The fact that the fatigue regens when your not gaining xp and that you can just switch classes. Makes the one week timer not really an issue since it is possible to play at a normal pace and never hit the threshhold of zero %.
At least thats what im gathering from the recent clarifaction SE. Allthough i could be misunderstanding it.
The only people going to be effected are the ones that want to only play one class. The game was designed to build your character using skills from differnt weapon types and by doing this most people will never even experience the 0% threshhold, and if your one of the ones stubborn enough to only play one skill set then your gimped and aren't going to enjoy this game no matter if they had never put the fatigue system in or with the fatigue system.
Quote from SE official clarifacation
"It is worth noting, however, that the reduced rate will also gradually recover while players are engaged in activities that do not yield skill/experience points. In this manner, it is possible for the threshold value to reset completely, even before the completion of the one-week timer."
That's completely untrue. In fact, if you survey people who play MMOs casually and people who play them hardcore, you'll find casuals have a higher tendency to jump ship or cancel subscriptions when they find their playtime can't warrent paying for one anymore.
Hardcore players have many benefits to keep around. Yes, they have a high content demand, but this keeps developers rolling out content constantly, so when casual players do reach that point in the endgame they have loads of content to do. Hardcore players also have a tendency to find bugs, complain about balance issues, and so on that get fixed and again make the game more playable for casual players. You can't really make an online game that's only meant for casual players, even Farmville has it's hardcore base. Hardcore players actually tend to stick around longer (if the game can keep up with their endgame demands) than casual players, so they pay for longer subscriptions, but at the cost of higher bandwidth to support their playing habits.
Look at World of Warcraft. It's a game that appeals to both hardcore and casual players, churning out new endgame content to keep up with the hardcore demands, but in turn casual players aren't suffering from it, they are benefitting from it. While casuals make up the majority of the income (there are far more casual players than hardcore) having no content for your hardcore to do will eventually make casuals jump ship too.
This isn't about individual players necessarily, this is about market share. Yes, some casuals will leave one game for another, but for every casual leaving WoW one and a half are starting up an account. Their membership continues to climb to this day, 5 years after it's release. This is why it makes sense to market the game towards a casual market and to introduce game mechanics from their perspective and catering to their wants over the hard core player. However, in my own observations, the hard core players burn out and quit. The casuals stick around as long as the game is appealing to them.
I know several hardcore players who have stuck with a game from early beta to now, especially games with a fair share amount of content designed for hardcore like EQ, FFXI, or WoW. Hardcore players stick around as long as a game is appealing to them too. Not every hardcore player suffers from burnout quickly.
I don't get how you consider keeping "developers rolling out content constantly" a benefit to the person that's spending the time and resources creating the content. I'm sure Square would be happy as a clam if we all took 3 years to advance beyond the beta levels. Bug testing has nothing to do with being a hard core player, any player online in similar circumstances is as likely to find and report a bug as a hard core player, it's not like they check a persons play time before they glitch or anything. Whether that person found that bug after 10 hours of playtime or 80 hours of playtime is irrelevant, the circumstances surrounding the bug is all that matters.
No, but it's a benefit to casual players who will stick around longer as a result of a more polished game. Balance issues being fixed and all create a fairer game for all levels. Hardcore players are more likely to spend the time going to forums or reporting bugs they experience. If a casual player who doesn't have a lot of time encounters a bug, do you think they are going to spend a lot of their precious time reporting a bug? No, they'll probably move on to a new game if the bugs become gamebreaking. Hardcore players are more likely to provide direct feedback about bugs (and are more likely to encounter bugs due to their playtime) as well as being more knowledgable on game mechanics to report the bug appropiately. Casual players aren't typically forum lurkers or e-mail devs with feedback or fill out large surveys related to their play experience.
And of course you can't make a game only with casuals in mind, there does need to be an endgame environment. However, they absolutely can directly control how long it takes their playerbase to get there. If they want it to take a certain amount of real time, it will. They've honestly probably already got a model in place with a time table of when the expansions and such are coming out 5 years ahead...and they probably already have some preliminary work done on the first expansion now. Speculation on my part as far as that goes, but given how long these games and such are in production for, it's a safe bet in my opinion.
They can, but if they control it too much through punishing mechanics they can lose players as a result which is the point of all this. If you played EQ for example several punishing mechanics forced players to quit: EXP loss, hard corpse recoveries (especially in certain raids like North ToV, Vex Thal, Veeshan's Peak, Planes of Fear and Hate, etc.), extreme key requirements (Vex Thal, Sleeper's Tomb, Planes of Power progression), ridiculous contested spawns for important items (Ragefire), etc. World of Warcraft had the right idea, that's why they bring in more subscribers than Sony could have ever hoped for.
Everyone seems to be forgetting about one group of people, the hard core that don't care about this system. There will always be hard core players in any multiplayer game, really. Even MMOFPS's have their clans and 20 hour a day players. Someone in this thread (or maybe another here, I don't remember) has already done preliminary calculations to get the absolute most experience versus the least fatique in a week. These people will be this game's "hard core" player and they don't seem to be losing their minds and cancelling their preorders over it, they are figuring out how to best make the use of the time they have in the game. Like I said, whether it's a hard level cap or a limit to the speed you are able to advance, either way they are limiting you. Either way they are keeping you from leveling farther than they want you to at that particular moment, and that's totally their decision to make...just like it's totally your decision to keep paying for it.
Every hardcore player in my hardcore linkshell either completely doesn't like the system and feels it will effect them immensely or doesn't like the system, but feels it won't have much of an effect on their play since they like switching characters anyway. Either way it's punishing players rather than rewarding them.
And what about the casual players that don't even care about endgame content? The people that just enjoy partying and running around and hanging out? I know a few people myself that have been playing for years that have never even done any of the endgame content in FFXI because they just don't want to deal with being in a group with 20+ people trying to do some big thing like kill a Sky God or run Dynamis. They just want to run around and do their thing, regardless of how many characters they have at Max Level.
Even a casual can still hit surplus, but the mechanic doesn't benefit casuals. Unlike say rested EXP in WoW which gives short term bonuses to EXP gain, casuals aren't be rewarded. SE seems to think that in order to reward casuals you need to punish the hardcore. Do casuals even need to be rewarded for their lack of play time in the first place? Well that's a different debate entirely. Instead of directly rewarding casuals the hardcore are being punished and people are rightfully upset about it. I do think people are overreacting somewhat to this, it's not worth cancelling your game over and you can still make due as a hardcore with the surplus (at least in Beta Phase 3). However, FFXIV really doesn't even appeal to casuals in it's current state. It's a pretty unforgiving game, with no tutorials or explanation of what you should be doing. None of the features aside from guild leves rewarding huge EXP bonuses and the ability to solo are really benefitting casuals, which I find odd that SE keeps saying that the game is meant to appeal to casuals. I know a few casuals players and discussing the mechanics with them they have no interest in playing the game, which is sad because I do think it will be a great game (a few months down the road, as it's not release ready right now).
All in all, it all boils down to opinions and speculation, considering the game isn't out yet. All I'm saying is that it makes sense from a business standpoint. You said yourself, casuals are the largest market share. They''ll have their expansions down the road, but it's gonna take you longer to get there. If you really can't take being forced to play less than I guess FFXIV in it's current form isn't the game for you. I assure you there will be plenty of other players out there that don't mind the wait, and apparently Square cares more about their dollar than yours.
I really hate it when people make statements like "this really isn't the game for you" or "go back to WoW" or other sort of crap like that. You don't know me very well, so I don't think you have any right to make statements like that. We want to see FFXIV take off and do well as much as everyone else and we have every right to complain about a stupid mechanic like surplus. I plan on playing FFXIV at release and I plan on having to deal with surplus and the way I see it right now it's something that is going to be changed because nearly everyone hates it or doesn't care about it. I don't know anyone who is really in favor of the system as it is now. That can't be good for "their dollar" when all their customers are either apathetic about the system or hate it.
Its there game , there making it the way they want , if you dont like it then dont play its that simple really.
you are correct - it is their game and the devs can do as they please
even though this probably wouldn't even effect my game play as an explorer/crafter guy that doesn't care one little bit about leveling quickly i most likely won't be buying now
i just don't like pointless "rules" to force you to play a certain way, or in this case classes that you may not enjoy instead of the one you do except to be "fair" to everybody (though i still feel this might be due to lack of content and/or because of the cash for extra character slots)
if i manage to get into "open" beta (and by open i mean i ain't paying a sub to a useless to me website or jumping through hoops) i'd like to give the game a try
Look without some long winded responses they explained the system now its not as bad as it seemed 2 days ago and its a game breaker for some lets leave it at that. Go play the OB and stop taking other peoples opinions and experiences and go play it yourself its the only way you are really going to know.
First off, I would like to say I just don't have the time to read ever post cause this is a heated thread. So, if I am repeating anything that has already been said, my bad. I have read about surplus experience here, ff14news, ff14core, and massively. Nearly every MMO player has played WOW and liked it. In WOW you get 100% exp then you rest in a town and gain an exp bonus. The longer you don't play the longer the one gets the bonus for. This system is nearly the same damn thing, in reverse. Nobody whined that resting in a town gave them 200%exp or cried that I am not going to play anymore because other players get a chance to catch up with me, with less work. This topic is trying to make a hill of beans into a mountain. If you think about it, it's even a better system than WOW because you use this system to get 200exp all the time by changing classes.
Ikkei, magnificent post. I'm not sure what I could possibly add to it.
I will point out two things. One, this concept of games being shaped by their restrictions is very insightful. I think people forget just how many basic rules they are bound by as they play these games. They forget that a well-designed game encourages you to find the best solution within the rules. Just as a very simple example: you can't use a healing spell until its cooldown time is up. Solution: bring two healers to spam heals together or have another character grab aggro if the current target starts to take more damage than the healer can heal or save stun skills for the times when the healer is having the most trouble keeping up. There wouldn't be a point to complaining "How dare they not remove that cooldown restriction and let me play healer the way I want to!" The whole purpose of the rule being there is to shape the game, to define what it means to be a healer, to define what it means to work as a party.
On a semi-related note, there is no chance whatsoever that the game won't have a hardcore contingent who do everything from Hour 1 to level up as fast as possible. Someone's got to be in first place, and they won't be there by accident. No matter how restrictive the surplus system is, the top 1% will work to level as fast as the system allows, in a way that acknowledges the limits of the surplus system and works within those limits at maximum efficiency.
Two, people keep pointing out that even 16-hour-a-day hardcore players can beat the surplus system just by flipping back and forth between two jobs. That's pretty silly when you consider that there's no way they would make the surplus wear off that fast when you switch away from a class. But given enough jobs, yes, hardcore players will be able to advance quite quickly. The surplus system will shape their levelling style but it really will not slow them down that much compared to casuals. And for that reason, I agree that there's probably more to it than just a desire to slow down hardcore players. I mean, it would have to be; even in the latest iteration of their explanation, this is still a system that is turning many people away from the game. You'd sincerely hope that it's not there for the sole reason of trying (with limited success) to slow down hardcore players.
Here's hoping that you're right about the later stages of the game being unplayable by design without multiple high level jobs. That would be a somewhat stronger justification for a crazy exp-limiting system like this. If the first players got to that content with just 1 or 2 jobs available, they might cry foul and declare it unplayably hard for the simple fact that they haven't wrapped their heads around the possibilities they've yet to unlock. As you said, casuals look to the hardcore for their opinions on the parts of the game they're looking forward to.
First off, I would like to say I just don't have the time to read ever post cause this is a heated thread. So, if I am repeating anything that has already been said, my bad. I have read about surplus experience here, ff14news, ff14core, and massively. Nearly every MMO player has played WOW and liked it. In WOW you get 100% exp then you rest in a town and gain an exp bonus. The longer you don't play the longer the one gets the bonus for. This system is nearly the same damn thing, in reverse. Nobody whined that resting in a town gave them 200%exp or cried that I am not going to play anymore because other players get a chance to catch up with me, with less work. This topic is trying to make a hill of beans into a mountain. If you think about it, it's even a better system than WOW because you use this system to get 200exp all the time by changing classes.
First off, I would like to say I just don't have the time to read ever post cause this is a heated thread. So, if I am repeating anything that has already been said, my bad. I have read about surplus experience here, ff14news, ff14core, and massively. Nearly every MMO player has played WOW and liked it. In WOW you get 100% exp then you rest in a town and gain an exp bonus. The longer you don't play the longer the one gets the bonus for. This system is nearly the same damn thing, in reverse. Nobody whined that resting in a town gave them 200%exp or cried that I am not going to play anymore because other players get a chance to catch up with me, with less work. This topic is trying to make a hill of beans into a mountain. If you think about it, it's even a better system than WOW because you use this system to get 200exp all the time by changing classes.
I had the same view on this as you until I read the full article on FFXIVCore.com which is a developer interview stating that it would drop all the way to 0% EXP, that's right, 0%EXP, in WoW people get bonuses so they can catch up not you being completely STOPPED from advancement while others can catch up. There is a difference.
You play, hit the threshold, you now get 0 Physical EXP and 0 Rank EXP, you can change discipline to level up that discipline's rank so you are now still getting 0 Physical EXP but 100% EXP on that discipline until it hits the threshold with that discipline. Let's say you don't enjoy all disciplines but you've hit the threshold on all of those disciplines. You can no longer level at all until the week is over. You will only be able to start leveling next week.
See, if it was a bonus and wouldn't COMPLETELY stop you from leveling people wouldn't complain but as it completely stops you from leveling it's making alot of players unhappy.
I thought it was like bonus EXP too at the beginning but the fact of the matter is that it isn't. So you will be stuck at Level X for the entire week. Your stats and resistances can no longer go up. Depending on your playstyle though you can always get your Rank to Rank X with other disciplines if you want additional skills from those disciplines, if you don't you are stuck waiting till the next week.
First off, I would like to say I just don't have the time to read ever post cause this is a heated thread. So, if I am repeating anything that has already been said, my bad. I have read about surplus experience here, ff14news, ff14core, and massively. Nearly every MMO player has played WOW and liked it. In WOW you get 100% exp then you rest in a town and gain an exp bonus. The longer you don't play the longer the one gets the bonus for. This system is nearly the same damn thing, in reverse. Nobody whined that resting in a town gave them 200%exp or cried that I am not going to play anymore because other players get a chance to catch up with me, with less work. This topic is trying to make a hill of beans into a mountain. If you think about it, it's even a better system than WOW because you use this system to get 200exp all the time by changing classes.
First off, I would like to say I just don't have the time to read ever post cause this is a heated thread. So, if I am repeating anything that has already been said, my bad. I have read about surplus experience here, ff14news, ff14core, and massively. Nearly every MMO player has played WOW and liked it. In WOW you get 100% exp then you rest in a town and gain an exp bonus. The longer you don't play the longer the one gets the bonus for. This system is nearly the same damn thing, in reverse. Nobody whined that resting in a town gave them 200%exp or cried that I am not going to play anymore because other players get a chance to catch up with me, with less work. This topic is trying to make a hill of beans into a mountain. If you think about it, it's even a better system than WOW because you use this system to get 200exp all the time by changing classes.
Wait, did you read the NEARLY part? I'm sure you did, but you haven't written a single positive thing period or made an intelligent conversation that presents real solutions. So, how is the job with Arenanet or Ncsoft doing for you?
Well I'm not sure what has been said so far, read about 10 pages of this thread and it seems that most people are still getting this system wrong. This isn't a "bonus" exp system. You can NOT grind away on one class, this is not bonus. Feel free to check out this video if you want a very nice and clearly stated explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt8sp6rABFc
Was gonna type a long explanation here but just watch the video, it's very good! Watch a couple times so you understand the difference between physical level and class skill points. This system fits my playstyle personally very well but I understand the problems, watch!
heres a thought, since changeing stats seems to be merely for fixing the occasional build error, and not being able to reclass in less then a few days between meelee/mage, can we create multiple characters? say 3? 1 meelee dps, 1 tank type, and 1 mage? split crafting between them w/e. anyone have solid info yet on if ff14 is a 1 character slot game or allows multi toons?
"On a semi-related note, there is no chance whatsoever that the game won't have a hardcore contingent who do everything from Hour 1 to level up as fast as possible. Someone's got to be in first place, and they won't be there by accident. No matter how restrictive the surplus system is, the top 1% will work to level as fast as the system allows, in a way that acknowledges the limits of the surplus system and works within those limits at maximum efficiency.
Two, people keep pointing out that even 16-hour-a-day hardcore players can beat the surplus system just by flipping back and forth between two jobs. That's pretty silly when you consider that there's no way they would make the surplus wear off that fast when you switch away from a class. But given enough jobs, yes, hardcore players will be able to advance quite quickly. The surplus system will shape their levelling style but it really will not slow them down that much compared to casuals. And for that reason, I agree that there's probably more to it than just a desire to slow down hardcore players. I mean, it would have to be; even in the latest iteration of their explanation, this is still a system that is turning many people away from the game. You'd sincerely hope that it's not there for the sole reason of trying (with limited success) to slow down hardcore players.
Here's hoping that you're right about the later stages of the game being unplayable by design without multiple high level jobs. That would be a somewhat stronger justification for a crazy exp-limiting system like this. If the first players got to that content with just 1 or 2 jobs available, they might cry foul and declare it unplayably hard for the simple fact that they haven't wrapped their heads around the possibilities they've yet to unlock. As you said, casuals look to the hardcore for their opinions on the parts of the game they're looking forward to."
First off, thank you Disdena
Now onto your point. Agreed, there will be a hardcore population on FF XIV. Anyone doubting it should just wait until Japanese PAs come up with some 24/7 grind methods and other exotic forms of power leveling. It's gonna get dirty, as with every installment of Final Fantasy, particularly the only one released online so far.
Come thinking of it, I realize it's only logical for Square to be hiding the hardcore logics of the game, and sell everything with a "casual sauce". It's just the sauce, the obvious taste(s) and smell, it doesn't say anything about the meat's tenderness or the vegetables preparation (forgive me for this culinary image, I just watched someone watching Top Chef..) It's all about communication, and if Square's intend was, say, to get rid of the bloody hardcore image of FFXI, well I guess they've succeeded, regardless of it being actually true in the game or not. Right now, everyone's wondering if FF XIV is the most casual MMO ever designed. What if that assumption, in the end, wasn't all that true? Regardless, Square made a point with surplus: "casuals, we're gonna care deeply for you". I don't buy the whole miscommunication excuse. For all I know there are internet connections at the Gamescom... they could have posted, should they wish to do so. It was a choice. A deliberate acceptance of the buzz. Perhaps based on the assumption, often true, that there is no such thing as a bad buzz.
Communicating about the game, think about it: even if a feature is intended to serve both hardcores and casuals, in rather different ways of course (say, surplus xp for instance...), Square will only emphasize the casual side of things. Because that sells. They trust, rightfully so if you ask me, the hardcore players to find their own answers and communicate on them via fansites.
Now for sure they failed–big time–to make their logic appeal to the casual market so far. Ralsu on TenTon said "I think the data SE collected in beta showed them this game is not gonna be the mass appeal title originally hoped for", and considering what I also hear from inside sources in the betas, I tend to agree with him. It's just frightening to think that Square themselves has gotten so out of touch with the reality of the casual MMO market, while clearly aiming for it.
The only thing I'm sure of is that those "hardcore answers" do exist, somewhere, somehow in the game. In the midst of this polarizing release, I don't forget that Square is one who always brings cookies for the hardcore player population. It's part of the IP we call "Final Fantasy". Heck, Square's cookies are often too big for most to eat. I could point to FFXI of course, FFX too, and even FFXIII, which despite a totally casually-washed linear story content, is a die-hard hardcore game, if you 're going for a platinum trophee (Sony's way of spelling "full completion"), when compared to the RPG offer (from Mass Effect to most other japanese console titles).
If you ask me, the surplus system could even make FF XIV even more hardcore than any single-class grind model MMO. I even begin to see some die-hard EVE logics at work in Squenix studios (EVE is coincidentally the only "old-school" MMO to be still thriving today). We'll see how they tweak it in the end.
I really hate it when people make statements like "this really isn't the game for you" or "go back to WoW" or other sort of crap like that. You don't know me very well, so I don't think you have any right to make statements like that. We want to see FFXIV take off and do well as much as everyone else and we have every right to complain about a stupid mechanic like surplus. I plan on playing FFXIV at release and I plan on having to deal with surplus and the way I see it right now it's something that is going to be changed because nearly everyone hates it or doesn't care about it. I don't know anyone who is really in favor of the system as it is now. That can't be good for "their dollar" when all their customers are either apathetic about the system or hate it.
I'm not gonna waste time responding to the other stuff you posted, because it basically comes down to a matter of opinion and our differing personal experiences, and like I said earlier, everyone is entitled to their own opinions as far as this goes as a concept. Just like I'm never going to convince you that there are merits in slowing down the act of leveling itself and forcing players to "smell the roses" as it were, you're never going to convince me that not allowing people to grind to the end as fast as they want is game-breaking. I'm going to go ahead and agree to disagree on those points...
I will say, though, that (and I'm repeating something someone else said earlier, admittedly much more succinctly than I was able to) it seems like this mechanic is intended to remain in the game, although there will be an adjustment to it. Through the press releases I've read, it seems like S-E truly wants there to be a limit to wanton grinding, so complaining about the system as a concept is probably going to be about as effective as pissing in an ocean of piss. There are limits in every part of every game, you may not like them, but complaining about not being able to level over a certain amount per week without fatique is akin to complaining about not being able to level beyond the level cap in a given game, or, like someone else said in a previous post, not being able to use a certain spell earlier than developers intended. You rarely see someone losing their mind over these types of things because they accept it as being a strategic element of the game. Square-Enix apparently intends for you to plan out your time usage more effectively in FFXIV.
Which leads me to my next point: I don't need to know you personally to know that if you are totally against this system, and that since the developers intend to keep the system in place in some fashion, that you're going to be unhappy about it. Now, if it's something that you will "deal with" anyway, than obviously it's not game-breaking, is it? If it was game-breaking you would not play.
I guess I'm just getting tired of the "OMG THIS GAME IS SO COMPLETELY BROKEN I CANCELLED MY PREORDER BACK TO [insert game here]!!!!" that are filling any message board about this particular feature. I guess I just expect everyone to have the maturity to wait and see how it works in the finished game before they start going off the handle and mail-bombing S-E Headquarters or something. Given the fact that so many people "don't care" about the system, I would think that implies tacit endorsement of it, at least in theory. If it didn't, they would quit, just like the hard core players will inevitably quit when they can't sink 45 hours into their Gladiator in week one. If the masses don't quit in droves, than obviously the opposition is the minority, and most people seem to be taking a "wait and see" attitude on this.
From everything I'm reading, if you sink all your time into one class in this game you will be horribly gimped anyway, so in essence this in itself is forcing people to level jobs they may not have intended to level before. Surprisingly enough, I'm not seeing forum posts filling up with people pissed off that they have to level multiple jobs concurrently, which this system enforces anyway, so what is the big deal really? That S-E didn't release it more positively? Is this all about the PR?
"The new system will impose penalties on players who spend more than three hours playing a game by reducing the abilities of their characters.
Gamers who spend more than five hours will have the abilities of their in-game character severely limited.
Players will be forced to take a five-hour break before they can return to a game."
The limits imposed on WoW are pretty severe, so perhaps SE is hoping a lesser system will allow them to enter this market with minimal resistance by the Chinese government.
As I understand it, SE again will not have localized versions of this game, All players the world over share the same servers, with the help of the auto-translate tool.
If this is the case, a 'China Only' version is not currently in the business model. So if they want to include China in the list of playable countries, they must conform to the Chinese Law of Diminishing returns in MMORPGs.
Hence the 'Surplus system' and their attempt to spin it as a 'gameplay' feature.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
"The new system will impose penalties on players who spend more than three hours playing a game by reducing the abilities of their characters.
Gamers who spend more than five hours will have the abilities of their in-game character severely limited.
Players will be forced to take a five-hour break before they can return to a game."
The limits imposed on WoW are pretty severe, so perhaps SE is hoping a lesser system will allow them to enter this market with minimal resistance by the Chinese government.
As I understand it, SE again will not have localized versions of this game, All players the world over share the same servers, with the help of the auto-translate tool.
If this is the case, a 'China Only' version is not currently in the business model. So if they want to include China in the list of playable countries, they must conform to the Chinese Law of Diminishing returns in MMORPGs.
Hence the 'Surplus system' and their attempt to spin it as a 'gameplay' feature.
I doubt it. Not after the previous economy debacle in FFXI.
"The new system will impose penalties on players who spend more than three hours playing a game by reducing the abilities of their characters.
Gamers who spend more than five hours will have the abilities of their in-game character severely limited.
Players will be forced to take a five-hour break before they can return to a game."
The limits imposed on WoW are pretty severe, so perhaps SE is hoping a lesser system will allow them to enter this market with minimal resistance by the Chinese government.
As I understand it, SE again will not have localized versions of this game, All players the world over share the same servers, with the help of the auto-translate tool.
If this is the case, a 'China Only' version is not currently in the business model. So if they want to include China in the list of playable countries, they must conform to the Chinese Law of Diminishing returns in MMORPGs.
Hence the 'Surplus system' and their attempt to spin it as a 'gameplay' feature.
I doubt it. Not after the previous economy debacle in FFXI.
Seconded. Chinese Gil-sellers pretty much destroyed the economy of FFXI back in '05, and S-E spent a lot of time and money figuring out ways to get rid of them...
"On a semi-related note, there is no chance whatsoever that the game won't have a hardcore contingent who do everything from Hour 1 to level up as fast as possible. Someone's got to be in first place, and they won't be there by accident. No matter how restrictive the surplus system is, the top 1% will work to level as fast as the system allows, in a way that acknowledges the limits of the surplus system and works within those limits at maximum efficiency.
Two, people keep pointing out that even 16-hour-a-day hardcore players can beat the surplus system just by flipping back and forth between two jobs. That's pretty silly when you consider that there's no way they would make the surplus wear off that fast when you switch away from a class. But given enough jobs, yes, hardcore players will be able to advance quite quickly. The surplus system will shape their levelling style but it really will not slow them down that much compared to casuals. And for that reason, I agree that there's probably more to it than just a desire to slow down hardcore players. I mean, it would have to be; even in the latest iteration of their explanation, this is still a system that is turning many people away from the game. You'd sincerely hope that it's not there for the sole reason of trying (with limited success) to slow down hardcore players.
Here's hoping that you're right about the later stages of the game being unplayable by design without multiple high level jobs. That would be a somewhat stronger justification for a crazy exp-limiting system like this. If the first players got to that content with just 1 or 2 jobs available, they might cry foul and declare it unplayably hard for the simple fact that they haven't wrapped their heads around the possibilities they've yet to unlock. As you said, casuals look to the hardcore for their opinions on the parts of the game they're looking forward to."
First off, thank you Disdena
Now onto your point. Agreed, there will be a hardcore population on FF XIV. Anyone doubting it should just wait until Japanese PAs come up with some 24/7 grind methods and other exotic forms of power leveling. It's gonna get dirty, as with every installment of Final Fantasy, particularly the only one released online so far.
Come thinking of it, I realize it's only logical for Square to be hiding the hardcore logics of the game, and sell everything with a "casual sauce". It's just the sauce, the obvious taste(s) and smell, it doesn't say anything about the meat's tenderness or the vegetables preparation (forgive me for this culinary image, I just watched someone watching Top Chef..) It's all about communication, and if Square's intend was, say, to get rid of the bloody hardcore image of FFXI, well I guess they've succeeded, regardless of it being actually true in the game or not. Right now, everyone's wondering if FF XIV is the most casual MMO ever designed. What if that assumption, in the end, wasn't all that true? Regardless, Square made a point with surplus: "casuals, we're gonna care deeply for you". I don't buy the whole miscommunication excuse. For all I know there are internet connections at the Gamescom... they could have posted, should they wish to do so. It was a choice. A deliberate acceptance of the buzz. Perhaps based on the assumption, often true, that there is no such thing as a bad buzz.
Communicating about the game, think about it: even if a feature is intended to serve both hardcores and casuals, in rather different ways of course (say, surplus xp for instance...), Square will only emphasize the casual side of things. Because that sells. They trust, rightfully so if you ask me, the hardcore players to find their own answers and communicate on them via fansites.
Now for sure they failed–big time–to make their logic appeal to the casual market so far. Ralsu on TenTon said "I think the data SE collected in beta showed them this game is not gonna be the mass appeal title originally hoped for", and considering what I also hear from inside sources in the betas, I tend to agree with him. It's just frightening to think that Square themselves has gotten so out of touch with the reality of the casual MMO market, while clearly aiming for it.
The only thing I'm sure of is that those "hardcore answers" do exist, somewhere, somehow in the game. In the midst of this polarizing release, I don't forget that Square is one who always brings cookies for the hardcore player population. It's part of the IP we call "Final Fantasy". Heck, Square's cookies are often too big for most to eat. I could point to FFXI of course, FFX too, and even FFXIII, which despite a totally casually-washed linear story content, is a die-hard hardcore game, if you 're going for a platinum trophee (Sony's way of spelling "full completion"), when compared to the RPG offer (from Mass Effect to most other japanese console titles).
If you ask me, the surplus system could even make FF XIV even more hardcore than any single-class grind model MMO. I even begin to see some die-hard EVE logics at work in Squenix studios (EVE is coincidentally the only "old-school" MMO to be still thriving today). We'll see how they tweak it in the end.
If by hardcore you mean People who powerlevel, then no, i doubt there will be many. The surplus thingy if done right will force this kind of players to not try the game or adapt. If by hardcore you mean people who expend 10 h+ a day on the game doing a lot of diferent thins , not just grinding.i will agree there will be many.
People doesnt seem to realise theres a lot more past simply grinding your main class on this game, with open beta coming soon and release, i am 100% sure a lot more people who doesnt understand that the game isnt your regular mmo, will be displeased and leave .I dont forecast an easy release, what i do forecast is this game being an awsome MMORPG 3 months down the line when mayor thins are settled . If it goes like ffxi did there will be around 3 weeks of huge updates and mayor balances preparing the game for the rest of the content and to input the "end game".
Im so feed up of the terms casual , and hardcore. The only diference between the 2 is time constrains.FFXIV is trying to achive a balance on both to be effective with the time they do have.i considered myself a hardcore player on FFXI but not becouse i grinded 24/7 on the game like everyone so elocuently keep saying is what a hardcore is.But becouse i expent a lot of time doing everythin the game had to offer, and from time to time , exping my jobs, and had a big understanding of game mechanics , areas , boss battles , well experience of the game you could call it.But no i didnt grind 24/7, so does that makes me a casual?.Even when i DID expend a LOT of time loged on the game ?
The only people this system is going to actually hurt is powerlevelers, who bring nothin to the party but their lv, wich most of the times is weaker than a player with the right leveling curve(-more horisontal than vertical) 20 lv below this players.When people finally realise on FFXIV gear,skills from all the rest of the jobs put on the right slots matters as much as your number besides your name , then they will realise is not the same kind of mmo, and that stoping powerlevelers is in the long run a good thin.I cant understand what is the satisfaction on being lv 100 , when your wearing your level 1 equip.I dont whant leeches on our parties, hardcores dont whant leeches on their party , so who does actually whant powerlevelers on their game ?O yea , freedom , fight the power and stuf.
O but i know why, becouse in the current mmo market ,, you could get to 100 with those sandals you were given at lv 1( not so harsh but somewere around there) so does it always have to be that way ?
FFXI was hard /time consuming/Huge focus on group
FFXIV so far is hard/not time consuming/ sadly i might say up to this point not so well doing on party play, and THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT.they said they are fixing it so can only wait and hope.
And before someone comes " but i dont whant to be told what to do", all MMOs tell you what to do bound by the rules the dev make, so please , make a new point.
btw ikkei not trying to make a discussion with you in particular or anythin , i see your points.
From everything I'm reading, if you sink all your time into one class in this game you will be horribly gimped anyway, so in essence this in itself is forcing people to level jobs they may not have intended to level before. Surprisingly enough, I'm not seeing forum posts filling up with people pissed off that they have to level multiple jobs concurrently, which this system enforces anyway, so what is the big deal really? That S-E didn't release it more positively? Is this all about the PR?
Pretty much yes. If they said, We give you bonus exp for X ammount of exp gained every week, and then it will recover slowly when not grinding or loged of for rank skill ups.For Physical level we will make it just a bonus for X exp gained weekly, since in our current system we belive Physical level shouldnt be leveled to far from your highest rank class, hence why the bonus exp on rank is way higer than the bonus on physical.
Most complains would have never happened.So yea it comes down to SE having a terrible PR .
Having had some time to think about the system they are implementing, I think I actually like it more than the alternative.
All MMOs with linear progression (should) have a section in the design document about how long it should take a player to reach max level. How this is estimated varies, of course, but it's safe to assume that SquareEnix, based on their experiences with FFXI, base their time to max level on players playing as much as 8-10 hours a day (higher than average, but still a significant part of the population).
Okay, so let's say the they want time to max level from launch day to be 100 days at 10 hours a day. That's 1000 hours of active character advancement, the majority of which is most likely to be considered a grind. If anything, I think this is a low estimate, but the numbers are easy to work with. So, they base their experience curve on this model, and get a good idea of how much content and time sinks they need to keep most players busy for however long they want to play.
There are some issues with this, though:
Western players are going to see how slow their experience bars move, and moan about the grind
Gold farmers play 24/7 (multiple players on each account), get to high levels in less than half the time of others, and get to screw up the economy by farming high level areas for weeks before other players get there.
Many casual players will feel the game is too time consuming, and give up after seeing just a fraction of the content.
So much time is spent on the levelling process that many player either don't bother with content that doesn't give xp rewards, or feel they get left behind if they do take the time to explore.
So to solve this, introduce the surplus system. Keep the 100 days to max level requirement, but instead of basing it on the 10% of players who play 8-10 or more hours per day, assume that 80% of subscribers can dedicate an average of 2.5 hours per day to playing the game. Since people have more time certain days than others, the cap should be per week instead of per day.
The advantages compared to the slow xp alternative are obvious to me:
A majority of players will be able to keep up with the fastest possible progression (at least for physical level and one or two jobs). No need to worry about out-levelling or getting out-levelled by your friends.
Developers can create content that is "just for fun" for all level ranges, since players who play a lot will have time to experience it without feeling that they are falling behind. As long as the game has content that is fun by its own merit, and alternate ways to advance your character, the number that pops up every time to reward you for killing a mob should be possible to forget.
The surplus system, given the conditions above, only penalizes progression for the tiny part of players who play more than 10 hours a day. The rest will either advance at the same rate, or faster, and might even realize the journey can be fun when you don't have to worry about the race, and those that enjoy the race can still work towards being the first to max out all jobs. It should be impossible to reach the xp cap for all of them even if you play 24/7.
I think the main problem isn't the system itself, but selling it to players. An easy test would be to offer two servers. One with the surplus system and at most 250 hours of grinding to get to max level, and one without, but with 25% of the xp gain and 1000 hours of grinding to get to max level. Of course, players on server one would complain about the surplus system, while players on server two would complain about the grind, but in the end, I think most people would choose the surplus system.
I honestly think this sounds like a brilliant way to create a slow paced, and social game without excluding casual players, or rewarding people for choosing the game over work/school/sleep.
Everyone has to remember, this fatigue exp is not limited to a weekly timer, the official translation stated that if you log out or stop leveling, the fatigue will wear off.
I play for 5 hours in a day, i love off for 7 hours of sleep and 8 hours of work, i get home and eat dinner, shower and relax. So after 18 hours, my fatigue has gone down i can prolly play another 5 hours on that class without seeing and surplus.
People are letting this fatigue system turn them into retards.. Do they not understand how FFXIV jobs work? Are they that ignorant to even listen or research? It's like one dude drank a cup of retard juice and said it was good so everyone had a cup... Bunch of f'n retards
If you play wow and you lvl your toon to 80 but stop training in skills at lvl 40 is your class going to be able to tank at 80, dps at 80, or heal at 80????? The answer is NO you f'n retards... same applies to FFXIV if you don't get skills from another class, then you are useless to every group at max lvl you f'n retards.. So yea, you have to lvl another class to be of any use to anyone at higher lvl's. So go lvl your main till xp runs out then lvl another till xp runs out, get more skills, become the dps, tank, healer your supposed to be if that is the class you enjoy playing...
People are letting this fatigue system turn them into retards.. Do they not understand how FFXIV jobs work? Are they that ignorant to even listen or research? It's like one dude drank a cup of retard juice and said it was good so everyone had a cup... Bunch of f'n retards
If you play wow and you lvl your toon to 80 but stop training in skills at lvl 40 is your class going to be able to tank at 80, dps at 80, or heal at 80????? The answer is NO you f'n retards... same applies to FFXIV if you don't get skills from another class, then you are useless to every group at max lvl you f'n retards.. So yea, you have to lvl another class to be of any use to anyone at higher lvl's. So go lvl your main till xp runs out then lvl another till xp runs out, get more skills, become the dps, tank, healer your supposed to be if that is the class you enjoy playing...
So far as I understand it this surplus systems sounds great and I understand the way it will encourage more well rounded characters but the fact is, I never played FFXI, nor any other FF game for that matter. Some of us don't know how the job systems works. I can't think of any other game that does something quite like it. So, please explain how it works. All I know is that you can switch between classes outside of combat but beyond that I don't know anything. How does leveling one class effect how you operate in another class? How many classes do you need to lvl up in order to not be gimped at the endgame?
You only need to play one character, and at launch there isn't much endgame,that will be patched in later by all accounts. So no need to worry. just play the game as you find it and enjoy what is there.
Comments
The fact that the fatigue regens when your not gaining xp and that you can just switch classes. Makes the one week timer not really an issue since it is possible to play at a normal pace and never hit the threshhold of zero %.
At least thats what im gathering from the recent clarifaction SE. Allthough i could be misunderstanding it.
The only people going to be effected are the ones that want to only play one class. The game was designed to build your character using skills from differnt weapon types and by doing this most people will never even experience the 0% threshhold, and if your one of the ones stubborn enough to only play one skill set then your gimped and aren't going to enjoy this game no matter if they had never put the fatigue system in or with the fatigue system.
Quote from SE official clarifacation
"It is worth noting, however, that the reduced rate will also gradually recover while players are engaged in activities that do not yield skill/experience points. In this manner, it is possible for the threshold value to reset completely, even before the completion of the one-week timer."
you are correct - it is their game and the devs can do as they please
even though this probably wouldn't even effect my game play as an explorer/crafter guy that doesn't care one little bit about leveling quickly i most likely won't be buying now
i just don't like pointless "rules" to force you to play a certain way, or in this case classes that you may not enjoy instead of the one you do except to be "fair" to everybody (though i still feel this might be due to lack of content and/or because of the cash for extra character slots)
if i manage to get into "open" beta (and by open i mean i ain't paying a sub to a useless to me website or jumping through hoops) i'd like to give the game a try
Look without some long winded responses they explained the system now its not as bad as it seemed 2 days ago and its a game breaker for some lets leave it at that. Go play the OB and stop taking other peoples opinions and experiences and go play it yourself its the only way you are really going to know.
-My 2 cents
First off, I would like to say I just don't have the time to read ever post cause this is a heated thread. So, if I am repeating anything that has already been said, my bad. I have read about surplus experience here, ff14news, ff14core, and massively. Nearly every MMO player has played WOW and liked it. In WOW you get 100% exp then you rest in a town and gain an exp bonus. The longer you don't play the longer the one gets the bonus for. This system is nearly the same damn thing, in reverse. Nobody whined that resting in a town gave them 200%exp or cried that I am not going to play anymore because other players get a chance to catch up with me, with less work. This topic is trying to make a hill of beans into a mountain. If you think about it, it's even a better system than WOW because you use this system to get 200exp all the time by changing classes.
Ikkei, magnificent post. I'm not sure what I could possibly add to it.
I will point out two things. One, this concept of games being shaped by their restrictions is very insightful. I think people forget just how many basic rules they are bound by as they play these games. They forget that a well-designed game encourages you to find the best solution within the rules. Just as a very simple example: you can't use a healing spell until its cooldown time is up. Solution: bring two healers to spam heals together or have another character grab aggro if the current target starts to take more damage than the healer can heal or save stun skills for the times when the healer is having the most trouble keeping up. There wouldn't be a point to complaining "How dare they not remove that cooldown restriction and let me play healer the way I want to!" The whole purpose of the rule being there is to shape the game, to define what it means to be a healer, to define what it means to work as a party.
On a semi-related note, there is no chance whatsoever that the game won't have a hardcore contingent who do everything from Hour 1 to level up as fast as possible. Someone's got to be in first place, and they won't be there by accident. No matter how restrictive the surplus system is, the top 1% will work to level as fast as the system allows, in a way that acknowledges the limits of the surplus system and works within those limits at maximum efficiency.
Two, people keep pointing out that even 16-hour-a-day hardcore players can beat the surplus system just by flipping back and forth between two jobs. That's pretty silly when you consider that there's no way they would make the surplus wear off that fast when you switch away from a class. But given enough jobs, yes, hardcore players will be able to advance quite quickly. The surplus system will shape their levelling style but it really will not slow them down that much compared to casuals. And for that reason, I agree that there's probably more to it than just a desire to slow down hardcore players. I mean, it would have to be; even in the latest iteration of their explanation, this is still a system that is turning many people away from the game. You'd sincerely hope that it's not there for the sole reason of trying (with limited success) to slow down hardcore players.
Here's hoping that you're right about the later stages of the game being unplayable by design without multiple high level jobs. That would be a somewhat stronger justification for a crazy exp-limiting system like this. If the first players got to that content with just 1 or 2 jobs available, they might cry foul and declare it unplayably hard for the simple fact that they haven't wrapped their heads around the possibilities they've yet to unlock. As you said, casuals look to the hardcore for their opinions on the parts of the game they're looking forward to.
Oh dear...
I had the same view on this as you until I read the full article on FFXIVCore.com which is a developer interview stating that it would drop all the way to 0% EXP, that's right, 0%EXP, in WoW people get bonuses so they can catch up not you being completely STOPPED from advancement while others can catch up. There is a difference.
You play, hit the threshold, you now get 0 Physical EXP and 0 Rank EXP, you can change discipline to level up that discipline's rank so you are now still getting 0 Physical EXP but 100% EXP on that discipline until it hits the threshold with that discipline. Let's say you don't enjoy all disciplines but you've hit the threshold on all of those disciplines. You can no longer level at all until the week is over. You will only be able to start leveling next week.
See, if it was a bonus and wouldn't COMPLETELY stop you from leveling people wouldn't complain but as it completely stops you from leveling it's making alot of players unhappy.
I thought it was like bonus EXP too at the beginning but the fact of the matter is that it isn't. So you will be stuck at Level X for the entire week. Your stats and resistances can no longer go up. Depending on your playstyle though you can always get your Rank to Rank X with other disciplines if you want additional skills from those disciplines, if you don't you are stuck waiting till the next week.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......*GASP*......AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Wait, did you read the NEARLY part? I'm sure you did, but you haven't written a single positive thing period or made an intelligent conversation that presents real solutions. So, how is the job with Arenanet or Ncsoft doing for you?
Well I'm not sure what has been said so far, read about 10 pages of this thread and it seems that most people are still getting this system wrong. This isn't a "bonus" exp system. You can NOT grind away on one class, this is not bonus. Feel free to check out this video if you want a very nice and clearly stated explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt8sp6rABFc
Was gonna type a long explanation here but just watch the video, it's very good! Watch a couple times so you understand the difference between physical level and class skill points. This system fits my playstyle personally very well but I understand the problems, watch!
heres a thought, since changeing stats seems to be merely for fixing the occasional build error, and not being able to reclass in less then a few days between meelee/mage, can we create multiple characters? say 3? 1 meelee dps, 1 tank type, and 1 mage? split crafting between them w/e. anyone have solid info yet on if ff14 is a 1 character slot game or allows multi toons?
Additional characters cost extra; like FFXI.
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First off, thank you Disdena
Now onto your point. Agreed, there will be a hardcore population on FF XIV. Anyone doubting it should just wait until Japanese PAs come up with some 24/7 grind methods and other exotic forms of power leveling. It's gonna get dirty, as with every installment of Final Fantasy, particularly the only one released online so far.
Come thinking of it, I realize it's only logical for Square to be hiding the hardcore logics of the game, and sell everything with a "casual sauce". It's just the sauce, the obvious taste(s) and smell, it doesn't say anything about the meat's tenderness or the vegetables preparation (forgive me for this culinary image, I just watched someone watching Top Chef..) It's all about communication, and if Square's intend was, say, to get rid of the bloody hardcore image of FFXI, well I guess they've succeeded, regardless of it being actually true in the game or not. Right now, everyone's wondering if FF XIV is the most casual MMO ever designed. What if that assumption, in the end, wasn't all that true? Regardless, Square made a point with surplus: "casuals, we're gonna care deeply for you". I don't buy the whole miscommunication excuse. For all I know there are internet connections at the Gamescom... they could have posted, should they wish to do so. It was a choice. A deliberate acceptance of the buzz. Perhaps based on the assumption, often true, that there is no such thing as a bad buzz.
Communicating about the game, think about it: even if a feature is intended to serve both hardcores and casuals, in rather different ways of course (say, surplus xp for instance...), Square will only emphasize the casual side of things. Because that sells. They trust, rightfully so if you ask me, the hardcore players to find their own answers and communicate on them via fansites.
Now for sure they failed–big time–to make their logic appeal to the casual market so far. Ralsu on TenTon said "I think the data SE collected in beta showed them this game is not gonna be the mass appeal title originally hoped for", and considering what I also hear from inside sources in the betas, I tend to agree with him. It's just frightening to think that Square themselves has gotten so out of touch with the reality of the casual MMO market, while clearly aiming for it.
The only thing I'm sure of is that those "hardcore answers" do exist, somewhere, somehow in the game. In the midst of this polarizing release, I don't forget that Square is one who always brings cookies for the hardcore player population. It's part of the IP we call "Final Fantasy". Heck, Square's cookies are often too big for most to eat. I could point to FFXI of course, FFX too, and even FFXIII, which despite a totally casually-washed linear story content, is a die-hard hardcore game, if you 're going for a platinum trophee (Sony's way of spelling "full completion"), when compared to the RPG offer (from Mass Effect to most other japanese console titles).
If you ask me, the surplus system could even make FF XIV even more hardcore than any single-class grind model MMO. I even begin to see some die-hard EVE logics at work in Squenix studios (EVE is coincidentally the only "old-school" MMO to be still thriving today). We'll see how they tweak it in the end.
I'm not gonna waste time responding to the other stuff you posted, because it basically comes down to a matter of opinion and our differing personal experiences, and like I said earlier, everyone is entitled to their own opinions as far as this goes as a concept. Just like I'm never going to convince you that there are merits in slowing down the act of leveling itself and forcing players to "smell the roses" as it were, you're never going to convince me that not allowing people to grind to the end as fast as they want is game-breaking. I'm going to go ahead and agree to disagree on those points...
I will say, though, that (and I'm repeating something someone else said earlier, admittedly much more succinctly than I was able to) it seems like this mechanic is intended to remain in the game, although there will be an adjustment to it. Through the press releases I've read, it seems like S-E truly wants there to be a limit to wanton grinding, so complaining about the system as a concept is probably going to be about as effective as pissing in an ocean of piss. There are limits in every part of every game, you may not like them, but complaining about not being able to level over a certain amount per week without fatique is akin to complaining about not being able to level beyond the level cap in a given game, or, like someone else said in a previous post, not being able to use a certain spell earlier than developers intended. You rarely see someone losing their mind over these types of things because they accept it as being a strategic element of the game. Square-Enix apparently intends for you to plan out your time usage more effectively in FFXIV.
Which leads me to my next point: I don't need to know you personally to know that if you are totally against this system, and that since the developers intend to keep the system in place in some fashion, that you're going to be unhappy about it. Now, if it's something that you will "deal with" anyway, than obviously it's not game-breaking, is it? If it was game-breaking you would not play.
I guess I'm just getting tired of the "OMG THIS GAME IS SO COMPLETELY BROKEN I CANCELLED MY PREORDER BACK TO [insert game here]!!!!" that are filling any message board about this particular feature. I guess I just expect everyone to have the maturity to wait and see how it works in the finished game before they start going off the handle and mail-bombing S-E Headquarters or something. Given the fact that so many people "don't care" about the system, I would think that implies tacit endorsement of it, at least in theory. If it didn't, they would quit, just like the hard core players will inevitably quit when they can't sink 45 hours into their Gladiator in week one. If the masses don't quit in droves, than obviously the opposition is the minority, and most people seem to be taking a "wait and see" attitude on this.
From everything I'm reading, if you sink all your time into one class in this game you will be horribly gimped anyway, so in essence this in itself is forcing people to level jobs they may not have intended to level before. Surprisingly enough, I'm not seeing forum posts filling up with people pissed off that they have to level multiple jobs concurrently, which this system enforces anyway, so what is the big deal really? That S-E didn't release it more positively? Is this all about the PR?
Get ready conspiracy theorists...I wonder if this system is possibly related to the playtime restrictions that are required by China.
If I remember correctly, WoW had to implement a system of diminishing returns over time for China.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4183340.stm
"The new system will impose penalties on players who spend more than three hours playing a game by reducing the abilities of their characters.
Gamers who spend more than five hours will have the abilities of their in-game character severely limited.
Players will be forced to take a five-hour break before they can return to a game."
The limits imposed on WoW are pretty severe, so perhaps SE is hoping a lesser system will allow them to enter this market with minimal resistance by the Chinese government.
As I understand it, SE again will not have localized versions of this game, All players the world over share the same servers, with the help of the auto-translate tool.
If this is the case, a 'China Only' version is not currently in the business model. So if they want to include China in the list of playable countries, they must conform to the Chinese Law of Diminishing returns in MMORPGs.
Hence the 'Surplus system' and their attempt to spin it as a 'gameplay' feature.
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I doubt it. Not after the previous economy debacle in FFXI.
Seconded. Chinese Gil-sellers pretty much destroyed the economy of FFXI back in '05, and S-E spent a lot of time and money figuring out ways to get rid of them...
Pretty much yes. If they said, We give you bonus exp for X ammount of exp gained every week, and then it will recover slowly when not grinding or loged of for rank skill ups.For Physical level we will make it just a bonus for X exp gained weekly, since in our current system we belive Physical level shouldnt be leveled to far from your highest rank class, hence why the bonus exp on rank is way higer than the bonus on physical.
Most complains would have never happened.So yea it comes down to SE having a terrible PR .
Having had some time to think about the system they are implementing, I think I actually like it more than the alternative.
All MMOs with linear progression (should) have a section in the design document about how long it should take a player to reach max level. How this is estimated varies, of course, but it's safe to assume that SquareEnix, based on their experiences with FFXI, base their time to max level on players playing as much as 8-10 hours a day (higher than average, but still a significant part of the population).
Okay, so let's say the they want time to max level from launch day to be 100 days at 10 hours a day. That's 1000 hours of active character advancement, the majority of which is most likely to be considered a grind. If anything, I think this is a low estimate, but the numbers are easy to work with. So, they base their experience curve on this model, and get a good idea of how much content and time sinks they need to keep most players busy for however long they want to play.
There are some issues with this, though:
Western players are going to see how slow their experience bars move, and moan about the grind
Gold farmers play 24/7 (multiple players on each account), get to high levels in less than half the time of others, and get to screw up the economy by farming high level areas for weeks before other players get there.
Many casual players will feel the game is too time consuming, and give up after seeing just a fraction of the content.
So much time is spent on the levelling process that many player either don't bother with content that doesn't give xp rewards, or feel they get left behind if they do take the time to explore.
So to solve this, introduce the surplus system. Keep the 100 days to max level requirement, but instead of basing it on the 10% of players who play 8-10 or more hours per day, assume that 80% of subscribers can dedicate an average of 2.5 hours per day to playing the game. Since people have more time certain days than others, the cap should be per week instead of per day.
The advantages compared to the slow xp alternative are obvious to me:
A majority of players will be able to keep up with the fastest possible progression (at least for physical level and one or two jobs). No need to worry about out-levelling or getting out-levelled by your friends.
Developers can create content that is "just for fun" for all level ranges, since players who play a lot will have time to experience it without feeling that they are falling behind. As long as the game has content that is fun by its own merit, and alternate ways to advance your character, the number that pops up every time to reward you for killing a mob should be possible to forget.
The surplus system, given the conditions above, only penalizes progression for the tiny part of players who play more than 10 hours a day. The rest will either advance at the same rate, or faster, and might even realize the journey can be fun when you don't have to worry about the race, and those that enjoy the race can still work towards being the first to max out all jobs. It should be impossible to reach the xp cap for all of them even if you play 24/7.
I think the main problem isn't the system itself, but selling it to players. An easy test would be to offer two servers. One with the surplus system and at most 250 hours of grinding to get to max level, and one without, but with 25% of the xp gain and 1000 hours of grinding to get to max level. Of course, players on server one would complain about the surplus system, while players on server two would complain about the grind, but in the end, I think most people would choose the surplus system.
I honestly think this sounds like a brilliant way to create a slow paced, and social game without excluding casual players, or rewarding people for choosing the game over work/school/sleep.
Everyone has to remember, this fatigue exp is not limited to a weekly timer, the official translation stated that if you log out or stop leveling, the fatigue will wear off.
I play for 5 hours in a day, i love off for 7 hours of sleep and 8 hours of work, i get home and eat dinner, shower and relax. So after 18 hours, my fatigue has gone down i can prolly play another 5 hours on that class without seeing and surplus.
People are letting this fatigue system turn them into retards.. Do they not understand how FFXIV jobs work? Are they that ignorant to even listen or research? It's like one dude drank a cup of retard juice and said it was good so everyone had a cup... Bunch of f'n retards
If you play wow and you lvl your toon to 80 but stop training in skills at lvl 40 is your class going to be able to tank at 80, dps at 80, or heal at 80????? The answer is NO you f'n retards... same applies to FFXIV if you don't get skills from another class, then you are useless to every group at max lvl you f'n retards.. So yea, you have to lvl another class to be of any use to anyone at higher lvl's. So go lvl your main till xp runs out then lvl another till xp runs out, get more skills, become the dps, tank, healer your supposed to be if that is the class you enjoy playing...
So far as I understand it this surplus systems sounds great and I understand the way it will encourage more well rounded characters but the fact is, I never played FFXI, nor any other FF game for that matter. Some of us don't know how the job systems works. I can't think of any other game that does something quite like it. So, please explain how it works. All I know is that you can switch between classes outside of combat but beyond that I don't know anything. How does leveling one class effect how you operate in another class? How many classes do you need to lvl up in order to not be gimped at the endgame?
All die, so die well.