeat. Those who would stay only because they have their "lvl80s" are idiots. Most play to have fun.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
World of Warcraft is undoubtably one of the most successful MMOs of all time. It currently hovers around 11.5 million subscribers. That is a LOT of people. Other developers look at WoW and see how disgustingly successful. They think to themselves "Well, if they did it, so can I!". The problem with copying WoW is that it's impossible to build a better WoW. Even if you do make a "better WoW', no WoW players will play your game. Why? Because even if your game is "better than WoW", they've invested so much time into WoW that they're unable to leave their level 80's behind. All of their friends are still on WoW. You can't completely directly with WoW because the community is such a big draw - people stay for the people, not necessarily the game itself.
I agree that it is sheer idiocracy to make a better WoW with only a fraction of their budget.
However I believe that if there was a better WoW than WoW, players would leave in a heartbeat. Those who would stay only because they have their "lvl80s" are idiots. Most play to have fun.
WoW has pretty much gimped the mmorpg industry no developers put the work into their games anymore . I look around Forums and see all these posts about how SOE sucks Blizzard rocks all.Ultima and Everquest built this industry like it or not. I've played just about every mmo out there WoW has the subs from its ease of play, gold farmers, and the fact that it runs on anything( I have 7 yr old Emachine that itll run on ).These no depth to these games anymore.God i hope swtor just doesnt end up being the space WoW
the biggest problem with mmorpgs today is that nobody takes any risks. make it simple,small, and linear. that design philosophy has poisoned the genre. before the fall, devs were pushing the boundaries of hardware and programming. making crazy huge worlds, with thousands of class combinations, all kinds of intricate crafting engines.
yeah there were insane ammounts of glitches and bugs. but those of us that cared enough, took ownership and called it our own.
10 years ago, if you wouldve told me that modern mmorpgs were typically 8-10 classes, no housing, gear treadmills, that could be run on the same computer i had back then. i wouldve thought you were on crack.
There is but one problem, there are no roleplaying games. So, nobody is roleplaying. And that is what made the classic fun. Not gifts and cheap treasure, but the ability to act and pretend and role play.
Comments
I've never ever seen a MMORPG without the grinding to level up. It's the most prominent problem in my opinion, however, that's what also makes a MMORPG a MMORPG.
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed."
- Albert Einstein
Do you work for CCP games? That sounds like a pitch for EVE Online.
Ghost
How is that a pitch for EVE Online?
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed."
- Albert Einstein
Instances.
No, or little penalty if killed.
Kiddies grief.
Don't forget ......they just suck!
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
Funny how you say whats wrong with mmorpgs today, but all the stuff is really just from one game. WOW, have you tried any of the other mmos or do you think this is the end all to be all one?
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
* The desire to be the story book hero
* The need to rate achievement comparative to other players
* Not enough codpieces
Yeah, forgot that one. But that's because every company in the bizz is afraid to stray from "the formula".
God forbid they should miss out on potential customers because the game is to hard.
I think the main problem is that they promise stuff they can't or don't want to stick to.
"Awesome space combat!" (on rails)
"Incredible graphics with newest technology!" (not on launch of course, but more than a year later gets patched in)
"Super fun events!" (you can only participate in if you pay real money)
"Fair monthly fee! No Item shop!" (the item shop will be implemented half a year after launch)
"Many content upgrades!" (once every 2 years as a paid expansion)
"Incredible combat system!" (same as in any other MMORPG)
"No cheating in here!" (if you keep your eyes shut while playing)
"The next big hit!" (where half of the staff gets fired shortly after launch)
"Super awesome flying mode!" (in certain areas for a limited duration)
"A living breathing world!" (where you can't move two steps without a loading screen or an invisible wall, with NPCs standing around like statues all day long)
Say a website called "RPG-Games" writes as review:
"This MMORPG is the best example of how not to do it. The combat is boring, the support bad. If even the graphics would be awesome. A forgetable experience."
Then you will read on an ad the next day:
"RPG-Games says: This MMORPG is the best! ... The combat, .. the support, .... even the graphics ....: awesome! An ... experience!"
And so on and so on. They tell you everything if it makes you buy their stuff. You know that half of the stuff the devs and hype machines say are simple lies, and the other half is exaggerated.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
I tried to avoid this topic because there wasn't anything that I felt I could add, you've really hit the biggest problems on the scale of extremes. You seem to be thinking that the pendulum is swinging in either direction completely and this seems to be the case. At this point I think I can add a few more things to your list:
1. Not knowing what sort of game you are really playing. All Points Bulletin is a we-know-not-what and Guild Wars Prophecies through Nightfall really isn't a MMORPG (it's a MORPG), but anything from improper advertising to word-of-mouth misconceptions can leave players wondering what is going on and looking at things oddly.
2. Players just don't seem to be interested in the story of most MMORPGs and instead just want to get the reward and rush to end-game. Quest text becomes ignored and players think that quests are too similar unduly. Developers can make a story as interesting as possible but if people do not want to participate they won't and will end up viewing the game inappropriately. Sometimes it really is the player that isn't getting it and this is becoming more and more the case.
3. More open, 'sandbox' games just don't have enough content and seem to be unfinished. Then again, from what we've seen here posted about Mortal Online, some of these games really are unfinished.
4. Perhaps this biggest problem is any given company trying to make as much money as possible on a game that simply isn't a quality game because they haven't listened to their developers (or development staff) and polite suggestions from the playing community.
When I consider #2 and #4, it seems that not only are many players not playing these games the right way -let's be honest, if you want a twitch game play a twitch game, if you want an action game play an action game, but if you're not going to pay attention to the story in any sort of RPG there is not one fucking reason to play it and complain, none- but publishing companies (sometimes even developers) pushing out inferior products in an effort to make money. I think that ArenaNet can really do some good here with Guild Wars 2, finding a way around both problems #2 and #4, but we will have to wait and see how it develops.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
EQ, EQ2, WoW, WAR, AoC, CoH, CoV, DDO, GW, Horizons, Lineage, Meridian 69, UO, Silkroad, Tabula Rasa, SWG...
I'm sure I'm missing one or two. All of them suffer from one or more of the faults I have listed. However, WoW is the template that all MMORPGs are following since it's release, so it epitomizes the faults I see with the genre.
My problem with mmorpgs is the gameplay from 13 years ago is still more creative than the gameplay from today.
I would say taht there are a lot of factors that have made MMORPG gaming what it is today and no its not all WoW's fault. I would start with the internet and it going from dial-up and few cable connections to cable and fiber in a relatively short period of time. This brought a lot more people into the online gaming market, accessability does wonders for a market segment. I would say that before there were relatively few choices for MMO gamers UO, Lineage and EQ being the larger titles. DaOC, EQ2, Lineage 2 and WoW comming a few years later as internet accessability grew so did the demographic of people that had access to these games. After playing these games for the last 6-10 years because lets face it there hasn't been much in the way of awsome that has released in the last 6 years people are wanting and expecting something new and different.
At this point people know what they liked and didnt like about the games that they have played or are still playing for lack of a better option. At first we didnt know what to expect just hopped on and started playing adventuring and finding new people as you went. Now people move whole guilds and clans to new games and have a pre conceived notion of what they are going to be playing and how it should work.
The game has changed from the development standpoint as well you can no longer release a game that is broken or has features missing since your player base now has a grasp of how things are supose to work for them. We as a community are much less forgiving of errors than we use to be and like it or not if you dont have a pretty high level of polish on your game before you release it it doesnt matter how much content or innovative it is if its broken we will not play. There seems to have been a lot of games released in the last 6 years that just tried to copy the level gear grind formula but got it horribly wrong, didnt support it or released when it should have still been in alpha. IMO Aion was a awsome game until level 25 when it seemed that they ran out of good ideas and bounced back to the grind to level mechanic. No one had been able to release a game, besides LoTRO which had good success it just needed to be maintained IMO, that has been able to create a solid lasting player base like the games released 6-10 years ago.
Developers need to relaize that they arent going to copy WoWs success and focus on making their games unique and fun not grabbing for the entire market all at once. They also need to realize that if you release crap expect it to perform like crap we are not going to pay for you to try to make it what it should have been and what you promised in the first place. Last but not least set your goals to be atainable dont promise stuff that you cant deliver.
The problems of MMOs today, from my perspective:
1. Buggy launches:
An MMO needs to be polished to a blinding sheen on day one, or it will fail. First impressions are incredibly important, especially if you're trying to convince them that this game is worth their wallet. If your game is buggy, glitchy, and incomplete at launch, you're going to bleed players like you have a hemorrhage.
2. Incomplete features set:
Many MMO developers often hype certain features that are completely absent at launch. This makes many players feel 'cheated' or lied to. As a developer, you have to make sure the things you hype actually end up getting in the game. And no, "we'll add it in a patch later!" does not cut it.
3. The WoW syndrome:
World of Warcraft is undoubtably one of the most successful MMOs of all time. It currently hovers around 11.5 million subscribers. That is a LOT of people. Other developers look at WoW and see how disgustingly successful it is. They think to themselves "Well, if they did it, so can I!". The problem with copying WoW is that it's impossible to build a better WoW. Even if you do make a "better WoW', no WoW players will play your game. Why? Because even if your game is "better than WoW", they've invested so much time into WoW that they're unable to leave their level 80s behind. All of their friends are still on WoW. You can't compete directly with WoW because the community is such a big draw - people stay for the people, not necessarily the game itself.
For an MMO to be successful, it needs to differentiate itself from World of Warcraft. It needs to find its own niche.
I agree that it is sheer idiocracy to make a better WoW with only a fraction of their budget.
However I believe that if there was a better WoW than WoW, players would leave in a heartbeat. Those who would stay only because they have their "lvl80s" are idiots. Most play to have fun.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
WoW has pretty much gimped the mmorpg industry no developers put the work into their games anymore . I look around Forums and see all these posts about how SOE sucks Blizzard rocks all.Ultima and Everquest built this industry like it or not. I've played just about every mmo out there WoW has the subs from its ease of play, gold farmers, and the fact that it runs on anything( I have 7 yr old Emachine that itll run on ).These no depth to these games anymore.God i hope swtor just doesnt end up being the space WoW
the biggest problem with mmorpgs today is that nobody takes any risks. make it simple,small, and linear. that design philosophy has poisoned the genre. before the fall, devs were pushing the boundaries of hardware and programming. making crazy huge worlds, with thousands of class combinations, all kinds of intricate crafting engines.
yeah there were insane ammounts of glitches and bugs. but those of us that cared enough, took ownership and called it our own.
10 years ago, if you wouldve told me that modern mmorpgs were typically 8-10 classes, no housing, gear treadmills, that could be run on the same computer i had back then. i wouldve thought you were on crack.
but take a look. sad but true.