I pretty much play games with my friends but my social interaction is limited beyond that. I don't enjoy partying with small groups because its impossible to get any rewards. I've found that the chances are when I group with others that they are in the same social community (guild, friends whatever) and will roll on each others gear, so being one of 2 people who need and can use that new weapon instead of being a 50% chance of getting it its more like 25% or less. Or people just roll on stuff they don't need at all.
So for me its far easier to just solo as much as possible, group only when I absolutly have to, or only with friends.
I agree with the statement about when you join a group you should be there in a timely manner. I have a rule that if after the party is fully formed and it hasn't gotten underway in under 10-20 mins, depending on how long the trek is to the location, I just bail. I have no intention of waiting while you AH your junk, finish a quest, or craft some stuff. I will only tollerate gathering last minute supplies in a pug. If you need some food/potions grab em, should only take 2 minutes at the most.
As for the "rules lawyer" while eventually this gets tired and annoying it is sometimes helpful for me as it helps keep me up to date of current metas and roles. In WoW when I made a tank I didn't know I was supposed to face the mob away from the rest of the group but I found out i was doing it wrong when grouped with an eliteist
I'm an old AC player and I don't necessarily need a fabulous reward for doing a dungeon or raid. I happy with just getting some friends togeather and doing a quest for the fun of it. I've probably killed the Olthoi Queen 100 times, or made mage armor 100 times. Its all about having fun, not having your ass ridden for every unconventional movement you make.
Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.
I'm starting to believe more and more that some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.
Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?
Funny enough I have been saying the same thing about a few of the hardcore MMO players. Their anti-social attitude seems completely out of place in social games like MMORPGs. They want to 'have their cake and eat it too' by making sure that the types of content they like are the only important ones in the game so the area they are willing to commit themselves to are the full range of content in the game. Any type of content they do not like (and thus don't want to be good at) they belittle.
I think small groupings 6-12 is the best way to go. The reason alot of casuals get burned out on teaming is because of all the politics involved with the raiding process. I have never met a casual player who i had a bad experience with while doing small party content. The 30man stuff just kills when you get over zealous people calling the shots and alot of times you can clearly see where they play favortism with loot drops. I've done alot of raids and i honestly say i prefer the 6mans. Its a more fun and personal experience with the other members 1in6 is alot diff then 1in30
As a casual player I prefer the smaller groups you advocate. They are certainly more fun in a social aspect. Also, I can understand why a raid leader might be biased toward giving better loot to more hardcore players. Being hardcore, they will probably make the most of it. Of course, it's not always right. This is especially true if the casual player is a former hardcore player and contributed significantly in the raid.
I wonder if casual players don't enjoy smaller groups simply because it's easier to get loot. What if there was no loot? Would players even bother playing the game if there was no tangible reward?
A real casual will enjoy any content that is fun to them and loot will be of secondary concern. Similarly the real hardcore will enjoy any content that challenges them and loot will be of secondary concern. It is the 'epeen' group that is the problem. They want the recognition of the real hardcore but want to base it on visible possessions rather than intangible acomplishments. At the same time they are mentally unable to enjoy content that does not make them gain 'status points'.
If loot was no concern, the casuals would focus on the content that was most enjoyable while the hardcore would focus on the most challenging content. Depending on mood those groups could easily cross-interact. The epeeners would be lost since they do not have the drive to do stuff just for the challenge and cannot do stuff just for fun.
Of course without loot the devs would have to use actually fun and/or challenging content to keep the player base interested. Content that was unfun and unchallenging would not be used and thus have no social relevance.
There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.
They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.
I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
Just because someone pays the same to access a service, does not entitle them to act like a raving jackass towards other customers.
Lack of respect is exactly why MMO communities are going down the toilet, because there are simply too many players, both casual, hardcore, and everywhere in between, that only ever think about themselves, and how they can benefit themselves no matter if it causes problems for other players.
Dropping group because someone else in the group did something wrong is widely variable. If you do it when the mistake was an honest mistake, then it shows a lack of patience and understanding from your part. If it was a huge mistake and the person was making repeated minor mistakes before, then it could be justification to leave the group. if the person intentionally did something to wipe the group, then it's understandable to leave the group to avoid said person.
It's more than just that though. There are people who drop group in the middle of a pull, or even fight, that causes a wipe, and they do it for no good reason. There are people who throw hissy fits and leave group if the leader wants to skip a few extra pulls, and on the flip side if the leader wants to do a full clear.
Sure, we're all paying our $15 a month to have access to a game. But we're all still people, and we're in it together. Just because you pay your subscription, it does not entitle you to be a selfish jerk.
The sickly ironic thing of it, is that there are so many people who complain that MMO communities are terrible today, yet they promote and perscribe to the kind of selfish playstyle behavior that is degrading positive social interation in those very games.
Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.
I'm starting to believe more and more that some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.
Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?
Funny enough I have been saying the same thing about a few of the hardcore MMO players. Their anti-social attitude seems completely out of place in social games like MMORPGs. They want to 'have their cake and eat it too' by making sure that the types of content they like are the only important ones in the game so the area they are willing to commit themselves to are the full range of content in the game. Any type of content they do not like (and thus don't want to be good at) they belittle.
Aye, and not to mention that Farmville has "work" in it. The most casual sort of game drawing the most casual sort of people, and you have to plant crops and what not. The question isn't "work", it's what "feels like" work. And bashing your head against a wall repeatedly in a test of endurance feels like work, no matter what you're doing. This can be found in any sort of game. It's not about "casual" or "hard core", it's about what's fun and what's not.
Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.
I'm starting to believe more and more that some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.
Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?
Funny enough I have been saying the same thing about a few of the hardcore MMO players. Their anti-social attitude seems completely out of place in social games like MMORPGs. They want to 'have their cake and eat it too' by making sure that the types of content they like are the only important ones in the game so the area they are willing to commit themselves to are the full range of content in the game. Any type of content they do not like (and thus don't want to be good at) they belittle.
Aye, and not to mention that Farmville has "work" in it. The most casual sort of game drawing the most casual sort of people, and you have to plant crops and what not. The question isn't "work", it's what "feels like" work. And bashing your head against a wall repeatedly in a test of endurance feels like work, no matter what you're doing. This can be found in any sort of game. It's not about "casual" or "hard core", it's about what's fun and what's not.
And to the OP. No, you are on my time. heh
This debate has the same problem as many political debates. People come up with two labels and then put any point of view under one label or the other. So anything not 'old school' is labeled as 'instant gratification' and conversely anything 'old school' is labeled as a 'grind'. As the debate polarizes it becomes harder for the participants to acknowledge that some of the features had aspects of both sides and fell somewhere inbetween.
The old spawn camping system had some very nice social aspects to it but was taken to such extremes that the social aspects became the only fun thing in it. In turn the more solo-friendly approach we now see allows the players to tailor their playstyle to the way that is most fun but in turn means that you have to work at promoting social aspects of gameplay.
There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.
They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him. I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
Just because someone pays the same to access a service, does not entitle them to act like a raving jackass towards other customers. Lack of respect is exactly why MMO communities are going down the toilet, because there are simply too many players, both casual, hardcore, and everywhere in between, that only ever think about themselves, and how they can benefit themselves no matter if it causes problems for other players. Dropping group because someone else in the group did something wrong is widely variable. If you do it when the mistake was an honest mistake, then it shows a lack of patience and understanding from your part. If it was a huge mistake and the person was making repeated minor mistakes before, then it could be justification to leave the group. if the person intentionally did something to wipe the group, then it's understandable to leave the group to avoid said person. It's more than just that though. There are people who drop group in the middle of a pull, or even fight, that causes a wipe, and they do it for no good reason. There are people who throw hissy fits and leave group if the leader wants to skip a few extra pulls, and on the flip side if the leader wants to do a full clear. Sure, we're all paying our $15 a month to have access to a game. But we're all still people, and we're in it together. Just because you pay your subscription, it does not entitle you to be a selfish jerk. The sickly ironic thing of it, is that there are so many people who complain that MMO communities are terrible today, yet they promote and perscribe to the kind of selfish playstyle behavior that is degrading positive social interation in those very games.
Your post was well reasoned, thoughtful and insightful.
Are you sure you belong on these forums? :P
At any rate, I would go on to say that in many cases it is simply your job to pull up the slack or educate in a respectful manner those that don't seem to understand the mechanics of the quest or the nature of the tactics the leader wants to employ.
We used to play on some fairly competitive basketball courts and picking up the people who were waiting was kind of expected if you didn't have a full team and sometimes you split your own team to even it out. On these courts if you lose you wait...so there was some drive to win and keep playing but there was always a code of sorts. If they were on your team they were ON YOUR TEAM.
We would occasionally play with the guys from the Special Olympics who held their regionals?/local? nearby and some of them were actually quite good (mainly behind the 3pt line) but some were a little trouble to mesh. The games were fun and while adding them as teammates generally meant you lost it was better than being a colossal jerk like some of the guys out there who refused to group up. Made beating them later that much sweeter.
pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.
I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
This is exactly why people want SOLO'able content in MMOs. My time matters more than my money tbh.
So with any MMO with a grouping system things start to get cloudy when time becomes a concern.
Now the general opinon for a long time has been "play how you want to play and too bad for someone else if they dont like it"
Of course with random grouping becoming more and more prolific with MMO's this can no longer continue to be the issue. It's no longer a group of people inconveniencing someone else by telling them to play differently. It's 1 person screwing over a bunch of people because that person is playing innefficiently.
MMO's are no longer a niche for a sliver of the gaming population. They are as diverse and populated as normal society and thus societal rules should apply. If you arent going to be a contributing member then prepare to be homeless. I shouldnt be forced to group with you if you arent going to be worth the time.
Discuss, and remember that video games are a free time luxury, dinner time, school, etc. are not acceptable reasons to ditch a group, you should've planned around this.
Ok, but the converse can be used as well.
Let's take it from my perspective:
if a player is going to bitch and complain over xp, over the need to treat the encounter like a job as opposed to a bit of fun, if that player treats failure seriously and can't relax then "prepare to be homeless".
I don't want people in my group to play efficiently or to be a "rules lawyer".
I want to be in a group that has fun, doesn't mind failing and is laid back.
What I don't want is for a group to be made and people to be going to the Auction House starting a quick quest, or making a deal with another player.
If one joins the group then one should be there in a timely manner. After that it's all about fun and I couldn't care less about efficient game play.
I'll take an imperfect party or an inexperienced set of players over a "rules lawyer" or "party lawyer" any day.
I teamed with this guy and the whole group wiped because of him so he is now blacklisted from any of future groupings...
This sounds very much like the schoolyard baseball refrain "You lost the game for us!" when the last batter strikes out.
What happened to the other eight players during the last nine innings?
They had '+9 vorpal mithral bats of curveball slaying' and he was using a +1 Louisville Slugger. I guess he didn't raid that dungeon 50 times before he came to the park.
So with any MMO with a grouping system things start to get cloudy when time becomes a concern.
Now the general opinon for a long time has been "play how you want to play and too bad for someone else if they dont like it"
Of course with random grouping becoming more and more prolific with MMO's this can no longer continue to be the issue. It's no longer a group of people inconveniencing someone else by telling them to play differently. It's 1 person screwing over a bunch of people because that person is playing innefficiently.
MMO's are no longer a niche for a sliver of the gaming population. They are as diverse and populated as normal society and thus societal rules should apply. If you arent going to be a contributing member then prepare to be homeless. I shouldnt be forced to group with you if you arent going to be worth the time.
Discuss, and remember that video games are a free time luxury, dinner time, school, etc. are not acceptable reasons to ditch a group, you should've planned around this.
Ok, but the converse can be used as well.
Let's take it from my perspective:
if a player is going to bitch and complain over xp, over the need to treat the encounter like a job as opposed to a bit of fun, if that player treats failure seriously and can't relax then "prepare to be homeless".
I don't want people in my group to play efficiently or to be a "rules lawyer".
I want to be in a group that has fun, doesn't mind failing and is laid back.
What I don't want is for a group to be made and people to be going to the Auction House starting a quick quest, or making a deal with another player.
If one joins the group then one should be there in a timely manner. After that it's all about fun and I couldn't care less about efficient game play.
I'll take an imperfect party or an inexperienced set of players over a "rules lawyer" or "party lawyer" any day.
I teamed with this guy and the whole group wiped because of him so he is now blacklisted from any of future groupings...
This sounds very much like the schoolyard baseball refrain "You lost the game for us!" when the last batter strikes out.
What happened to the other eight players during the last nine innings?
I was just poking fun at the guy cause he said he would rather inexperienced players then rules lawyer or party lawyer. But the other guys is right we had a +9 homerun hitting bat with a total GS of 5000000 and that dude only had a +8 bat and a gs of 4999999
I teamed with this guy and the whole group wiped because of him so he is now blacklisted from any of future groupings...
This sounds very much like the schoolyard baseball refrain "You lost the game for us!" when the last batter strikes out.
What happened to the other eight players during the last nine innings?
The flip side is that the guy could have been playing like crap all game, stroke out everytime he was at bat and made numerous errors while fielding. Of course that actually is tangental to the fact that he was the last out since even the best player on the team could have failed the ball at that point.
The key of course is to judge the average performance of the team against the benchmark of the encounter. If the entire team performs below the benchmark then it really does not matter which one of the sucks more since failure was the only option anyway. It is when one person is sufficiently bad compared to the others that an issue arises. The other have to compensate for the weak player and have to perform tighter than otherwise required. At the same time it becomes silly when the guy performs above the benchmark but the others are way beyond the benchmark and bitch about it.
There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.
They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.
I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.
I'm starting to believe more and more that some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.
Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?
Perhaps it's because they come out expecting to be "playing a game", and the hardcore types insist that only military-style adherence to regulations and the punching of a clock is acceptable, thus turning the experience into work.
As for experiencing the full range of content, where is it written in stone that in order for a mission/quest/scenario to be challenging, that it absolutely must become a test of a 'player's physical endurance, rather than their ability to play their character effectively? Personally, I have no problem committing hours of my time to doing something specific. But this is because I have *no responsibilities*, a pretty rare thing among us adults. I'm fortunate, but I'm certainly not going to disparage another if they don't enjoy the same freedom as me, and I'm not going to insist that they be blocked from content because they're unable to sign in blood that they can devote the next few hours to a GAME.
Some of you kiddies will understand this when you grow up, get a job, get married, and have kiddies of your own. And those of you already all growed up and have loads of free time to waste, consider that you are in a very enviable position and be thankful for your good fortune -- but keep in mind that it *doesn't* make you better than those who don't.
So with any MMO with a grouping system things start to get cloudy when time becomes a concern.
Now the general opinon for a long time has been "play how you want to play and too bad for someone else if they dont like it"
Of course with random grouping becoming more and more prolific with MMO's this can no longer continue to be the issue. It's no longer a group of people inconveniencing someone else by telling them to play differently. It's 1 person screwing over a bunch of people because that person is playing innefficiently.
MMO's are no longer a niche for a sliver of the gaming population. They are as diverse and populated as normal society and thus societal rules should apply. If you arent going to be a contributing member then prepare to be homeless. I shouldnt be forced to group with you if you arent going to be worth the time.
Discuss, and remember that video games are a free time luxury, dinner time, school, etc. are not acceptable reasons to ditch a group, you should've planned around this.
Ok, but the converse can be used as well.
Let's take it from my perspective:
if a player is going to bitch and complain over xp, over the need to treat the encounter like a job as opposed to a bit of fun, if that player treats failure seriously and can't relax then "prepare to be homeless".
I don't want people in my group to play efficiently or to be a "rules lawyer".
I want to be in a group that has fun, doesn't mind failing and is laid back.
What I don't want is for a group to be made and people to be going to the Auction House starting a quick quest, or making a deal with another player.
If one joins the group then one should be there in a timely manner. After that it's all about fun and I couldn't care less about efficient game play.
I'll take an imperfect party or an inexperienced set of players over a "rules lawyer" or "party lawyer" any day.
I teamed with this guy and the whole group wiped because of him so he is now blacklisted from any of future groupings...
This sounds very much like the schoolyard baseball refrain "You lost the game for us!" when the last batter strikes out.
What happened to the other eight players during the last nine innings?
I was just poking fun at the guy cause he said he would rather inexperienced players then rules lawyer or party lawyer. But the other guys is right we had a +9 homerun hitting bat with a total GS of 5000000 and that dude only had a +8 bat and a gs of 4999999
all in good fun.
Still, It's true, I don't mind playing with people who arent' "amazing' and seeing what happens. I really would meet with a party of good natured people, we try the encounter and if we fail we fail. To me it's the experience of trying that is enjoyable.
Winning is enjoyable too but it's neither here nor there. I am not one to exclude people because they aren't amazing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Generally my objectives and my fun come WAY before having to group with inarticulate, semi-educated, greedy, whiny dickheads I've never even seen before. I prefer games that allow me to turn off drive-by group invites, because nine times out of 10 the guy spamming group invites just wants something handed to him on a plate.
I'll happily answer questions in General Chat, at length if need be, and I'll ALWAYS group with RL friends and family, no matter what I happen to be doing at the time, but I never group with strangers.
Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.
I'm starting to believe more and more that some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.
Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?
Perhaps it's because they come out expecting to be "playing a game", and the hardcore types insist that only military-style adherence to regulations and the punching of a clock is acceptable, thus turning the experience into work.
As for experiencing the full range of content, where is it written in stone that in order for a mission/quest/scenario to be challenging, that it absolutely must become a test of a 'player's physical endurance, rather than their ability to play their character effectively? Personally, I have no problem committing hours of my time to doing something specific. But this is because I have *no responsibilities*, a pretty rare thing among us adults. I'm fortunate, but I'm certainly not going to disparage another if they don't enjoy the same freedom as me, and I'm not going to insist that they be blocked from content because they're unable to sign in blood that they can devote the next few hours to a GAME.
Some of you kiddies will understand this when you grow up, get a job, get married, and have kiddies of your own. And those of you already all growed up and have loads of free time to waste, consider that you are in a very enviable position and be thankful for your good fortune -- but keep in mind that it *doesn't* make you better than those who don't.
Was that last bit addressed to me, or waas it an over generalized assumption that people who don't mind or event prefer or enjoy a more challenging and involved game have to be kids with too much time on their hands. Either way, I'm married and have a job... no kids quite yet, and I still personally enjoy a decently involved MMO.
Furthermore, casual to hardcore is more than just non-grind vs grind. It can also refer to a variation in the depth and complexity of gameplay, how easy it is to get into and understand, etc.
But you still miss my point.
Not all MMOs should try to cater to the casual crowd. Just because the casual crowd believes that their way is the best and most satisfying, it's not the case for everyone else. There are many players who don't mind a more involved and complex game, but the problem today is that most developers want to cater to the casual crowd because it's a "wider" audience.
There is a history of more "casual" gamers asking for games to be made easier, auicker, more convenient, and generally dumbed down to thier personal level. And the industry has responded, a little too much if you ask me. So rather than simply pick a game that better suits their personal preferences and needs, they want to impose it on everyone by trying to force games down to their level. It's as ridiculous of a scenario if the "hardcore" crowd suddenly demanded that farmville be made more complex -- such as soil PH, rain fall/irrigation, pest control, crop rotation, etc, etc, to meet their needs.
"Hardcore" gamers needs options just as much as casual gamers need their options. There is no one size fits all formula that will appease every type of gamer. The closest thing is WoW, and look how many of it's own playerbase rage about aspects of the game on a daily bases. It's because the game tries to appease too many different groups with so many different things, so it does everything only passably well, rather than a few things extremely well.
In other words, don't demand that a game's mechanics bend to your whim. Rather, go find a different game that meets your playstyle better. The 'hardcore' crowd would take this advice themselves, but it's a little hard these days when the options are so few and far between.
There are many players who don't mind a more involved and complex game, but the problem today is that most developers want to cater to the casual crowd because it's a "wider" audience.
There is a history of more "casual" gamers asking for games to be made easier, auicker, more convenient, and generally dumbed down to thier personal level. And the industry has responded, a little too much if you ask me. So rather than simply pick a game that better suits their personal preferences and needs, they want to impose it on everyone by trying to force games down to their level. It's as ridiculous of a scenario if the "hardcore" crowd suddenly demanded that farmville be made more complex -- such as soil PH, rain fall/irrigation, pest control, crop rotation, etc, etc, to meet their needs.
You seem to be missing the point that a significant portion of the players 'who don't mind a more involved and complex game' are in fact those same casual players you blittle and look down on. Since they do not want 'instant gratification' or 'dumbed down' games your accusations of that seem rather silly and a bit crazed. In fact many would consider your group to be the ones who insist on dumbing down the genre 'to their personal level'.
There are many players who don't mind a more involved and complex game, but the problem today is that most developers want to cater to the casual crowd because it's a "wider" audience.
There is a history of more "casual" gamers asking for games to be made easier, auicker, more convenient, and generally dumbed down to thier personal level. And the industry has responded, a little too much if you ask me. So rather than simply pick a game that better suits their personal preferences and needs, they want to impose it on everyone by trying to force games down to their level. It's as ridiculous of a scenario if the "hardcore" crowd suddenly demanded that farmville be made more complex -- such as soil PH, rain fall/irrigation, pest control, crop rotation, etc, etc, to meet their needs.
You seem to be missing the point that a significant portion of the players 'who don't mind a more involved and complex game' are in fact those same casual players you blittle and look down on. Since they do not want 'instant gratification' or 'dumbed down' games your accusations of that seem rather silly and a bit crazed. In fact many would consider your group to be the ones who insist on dumbing down the genre 'to their personal level'.
You're making assumptions about my position and using those assumptions to label me negatively.
In my previous post I stated that casual means different things to different people. To many, players are either casual or hardcore, and where the tipping like between them is slides. To others, like me, casual and hardcore are extremes, and the majority of players are just that, regular games who share both casual and hardcore aspects between them to varying degrees.
That said, there is a vocal minority within the casual crowd that pushes for things that follow the trend of instant gratification and solo group play. That's not to say that certain aspects of what they are demanding don't have merrit. There is a reasonable case for reducing grind, making certain things like grouping easier to assemble and coordinate, etc. However, the degree to which the vocal fringe wants, is often going too far for the other side of the spectrum, and furthermore is typically at odds with what the other end of the spectrum would like.
Which is why, as I previously stated, there is no "one size fits all" MMO. You cannot fully cater to both ends of the spectrum, and everywhere inbetween at the same time. You can appease them to varying degrees, but doing so will always diminish the other end in some manner.
I'm not saying that one end of the spectrum of playstyle or anything in between is inherently right or wrong. It's all subjective on a case by case basis per each gamer. Which is why there should be valid options for gamers of varying degrees for each player, varying in both the amount of commitment required, and complexity in gameplay.
What is wrong, is when one camp tries to force a particular MMO away from it's initial perspective, or the genre in general toward a single style of gameplay. This is what has left many of the more "hardcore" -- which includes many regaular gamers who don't mind more complex games and putting in some effort -- bitter, because the industry has been increasingly shifting towards reduced complexity and instant gratification... in short, being dumbed down for the "masses".
To tie this in full circle to the main point of this thread, since this has gotten way off topic... is that many of us need to respect other players more. For this point specifically, we need to respect the fact that what is enjoyable for us isn't enjoyable to others, and that everyone's view when it comes to MMOs is a valid perspective. Expanding on that thought, we shouldn't expect others to align themselves to our style of gameplay. If a particular game doesn't meet our "needs", such as being too casual or too hardcore, then we should just move on and not play said MMO.
Just because someone pays the same to access a service, does not entitle them to act like a raving jackass towards other customers.
That is just wishful thinking. No one, not you, not the developers, have the resource to monitor and control behavioral online. In fact, they ALL behave exactly the way they want to. Nothing can be done about it, except, of course, get away from them and NOT play.
Dropping group because someone else in the group did something wrong is widely variable. If you do it when the mistake was an honest mistake, then it shows a lack of patience and understanding from your part. If it was a huge mistake and the person was making repeated minor mistakes before, then it could be justification to leave the group. if the person intentionally did something to wipe the group, then it's understandable to leave the group to avoid said person.
Yeah, so i have a lack of patience and understanding for some unknown players. Sue me. Do I want to spend valuable time to understand every newbie who don't know the basic 5-man dungeons? NO .. or at least not every day.
It's more than just that though. There are people who drop group in the middle of a pull, or even fight, that causes a wipe, and they do it for no good reason. There are people who throw hissy fits and leave group if the leader wants to skip a few extra pulls, and on the flip side if the leader wants to do a full clear.
People want different things. What is wrong with the people who want full clear NOT grouping with people who want a speed run? There are plenty of people out there. Find the ones who have the same goals.
Sure, we're all paying our $15 a month to have access to a game. But we're all still people, and we're in it together. Just because you pay your subscription, it does not entitle you to be a selfish jerk.
We are CERTAINLY not in it together. I am certainly NOT in it with other 11.5M players. I may be in it with my guilds (i am in a few), my friends and my family, but cetainly not with any joe or bob out there. And once again, it is empty to say "it does not entitle to ....". The truth is, there is no behavior control online, like it or not.
The sickly ironic thing of it, is that there are so many people who complain that MMO communities are terrible today, yet they promote and perscribe to the kind of selfish playstyle behavior that is degrading positive social interation in those very games.
I never complained. I think it is just fine and i am having fun online.
There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.
They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.
I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
If the game or dungeon are so easy that one wipe is unacceptable, why even play?
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Well, i've been both casual and hardcore before, been a "noob" and a "pro", a troll and also a rage quitter... i've pretty much experienced lots of different scenarios, and there is just one thing i can say about groups: find similar people to join your fights.
You know, all that crap about achiever, explorer, fighter... it really works. I would also add one thing: find if your mate is playing mainly for the immersion (most role players), mainly for fun (most casuals) or mainly for the sense of accomplishment (most hardcores in their own areas, like pvp, pve, achievments or other tasks).
The hardcore vs. casual debate has no end, so i'd say to avoid people u don't want to be around with. Of course this isn't possible if you are using the Random Dungeon Finder, but these dungeons are so trivial (u just NEED to do once a day if you are not beginning, come on) they should be ran just for fun.
Play as you like or just quit if you feel like it, but don't nitpick on the casuals or start to call the hardcore a no life nerd, it can ruin other people game experiences. Everybody is paying the same amount to play the same game, the way one plays it should not be questioned, so just be polite and seek your kind of players.
Playing: Starcraft II. Played: Tibia, Ragnarok Online, Ultima Online, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft. Wanna play: Guild Wars 2, SW:TOR, Final Fantasy XIV, Diablo III.
Just because someone pays the same to access a service, does not entitle them to act like a raving jackass towards other customers.
That is just wishful thinking. No one, not you, not the developers, have the resource to monitor and control behavioral online. In fact, they ALL behave exactly the way they want to. Nothing can be done about it, except, of course, get away from them and NOT play.
Dropping group because someone else in the group did something wrong is widely variable. If you do it when the mistake was an honest mistake, then it shows a lack of patience and understanding from your part. If it was a huge mistake and the person was making repeated minor mistakes before, then it could be justification to leave the group. if the person intentionally did something to wipe the group, then it's understandable to leave the group to avoid said person.
Yeah, so i have a lack of patience and understanding for some unknown players. Sue me. Do I want to spend valuable time to understand every newbie who don't know the basic 5-man dungeons? NO .. or at least not every day.
It's more than just that though. There are people who drop group in the middle of a pull, or even fight, that causes a wipe, and they do it for no good reason. There are people who throw hissy fits and leave group if the leader wants to skip a few extra pulls, and on the flip side if the leader wants to do a full clear.
People want different things. What is wrong with the people who want full clear NOT grouping with people who want a speed run? There are plenty of people out there. Find the ones who have the same goals.
Sure, we're all paying our $15 a month to have access to a game. But we're all still people, and we're in it together. Just because you pay your subscription, it does not entitle you to be a selfish jerk.
We are CERTAINLY not in it together. I am certainly NOT in it with other 11.5M players. I may be in it with my guilds (i am in a few), my friends and my family, but cetainly not with any joe or bob out there. And once again, it is empty to say "it does not entitle to ....". The truth is, there is no behavior control online, like it or not.
The sickly ironic thing of it, is that there are so many people who complain that MMO communities are terrible today, yet they promote and perscribe to the kind of selfish playstyle behavior that is degrading positive social interation in those very games.
I never complained. I think it is just fine and i am having fun online.
Wow you sir are the exact definition why I believe MMO communities have become utter garbage as of late. It used to be fun to help out your fellow gamers and teach them new encounters and experience content together. I don't necessarily blame you directly, but I blame the current game design trend for attracting gamers like you.
Edit: I also don't support the OP's stance entirely either. His perspective is far too draconian, and the guy I quoted is far too anarchical. Basically i just see it as the OP states this is how the party should work, like it or get out. While this guy above states this is how I play like it or I'm gone. Is there no damn middle ground here anymore?
I just believe that players should respect each other and strive to build a better community first and foremost. Game mechanics should promote this naturally by giving incentives towards community building and not individual gain. It should be 50% Community progression and 50% individual progression IMO. DAoC is one of the few PvP titles IMO that has a good community because of this. Most modern MMO's are 100% individual progression, so no wonder it has bred a community that doesn't give a damn about their fellow gamer.
There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.
They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.
I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
Im curious, are you a tank or a healer?
Because dps that join groups dont have that luxury. I recently leveled a warlock alt to 80 and now a disc priest, and I can say without a doubt, tanks and healers are the only ones that will turn there nose up and leave the group.
If a dps does that, 20+ mins is much longer than an instant que.
Personally, I try to suck it up and make it happen. As the healer I have a large control of how well everything goes and if somethings out of place like a tank not waiting for me to get mana, charge out of my los, dps trying to tank, debuffs not being removed, etc etc-- then I say something. Its not too often that even in a bad group, I cant get through the dungeon.
What you are making a big deal about is simply the difference of opinion about what is fun in an mmo. Not everyone needs to win to have fun. You would do well to understand that people whom are different are ok. Simply don`t associate yourself with them in the future if their idea of a good time bothers you. I hope you realize that what you are saying is very, very self centered, and the foundation of all conflict, large scale and small. Neither what you want or what they want out of the game is wrong. If you wish people to tolerate what you want, you should also tolerate what others want. If neither party has the capacity to do that, then you are nothing but animals, and will soon be shooting eachother dead in the street. If that`s what you want, I`ll be sure to stay as far away from you both as possible as you extinguish each other and die lonely.
People will be different. Why is that such a shocker for everyone?
We humans have this emotion called empathy, and if you get past the fact that what is happening isnt what you want, you will actually find yourself enjoying it too when we see/hear that person laughing and having fun. It`s the same reason why we also feel sad when we see a complete stranger cry. Its quite useful.
Comments
I'll start by sayign that I am a casual gamer.
I pretty much play games with my friends but my social interaction is limited beyond that. I don't enjoy partying with small groups because its impossible to get any rewards. I've found that the chances are when I group with others that they are in the same social community (guild, friends whatever) and will roll on each others gear, so being one of 2 people who need and can use that new weapon instead of being a 50% chance of getting it its more like 25% or less. Or people just roll on stuff they don't need at all.
So for me its far easier to just solo as much as possible, group only when I absolutly have to, or only with friends.
I agree with the statement about when you join a group you should be there in a timely manner. I have a rule that if after the party is fully formed and it hasn't gotten underway in under 10-20 mins, depending on how long the trek is to the location, I just bail. I have no intention of waiting while you AH your junk, finish a quest, or craft some stuff. I will only tollerate gathering last minute supplies in a pug. If you need some food/potions grab em, should only take 2 minutes at the most.
As for the "rules lawyer" while eventually this gets tired and annoying it is sometimes helpful for me as it helps keep me up to date of current metas and roles. In WoW when I made a tank I didn't know I was supposed to face the mob away from the rest of the group but I found out i was doing it wrong when grouped with an eliteist
I'm an old AC player and I don't necessarily need a fabulous reward for doing a dungeon or raid. I happy with just getting some friends togeather and doing a quest for the fun of it. I've probably killed the Olthoi Queen 100 times, or made mage armor 100 times. Its all about having fun, not having your ass ridden for every unconventional movement you make.
Funny enough I have been saying the same thing about a few of the hardcore MMO players. Their anti-social attitude seems completely out of place in social games like MMORPGs. They want to 'have their cake and eat it too' by making sure that the types of content they like are the only important ones in the game so the area they are willing to commit themselves to are the full range of content in the game. Any type of content they do not like (and thus don't want to be good at) they belittle.
A real casual will enjoy any content that is fun to them and loot will be of secondary concern. Similarly the real hardcore will enjoy any content that challenges them and loot will be of secondary concern. It is the 'epeen' group that is the problem. They want the recognition of the real hardcore but want to base it on visible possessions rather than intangible acomplishments. At the same time they are mentally unable to enjoy content that does not make them gain 'status points'.
If loot was no concern, the casuals would focus on the content that was most enjoyable while the hardcore would focus on the most challenging content. Depending on mood those groups could easily cross-interact. The epeeners would be lost since they do not have the drive to do stuff just for the challenge and cannot do stuff just for fun.
Of course without loot the devs would have to use actually fun and/or challenging content to keep the player base interested. Content that was unfun and unchallenging would not be used and thus have no social relevance.
Just because someone pays the same to access a service, does not entitle them to act like a raving jackass towards other customers.
Lack of respect is exactly why MMO communities are going down the toilet, because there are simply too many players, both casual, hardcore, and everywhere in between, that only ever think about themselves, and how they can benefit themselves no matter if it causes problems for other players.
Dropping group because someone else in the group did something wrong is widely variable. If you do it when the mistake was an honest mistake, then it shows a lack of patience and understanding from your part. If it was a huge mistake and the person was making repeated minor mistakes before, then it could be justification to leave the group. if the person intentionally did something to wipe the group, then it's understandable to leave the group to avoid said person.
It's more than just that though. There are people who drop group in the middle of a pull, or even fight, that causes a wipe, and they do it for no good reason. There are people who throw hissy fits and leave group if the leader wants to skip a few extra pulls, and on the flip side if the leader wants to do a full clear.
Sure, we're all paying our $15 a month to have access to a game. But we're all still people, and we're in it together. Just because you pay your subscription, it does not entitle you to be a selfish jerk.
The sickly ironic thing of it, is that there are so many people who complain that MMO communities are terrible today, yet they promote and perscribe to the kind of selfish playstyle behavior that is degrading positive social interation in those very games.
Aye, and not to mention that Farmville has "work" in it. The most casual sort of game drawing the most casual sort of people, and you have to plant crops and what not. The question isn't "work", it's what "feels like" work. And bashing your head against a wall repeatedly in a test of endurance feels like work, no matter what you're doing. This can be found in any sort of game. It's not about "casual" or "hard core", it's about what's fun and what's not.
And to the OP. No, you are on my time. heh
Once upon a time....
This debate has the same problem as many political debates. People come up with two labels and then put any point of view under one label or the other. So anything not 'old school' is labeled as 'instant gratification' and conversely anything 'old school' is labeled as a 'grind'. As the debate polarizes it becomes harder for the participants to acknowledge that some of the features had aspects of both sides and fell somewhere inbetween.
The old spawn camping system had some very nice social aspects to it but was taken to such extremes that the social aspects became the only fun thing in it. In turn the more solo-friendly approach we now see allows the players to tailor their playstyle to the way that is most fun but in turn means that you have to work at promoting social aspects of gameplay.
Your post was well reasoned, thoughtful and insightful.
Are you sure you belong on these forums? :P
At any rate, I would go on to say that in many cases it is simply your job to pull up the slack or educate in a respectful manner those that don't seem to understand the mechanics of the quest or the nature of the tactics the leader wants to employ.
We used to play on some fairly competitive basketball courts and picking up the people who were waiting was kind of expected if you didn't have a full team and sometimes you split your own team to even it out. On these courts if you lose you wait...so there was some drive to win and keep playing but there was always a code of sorts. If they were on your team they were ON YOUR TEAM.
We would occasionally play with the guys from the Special Olympics who held their regionals?/local? nearby and some of them were actually quite good (mainly behind the 3pt line) but some were a little trouble to mesh. The games were fun and while adding them as teammates generally meant you lost it was better than being a colossal jerk like some of the guys out there who refused to group up. Made beating them later that much sweeter.
Anyway, went off on a tangent there.
This is exactly why people want SOLO'able content in MMOs. My time matters more than my money tbh.
This sounds very much like the schoolyard baseball refrain "You lost the game for us!" when the last batter strikes out.
What happened to the other eight players during the last nine innings?
They had '+9 vorpal mithral bats of curveball slaying' and he was using a +1 Louisville Slugger. I guess he didn't raid that dungeon 50 times before he came to the park.
I was just poking fun at the guy cause he said he would rather inexperienced players then rules lawyer or party lawyer. But the other guys is right we had a +9 homerun hitting bat with a total GS of 5000000 and that dude only had a +8 bat and a gs of 4999999
The flip side is that the guy could have been playing like crap all game, stroke out everytime he was at bat and made numerous errors while fielding. Of course that actually is tangental to the fact that he was the last out since even the best player on the team could have failed the ball at that point.
The key of course is to judge the average performance of the team against the benchmark of the encounter. If the entire team performs below the benchmark then it really does not matter which one of the sucks more since failure was the only option anyway. It is when one person is sufficiently bad compared to the others that an issue arises. The other have to compensate for the weak player and have to perform tighter than otherwise required. At the same time it becomes silly when the guy performs above the benchmark but the others are way beyond the benchmark and bitch about it.
DPS, obviously
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
Perhaps it's because they come out expecting to be "playing a game", and the hardcore types insist that only military-style adherence to regulations and the punching of a clock is acceptable, thus turning the experience into work.
As for experiencing the full range of content, where is it written in stone that in order for a mission/quest/scenario to be challenging, that it absolutely must become a test of a 'player's physical endurance, rather than their ability to play their character effectively? Personally, I have no problem committing hours of my time to doing something specific. But this is because I have *no responsibilities*, a pretty rare thing among us adults. I'm fortunate, but I'm certainly not going to disparage another if they don't enjoy the same freedom as me, and I'm not going to insist that they be blocked from content because they're unable to sign in blood that they can devote the next few hours to a GAME.
Some of you kiddies will understand this when you grow up, get a job, get married, and have kiddies of your own. And those of you already all growed up and have loads of free time to waste, consider that you are in a very enviable position and be thankful for your good fortune -- but keep in mind that it *doesn't* make you better than those who don't.
Still, It's true, I don't mind playing with people who arent' "amazing' and seeing what happens. I really would meet with a party of good natured people, we try the encounter and if we fail we fail. To me it's the experience of trying that is enjoyable.
Winning is enjoyable too but it's neither here nor there. I am not one to exclude people because they aren't amazing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Generally my objectives and my fun come WAY before having to group with inarticulate, semi-educated, greedy, whiny dickheads I've never even seen before. I prefer games that allow me to turn off drive-by group invites, because nine times out of 10 the guy spamming group invites just wants something handed to him on a plate.
I'll happily answer questions in General Chat, at length if need be, and I'll ALWAYS group with RL friends and family, no matter what I happen to be doing at the time, but I never group with strangers.
Was that last bit addressed to me, or waas it an over generalized assumption that people who don't mind or event prefer or enjoy a more challenging and involved game have to be kids with too much time on their hands. Either way, I'm married and have a job... no kids quite yet, and I still personally enjoy a decently involved MMO.
Furthermore, casual to hardcore is more than just non-grind vs grind. It can also refer to a variation in the depth and complexity of gameplay, how easy it is to get into and understand, etc.
But you still miss my point.
Not all MMOs should try to cater to the casual crowd. Just because the casual crowd believes that their way is the best and most satisfying, it's not the case for everyone else. There are many players who don't mind a more involved and complex game, but the problem today is that most developers want to cater to the casual crowd because it's a "wider" audience.
There is a history of more "casual" gamers asking for games to be made easier, auicker, more convenient, and generally dumbed down to thier personal level. And the industry has responded, a little too much if you ask me. So rather than simply pick a game that better suits their personal preferences and needs, they want to impose it on everyone by trying to force games down to their level. It's as ridiculous of a scenario if the "hardcore" crowd suddenly demanded that farmville be made more complex -- such as soil PH, rain fall/irrigation, pest control, crop rotation, etc, etc, to meet their needs.
"Hardcore" gamers needs options just as much as casual gamers need their options. There is no one size fits all formula that will appease every type of gamer. The closest thing is WoW, and look how many of it's own playerbase rage about aspects of the game on a daily bases. It's because the game tries to appease too many different groups with so many different things, so it does everything only passably well, rather than a few things extremely well.
In other words, don't demand that a game's mechanics bend to your whim. Rather, go find a different game that meets your playstyle better. The 'hardcore' crowd would take this advice themselves, but it's a little hard these days when the options are so few and far between.
You seem to be missing the point that a significant portion of the players 'who don't mind a more involved and complex game' are in fact those same casual players you blittle and look down on. Since they do not want 'instant gratification' or 'dumbed down' games your accusations of that seem rather silly and a bit crazed. In fact many would consider your group to be the ones who insist on dumbing down the genre 'to their personal level'.
You're making assumptions about my position and using those assumptions to label me negatively.
In my previous post I stated that casual means different things to different people. To many, players are either casual or hardcore, and where the tipping like between them is slides. To others, like me, casual and hardcore are extremes, and the majority of players are just that, regular games who share both casual and hardcore aspects between them to varying degrees.
That said, there is a vocal minority within the casual crowd that pushes for things that follow the trend of instant gratification and solo group play. That's not to say that certain aspects of what they are demanding don't have merrit. There is a reasonable case for reducing grind, making certain things like grouping easier to assemble and coordinate, etc. However, the degree to which the vocal fringe wants, is often going too far for the other side of the spectrum, and furthermore is typically at odds with what the other end of the spectrum would like.
Which is why, as I previously stated, there is no "one size fits all" MMO. You cannot fully cater to both ends of the spectrum, and everywhere inbetween at the same time. You can appease them to varying degrees, but doing so will always diminish the other end in some manner.
I'm not saying that one end of the spectrum of playstyle or anything in between is inherently right or wrong. It's all subjective on a case by case basis per each gamer. Which is why there should be valid options for gamers of varying degrees for each player, varying in both the amount of commitment required, and complexity in gameplay.
What is wrong, is when one camp tries to force a particular MMO away from it's initial perspective, or the genre in general toward a single style of gameplay. This is what has left many of the more "hardcore" -- which includes many regaular gamers who don't mind more complex games and putting in some effort -- bitter, because the industry has been increasingly shifting towards reduced complexity and instant gratification... in short, being dumbed down for the "masses".
To tie this in full circle to the main point of this thread, since this has gotten way off topic... is that many of us need to respect other players more. For this point specifically, we need to respect the fact that what is enjoyable for us isn't enjoyable to others, and that everyone's view when it comes to MMOs is a valid perspective. Expanding on that thought, we shouldn't expect others to align themselves to our style of gameplay. If a particular game doesn't meet our "needs", such as being too casual or too hardcore, then we should just move on and not play said MMO.
If the game or dungeon are so easy that one wipe is unacceptable, why even play?
--John Ruskin
Well, i've been both casual and hardcore before, been a "noob" and a "pro", a troll and also a rage quitter... i've pretty much experienced lots of different scenarios, and there is just one thing i can say about groups: find similar people to join your fights.
You know, all that crap about achiever, explorer, fighter... it really works. I would also add one thing: find if your mate is playing mainly for the immersion (most role players), mainly for fun (most casuals) or mainly for the sense of accomplishment (most hardcores in their own areas, like pvp, pve, achievments or other tasks).
The hardcore vs. casual debate has no end, so i'd say to avoid people u don't want to be around with. Of course this isn't possible if you are using the Random Dungeon Finder, but these dungeons are so trivial (u just NEED to do once a day if you are not beginning, come on) they should be ran just for fun.
Play as you like or just quit if you feel like it, but don't nitpick on the casuals or start to call the hardcore a no life nerd, it can ruin other people game experiences. Everybody is paying the same amount to play the same game, the way one plays it should not be questioned, so just be polite and seek your kind of players.
Playing: Starcraft II.
Played: Tibia, Ragnarok Online, Ultima Online, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft.
Wanna play: Guild Wars 2, SW:TOR, Final Fantasy XIV, Diablo III.
Wow you sir are the exact definition why I believe MMO communities have become utter garbage as of late. It used to be fun to help out your fellow gamers and teach them new encounters and experience content together. I don't necessarily blame you directly, but I blame the current game design trend for attracting gamers like you.
Edit: I also don't support the OP's stance entirely either. His perspective is far too draconian, and the guy I quoted is far too anarchical. Basically i just see it as the OP states this is how the party should work, like it or get out. While this guy above states this is how I play like it or I'm gone. Is there no damn middle ground here anymore?
I just believe that players should respect each other and strive to build a better community first and foremost. Game mechanics should promote this naturally by giving incentives towards community building and not individual gain. It should be 50% Community progression and 50% individual progression IMO. DAoC is one of the few PvP titles IMO that has a good community because of this. Most modern MMO's are 100% individual progression, so no wonder it has bred a community that doesn't give a damn about their fellow gamer.
A.K.A. VirgoThree
Im curious, are you a tank or a healer?
Because dps that join groups dont have that luxury. I recently leveled a warlock alt to 80 and now a disc priest, and I can say without a doubt, tanks and healers are the only ones that will turn there nose up and leave the group.
If a dps does that, 20+ mins is much longer than an instant que.
Personally, I try to suck it up and make it happen. As the healer I have a large control of how well everything goes and if somethings out of place like a tank not waiting for me to get mana, charge out of my los, dps trying to tank, debuffs not being removed, etc etc-- then I say something. Its not too often that even in a bad group, I cant get through the dungeon.
What you are making a big deal about is simply the difference of opinion about what is fun in an mmo. Not everyone needs to win to have fun. You would do well to understand that people whom are different are ok. Simply don`t associate yourself with them in the future if their idea of a good time bothers you. I hope you realize that what you are saying is very, very self centered, and the foundation of all conflict, large scale and small. Neither what you want or what they want out of the game is wrong. If you wish people to tolerate what you want, you should also tolerate what others want. If neither party has the capacity to do that, then you are nothing but animals, and will soon be shooting eachother dead in the street. If that`s what you want, I`ll be sure to stay as far away from you both as possible as you extinguish each other and die lonely.
People will be different. Why is that such a shocker for everyone?
We humans have this emotion called empathy, and if you get past the fact that what is happening isnt what you want, you will actually find yourself enjoying it too when we see/hear that person laughing and having fun. It`s the same reason why we also feel sad when we see a complete stranger cry. Its quite useful.