Well the beauty of waypoint travel is that you don't have to use it. So in that respect the loading screens will be very minimal. So you can just walk to every place to get yourself more immersed to the world if you so wish.
Well the beauty of waypoint travel is that you don't have to use it. So in that respect the loading screens will be very minimal. So you can just walk to every place to get yourself more immersed to the world if you so wish.
Well that would be great, but they didnt show any of that, which leads me to believe that between every zone I need to load, so lets say their maps are 1K by 1K and it takes a couple minutes to cross, will it be like Warhammer when I cross a zone boundary? Or Like WoW?
Mordeath, you are not quite right on the number of outcomes for Dynamic Events, especially in regards to Public Quests. If you don't save the village in a PQ (say in stage 2, since the PQ will stay in stage 1 indefinitely until it is completed), the village will burn down, you will "fail" the event, and the reset counter will start, for the village to be restored and again overrun by marauders in Stage 1 in 3 minutes. Otherwise, proceed to Stage 3. Failure in stage 3 will lead to the same result as failure in stage 2.
In a Dynamic Event, if you fail to save the village from the, say, bandits, they will burn the village down, kill everyone in it, and establish a bandit base of operations. They will send out raiding parties to attack other nearby settlements, affecting the cost of goods and services in the region. They will attack caravans of workers attempting to rebuild and resettle in their destroyed village.
You can help out, or choose not to, at any point in the event chain, as there is no simple "option A or option B". Maybe you want to protect the rescue caravan, maybe you want to take the fight to the bandits and go to their cave and kill their leader, etc. These all represent different stages in the event's cycle. Eventually the village may be saved, but there will *still be events* in the area to do, which will continue to chain and have consequences until such a time that the bandits regroup and attack again. While you may see bandits attack again after some time (and we do not know how long of a time that will be yet), it's not a simple "3 minute countdown to reset". I hope this example illustrates that a bit more clearly for you.
As for the loading screens, you are right, GW2 will not be utterly seamless, however, as it was stated by Izzy Cartwright at the con, you will be able to run for hours without seeing a loading screen if you so choose (i.e. by never using waypoints). That's considerably fewer than the number of loading screens found in Warhammer, or Age of Conan. Maybe Izzy's lying to our faces, though, who knows?
Please also notte, Mordeath, that you got to see exactly one (1) game-altering option for the personal story; that of your background. For the demo purposes, they did not get very far into the actual personal story because that would be full of spoilers (and they probably aren't finished polishing it yet, for that matter). There are indeed game and story altering choices you can make; an example being having to choose between saving one of two buildings in your hometown under attack - an orphanage or a hospital. If you save one, the other is destroyed forever, and options open up for you depending on what choice you make. Other choices described included whether to choose to infiltrate an enemy camp at night to rescue an ally, or charge in, guns a-blazing.
In short, we haven't see enough of the game via the demo to write off the personal story yet, but I agree with you that it might be a bit early to say "Mission Accomplished" on how deep the personal story is, simply because we haven't seen enough of it yet!
They rightfully took the crown from SWTOR. I generally don't think of ArenaNet much (even though I have a copy of Nightfall) but I was really impressed by their Gamescon showing (especially their openness about the game -- compared to Bioware's "we can't talk about it" garbage) to put it on my "Should probably buy it" list.
To those of you arguing about the dynamic nature of MMOs. GW2 is indeed dynamic, just as WAR's PQs are still dynamic. The outcomes of the events are determined by the actions taken by those participating. This means the outcome can change, and hence is dynamic.
The question isn't whether or not GW2 is dynamic, but rather if it's dynamic 'enough' for your liking. As shown in the demos, the starting area is very linear, and much less dynamic than some of the other events they are promising. This is primarily done to streamline players as they learn how to play the game. Now, if this is fine for you, then the rest of the events should be a blast. However, if this is not satisfying, then it might be a toss up as to how enjoyable the other events will be.
Anet has talked about events that can get really elaborate (like the dragons), but also that not all events are like that. There will be a range of complexity to events of this game. Some may seem more 'standard', while some are much more complex, but they are all still dynamic.
I don't feel they walked the walk at all. They had previously taken shots at mechanics like gather quests (collect X parts) and gold exclamation marks and such from the quest system. Yet their event system had you collecting harpy glands, and had a new event alerter that guided you to events much like that point guides you to where you start a quest. The combat and animation felt exactly like aion (no I am not talking about character models I am talking about the actual feel of the abilities and combat) Did I see anything groundbreaking or revolutionary? No... I saw some nice polish on current mechanics, but hardly that godly game that anet had promised.
I agree. I didnt see the animation limits, but the game still seems like its useing gimmick marketing tactics to display and word things to make GW2 seem much more unique than it really is.
so far, most things seem like they are tradional features but simply with a different name.
Also iam not buying the hype over the Event system with the giant dragon just yet.
I don't feel they walked the walk at all. They had previously taken shots at mechanics like gather quests (collect X parts) and gold exclamation marks and such from the quest system. Yet their event system had you collecting harpy glands, and had a new event alerter that guided you to events much like that point guides you to where you start a quest. The combat and animation felt exactly like aion (no I am not talking about character models I am talking about the actual feel of the abilities and combat) Did I see anything groundbreaking or revolutionary? No... I saw some nice polish on current mechanics, but hardly that godly game that anet had promised.
I agree. I didnt see the animation limits, but the game still seems like its useing gimmick marketing tactics to display and word things to make GW2 seem much more unique than it really is.
so far, most things seem like they are tradional features but simply with a different name.
Also iam not buying the hype over the Event system with the giant dragon just yet.
Good Points, I guess I view "dynamic" as changing and not static. How many times are the centaurs gonna burn the village? Once a day, once a year, once per character? Is it really dynamic if they're gonna keep coming back or is it scripted with 2 possible outcomes? You could try and argue RPG's offer dynamic content but they really dont. The outcomes are predetermined. Regardless of what you may or may not feel is boring, if I "might as well join in" well that fine, I might as well go do the public quests in Warhammer, which I would argue is well, not dynamic. I can choose to help or not. If the group kills the bosses they die, if they dont the bosses stay. 2 outcomes, not dynamic. In regard to the personal story stuff, dynamic to ME, also involves choice, something that this doesnt, my personal story, doesnt offer my personal story, it offers the written story of whatever things are predetermined (like an RPG). An example would be " Mordeath choose not to help the village from the Centaurs and was branded a coward. He was driven from is village with stones and left to fend for himself with the Kobolds (which would kill him cause he only does 1D4 ("Always the first to die" homage). Thats a personal story, now I have to figure out how I am going to repair my sullied name, Maybe I lead the charge next time and cleanse my name. Maybe I go further down the path, maybe I become a baker. Anyway, hopefully you get the point. The demo showed, "We have a problem at the village", "Oh, I ll help (no selection of yes or no)" "Thanks, go save us please". Thats all I'm saying.As far as persistent is concerned, part of this is being naive I to what the current Guild Wars 1 offers. I could not imagine playing an online game that I was by myself in. If it is not an MMO I can see why you would be excited that this is one. I am curious though, how many people who played STO and bagged on it for load screens will play this, and feel its OK for GW2 to have load screens. I understand "seamless" and load screens. Load screens make if feel like an online multiplayer game ala FPS, etc. Waypoint travel, if its an in game mechanic should feel that way, there shouldnt be a load, why not fly me on a bird? Or something? Warhammer felt limited and was not open due to loading every time you moved across a tier area, crap I forgot something, load, etc (this feels immersive) seamless areas make the world feel big and immersive. Load screens and text walls dont.
When you ask about the centaurs attacking are you talking about what they showed for the human starting area? If you are, yes that is pretty static; it is after all a tutorial for new players. If you watch the videos from gamescom with the devs talking they say in all most all of them that you enter the persistent word after you finish that starting area. At least from what I have heard I expect to see that same sequence of events on all human characters I create (I might be wrong about this and any video evidence showing that would be appreciated). After that you will see the dynamic events where farmers can have their crops destroyed or like the Steelspan where the brand dragon minions can push the char out of the fortress. Then players will have to do events to recapture it, or push further into the brand depending how the events unfold.
As for the rest we have not seen a character leave a zone yet, so we do not know if there is a loading screen or if you just move to the new area like WoW. I know I am curious to see this occur in a video, I am hoping there is not a load screen when you go from Queensdale to the surrounding country side.
Good Points, I guess I view "dynamic" as changing and not static. How many times are the centaurs gonna burn the village? Once a day, once a year, once per character? Is it really dynamic if they're gonna keep coming back or is it scripted with 2 possible outcomes? You could try and argue RPG's offer dynamic content but they really dont. The outcomes are predetermined. Regardless of what you may or may not feel is boring, if I "might as well join in" well that fine, I might as well go do the public quests in Warhammer, which I would argue is well, not dynamic. I can choose to help or not. If the group kills the bosses they die, if they dont the bosses stay. 2 outcomes, not dynamic. In regard to the personal story stuff, dynamic to ME, also involves choice, something that this doesnt, my personal story, doesnt offer my personal story, it offers the written story of whatever things are predetermined (like an RPG). An example would be " Mordeath choose not to help the village from the Centaurs and was branded a coward. He was driven from is village with stones and left to fend for himself with the Kobolds (which would kill him cause he only does 1D4 ("Always the first to die" homage). Thats a personal story, now I have to figure out how I am going to repair my sullied name, Maybe I lead the charge next time and cleanse my name. Maybe I go further down the path, maybe I become a baker. Anyway, hopefully you get the point. The demo showed, "We have a problem at the village", "Oh, I ll help (no selection of yes or no)" "Thanks, go save us please". Thats all I'm saying.
As far as persistent is concerned, part of this is being naive I to what the current Guild Wars 1 offers. I could not imagine playing an online game that I was by myself in. If it is not an MMO I can see why you would be excited that this is one. I am curious though, how many people who played STO and bagged on it for load screens will play this, and feel its OK for GW2 to have load screens. I understand "seamless" and load screens. Load screens make if feel like an online multiplayer game ala FPS, etc. Waypoint travel, if its an in game mechanic should feel that way, there shouldnt be a load, why not fly me on a bird? Or something? Warhammer felt limited and was not open due to loading every time you moved across a tier area, crap I forgot something, load, etc (this feels immersive) seamless areas make the world feel big and immersive. Load screens and text walls dont.
When you ask about the centaurs attacking are you talking about what they showed for the human starting area? If you are, yes that is pretty static; it is after all a tutorial for new players. If you watch the videos from gamescom with the devs talking they say in all most all of them that you enter the persistent word after you finish that starting area. At least from what I have heard I expect to see that same sequence of events on all human characters I create (I might be wrong about this and any video evidence showing that would be appreciated). After that you will see the dynamic events where farmers can have their crops destroyed or like the Steelspan where the brand dragon minions can push the char out of the fortress. Then players will have to do events to recapture it, or push further into the brand depending how the events unfold.
As for the rest we have not seen a character leave a zone yet, so we do not know if there is a loading screen or if you just move to the new area like WoW. I know I am curious to see this occur in a video, I am hoping there is not a load screen when you go from Queensdale to the surrounding country side.
I actually have seen 1 clip from a gamescon demo where the character had to zone (with a loading screen) between Divinity's Reach and Queensdale. However, it was quite short and each zone looked quite huge - so I don't see them being a really intrusive issue. So far I haven't seen a loading screen that wasn't gone in the span of time you could take a deep breathe and let it out. If that's a big problem for you still, well...close your eyes for 2 seconds and you'll be good .
I actually have seen 1 clip from a gamescon demo where the character had to zone (with a loading screen) between Divinity's Reach and Queensdale. However, it was quite short and each zone looked quite huge - so I don't see them being a really intrusive issue. So far I haven't seen a loading screen that wasn't gone in the span of time you could take a deep breathe and let it out. If that's a big problem for you still, well...close your eyes for 2 seconds and you'll be good .
Yes, we already know that the capital cities are instanced from the persistent world, so they have a load screen that at least to me was expected. What we have not seen is the travel from zone to zone, devs have talked about it, but we have not seen it in a video yet to prove either way.
I actually have seen 1 clip from a gamescon demo where the character had to zone (with a loading screen) between Divinity's Reach and Queensdale. However, it was quite short and each zone looked quite huge - so I don't see them being a really intrusive issue. So far I haven't seen a loading screen that wasn't gone in the span of time you could take a deep breathe and let it out. If that's a big problem for you still, well...close your eyes for 2 seconds and you'll be good .
Yes, we already know that the capital cities are instanced from the persistent world, so they have a load screen that at least to me was expected. What we have not seen is the travel from zone to zone, devs have talked about it, but we have not seen it in a video yet to prove either way.
Well, in the demos, one of the presenters describes the city as persistent except for the personal story region. Be careful not to confuse zoning with instancing.
I see your point though - it's true that we've not seen if there will be zone borders between wilderness regions. I'd say it's probably likely if they zoned (but not instanced) major cities, that they would repeat the zoning throughout the world - but then again I'm not a game developer so perhaps there's another reason they would decided to zone only the towns. I'll withhold conclusions until I've seen more on the matter, I suppose.
It's something to see all this excitement over a game from a company that has basically said that old-school MMO mechanics were flawed and needed to be fixed.
I have to chuckle back at all the times I've read people on this site complaining about the evolution we're witnessing in MMOs away from those wretched, tedious, hardcore game mechanics that go all the way back to UO.
And now that we're starting to see real evidence of what kind of game evolves out of the concept of questioning everything those old-school MMO established as traditions, many people are becoming excited or at least cautiously optimistic.
The future of this genre might not be that grim if people are willing to follow the path ArenaNet is blazing as they throw out old-school mechanics that have stagnated MMOs for years.
To those of you arguing about the dynamic nature of MMOs. GW2 is indeed dynamic, just as WAR's PQs are still dynamic. The outcomes of the events are determined by the actions taken by those participating. This means the outcome can change, and hence is dynamic.
The question isn't whether or not GW2 is dynamic, but rather if it's dynamic 'enough' for your liking. As shown in the demos, the starting area is very linear, and much less dynamic than some of the other events they are promising. This is primarily done to streamline players as they learn how to play the game. Now, if this is fine for you, then the rest of the events should be a blast. However, if this is not satisfying, then it might be a toss up as to how enjoyable the other events will be.
Anet has talked about events that can get really elaborate (like the dragons), but also that not all events are like that. There will be a range of complexity to events of this game. Some may seem more 'standard', while some are much more complex, but they are all still dynamic.
Its really not about being dynamic enough its just not dynamic. Its fixed, scripted, there is a specific outcome. In Wars PQ's there are guaranteed outcomes, you kill the wave and advance or you dont, if you do it resets, if not it waits to be beaten and then resets. Multiple steps doesnt mean dynamic IMO and if that means its not dynamic enough then thats what it must be. I'm down with the whole centaurs burn the village and setup shop or you beat them back and everyone loves you, I get it. It sounds fun, but its just a more immersive gameplay experience but if the centaurs take over what happens, they move further and impose their will in further zones? If they are beaten will they never come back? Or will they adapt and bring other mobs. Dynamic events IMO dont have predicted outcomes. They can change (hence dynamic). Look if I said you can have an apple or an orange and you took the orange but you knew the other possibility was the apple and always would be then its not dynamic. But if you got a pear or a mango (which is a quite different fruit I must add) it would be different, hence, not static, dynamic. An outcome that can change. But if this is the definition that GW2 is going for then its more along the lines of an RPG which would make SWTOR just as dynamic. It's more of the fact that everyone is using the word dynamic, and it means nothing other than the catchphrase of the year.
I love how people who say they all the sudden are choosing this game over another just becuase the company released more info. the most anticipated games comig up won;t be released for a long time. Who cares if ArenaNet walked the walked to day? Who cares if ArenaNet had a better conference showing today?
What really matters is the final product. What really matters is what WE as the general public is going to buy and play for a very long time.
Its really not about being dynamic enough its just not dynamic. It's dynamic, more so than current-MMO quests. Its fixed, scripted, there is a specific outcome. Of course it has a limited number of outcomes, what had you expected, an unlimited one? No games have infinite number of outcomes. In Wars PQ's there are guaranteed outcomes, you kill the wave and advance or you dont, if you do it resets, if not it waits to be beaten and then resets. Multiple steps doesnt mean dynamic IMO and if that means its not dynamic enough then thats what it must be. I'm down with the whole centaurs burn the village and setup shop or you beat them back and everyone loves you, I get it. It sounds fun, but its just a more immersive gameplay experience but if the centaurs take over what happens, they move further and impose their will in further zones? They do, they build new fortresses, start scouting and raiding other villages and if nobody stops them they'll kill the local human king and his royal guard. Of course, after a certain time a new king, like his son, is appointed who starts to fight back etc. If they are beaten will they never come back? They will come back, we're not talking about one-time events here. Or will they adapt and bring other mobs. Dynamic events IMO dont have predicted outcomes. They can change (hence dynamic). Look if I said you can have an apple or an orange and you took the orange but you knew the other possibility was the apple and always would be then its not dynamic. But if you got a pear or a mango (which is a quite different fruit I must add) it would be different, hence, not static, dynamic. An outcome that can change. But if this is the definition that GW2 is going for then its more along the lines of an RPG which would make SWTOR just as dynamic. It's more of the fact that everyone is using the word dynamic, and it means nothing other than the catchphrase of the year.
Your definition of dynamic, ever evolving ever changing outcomes is not possible in current games, unless your principle is sandbox theme, only human participants and opponents. But ingame via AI it's not doable yet.
Dynamic as used by ANet means more dynamic than the regular quests of current MMO's. Which Dynamic Events are.
It's all about relativity, as everybody using common sense would know.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
To those of you arguing about the dynamic nature of MMOs. GW2 is indeed dynamic, just as WAR's PQs are still dynamic. The outcomes of the events are determined by the actions taken by those participating. This means the outcome can change, and hence is dynamic.
The question isn't whether or not GW2 is dynamic, but rather if it's dynamic 'enough' for your liking. As shown in the demos, the starting area is very linear, and much less dynamic than some of the other events they are promising. This is primarily done to streamline players as they learn how to play the game. Now, if this is fine for you, then the rest of the events should be a blast. However, if this is not satisfying, then it might be a toss up as to how enjoyable the other events will be.
Anet has talked about events that can get really elaborate (like the dragons), but also that not all events are like that. There will be a range of complexity to events of this game. Some may seem more 'standard', while some are much more complex, but they are all still dynamic.
Its really not about being dynamic enough its just not dynamic. Its fixed, scripted, there is a specific outcome. In Wars PQ's there are guaranteed outcomes, you kill the wave and advance or you dont, if you do it resets, if not it waits to be beaten and then resets. Multiple steps doesnt mean dynamic IMO and if that means its not dynamic enough then thats what it must be. I'm down with the whole centaurs burn the village and setup shop or you beat them back and everyone loves you, I get it. It sounds fun, but its just a more immersive gameplay experience but if the centaurs take over what happens, they move further and impose their will in further zones? If they are beaten will they never come back? Or will they adapt and bring other mobs. Dynamic events IMO dont have predicted outcomes. They can change (hence dynamic). Look if I said you can have an apple or an orange and you took the orange but you knew the other possibility was the apple and always would be then its not dynamic. But if you got a pear or a mango (which is a quite different fruit I must add) it would be different, hence, not static, dynamic. An outcome that can change. But if this is the definition that GW2 is going for then its more along the lines of an RPG which would make SWTOR just as dynamic. It's more of the fact that everyone is using the word dynamic, and it means nothing other than the catchphrase of the year.
Well let’s see what the dictionary meaning of dynamic is: from free dictionary.com Dynamic: Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress. From Webster’s dictionary.com Dynamic: marked by usually continuous and productive activity or change. So with those definitions in mind let’s see if the quest system from Anet is truly dynamic. Do the quests in the persistent world continuously change, or progress? Well we know from the videos at Gamescom that the steel eye span event is constantly changing, from branded dragon minions assaulting the wall to capturing the fort and killing all the Charr and causing further havoc from there. Or if the players interact they can push the minions back to some other event. So then with that knowledge are the events dynamic? The answer if you go by the English dictionary has to be yes, they are continuously changing in one form or another. So then with that in mind has Anet lived up to what they talked about in their interviews, again the answer is yes. debate ended
I got to play at the gamescon and tried out the computers they have set up with nvidia 3d vision. And I was really in awe. This game looks so great in 3D I cant wait to play it for real. And yes I am going to get a 3D kit for this game alone.
I got to play at the gamescon and tried out the computers they have set up with nvidia 3d vision. And I was really in awe. This game looks so great in 3D I cant wait to play it for real. And yes I am going to get a 3D kit for this game alone.
I need to buy a new PC if I wanna enjoy this game to its full potential haha.
Ahahaha, AKASlaphappy beat me to the definition but yes, dynamic does not mean "unpredictable" or "with limitless options"...
Actually, little-known story*, ArenaNet was going to call the Dynamic Events "Dynamic Overworld Events With Branching Results That Persist Until Resolved By Players And Progress Without Player Input But Not Indefinitely Because We All Know That If Players Could Let A Village Be Permanently Destroyed The World Would Be In Ruins Within Half An Hour Of Launch, And Anyway If We Coded Events To Happen Only Once We Would Have To Hire 100 More Content Developers And Then We Really Would Have To Sell More Copies Than WoW To Make A Profit"
But that was too long, so they just shortened it to Dynamic Events.
Its really not about being dynamic enough its just not dynamic. Its fixed, scripted, there is a specific outcome. In Wars PQ's there are guaranteed outcomes, you kill the wave and advance or you dont, if you do it resets, if not it waits to be beaten and then resets. Multiple steps doesnt mean dynamic IMO and if that means its not dynamic enough then thats what it must be. I'm down with the whole centaurs burn the village and setup shop or you beat them back and everyone loves you, I get it. It sounds fun, but its just a more immersive gameplay experience but if the centaurs take over what happens, they move further and impose their will in further zones? If they are beaten will they never come back? Or will they adapt and bring other mobs. Dynamic events IMO dont have predicted outcomes. They can change (hence dynamic). Look if I said you can have an apple or an orange and you took the orange but you knew the other possibility was the apple and always would be then its not dynamic. But if you got a pear or a mango (which is a quite different fruit I must add) it would be different, hence, not static, dynamic. An outcome that can change. But if this is the definition that GW2 is going for then its more along the lines of an RPG which would make SWTOR just as dynamic. It's more of the fact that everyone is using the word dynamic, and it means nothing other than the catchphrase of the year.
On one of their releases about the game, they gave the Dredges example. The Dredges are like a mole-man race from GW lore.
The dynamic events works somwhat like this: You're warned that the Dredges are assaulting a nearby fort and they need your help defending it. There are two outcomes, you defend it and drive the Dredges back to their caves, wich open the possibility of venturing on those caves and more Dynamic quests branching advancing to push them deeper into the earth and culminating in assaulting the Dredge King.
The other outcome is failing to defend the Fort. In this case they'll set up an outpost there, the area will now be infested with Dredge mobs and they'll launch regular attacks to nearby settlements, wich if not stopped will conquer those settlements and driving the NPCs away form there.
The Dynamic events are like a Stair, where the first event is a step on the middle of it. If you suceed you go up one step, otherwise you go down one and each step has two different outcomes. They gave only simple examples of that, only two different outcames and I haven't read anything talking about more than that. One thing they said is that depending on the outcomes of some events you'll have access to new ones that doesn't exactly belong to that chain but are related to the lore of the original event, wich are dynamic events by themselves.
I you think about it, the mechanic IS symple, but the possibilities are huge. The only thing that concerns me is how those events will "reset". After you kill the Dredge King does it just comes back to "The Dredges are attacking the Fort" event? In my opinion the event should disappear for a couple of days, them you recieve news that a new Dredge king has risen and he is mustering a powerful attack to retake their caves and take the fort once and for all. What would that mean? That now the dynamic event started on the top step of the stair, but the Dredge mobs will be a lot more powerful now and they'll just steamroll all the other steps unless the players gather a much more significant army. That would make the players feel the thrill that they CAN lose.
We've seen that Dynamic events scale on difficulty depending on how many player are undertaking it. I think some should randomly scale to a harder level, to force the players to really try to hold that, or lose. Doesn't matter how wonderful and dynamic those events are, if they're too easy, they won't be fun.
Wrapping up, I'm really excited about GW2 and everything until now looks just wonderful. Arena.Net never let me down, gave me up, never ran around and deserted me, let's just hope they keep that score.
"I you think about it, the mechanic IS symple, but the possibilities are huge. The only thing that concerns me is how those events will "reset". After you kill the Dredge King does it just comes back to "The Dredges are attacking the Fort" event? In my opinion the event should disappear for a couple of days, them you recieve news that a new Dredge king has risen and he is mustering a powerful attack to retake their caves and take the fort once and for all. What would that mean? That now the dynamic event started on the top step of the stair, but the Dredge mobs will be a lot more powerful now and they'll just steamroll all the other steps unless the players gather a much more significant army. That would make the players feel the thrill that they CAN lose."
In the centaurs example they game it worked exactly as you stated. The event disappears for a while as the centaurs work on finding a new leader. Then the attack begins anew. I don't believe that the mobs will be more powerful at that point, but the event will disappear for some amount of time while the new leader is found.
Its really not about being dynamic enough its just not dynamic. Its fixed, scripted, there is a specific outcome. In Wars PQ's there are guaranteed outcomes, you kill the wave and advance or you dont, if you do it resets, if not it waits to be beaten and then resets. Multiple steps doesnt mean dynamic IMO and if that means its not dynamic enough then thats what it must be. I'm down with the whole centaurs burn the village and setup shop or you beat them back and everyone loves you, I get it. It sounds fun, but its just a more immersive gameplay experience but if the centaurs take over what happens, they move further and impose their will in further zones? If they are beaten will they never come back? Or will they adapt and bring other mobs. Dynamic events IMO dont have predicted outcomes. They can change (hence dynamic). Look if I said you can have an apple or an orange and you took the orange but you knew the other possibility was the apple and always would be then its not dynamic. But if you got a pear or a mango (which is a quite different fruit I must add) it would be different, hence, not static, dynamic. An outcome that can change. But if this is the definition that GW2 is going for then its more along the lines of an RPG which would make SWTOR just as dynamic. It's more of the fact that everyone is using the word dynamic, and it means nothing other than the catchphrase of the year.
On one of their releases about the game, they gave the Dredges example. The Dredges are like a mole-man race from GW lore.
The dynamic events works somwhat like this: You're warned that the Dredges are assaulting a nearby fort and they need your help defending it. There are two outcomes, you defend it and drive the Dredges back to their caves, wich open the possibility of venturing on those caves and more Dynamic quests branching advancing to push them deeper into the earth and culminating in assaulting the Dredge King.
The other outcome is failing to defend the Fort. In this case they'll set up an outpost there, the area will now be infested with Dredge mobs and they'll launch regular attacks to nearby settlements, wich if not stopped will conquer those settlements and driving the NPCs away form there.
The Dynamic events are like a Stair, where the first event is a step on the middle of it. If you suceed you go up one step, otherwise you go down one and each step has two different outcomes. They gave only simple examples of that, only two different outcames and I haven't read anything talking about more than that. One thing they said is that depending on the outcomes of some events you'll have access to new ones that doesn't exactly belong to that chain but are related to the lore of the original event, wich are dynamic events by themselves.
I you think about it, the mechanic IS symple, but the possibilities are huge. The only thing that concerns me is how those events will "reset". After you kill the Dredge King does it just comes back to "The Dredges are attacking the Fort" event? In my opinion the event should disappear for a couple of days, them you recieve news that a new Dredge king has risen and he is mustering a powerful attack to retake their caves and take the fort once and for all. What would that mean? That now the dynamic event started on the top step of the stair, but the Dredge mobs will be a lot more powerful now and they'll just steamroll all the other steps unless the players gather a much more significant army. That would make the players feel the thrill that they CAN lose.
We've seen that Dynamic events scale on difficulty depending on how many player are undertaking it. I think some should randomly scale to a harder level, to force the players to really try to hold that, or lose. Doesn't matter how wonderful and dynamic those events are, if they're too easy, they won't be fun.
Wrapping up, I'm really excited about GW2 and everything until now looks just wonderful. Arena.Net never let me down, gave me up, never ran around and deserted me, let's just hope they keep that score.
I like the stair example but in the end to me, it feels like a bioware RPG and while cool, isnt dynamic. I can do the same thing , rinse repeat and get a specific set of outcomes. Known outcomes indicate a static pattern. You can call it dynamic but in SWTOR you can do the same thing (like in their other RPG's) that give greater variety but its not some bleeding edge concept is my point, its a different name for an old concept (RPG's having different options). Like any RPG its fun to run through maybe one or two times and try different things (Save Megaton or Blow it up) but once you have tried the different options the "dynamic" feel wont be there. I appreciate all the good dialogue, nice to gave a good chat about games, the we want's and optimism.
You are of course totally right to compare dynamic events to things that happen in regular RPGs, since that is actually what ArenaNet is going for - "putting the RPG back into the MMO" as they say. And while it is true that there are multi-branched quests in SWTOR as well, what separates Dynamic Events from the storyline in GW2 and the class storyline in SWTOR is that they take place in the open world and are accessible to everybody, of any class, rank or alignment.
Don't think that I am bashing the points you're making, Mordeath, as your observations are very good and you've obviously given this a lot of thought; it's just that you're not using the definition of dynamic properly. Dynamic doesn't mean infinite possibilities, and it doesn't mean procedurally generated, or completely unpredictable. It just means "constantly changing." And if that makes it "just like any other quest," (which I don't believe, as enumerated in many examples above) well then I guess the fault is of other developers for not using the term to describe their quests first!
I'm truly sorry that you feel Dynamic events don't feel unpredictable, or limitless, or anything else that the word Dynamic doesn't encompass, however. That would certainly be an interesting MMO to play (although I feel it would be griefed into a crater within an hour of launch if it were truly unpredictable and limitless; such is the result of sharing the world with unscrupulous sorts!).
It was certainly interesting footage and I'd like to see more on how the other elements will hang together as a whole.
The only thing I worry about is if it'll become this sites new WAR or Darkfall, where the rampant optimistic hype won't live up to the end product and the melodrama starts all again. Is there a 'GW2 IZ DA BOMB WOW IZ DED!!', topic yet? :P
Comments
Well the beauty of waypoint travel is that you don't have to use it. So in that respect the loading screens will be very minimal. So you can just walk to every place to get yourself more immersed to the world if you so wish.
Well that would be great, but they didnt show any of that, which leads me to believe that between every zone I need to load, so lets say their maps are 1K by 1K and it takes a couple minutes to cross, will it be like Warhammer when I cross a zone boundary? Or Like WoW?
Mordeath, you are not quite right on the number of outcomes for Dynamic Events, especially in regards to Public Quests. If you don't save the village in a PQ (say in stage 2, since the PQ will stay in stage 1 indefinitely until it is completed), the village will burn down, you will "fail" the event, and the reset counter will start, for the village to be restored and again overrun by marauders in Stage 1 in 3 minutes. Otherwise, proceed to Stage 3. Failure in stage 3 will lead to the same result as failure in stage 2.
In a Dynamic Event, if you fail to save the village from the, say, bandits, they will burn the village down, kill everyone in it, and establish a bandit base of operations. They will send out raiding parties to attack other nearby settlements, affecting the cost of goods and services in the region. They will attack caravans of workers attempting to rebuild and resettle in their destroyed village.
You can help out, or choose not to, at any point in the event chain, as there is no simple "option A or option B". Maybe you want to protect the rescue caravan, maybe you want to take the fight to the bandits and go to their cave and kill their leader, etc. These all represent different stages in the event's cycle. Eventually the village may be saved, but there will *still be events* in the area to do, which will continue to chain and have consequences until such a time that the bandits regroup and attack again. While you may see bandits attack again after some time (and we do not know how long of a time that will be yet), it's not a simple "3 minute countdown to reset". I hope this example illustrates that a bit more clearly for you.
As for the loading screens, you are right, GW2 will not be utterly seamless, however, as it was stated by Izzy Cartwright at the con, you will be able to run for hours without seeing a loading screen if you so choose (i.e. by never using waypoints). That's considerably fewer than the number of loading screens found in Warhammer, or Age of Conan. Maybe Izzy's lying to our faces, though, who knows?
Please also notte, Mordeath, that you got to see exactly one (1) game-altering option for the personal story; that of your background. For the demo purposes, they did not get very far into the actual personal story because that would be full of spoilers (and they probably aren't finished polishing it yet, for that matter). There are indeed game and story altering choices you can make; an example being having to choose between saving one of two buildings in your hometown under attack - an orphanage or a hospital. If you save one, the other is destroyed forever, and options open up for you depending on what choice you make. Other choices described included whether to choose to infiltrate an enemy camp at night to rescue an ally, or charge in, guns a-blazing.
In short, we haven't see enough of the game via the demo to write off the personal story yet, but I agree with you that it might be a bit early to say "Mission Accomplished" on how deep the personal story is, simply because we haven't seen enough of it yet!
They rightfully took the crown from SWTOR. I generally don't think of ArenaNet much (even though I have a copy of Nightfall) but I was really impressed by their Gamescon showing (especially their openness about the game -- compared to Bioware's "we can't talk about it" garbage) to put it on my "Should probably buy it" list.
To those of you arguing about the dynamic nature of MMOs. GW2 is indeed dynamic, just as WAR's PQs are still dynamic. The outcomes of the events are determined by the actions taken by those participating. This means the outcome can change, and hence is dynamic.
The question isn't whether or not GW2 is dynamic, but rather if it's dynamic 'enough' for your liking. As shown in the demos, the starting area is very linear, and much less dynamic than some of the other events they are promising. This is primarily done to streamline players as they learn how to play the game. Now, if this is fine for you, then the rest of the events should be a blast. However, if this is not satisfying, then it might be a toss up as to how enjoyable the other events will be.
Anet has talked about events that can get really elaborate (like the dragons), but also that not all events are like that. There will be a range of complexity to events of this game. Some may seem more 'standard', while some are much more complex, but they are all still dynamic.
I agree. I didnt see the animation limits, but the game still seems like its useing gimmick marketing tactics to display and word things to make GW2 seem much more unique than it really is.
so far, most things seem like they are tradional features but simply with a different name.
Also iam not buying the hype over the Event system with the giant dragon just yet.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Care to elaborate? Give some specific examples?
When you ask about the centaurs attacking are you talking about what they showed for the human starting area? If you are, yes that is pretty static; it is after all a tutorial for new players. If you watch the videos from gamescom with the devs talking they say in all most all of them that you enter the persistent word after you finish that starting area. At least from what I have heard I expect to see that same sequence of events on all human characters I create (I might be wrong about this and any video evidence showing that would be appreciated). After that you will see the dynamic events where farmers can have their crops destroyed or like the Steelspan where the brand dragon minions can push the char out of the fortress. Then players will have to do events to recapture it, or push further into the brand depending how the events unfold.
As for the rest we have not seen a character leave a zone yet, so we do not know if there is a loading screen or if you just move to the new area like WoW. I know I am curious to see this occur in a video, I am hoping there is not a load screen when you go from Queensdale to the surrounding country side.
I actually have seen 1 clip from a gamescon demo where the character had to zone (with a loading screen) between Divinity's Reach and Queensdale. However, it was quite short and each zone looked quite huge - so I don't see them being a really intrusive issue. So far I haven't seen a loading screen that wasn't gone in the span of time you could take a deep breathe and let it out. If that's a big problem for you still, well...close your eyes for 2 seconds and you'll be good
.
Yes, we already know that the capital cities are instanced from the persistent world, so they have a load screen that at least to me was expected. What we have not seen is the travel from zone to zone, devs have talked about it, but we have not seen it in a video yet to prove either way.
Well, in the demos, one of the presenters describes the city as persistent except for the personal story region. Be careful not to confuse zoning with instancing.
I see your point though - it's true that we've not seen if there will be zone borders between wilderness regions. I'd say it's probably likely if they zoned (but not instanced) major cities, that they would repeat the zoning throughout the world - but then again I'm not a game developer so perhaps there's another reason they would decided to zone only the towns. I'll withhold conclusions until I've seen more on the matter, I suppose.
It's something to see all this excitement over a game from a company that has basically said that old-school MMO mechanics were flawed and needed to be fixed.
I have to chuckle back at all the times I've read people on this site complaining about the evolution we're witnessing in MMOs away from those wretched, tedious, hardcore game mechanics that go all the way back to UO.
And now that we're starting to see real evidence of what kind of game evolves out of the concept of questioning everything those old-school MMO established as traditions, many people are becoming excited or at least cautiously optimistic.
The future of this genre might not be that grim if people are willing to follow the path ArenaNet is blazing as they throw out old-school mechanics that have stagnated MMOs for years.
Its really not about being dynamic enough its just not dynamic. Its fixed, scripted, there is a specific outcome. In Wars PQ's there are guaranteed outcomes, you kill the wave and advance or you dont, if you do it resets, if not it waits to be beaten and then resets. Multiple steps doesnt mean dynamic IMO and if that means its not dynamic enough then thats what it must be. I'm down with the whole centaurs burn the village and setup shop or you beat them back and everyone loves you, I get it. It sounds fun, but its just a more immersive gameplay experience but if the centaurs take over what happens, they move further and impose their will in further zones? If they are beaten will they never come back? Or will they adapt and bring other mobs. Dynamic events IMO dont have predicted outcomes. They can change (hence dynamic). Look if I said you can have an apple or an orange and you took the orange but you knew the other possibility was the apple and always would be then its not dynamic. But if you got a pear or a mango (which is a quite different fruit I must add) it would be different, hence, not static, dynamic. An outcome that can change. But if this is the definition that GW2 is going for then its more along the lines of an RPG which would make SWTOR just as dynamic. It's more of the fact that everyone is using the word dynamic, and it means nothing other than the catchphrase of the year.
I love how people who say they all the sudden are choosing this game over another just becuase the company released more info. the most anticipated games comig up won;t be released for a long time. Who cares if ArenaNet walked the walked to day? Who cares if ArenaNet had a better conference showing today?
What really matters is the final product. What really matters is what WE as the general public is going to buy and play for a very long time.
Your definition of dynamic, ever evolving ever changing outcomes is not possible in current games, unless your principle is sandbox theme, only human participants and opponents. But ingame via AI it's not doable yet.
Dynamic as used by ANet means more dynamic than the regular quests of current MMO's. Which Dynamic Events are.
It's all about relativity, as everybody using common sense would know.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well let’s see what the dictionary meaning of dynamic is: from free dictionary.com Dynamic: Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress. From Webster’s dictionary.com Dynamic: marked by usually continuous and productive activity or change. So with those definitions in mind let’s see if the quest system from Anet is truly dynamic. Do the quests in the persistent world continuously change, or progress? Well we know from the videos at Gamescom that the steel eye span event is constantly changing, from branded dragon minions assaulting the wall to capturing the fort and killing all the Charr and causing further havoc from there. Or if the players interact they can push the minions back to some other event. So then with that knowledge are the events dynamic? The answer if you go by the English dictionary has to be yes, they are continuously changing in one form or another. So then with that in mind has Anet lived up to what they talked about in their interviews, again the answer is yes. debate ended
I got to play at the gamescon and tried out the computers they have set up with nvidia 3d vision. And I was really in awe. This game looks so great in 3D I cant wait to play it for real. And yes I am going to get a 3D kit for this game alone.
I need to buy a new PC if I wanna enjoy this game to its full potential haha.
Rawr?
Ahahaha, AKASlaphappy beat me to the definition
but yes, dynamic does not mean "unpredictable" or "with limitless options"...
Actually, little-known story*, ArenaNet was going to call the Dynamic Events "Dynamic Overworld Events With Branching Results That Persist Until Resolved By Players And Progress Without Player Input But Not Indefinitely Because We All Know That If Players Could Let A Village Be Permanently Destroyed The World Would Be In Ruins Within Half An Hour Of Launch, And Anyway If We Coded Events To Happen Only Once We Would Have To Hire 100 More Content Developers And Then We Really Would Have To Sell More Copies Than WoW To Make A Profit"
But that was too long, so they just shortened it to Dynamic Events.
*This is not a true story.
On one of their releases about the game, they gave the Dredges example. The Dredges are like a mole-man race from GW lore.
The dynamic events works somwhat like this: You're warned that the Dredges are assaulting a nearby fort and they need your help defending it. There are two outcomes, you defend it and drive the Dredges back to their caves, wich open the possibility of venturing on those caves and more Dynamic quests branching advancing to push them deeper into the earth and culminating in assaulting the Dredge King.
The other outcome is failing to defend the Fort. In this case they'll set up an outpost there, the area will now be infested with Dredge mobs and they'll launch regular attacks to nearby settlements, wich if not stopped will conquer those settlements and driving the NPCs away form there.
The Dynamic events are like a Stair, where the first event is a step on the middle of it. If you suceed you go up one step, otherwise you go down one and each step has two different outcomes. They gave only simple examples of that, only two different outcames and I haven't read anything talking about more than that. One thing they said is that depending on the outcomes of some events you'll have access to new ones that doesn't exactly belong to that chain but are related to the lore of the original event, wich are dynamic events by themselves.
I you think about it, the mechanic IS symple, but the possibilities are huge. The only thing that concerns me is how those events will "reset". After you kill the Dredge King does it just comes back to "The Dredges are attacking the Fort" event? In my opinion the event should disappear for a couple of days, them you recieve news that a new Dredge king has risen and he is mustering a powerful attack to retake their caves and take the fort once and for all. What would that mean? That now the dynamic event started on the top step of the stair, but the Dredge mobs will be a lot more powerful now and they'll just steamroll all the other steps unless the players gather a much more significant army. That would make the players feel the thrill that they CAN lose.
We've seen that Dynamic events scale on difficulty depending on how many player are undertaking it. I think some should randomly scale to a harder level, to force the players to really try to hold that, or lose. Doesn't matter how wonderful and dynamic those events are, if they're too easy, they won't be fun.
Wrapping up, I'm really excited about GW2 and everything until now looks just wonderful. Arena.Net never let me down, gave me up, never ran around and deserted me, let's just hope they keep that score.
"I you think about it, the mechanic IS symple, but the possibilities are huge. The only thing that concerns me is how those events will "reset". After you kill the Dredge King does it just comes back to "The Dredges are attacking the Fort" event? In my opinion the event should disappear for a couple of days, them you recieve news that a new Dredge king has risen and he is mustering a powerful attack to retake their caves and take the fort once and for all. What would that mean? That now the dynamic event started on the top step of the stair, but the Dredge mobs will be a lot more powerful now and they'll just steamroll all the other steps unless the players gather a much more significant army. That would make the players feel the thrill that they CAN lose."
In the centaurs example they game it worked exactly as you stated. The event disappears for a while as the centaurs work on finding a new leader. Then the attack begins anew. I don't believe that the mobs will be more powerful at that point, but the event will disappear for some amount of time while the new leader is found.
*The quote feature was being screwy.
Steam: Neph
I like the stair example but in the end to me, it feels like a bioware RPG and while cool, isnt dynamic. I can do the same thing , rinse repeat and get a specific set of outcomes. Known outcomes indicate a static pattern. You can call it dynamic but in SWTOR you can do the same thing (like in their other RPG's) that give greater variety but its not some bleeding edge concept is my point, its a different name for an old concept (RPG's having different options). Like any RPG its fun to run through maybe one or two times and try different things (Save Megaton or Blow it up) but once you have tried the different options the "dynamic" feel wont be there. I appreciate all the good dialogue, nice to gave a good chat about games, the we want's and optimism.
You are of course totally right to compare dynamic events to things that happen in regular RPGs, since that is actually what ArenaNet is going for - "putting the RPG back into the MMO" as they say. And while it is true that there are multi-branched quests in SWTOR as well, what separates Dynamic Events from the storyline in GW2 and the class storyline in SWTOR is that they take place in the open world and are accessible to everybody, of any class, rank or alignment.
Don't think that I am bashing the points you're making, Mordeath, as your observations are very good and you've obviously given this a lot of thought; it's just that you're not using the definition of dynamic properly. Dynamic doesn't mean infinite possibilities, and it doesn't mean procedurally generated, or completely unpredictable. It just means "constantly changing." And if that makes it "just like any other quest," (which I don't believe, as enumerated in many examples above) well then I guess the fault is of other developers for not using the term to describe their quests first!
I'm truly sorry that you feel Dynamic events don't feel unpredictable, or limitless, or anything else that the word Dynamic doesn't encompass, however. That would certainly be an interesting MMO to play (although I feel it would be griefed into a crater within an hour of launch if it were truly unpredictable and limitless; such is the result of sharing the world with unscrupulous sorts!).
It was certainly interesting footage and I'd like to see more on how the other elements will hang together as a whole.
The only thing I worry about is if it'll become this sites new WAR or Darkfall, where the rampant optimistic hype won't live up to the end product and the melodrama starts all again. Is there a 'GW2 IZ DA BOMB WOW IZ DED!!', topic yet? :P