I played EQ2 for many years and was involved in some of the beta testing for VG and must say that if Sigil had not dropped the ball and could have kept away from SOE that VG would have blown EQ2 out of the water.
Once Sigil got in bed with SOE and SOE forced the launch of the game before the game was ready the game was doomed. Players are more and more not putting up with bad launches and games that have so many issues when the game goes live. All of the beta testers were against the launch and knew that it was a bad idea and voiced this fact but were ignored.
One thing that I disagree with in the comparison between these 2 games is the fact that since SOE has taken over VG they have taken away just as many features as things they have tried to smooth out. One of the things that got low marks for VG was character customization and graphics, as soon as SOE had control they took away alot of the customization features that were in the game.
If SOE put half as much effort into VG as they do with EQ2, VG would IMHO be the best offerring in the games they offer. One big thing that I have noticed is the fact that it seems lately that some of the scripted boss fights in EQ2 end game are copies of some of the things that were done in VG. The one that stands out the most is one of the boss fights in the Lavastorm instances were the Boss needs to be constantly moved because he drops bombs that you need to stay away from, this was done in VG in the spore boss in the flying mount questline in VG.
As long as SOE is in control of VG it will probably continue to decline and they will continue to rob from it to add to EQ2 like flying mounts that they say are coming to EQ2 soon. Sadly it is a fact because if Sigil would have had their ducks in a row and not dropped the ball VG would have been one of the greats.
Seriously how many servers and players does Vanguard even have anymore? Less then 10K subscribers and closing servers every year? Guess some people are in denial and have to continue beating the dead horse that is their holy grail game, rather then face the grim fact that vanguard was and still is a poor game thats time has passed.
If you have fun with vanguard fine, have fun till they finally pull the plug, but please stop trying to tell the over 90% of players that have tried vanguard and left that its "Fixed" or "growing" Fun is subjective, but numbers are not and the numbers say Vanguard is Dying, and if very few are playing it, one would have to conclude that for most its not fun.
Sure SOE could pump money into it, but while one can spray perfume on a turd, its still a turd. So throw good money after bad?
I played EQ2 for many years and was involved in some of the beta testing for VG and must say that if Sigil had not dropped the ball and could have kept away from SOE that VG would have blown EQ2 out of the water.
Once Sigil got in bed with SOE and SOE forced the launch of the game before the game was ready the game was doomed. Players are more and more not putting up with bad launches and games that have so many issues when the game goes live. All of the beta testers were against the launch and knew that it was a bad idea and voiced this fact but were ignored.
One thing that I disagree with in the comparison between these 2 games is the fact that since SOE has taken over VG they have taken away just as many features as things they have tried to smooth out. One of the things that got low marks for VG was character customization and graphics, as soon as SOE had control they took away alot of the customization features that were in the game.
If SOE put half as much effort into VG as they do with EQ2, VG would IMHO be the best offerring in the games they offer. One big thing that I have noticed is the fact that it seems lately that some of the scripted boss fights in EQ2 end game are copies of some of the things that were done in VG. The one that stands out the most is one of the boss fights in the Lavastorm instances were the Boss needs to be constantly moved because he drops bombs that you need to stay away from, this was done in VG in the spore boss in the flying mount questline in VG.
As long as SOE is in control of VG it will probably continue to decline and they will continue to rob from it to add to EQ2 like flying mounts that they say are coming to EQ2 soon. Sadly it is a fact because if Sigil would have had their ducks in a row and not dropped the ball VG would have been one of the greats.
Humm you mention character customization. On launch VG half giants had exactly 4 hair styles, so what your saying they now have 3 or less?
Also reality check time. Brad blew all his investers money, then he blew Microsofts money, Finally he blew SOE's money for a MMO that was not ready as you say. So the game had no monmey and wasn't ready for launch what should they have done? maybe the US goverment should have bailed it out. Because it pretty unlikely the bill collecters would have just held off, and the employees would have all worked for free, on a MMO blew through over 50 million dollars and had crap to show for it. End the end it was Sigil (brad) that launched Vanguard not SOE, it wasn't till sevreral months later Brad sold off Vanguard to SOE. (you might want to check your facts sometime)
At some point one has to understand investors are not willing to throw unlimited amounts of money into a endless pit that was/is vanguard.
I played EQ2 for many years and was involved in some of the beta testing for VG and must say that if Sigil had not dropped the ball and could have kept away from SOE that VG would have blown EQ2 out of the water.
Once Sigil got in bed with SOE and SOE forced the launch of the game before the game was ready the game was doomed. Players are more and more not putting up with bad launches and games that have so many issues when the game goes live. All of the beta testers were against the launch and knew that it was a bad idea and voiced this fact but were ignored.
One thing that I disagree with in the comparison between these 2 games is the fact that since SOE has taken over VG they have taken away just as many features as things they have tried to smooth out. One of the things that got low marks for VG was character customization and graphics, as soon as SOE had control they took away alot of the customization features that were in the game.
If SOE put half as much effort into VG as they do with EQ2, VG would IMHO be the best offerring in the games they offer. One big thing that I have noticed is the fact that it seems lately that some of the scripted boss fights in EQ2 end game are copies of some of the things that were done in VG. The one that stands out the most is one of the boss fights in the Lavastorm instances were the Boss needs to be constantly moved because he drops bombs that you need to stay away from, this was done in VG in the spore boss in the flying mount questline in VG.
As long as SOE is in control of VG it will probably continue to decline and they will continue to rob from it to add to EQ2 like flying mounts that they say are coming to EQ2 soon. Sadly it is a fact because if Sigil would have had their ducks in a row and not dropped the ball VG would have been one of the greats.
Humm you mention character customization. On launch VG half giants had exactly 4 hair styles, so what your saying they now have 3 or less?
Also reality check time. Brad blew all his investers money, then he blew Microsofts money, Finally he blew SOE's money for a MMO that was not ready as you say. So the game had no monmey and wasn't ready for launch what should they have done? maybe the US goverment should have bailed it out. Because it pretty unlikely the bill collecters would have just held off, and the employees would have all worked for free, on a MMO blew through over 50 million dollars and had crap to show for it. End the end it was Sigil (brad) that launched Vanguard not SOE, it wasn't till sevreral months later Brad sold off Vanguard to SOE. (you might want to check your facts sometime)
At some point one has to understand investors are not willing to throw unlimited amounts of money into a endless pit that was/is vanguard.
Brad McQuaid sold to SOE during closed beta, just an FYI. Shortly after launch is when they started nerfing the whole game and bastardizing it. During development there weren't as many SOE people working on it, but there were a decent amount. After they announced SOE fully took it over is when the nerfbat hit. They burnt through the money because they reimagined every continent numerous times and had to remake them (they used to be larger), which actually led to the third smaller continent. This was well before helmets were even in the game. All the money was spent on just getting the environment to work and classes/unreal engine. Brad McQuaid clearly did not understand development costs in the making, and you can't harp on the game for that. He tried to get the game as close to perfect as he can, but so soon after WoW every company just wanted an MMO right now instead of giving it the time and development costs necessary. He didn't understand modern costs, they just wanted a big name to throw at the WoW juggernaut. All said and done, in closed beta/open the game was phenomenal.
Oh come on, crafting in EQ2 is approaching the absurd. one of the poorer crafting systems I have experienced. I can't imagine giving it a 9/10, maybe a 4 if I was generous.
Only thing I could think of is that the OP has never crafted much in good crafting systems. You should get and play more before judging a craptastic system as being good.
Back when I played EQ2 (before they made major changes to the game, dunno how it is now) the crafting system was top notch. I could go out and fight and gather materials, then go back to the city and craft for hours upon hours.
I loved the EQ2 crafting system, there was an element of risk involved (it was rare, but you could lose all your materials,) and there was so many things you could do with so many different materials. Even a newbie could start crafting and feel like they were doing something productive, but it still took time and effort to become really good at crafting. There was even a separate XP bar for crafting. In all., the system was fun.
Which was one area I found WoW to be lacking. I went from EQ2's brilliant crafting system to the boring, worthless crap that WoW calls a crafting system. I was dissapointed. I've used crafting systems from all sorts of game, from EQ2 to WoW to LOTRO to City of Heroes' invention system to Fallen Earth's good crafting system and while some systems have come close (like Fallen Earth's,) I still think EQ2's was the best and most fun crafting system I've tried.
'All said and done, in closed beta/open the game was phenomenal. '
LOL
This game earned its reputation as a colossal disaster during the beta. Waterworld was better received than VG beta. And not just because of the bugs, the entire game was a disaster. Brad may have had his vision, but his programmers were more incompetent then the 1962 Mets. That said, I like Waterworld and the Mets won the world series seven years later. So it was a likable disaster with potential, but phenomenal is probably the direct opposite of how VG beta really was.
I think both crafting systems are horrendous. Why? Because leveling them is a boring grind. There is no fun at all, for me, in either system's leveling. However, both of them have very useful tradeskills. they might both be 9/10 in terms of crafting usefulness, but 2/10 in leveling.
'All said and done, in closed beta/open the game was phenomenal. '
LOL
This game earned its reputation as a colossal disaster during the beta. Waterworld was better received than VG beta. And not just because of the bugs, the entire game was a disaster. Brad may have had his vision, but his programmers were more incompetent then the 1962 Mets. That said, I like Waterworld and the Mets won the world series seven years later. So it was a likable disaster with potential, but phenomenal is probably the direct opposite of how VG beta really was.
As someone who played it, it was. It was extremely EQ feeling. Before any nerfs, before any of the handholding they had. It was updated EQ, which is exactly what I wanted it to be. The only bugs I ever had issues with were falling through the world rarely, teleporting into the boat dock (imagine titanic except...in a dock), and the enemies vanishing only to come running back at hyper speed. Though my friend died so many times while trying to get crafting recipes running through high level places that he couldn't gain xp anymore, which would have sucked it if happened to me, but it didn't. In beta everyone was pretty on board with it and really enjoyed it, it was when it was released and all they did was nerf it and do nothing with the bugs and still no flying mounts/helms/etc was when it got murdered. I assure you, beta was vastly different than the release game, with the fact that "it's beta" so the bugs were kinda ok at the time kept in mind though bugs aren't what I'm talking about, it's the gameplay.
'I assure you, beta was vastly different than the release game, with the fact that "it's beta" so the bugs were kinda ok at the time kept in mind though bugs aren't what I'm talking about, it's the gameplay.'
I played during beta too. It was *NOT* vastly different than release. People were NOT 'on board' with it. Not sure if places like Silky Venom have archived forums, but if they do go back and poke around and refresh your memory.
Someone needs to go to SOE HQ and interview them about Vanguard and push them to put more resources towards it's development...Vanguard is a brilliant game and I really wish more would be done for it. F*** EQ2!
I agree for all but the F*****EQ" part.
Imo Vanguard is the best mmorpg out there atm, eq2 is also a good game but litele different from vg. I hope soe will take more things witth them from Vanguard then EQ2 when they set the world of Everquest Next.
'I assure you, beta was vastly different than the release game, with the fact that "it's beta" so the bugs were kinda ok at the time kept in mind though bugs aren't what I'm talking about, it's the gameplay.'
I played during beta too. It was *NOT* vastly different than release. People were NOT 'on board' with it. Not sure if places like Silky Venom have archived forums, but if they do go back and poke around and refresh your memory.
Everybody I played with enjoyed it and was having a blast. I still remember my first group, it was for the first dungeon in the Dark Elf area and I grouped with a guy from France. It brought back EQ memories so hard it almost hurt. A lot of people are QQbears about bugs and were acting like the game should have been spotless in closed beta, I don't count them because well....they're stupid. It was a huge game to begin with. When WoW came out, and especially in beta, it was one great big bugfest. The only reason they were able to fix some is because the game is literally sandbox sized as compared to the desert that was vanguard. People just seem to have no grasp on what actually goes into making a game and resort to calling people like the devs useless when they wouldn't know what to do in their shoes.
So I will have to disagree with a few things the op had to say. One being there is no pvp in eq2. We got 2 servers that have a very healthy population and that is all they do is pvp. Also we added battle grounds to the other servers, and I know a lot of folks who do pvp. PvP in eq2 is not my cup of tee, and if I want pvp I will go play counter strike or something like that.
Now on to my second thing giving the population for vanguard a 5/10, Ahem, and 2 servers, I thought they had merged to one server, or that was the plans I read. That should have been a 1/10.
I looked into vanguard and had actually played it during beta and for 3 months after it rolled out. You had to have a great rig to play it. It was bug ridden, and lagged badly. You would get near players and your fps would virtually drag to a crawl. The game lost a ton of players after the first three months. The one thing that can truly be said was for a long time that SOE totaly ignored vanguard, and now they are down to one dev. Vanguard is on life support, and it was even pulled off station access.
It really is a shame it could have been a great game, but I think it had such a bad start, coupled with the soe has no support for it, that soon it will be a memory just like the matrix.
So I will have to disagree with a few things the op had to say. One being there is no pvp in eq2. We got 2 servers that have a very healthy population and that is all they do is pvp. Also we added battle grounds to the other servers, and I know a lot of folks who do pvp. PvP in eq2 is not my cup of tee, and if I want pvp I will go play counter strike or something like that.
Now on to my second thing giving the population for vanguard a 5/10, Ahem, and 2 servers, I thought they had merged to one server, or that was the plans I read. That should have been a 1/10.
I looked into vanguard and had actually played it during beta and for 3 months after it rolled out. You had to have a great rig to play it. It was bug ridden, and lagged badly. You would get near players and your fps would virtually drag to a crawl. The game lost a ton of players after the first three months. The one thing that can truly be said was for a long time that SOE totaly ignored vanguard, and now they are down to one dev. Vanguard is on life support, and it was even pulled off station access.
It really is a shame it could have been a great game, but I think it had such a bad start, coupled with the soe has no support for it, that soon it will be a memory just like the matrix.
Much of what you point out also applies to EQ2.
Most of the pvp servers have been closed, battlegrounds are heading to the backburner where they will be mostly ignored just as the previous pvp attempts. The majority of eq2 servers are heading for another round of server mergers, because populations are low.
EQ2 was and in some cases is just as buggy and laggy as VG. Something always seems to be plaguing the game.
There really is a lot of similarities between both games and they make for a good comparison. Both have great potential and set out to be the successor to EQ1, but have been held back by various problems of similar natures.
It would seem that the business practice of managing a business not to fail instead of to succeed is alive and well in the MMO world. With VG and even EQ2 Sony has taken the position of lets keep it profitable and manage costs which results in a slowly descending spiral of death instead of saying hey lets put some money into this product, relaunch it and generate some buzz and if it fails well then at least we know we tried.
The problem with the game business is that it has become a business. This is not to say that making money and keeping the doors isn't important but it seems to be throttling the development and support of games. The latest spasm of throwing things over to F2P is just the final kicks of the corpse as it is being lowered into the coffin.
Vanguard is one of the most under-rated games I've ever seen (and some people think the scores for it here were too high?!). I love the comment I saw early on here about it being 'past its prime'- if you're talking about graphics, then certainly, there's no way that a game made years ago can compare to a newer title by any stretch of the imagination (and especially not when their production team is so small that a global texture update is completely out of the question). However, if you're talking about the game as a whole, then the 'prime' of the game is 'today', as every day the game is more solid than the last. I daresay that the population, all being on one server these days, is better in player-per-square-mile in-game than it was at launch, and perfectly comparable to the experience you'd have on any other MMO that doesn't pack their population into enclosed spaces like chickens in a slaughterhouse.
Sony destroyed a lot of what would have made Vanguard the greatest MMO around simply by purchasing it. They had no intention to make it great, and they proved that when they launched it with beta-level completeness- the anger I felt the first day I read a press report saying that SOE picked up VG a few months before its launch hasn't faded in the slightest even now. All the same, Vanguard is possibly the most immersive, enjoyable, and well-conceived MMO I've ever seen- even if it doesn't quite reach the level of 'perfection' it could have easily achieved if Sony had never gotten involved.
And to all of the people commenting here who have been voicing similar thoughts to my own: I'm with you my brothers and sisters.
Do you play Go? (Weiqi, Baduk, iGo) ------------------------------------------
As someone who has played both games, I like what both have to offer though I tend to like EQ2 just a little bit more simply from the point of view of character customisation as one progresses through the game and the content available. What VG has though is better done.
I wonder why two SoE games were pitted against each other. People can choose to play both games if they have the Station Pass. It would be more relevent to compare EQ2 to a non-SoE game, wouldn't it? I would compare the value of playing EQ2Ex in comparison to something like RoM for example.
Vanguard is one of the most under-rated games I've ever seen (and some people think the scores for it here were too high?!). I love the comment I saw early on here about it being 'past its prime'- if you're talking about graphics, then certainly, there's no way that a game made years ago can compare to a newer title by any stretch of the imagination (and especially not when their production team is so small that a global texture update is completely out of the question). However, if you're talking about the game as a whole, then the 'prime' of the game is 'today', as every day the game is more solid than the last. I daresay that the population, all being on one server these days, is better in player-per-square-mile in-game than it was at launch, and perfectly comparable to the experience you'd have on any other MMO that doesn't pack their population into enclosed spaces like chickens in a slaughterhouse.
Most of the quality aspects of vanguard have existed in their current state for years already. The immersive nature of the game and the concepts have always been good since release. The graphics are still impressive 3 years later. That was not why I said the game is past its prime.
Obviously it is passed its population prime and merging down to 1 server isn't going to fix the reasons why it got into that situation in the first place. It is also obviously past its prime in terms of development team.
Going beyond that, the game peaked durings its 1-50 era which was some time ago. The expansion of the game to add levels 51-55 added little more than a horrible grind with no equivelent end game to justify the poor game design that was added. Soe left an aborted project live and is never going to finish it, so the game is in a lesser state because of that. Soe spent roughly the first two years of the game revamping and finishing work that Sigil already had in progress when they purchased vanguard. Once that ran out things took a dive as silus put his design ideas into effect and they were not very good.
Maybe the game is getting "more solid than the last", but it has effectively slide down a good deal just to make the possible. Yes I think the game has long since passed its prime and right now is in its death throws.
Vanguard is one of the most under-rated games I've ever seen (and some people think the scores for it here were too high?!). I love the comment I saw early on here about it being 'past its prime'- if you're talking about graphics, then certainly, there's no way that a game made years ago can compare to a newer title by any stretch of the imagination (and especially not when their production team is so small that a global texture update is completely out of the question). However, if you're talking about the game as a whole, then the 'prime' of the game is 'today', as every day the game is more solid than the last. I daresay that the population, all being on one server these days, is better in player-per-square-mile in-game than it was at launch, and perfectly comparable to the experience you'd have on any other MMO that doesn't pack their population into enclosed spaces like chickens in a slaughterhouse.
Most of the quality aspects of vanguard have existed in their current state for years already. The immersive nature of the game and the concepts have always been good since release. The graphics are still impressive 3 years later. That was not why I said the game is past its prime.
Obviously it is passed its population prime and merging down to 1 server isn't going to fix the reasons why it got into that situation in the first place. It is also obviously past its prime in terms of development team.
Going beyond that, the game peaked durings its 1-50 era which was some time ago. The expansion of the game to add levels 51-55 added little more than a horrible grind with no equivelent end game to justify the poor game design that was added. Soe left an aborted project live and is never going to finish it, so the game is in a lesser state because of that. Soe spent roughly the first two years of the game revamping and finishing work that Sigil already had in progress when they purchased vanguard. Once that ran out things took a dive as silus put his design ideas into effect and they were not very good.
Maybe the game is getting "more solid than the last", but it has effectively slide down a good deal just to make the possible. Yes I think the game has long since passed its prime and right now is in its death throws.
Lets be very honest here. The dev staff is now one person. They are merging to one server. This game is almost dead, however I know Smedley has said as long as the numbers are there to support the one server they will not close the game.
Lets face it, if it were such a great game, then were are all the folks who have played it, most have moved on except the hard core fan-boy player. Heck SOE does not even advertise it and if you wanted to add it to your station pass it is a bit tricky to find on the web site as it is buried very last one on the second page. Heck SOE does not even advertise EQ2.
If it were so great then were are the flock of folks wanting to play it, I will tell you where they look at the SOE title on and and go no way. Others left the game for valid reasons. Lack of raiding, lack of bug fixing and what not, and most of those will never ever come back.
I re-subbed about 6 months back after given a free 15 day as SOE normal does, and I saw the same bugs, the same lack of folks playing it, and the same immature folks in the regional chat all 5 of them. After my sub ran out I let it lapse again.
We can go on about how great the game was, with it being a huge world and what not, but the game really had major problems that were never fixed.
Honestly I am surprised that even after the mergers it still alive. Kind of reminds me of SWG.
However I got a feeling once SOE gets EQ Next as they call it cranked up; that i where they will be putting most of the eggs in the basket, and even EQ2 will at that point go the way of the do do bird. After all the GU57 and the 3rd coming round of fighter nerfs that followed for eq2, with downgraded particle effects and downgraded graphics, SOE is doing its best to kill that game as well, and then move folks over to the free to play version.
Neither game is worth the time, both games are on their way down, both are minimally supported, and all but the hardcore fans of each gave up a long time ago. Both are in terrible shape and have been "managed" right into the ground.
And as if coincidentally, both are run by SOE.
A company that has an unrivaled ability to turn gold into lead.
(P.S. How is talking about two 5+ year old games, in any way news?)
P.S. How is talking about two 5+ year old games, in any way news?
The "news" is that the 6 year-old games (EQ2, WoW) are still better than the majority of titles released in the past 6 years. Vanguard is only 3 years-old btw (despite managing to being about 10 years behind everyone else in design, but i guess that was sorta the point).
But hey, the next round is upon us! Let's see if Rift/Tera/GW2/SWTOR can do any better than the VG/WAR/AoC round!
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Neither game is worth the time, both games are on their way down, both are minimally supported, and all but the hardcore fans of each gave up a long time ago. Both are in terrible shape and have been "managed" right into the ground.
And as if coincidentally, both are run by SOE.
A company that has an unrivaled ability to turn gold into lead.
(P.S. How is talking about two 5+ year old games, in any way news?)
EQ2 is still being developed and has had quite a few expansions more than most games of its age. VG hasn't been developed, which is why it's in a bad state, but EQ2 is not in a bad state for a game of its age.
The Extended service is proving to be pretty popular so far and is probably a good way to attract some new players to EQ2. I think overall it was a good decision to open it up. Whether it turns out to be good value for money for the customer remains to be seen.
For a typical MMO, EQ2 has had decent player numbers over the years. They were never stellar, in comparison to WoW's, but in comparison to other games, they have been respectable numbers.
In the case of VG, the problem is that it hasn't been managed that much. It has had bug fixes, but content-wise it hasn't seen much addition to the original game. A lot of players I have spoken to in and out of VG have said they won't subscribe to a game that won't have continuous development because past leveling there isn't a lot to do in VG. It's a vicious circle in that game's case.
I think EQ2 will be around for quite a long time. VG I'm not as hopeful for.
Neither game is worth the time, both games are on their way down, both are minimally supported, and all but the hardcore fans of each gave up a long time ago. Both are in terrible shape and have been "managed" right into the ground.
And as if coincidentally, both are run by SOE.
A company that has an unrivaled ability to turn gold into lead.
(P.S. How is talking about two 5+ year old games, in any way news?)
EQ2 is still being developed and has had quite a few expansions more than most games of its age. VG hasn't been developed, which is why it's in a bad state, but EQ2 is not in a bad state for a game of its age.
The Extended service is proving to be pretty popular so far and is probably a good way to attract some new players to EQ2. I think overall it was a good decision to open it up. Whether it turns out to be good value for money for the customer remains to be seen.
For a typical MMO, EQ2 has had decent player numbers over the years. They were never stellar, in comparison to WoW's, but in comparison to other games, they have been respectable numbers.
In the case of VG, the problem is that it hasn't been managed that much. It has had bug fixes, but content-wise it hasn't seen much addition to the original game. A lot of players I have spoken to in and out of VG have said they won't subscribe to a game that won't have continuous development because past leveling there isn't a lot to do in VG. It's a vicious circle in that game's case.
I think EQ2 will be around for quite a long time. VG I'm not as hopeful for.
Well, it can't be doing that well, with SOE trying every gimmick in the book to grind out a few more $$$. Station cash (after Smed explictly saying it wouldn't get it), this new F2p-esqe scam, the trading card stuff... none of that would have been necessary had the game actually been doing well. And player numbers (especially paying customers) have reportedly continue to fall.
As for saying EQ2 is doing better than VG, means what exactly? SOE hasn't supported that game for years, and it will shortly be down to one server.
In the end, it doesn't matter much. Both games are in the "old pile" as far as SOE is concerned and all of those games will be getting just enough support to not die, and no more. SOE is putting all the effort and money in to the new things they are shoveling out.
Comments
I played EQ2 for many years and was involved in some of the beta testing for VG and must say that if Sigil had not dropped the ball and could have kept away from SOE that VG would have blown EQ2 out of the water.
Once Sigil got in bed with SOE and SOE forced the launch of the game before the game was ready the game was doomed. Players are more and more not putting up with bad launches and games that have so many issues when the game goes live. All of the beta testers were against the launch and knew that it was a bad idea and voiced this fact but were ignored.
One thing that I disagree with in the comparison between these 2 games is the fact that since SOE has taken over VG they have taken away just as many features as things they have tried to smooth out. One of the things that got low marks for VG was character customization and graphics, as soon as SOE had control they took away alot of the customization features that were in the game.
If SOE put half as much effort into VG as they do with EQ2, VG would IMHO be the best offerring in the games they offer. One big thing that I have noticed is the fact that it seems lately that some of the scripted boss fights in EQ2 end game are copies of some of the things that were done in VG. The one that stands out the most is one of the boss fights in the Lavastorm instances were the Boss needs to be constantly moved because he drops bombs that you need to stay away from, this was done in VG in the spore boss in the flying mount questline in VG.
As long as SOE is in control of VG it will probably continue to decline and they will continue to rob from it to add to EQ2 like flying mounts that they say are coming to EQ2 soon. Sadly it is a fact because if Sigil would have had their ducks in a row and not dropped the ball VG would have been one of the greats.
Seriously how many servers and players does Vanguard even have anymore? Less then 10K subscribers and closing servers every year? Guess some people are in denial and have to continue beating the dead horse that is their holy grail game, rather then face the grim fact that vanguard was and still is a poor game thats time has passed.
If you have fun with vanguard fine, have fun till they finally pull the plug, but please stop trying to tell the over 90% of players that have tried vanguard and left that its "Fixed" or "growing" Fun is subjective, but numbers are not and the numbers say Vanguard is Dying, and if very few are playing it, one would have to conclude that for most its not fun.
Sure SOE could pump money into it, but while one can spray perfume on a turd, its still a turd. So throw good money after bad?
Humm you mention character customization. On launch VG half giants had exactly 4 hair styles, so what your saying they now have 3 or less?
Also reality check time. Brad blew all his investers money, then he blew Microsofts money, Finally he blew SOE's money for a MMO that was not ready as you say. So the game had no monmey and wasn't ready for launch what should they have done? maybe the US goverment should have bailed it out. Because it pretty unlikely the bill collecters would have just held off, and the employees would have all worked for free, on a MMO blew through over 50 million dollars and had crap to show for it. End the end it was Sigil (brad) that launched Vanguard not SOE, it wasn't till sevreral months later Brad sold off Vanguard to SOE. (you might want to check your facts sometime)
At some point one has to understand investors are not willing to throw unlimited amounts of money into a endless pit that was/is vanguard.
Brad McQuaid sold to SOE during closed beta, just an FYI. Shortly after launch is when they started nerfing the whole game and bastardizing it. During development there weren't as many SOE people working on it, but there were a decent amount. After they announced SOE fully took it over is when the nerfbat hit. They burnt through the money because they reimagined every continent numerous times and had to remake them (they used to be larger), which actually led to the third smaller continent. This was well before helmets were even in the game. All the money was spent on just getting the environment to work and classes/unreal engine. Brad McQuaid clearly did not understand development costs in the making, and you can't harp on the game for that. He tried to get the game as close to perfect as he can, but so soon after WoW every company just wanted an MMO right now instead of giving it the time and development costs necessary. He didn't understand modern costs, they just wanted a big name to throw at the WoW juggernaut. All said and done, in closed beta/open the game was phenomenal.
Back when I played EQ2 (before they made major changes to the game, dunno how it is now) the crafting system was top notch. I could go out and fight and gather materials, then go back to the city and craft for hours upon hours.
I loved the EQ2 crafting system, there was an element of risk involved (it was rare, but you could lose all your materials,) and there was so many things you could do with so many different materials. Even a newbie could start crafting and feel like they were doing something productive, but it still took time and effort to become really good at crafting. There was even a separate XP bar for crafting. In all., the system was fun.
Which was one area I found WoW to be lacking. I went from EQ2's brilliant crafting system to the boring, worthless crap that WoW calls a crafting system. I was dissapointed. I've used crafting systems from all sorts of game, from EQ2 to WoW to LOTRO to City of Heroes' invention system to Fallen Earth's good crafting system and while some systems have come close (like Fallen Earth's,) I still think EQ2's was the best and most fun crafting system I've tried.
As someone who played it, it was. It was extremely EQ feeling. Before any nerfs, before any of the handholding they had. It was updated EQ, which is exactly what I wanted it to be. The only bugs I ever had issues with were falling through the world rarely, teleporting into the boat dock (imagine titanic except...in a dock), and the enemies vanishing only to come running back at hyper speed. Though my friend died so many times while trying to get crafting recipes running through high level places that he couldn't gain xp anymore, which would have sucked it if happened to me, but it didn't. In beta everyone was pretty on board with it and really enjoyed it, it was when it was released and all they did was nerf it and do nothing with the bugs and still no flying mounts/helms/etc was when it got murdered. I assure you, beta was vastly different than the release game, with the fact that "it's beta" so the bugs were kinda ok at the time kept in mind though bugs aren't what I'm talking about, it's the gameplay.
I agree for all but the F*****EQ" part.
Imo Vanguard is the best mmorpg out there atm, eq2 is also a good game but litele different from vg. I hope soe will take more things witth them from Vanguard then EQ2 when they set the world of Everquest Next.
Everybody I played with enjoyed it and was having a blast. I still remember my first group, it was for the first dungeon in the Dark Elf area and I grouped with a guy from France. It brought back EQ memories so hard it almost hurt. A lot of people are QQbears about bugs and were acting like the game should have been spotless in closed beta, I don't count them because well....they're stupid. It was a huge game to begin with. When WoW came out, and especially in beta, it was one great big bugfest. The only reason they were able to fix some is because the game is literally sandbox sized as compared to the desert that was vanguard. People just seem to have no grasp on what actually goes into making a game and resort to calling people like the devs useless when they wouldn't know what to do in their shoes.
So I will have to disagree with a few things the op had to say. One being there is no pvp in eq2. We got 2 servers that have a very healthy population and that is all they do is pvp. Also we added battle grounds to the other servers, and I know a lot of folks who do pvp. PvP in eq2 is not my cup of tee, and if I want pvp I will go play counter strike or something like that.
Now on to my second thing giving the population for vanguard a 5/10, Ahem, and 2 servers, I thought they had merged to one server, or that was the plans I read. That should have been a 1/10.
I looked into vanguard and had actually played it during beta and for 3 months after it rolled out. You had to have a great rig to play it. It was bug ridden, and lagged badly. You would get near players and your fps would virtually drag to a crawl. The game lost a ton of players after the first three months. The one thing that can truly be said was for a long time that SOE totaly ignored vanguard, and now they are down to one dev. Vanguard is on life support, and it was even pulled off station access.
It really is a shame it could have been a great game, but I think it had such a bad start, coupled with the soe has no support for it, that soon it will be a memory just like the matrix.
Much of what you point out also applies to EQ2.
Most of the pvp servers have been closed, battlegrounds are heading to the backburner where they will be mostly ignored just as the previous pvp attempts. The majority of eq2 servers are heading for another round of server mergers, because populations are low.
EQ2 was and in some cases is just as buggy and laggy as VG. Something always seems to be plaguing the game.
There really is a lot of similarities between both games and they make for a good comparison. Both have great potential and set out to be the successor to EQ1, but have been held back by various problems of similar natures.
I miss VG... gonna talk my friend into resubing with me again!
It would seem that the business practice of managing a business not to fail instead of to succeed is alive and well in the MMO world. With VG and even EQ2 Sony has taken the position of lets keep it profitable and manage costs which results in a slowly descending spiral of death instead of saying hey lets put some money into this product, relaunch it and generate some buzz and if it fails well then at least we know we tried.
The problem with the game business is that it has become a business. This is not to say that making money and keeping the doors isn't important but it seems to be throttling the development and support of games. The latest spasm of throwing things over to F2P is just the final kicks of the corpse as it is being lowered into the coffin.
have to say that author lost all his credibility with me after i read "Diplomacy is also a card game of sorts which to be quite honest, confused me,"
diplomacy was/is imho one of the best thought up and inovative MMORPG systems i saw in years.
thinking about resubbing to VG too.....i played beta too and yeah it had bugs.....but alround the game realy wasnt that bad at release imo.
Vanguard is one of the most under-rated games I've ever seen (and some people think the scores for it here were too high?!). I love the comment I saw early on here about it being 'past its prime'- if you're talking about graphics, then certainly, there's no way that a game made years ago can compare to a newer title by any stretch of the imagination (and especially not when their production team is so small that a global texture update is completely out of the question). However, if you're talking about the game as a whole, then the 'prime' of the game is 'today', as every day the game is more solid than the last. I daresay that the population, all being on one server these days, is better in player-per-square-mile in-game than it was at launch, and perfectly comparable to the experience you'd have on any other MMO that doesn't pack their population into enclosed spaces like chickens in a slaughterhouse.
Sony destroyed a lot of what would have made Vanguard the greatest MMO around simply by purchasing it. They had no intention to make it great, and they proved that when they launched it with beta-level completeness- the anger I felt the first day I read a press report saying that SOE picked up VG a few months before its launch hasn't faded in the slightest even now. All the same, Vanguard is possibly the most immersive, enjoyable, and well-conceived MMO I've ever seen- even if it doesn't quite reach the level of 'perfection' it could have easily achieved if Sony had never gotten involved.
And to all of the people commenting here who have been voicing similar thoughts to my own: I'm with you my brothers and sisters.
Do you play Go? (Weiqi, Baduk, iGo)
------------------------------------------
As someone who has played both games, I like what both have to offer though I tend to like EQ2 just a little bit more simply from the point of view of character customisation as one progresses through the game and the content available. What VG has though is better done.
I wonder why two SoE games were pitted against each other. People can choose to play both games if they have the Station Pass. It would be more relevent to compare EQ2 to a non-SoE game, wouldn't it? I would compare the value of playing EQ2Ex in comparison to something like RoM for example.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Most of the quality aspects of vanguard have existed in their current state for years already. The immersive nature of the game and the concepts have always been good since release. The graphics are still impressive 3 years later. That was not why I said the game is past its prime.
Obviously it is passed its population prime and merging down to 1 server isn't going to fix the reasons why it got into that situation in the first place. It is also obviously past its prime in terms of development team.
Going beyond that, the game peaked durings its 1-50 era which was some time ago. The expansion of the game to add levels 51-55 added little more than a horrible grind with no equivelent end game to justify the poor game design that was added. Soe left an aborted project live and is never going to finish it, so the game is in a lesser state because of that. Soe spent roughly the first two years of the game revamping and finishing work that Sigil already had in progress when they purchased vanguard. Once that ran out things took a dive as silus put his design ideas into effect and they were not very good.
Maybe the game is getting "more solid than the last", but it has effectively slide down a good deal just to make the possible. Yes I think the game has long since passed its prime and right now is in its death throws.
Lets be very honest here. The dev staff is now one person. They are merging to one server. This game is almost dead, however I know Smedley has said as long as the numbers are there to support the one server they will not close the game.
Lets face it, if it were such a great game, then were are all the folks who have played it, most have moved on except the hard core fan-boy player. Heck SOE does not even advertise it and if you wanted to add it to your station pass it is a bit tricky to find on the web site as it is buried very last one on the second page. Heck SOE does not even advertise EQ2.
If it were so great then were are the flock of folks wanting to play it, I will tell you where they look at the SOE title on and and go no way. Others left the game for valid reasons. Lack of raiding, lack of bug fixing and what not, and most of those will never ever come back.
I re-subbed about 6 months back after given a free 15 day as SOE normal does, and I saw the same bugs, the same lack of folks playing it, and the same immature folks in the regional chat all 5 of them. After my sub ran out I let it lapse again.
We can go on about how great the game was, with it being a huge world and what not, but the game really had major problems that were never fixed.
Honestly I am surprised that even after the mergers it still alive. Kind of reminds me of SWG.
However I got a feeling once SOE gets EQ Next as they call it cranked up; that i where they will be putting most of the eggs in the basket, and even EQ2 will at that point go the way of the do do bird. After all the GU57 and the 3rd coming round of fighter nerfs that followed for eq2, with downgraded particle effects and downgraded graphics, SOE is doing its best to kill that game as well, and then move folks over to the free to play version.
Neither game is worth the time, both games are on their way down, both are minimally supported, and all but the hardcore fans of each gave up a long time ago. Both are in terrible shape and have been "managed" right into the ground.
And as if coincidentally, both are run by SOE.
A company that has an unrivaled ability to turn gold into lead.
(P.S. How is talking about two 5+ year old games, in any way news?)
The "news" is that the 6 year-old games (EQ2, WoW) are still better than the majority of titles released in the past 6 years. Vanguard is only 3 years-old btw (despite managing to being about 10 years behind everyone else in design, but i guess that was sorta the point).
But hey, the next round is upon us! Let's see if Rift/Tera/GW2/SWTOR can do any better than the VG/WAR/AoC round!
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
EQ2 is still being developed and has had quite a few expansions more than most games of its age. VG hasn't been developed, which is why it's in a bad state, but EQ2 is not in a bad state for a game of its age.
The Extended service is proving to be pretty popular so far and is probably a good way to attract some new players to EQ2. I think overall it was a good decision to open it up. Whether it turns out to be good value for money for the customer remains to be seen.
For a typical MMO, EQ2 has had decent player numbers over the years. They were never stellar, in comparison to WoW's, but in comparison to other games, they have been respectable numbers.
In the case of VG, the problem is that it hasn't been managed that much. It has had bug fixes, but content-wise it hasn't seen much addition to the original game. A lot of players I have spoken to in and out of VG have said they won't subscribe to a game that won't have continuous development because past leveling there isn't a lot to do in VG. It's a vicious circle in that game's case.
I think EQ2 will be around for quite a long time. VG I'm not as hopeful for.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Well, it can't be doing that well, with SOE trying every gimmick in the book to grind out a few more $$$. Station cash (after Smed explictly saying it wouldn't get it), this new F2p-esqe scam, the trading card stuff... none of that would have been necessary had the game actually been doing well. And player numbers (especially paying customers) have reportedly continue to fall.
As for saying EQ2 is doing better than VG, means what exactly? SOE hasn't supported that game for years, and it will shortly be down to one server.
In the end, it doesn't matter much. Both games are in the "old pile" as far as SOE is concerned and all of those games will be getting just enough support to not die, and no more. SOE is putting all the effort and money in to the new things they are shoveling out.
And I agree that VG will get canned before EQ2.