You are on my time too.

Povey151 · August 2010

So with any MMO with a grouping system things start to get cloudy when time becomes a concern.

Now the general opinon for a long time has been "play how you want to play and too bad for someone else if they dont like it"

Of course with random grouping becoming more and more prolific with MMO's this can no longer continue to be the issue. It's no longer a group of people inconveniencing someone else by telling them to play differently. It's 1 person screwing over a bunch of people because that person is playing innefficiently.

MMO's are no longer a niche for a sliver of the gaming population. They are as diverse and populated as normal society and thus societal rules should apply. If you arent going to be a contributing member then prepare to be homeless. I shouldnt be forced to group with you if you arent going to be worth the time.

Discuss, and remember that video games are a free time luxury, dinner time, school, etc. are not acceptable reasons to ditch a group, you should've planned around this.

Palebane · August 2010

All for one. One for all.

Sovrath · August 2010

Originally posted by Povey151
So with any MMO with a grouping system things start to get cloudy when time becomes a concern.

Now the general opinon for a long time has been "play how you want to play and too bad for someone else if they dont like it"

Of course with random grouping becoming more and more prolific with MMO's this can no longer continue to be the issue. It's no longer a group of people inconveniencing someone else by telling them to play differently. It's 1 person screwing over a bunch of people because that person is playing innefficiently.

MMO's are no longer a niche for a sliver of the gaming population. They are as diverse and populated as normal society and thus societal rules should apply. If you arent going to be a contributing member then prepare to be homeless. I shouldnt be forced to group with you if you arent going to be worth the time.

Discuss, and remember that video games are a free time luxury, dinner time, school, etc. are not acceptable reasons to ditch a group, you should've planned around this.

Ok, but the converse can be used as well.

Let's take it from my perspective:

if a player is going to bitch and complain over xp, over the need to treat the encounter like a job as opposed to a bit of fun, if that player treats failure seriously and can't relax then "prepare to be homeless".

I don't want people in my group to play efficiently or to be a "rules lawyer".

I want to be in a group that has fun, doesn't mind failing and is laid back.

What I don't want is for a group to be made and people to be going to the Auction House starting a quick quest, or making a deal with another player.

If one joins the group then one should be there in a timely manner. After that it's all about fun and I couldn't care less about efficient game play.

I'll take an imperfect party or an inexperienced set of players over a "rules lawyer" or "party lawyer" any day.

Demonspirit8 · August 2010

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Povey151
So with any MMO with a grouping system things start to get cloudy when time becomes a concern.

Now the general opinon for a long time has been "play how you want to play and too bad for someone else if they dont like it"

Of course with random grouping becoming more and more prolific with MMO's this can no longer continue to be the issue. It's no longer a group of people inconveniencing someone else by telling them to play differently. It's 1 person screwing over a bunch of people because that person is playing innefficiently.

MMO's are no longer a niche for a sliver of the gaming population. They are as diverse and populated as normal society and thus societal rules should apply. If you arent going to be a contributing member then prepare to be homeless. I shouldnt be forced to group with you if you arent going to be worth the time.

Discuss, and remember that video games are a free time luxury, dinner time, school, etc. are not acceptable reasons to ditch a group, you should've planned around this.

Ok, but the converse can be used as well.

Let's take it from my perspective:

if a player is going to bitch and complain over xp, over the need to treat the encounter like a job as opposed to a bit of fun, if that player treats failure seriously and can't relax then "prepare to be homeless".

I don't want people in my group to play efficiently or to be a "rules lawyer".

I want to be in a group that has fun, doesn't mind failing and is laid back.

What I don't want is for a group to be made and people to be going to the Auction House starting a quick quest, or making a deal with another player.

If one joins the group then one should be there in a timely manner. After that it's all about fun and I couldn't care less about efficient game play.

I'll take an imperfect party or an inexperienced set of players over a "rules lawyer" or "party lawyer" any day.

I teamed with this guy and the whole group wiped because of him so he is now blacklisted from any of future groupings...

Ceridith · August 2010

Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.

I'm starting to believe more and more that some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.

Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?

bobfish · August 2010

I don't care either way, just as long as people still group.

I'm tired of solo MMOs.

Demonspirit8 · August 2010

I think small groupings 6-12 is the best way to go. The reason alot of casuals get burned out on teaming is because of all the politics involved with the raiding process. I have never met a casual player who i had a bad experience with while doing small party content. The 30man stuff just kills when you get over zealous people calling the shots and alot of times you can clearly see where they play favortism with loot drops. I've done alot of raids and i honestly say i prefer the 6mans. Its a more fun and personal experience with the other members 1in6 is alot diff then 1in30

Sovrath · August 2010

Originally posted by Demonspirit8

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Povey151

So with any MMO with a grouping system things start to get cloudy when time becomes a concern.

Now the general opinon for a long time has been "play how you want to play and too bad for someone else if they dont like it"

Of course with random grouping becoming more and more prolific with MMO's this can no longer continue to be the issue. It's no longer a group of people inconveniencing someone else by telling them to play differently. It's 1 person screwing over a bunch of people because that person is playing innefficiently.

MMO's are no longer a niche for a sliver of the gaming population. They are as diverse and populated as normal society and thus societal rules should apply. If you arent going to be a contributing member then prepare to be homeless. I shouldnt be forced to group with you if you arent going to be worth the time.

Discuss, and remember that video games are a free time luxury, dinner time, school, etc. are not acceptable reasons to ditch a group, you should've planned around this.

Ok, but the converse can be used as well.

Let's take it from my perspective:

if a player is going to bitch and complain over xp, over the need to treat the encounter like a job as opposed to a bit of fun, if that player treats failure seriously and can't relax then "prepare to be homeless".

I don't want people in my group to play efficiently or to be a "rules lawyer".

I want to be in a group that has fun, doesn't mind failing and is laid back.

What I don't want is for a group to be made and people to be going to the Auction House starting a quick quest, or making a deal with another player.

If one joins the group then one should be there in a timely manner. After that it's all about fun and I couldn't care less about efficient game play.

I'll take an imperfect party or an inexperienced set of players over a "rules lawyer" or "party lawyer" any day.

I teamed with this guy and the whole group wiped because of him so he is now blacklisted from any of future groupings...

you teamed with me? or Povey?

tiki · August 2010

I miss the old days of DAOC with going to the primary camping spots to look at forming or getting into random groups. I'm sure that i'm not the only one that remembers the fins list.

Nekrataal · August 2010

Originally posted by Ceridith
Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.

I'm starting to believe more and more than some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.

Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?

I've been saying that very same thing for a long time now. Only, according to them, we can't tell them what they should or shouldn't do. They are pretty thick headed if you ask me.

TUX426 · August 2010

You make a good point. It's kinda like football...even if 10 players do their job correctly, that one that isn't can harm the entire team. While I don't like seeing everything "soloable", the casual gamer tends to find it more difficult to find a competent group than the more social or hardcore gamers do.

People can argue that MMOs are meant for grouping, but I'll contend that making things too group oriented will also drive away the casual gamer who simply wants to play a game where the option to join friends or family is available, not mandatory for advancement.

On the issue of ditching a group, I would like to think the technology exists to re-scale difficulty in the event a player is unable to complete a quest. As you said, this is simply a game, and as such, RL issues need to come first. I don't condone leaving a group because you're bored, but I also understand that the unexpected can (and does) happen.

Kelvrek · August 2010

Originally posted by Demonspirit8
I think small groupings 6-12 is the best way to go. The reason alot of casuals get burned out on teaming is because of all the politics involved with the raiding process. I have never met a casual player who i had a bad experience with while doing small party content. The 30man stuff just kills when you get over zealous people calling the shots and alot of times you can clearly see where they play favortism with loot drops. I've done alot of raids and i honestly say i prefer the 6mans. Its a more fun and personal experience with the other members 1in6 is alot diff then 1in30

As a casual player I prefer the smaller groups you advocate. They are certainly more fun in a social aspect. Also, I can understand why a raid leader might be biased toward giving better loot to more hardcore players. Being hardcore, they will probably make the most of it. Of course, it's not always right. This is especially true if the casual player is a former hardcore player and contributed significantly in the raid.

Sovrath · August 2010

Originally posted by Nekrataal

Originally posted by Ceridith

Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.

I'm starting to believe more and more than some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.

Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?

I've been saying that very same thing for a long time now. Only, according to them, we can't tell them what they should or shouldn't do. They are pretty thick headed if you ask me.

I think people are conflating certain WoW players with casual players.

There is a difference in expecting that a game will cater to one's whims and demands (or what they are used to) and being casual and wanting to just do the content that one can do.

Not every casual players is demanding that all aspects of a game fit their agenda. Most casual players just won't play a game that doesn't fit their playstyles.

SonikFlash · August 2010

When people join a random dungeon finder group in wow and in the first ten seconds start saying "gogogogogo"

I wish i could reach through the screen and shove their bawls down their throat.

Palebane · August 2010

Originally posted by Kelvrek

Originally posted by Demonspirit8

I think small groupings 6-12 is the best way to go. The reason alot of casuals get burned out on teaming is because of all the politics involved with the raiding process. I have never met a casual player who i had a bad experience with while doing small party content. The 30man stuff just kills when you get over zealous people calling the shots and alot of times you can clearly see where they play favortism with loot drops. I've done alot of raids and i honestly say i prefer the 6mans. Its a more fun and personal experience with the other members 1in6 is alot diff then 1in30

As a casual player I prefer the smaller groups you advocate. They are certainly more fun in a social aspect. Also, I can understand why a raid leader might be biased toward giving better loot to more hardcore players. Being hardcore, they will probably make the most of it. Of course, it's not always right. This is especially true if the casual player is a former hardcore player and contributed significantly in the raid.

I wonder if casual players don't enjoy smaller groups simply because it's easier to get loot. What if there was no loot? Would players even bother playing the game if there was no tangible reward?

SnarlingWolf · August 2010

Originally posted by Povey151
So with any MMO with a grouping system things start to get cloudy when time becomes a concern.

Now the general opinon for a long time has been "play how you want to play and too bad for someone else if they dont like it"

Of course with random grouping becoming more and more prolific with MMO's this can no longer continue to be the issue. It's no longer a group of people inconveniencing someone else by telling them to play differently. It's 1 person screwing over a bunch of people because that person is playing innefficiently.

MMO's are no longer a niche for a sliver of the gaming population. They are as diverse and populated as normal society and thus societal rules should apply. If you arent going to be a contributing member then prepare to be homeless. I shouldnt be forced to group with you if you arent going to be worth the time.

Discuss, and remember that video games are a free time luxury, dinner time, school, etc. are not acceptable reasons to ditch a group, you should've planned around this.

You do realize you are never forced to group with any particular person right? And because of that your whole argument is void.

If you CHOOSE to do stuff like WoW's dungeon finder, then you are CHOOSING to be put into a group with someone who not play as efficiently as you like. You are never FORCED to group with someone you do not wish to group with.

As soon as you are playing a game that actually forces you to group with any particular person your argument will be true, that time has not arrived and likely never will.

Nekrataal · August 2010

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Nekrataal

Originally posted by Ceridith
Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.

I'm starting to believe more and more than some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.

Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?

I've been saying that very same thing for a long time now. Only, according to them, we can't tell them what they should or shouldn't do. They are pretty thick headed if you ask me.

I think people are conflating certain WoW players with casual players.

There is a difference in expecting that a game will cater to one's whims and demands (or what they are used to) and being casual and wanting to just do the content that one can do.

Not every casual players is demanding that all aspects of a game fit their agenda. Most casual players just won't play a game that doesn't fit their playstyles.

I think you missed a key word. Here, I highlighted it for you in red.

But, yeah, you're are right.

Still... some ( a demographic that has been growing fast in the last few years imo ) really should go find something better suited to what they are looking for in a game.

Loktofeit · August 2010

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by Kelvrek

Originally posted by Demonspirit8

I think small groupings 6-12 is the best way to go. The reason alot of casuals get burned out on teaming is because of all the politics involved with the raiding process. I have never met a casual player who i had a bad experience with while doing small party content. The 30man stuff just kills when you get over zealous people calling the shots and alot of times you can clearly see where they play favortism with loot drops. I've done alot of raids and i honestly say i prefer the 6mans. Its a more fun and personal experience with the other members 1in6 is alot diff then 1in30

As a casual player I prefer the smaller groups you advocate. They are certainly more fun in a social aspect. Also, I can understand why a raid leader might be biased toward giving better loot to more hardcore players. Being hardcore, they will probably make the most of it. Of course, it's not always right. This is especially true if the casual player is a former hardcore player and contributed significantly in the raid.

I wonder if casual players don't enjoy smaller groups simply because it's easier to get loot. What if there was no loot? Would players even bother playing the game if there was no tangible reward?

If the content is engaging or fun to do as a group, then , yes. AC has lots of quests that players will do because it's fun to go through as a group. Most ACers on any given Focusing Stone run either already have the item or have far outlevelled the content. Gaerlan, Aerfalle, Frore and many other quests are just really fun group content. People have been doing them for little or no reward for years.

Most MMOs, however would utterly suck if the rewards were removed as the 'quest content' is just plain monotonous and boring.

Sovrath · August 2010

Originally posted by Nekrataal

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Nekrataal

Originally posted by Ceridith

Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.

I'm starting to believe more and more than some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.

Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?

I've been saying that very same thing for a long time now. Only, according to them, we can't tell them what they should or shouldn't do. They are pretty thick headed if you ask me.

I think people are conflating certain WoW players with casual players.

There is a difference in expecting that a game will cater to one's whims and demands (or what they are used to) and being casual and wanting to just do the content that one can do.

Not every casual players is demanding that all aspects of a game fit their agenda. Most casual players just won't play a game that doesn't fit their playstyles.

I think you missed a key word. Here, I highlighted it for you in red.

But, yeah, you're are right.

Still... some ( a demographic that has been growing fast in the last few years imo ) really should go find something better suited to what they are looking for in a game.

I didn't miss it, I'm just saying "that's what's happening". ; )

Ihmotepp · August 2010

Originally posted by Povey151
So with any MMO with a grouping system things start to get cloudy when time becomes a concern.

Now the general opinon for a long time has been "play how you want to play and too bad for someone else if they dont like it"

Of course with random grouping becoming more and more prolific with MMO's this can no longer continue to be the issue. It's no longer a group of people inconveniencing someone else by telling them to play differently. It's 1 person screwing over a bunch of people because that person is playing innefficiently.

MMO's are no longer a niche for a sliver of the gaming population. They are as diverse and populated as normal society and thus societal rules should apply. If you arent going to be a contributing member then prepare to be homeless. I shouldnt be forced to group with you if you arent going to be worth the time.

Discuss, and remember that video games are a free time luxury, dinner time, school, etc. are not acceptable reasons to ditch a group, you should've planned around this.

This is irrelevant in a solo friendly game. So what? Now the person can go make XP just as fast, and doesn't have to listen to you whine. And no one cares about his reputation, because, they can all do the same thing, any time they want to.

In a game where grouping was everything when it came to leveling, this stuff works out by itself.

If you are a douche bag, groups don't want you, you can't level fast, sucks to be you, word gets around not to group with you.

But they don't make games like that anymore, so again, it's irrelevant.

Ihmotepp · August 2010

Best grouping ever was DAoC with 8 in a group. That is fun.

tiki · August 2010

Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Best grouping ever was DAoC with 8 in a group. That is fun.

agreed, loved walking into CM in hib and running around to all the camping spots asking for a spot. It was never a big deal when someone had to leave because there were 3+ more people waiting to join in. Met some of my best gaming friends in random DAOC groups.

Ceridith · August 2010

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Povey151

So with any MMO with a grouping system things start to get cloudy when time becomes a concern.

Now the general opinon for a long time has been "play how you want to play and too bad for someone else if they dont like it"

Of course with random grouping becoming more and more prolific with MMO's this can no longer continue to be the issue. It's no longer a group of people inconveniencing someone else by telling them to play differently. It's 1 person screwing over a bunch of people because that person is playing innefficiently.

MMO's are no longer a niche for a sliver of the gaming population. They are as diverse and populated as normal society and thus societal rules should apply. If you arent going to be a contributing member then prepare to be homeless. I shouldnt be forced to group with you if you arent going to be worth the time.

Discuss, and remember that video games are a free time luxury, dinner time, school, etc. are not acceptable reasons to ditch a group, you should've planned around this.

This is irrelevant in a solo friendly game. So what? Now the person can go make XP just as fast, and doesn't have to listen to you whine. And no one cares about his reputation, because, they can all do the same thing, any time they want to.

In a game where grouping was everything when it came to leveling, this stuff works out by itself.

If you are a douche bag, groups don't want you, you can't level fast, sucks to be you, word gets around not to group with you.

But they don't make games like that anymore, so again, it's irrelevant.

Which is also why ingame communities are so terrible these days. No consequences for being a complete knob means that you will have a lot more idiots behaving like knobs because it's "funny" to them, or because they benefit from it -- ninja looting.

it's the "forced" grouping, and other social related ingame mechanics -- such as integrated crafting systems -- that promote and rely on player interaction are exactly what promotes players to treat each other with more respect.

And respect is exactly what this thread is about. Players who don't commit to groups and drop for little to no reason, have no respect for the people they're playing with. The occasional emergency is understandable, but there are many players who drop group for the smallest things, or because what they wanted didn't drop off the first boss, or the group isn't doing something exactly how they want.

There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.

nariusseldon · August 2010

Originally posted by Ceridith
Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.

I'm starting to believe more and more that some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.

Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?

Then don't group with them. They can play whatever way they want to. You have total freedom of not to associate with them. The world is big enough that you can find plenty of those who play like you.

nariusseldon · August 2010

Originally posted by Ceridith

There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.

They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.

I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.

korvisus · August 2010

[quote]I don't care either way, just as long as people still group.

I'm tired of solo MMOs.[/quote]

AMEN. half the time, unless you are hooked the hell up, you arent finding a group, MUCH less a good one.

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