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Intentional limiting of player strategy has to stop
Creslin321
Member Posts: 5,359
One thing about MMORPGs that has annoyed me more than anything else is how the game developer seems to implicitly or explicitly limit a player's strategy to just one or two viable options, specifically with combat. The first time I encountered this was in Everquest (1).
I was killing orcs in Crushbone and I discovered that I could stand one one side of the river and kill orcs on the other side with spells before they could reach me. After killing a few orcs, I was promptly informed that I was exploiting the pathfinding and could be banned. In other words, unless I fought the monster exactly as the game developers intended me to, I was exploting. To me, this is ridiculous.
Worse though, this trend has continued but in more subtle ways. In WoW for example, if I try to hit a monster than is on a cliff above me, it just evades everytime and is unkillable. It's basically the same exact thing, they are covering up for their poor pathfinding by forcing the player into a specific course of action.
You can also see this type of thing in how skills are designed. There is generally one single "best" way for every class to fight. Once you figure out that rotation, that's all you do. If you try a different approach (and believe me I have) it is almost always inferior to the "optimal" rotation, OR it will be nerfed before too long.
I really think that this trend towards "forcing" players into one course of action has to stop. I realize that there are technical reasons for some of the things the developers do, but it's not really an excuse. The result is that combat boils down to a repititious grind because the game just doesn't allow you to try anything else.
What do you guys think? Do you notice this type of issue as well? Do you consider it a problem?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Comments
Your first one did indeed sound like an exploit of the pathfinding.
Players think they are crafted when they figure out ways to cheat the AI, that isn't strategy it is limited code. If the AI were to be made truly intelligent then the game would crash due to all of the processing overload of all of those creatures running millions of computations. So MMO AI is left fairly basic to keep things running smoothly.
It isn't a feat to figure out ways to overcome this simply AI, it is exploiting it.
Generally anytime I hear a player say "The devs are forcing me to play their way" they are almost always exploiting or cheating something.
Games have rules. Don't play games if you don't like rules.
Yeah I've noticed it, and yes it is a lame way to develop IMO.
LOTRO was exceptionally bad for this in the MoM expansion where certain boss mobs were immune to CC skills that were the bread and butter of the classes thye belonged to essentially reducing every fight to a DPS-a-thon.
If you're going to give players skills to depend on then render them useless, I think that is, excuse the useage, /fail.
Turbines excuse was that those skills would trivialize the new content....well then design better content. Don't take away something players had learned how to use for 2 years and not give them anything other than DPS to compensate.
/end rant
In reality, I do think the devs get a little lazy sometimes, or maybe it's that they are rushed to release content and these types of things are the best they can come up with. I do agree it is getting more prominent lately, although that may be because there are more games out now a days than there use to be as well, so it just seems more prominent.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
If I stand on the other side of a river and start shooting you with a bow...have I exploited because you can't get to me? I don't see how using the terrain can be considered an exploit. "Exploiting" the terran has been a constant theme in real military strategy throughout human history so it's natural for any player to attempt to "exploit" the terran in an MMO.
My view is, if you are using standard in game actions to accomplish something that is actually a reasonable strategy then it should be allowed. If it "breaks the game" then it's due to poor game design.
On the other hand, doing something that obviously "should" not happen, like hitting something through a wall, or using a third party utility to gain an advantage could be considered an exploit.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
The point that you're failing to notice is that the computer can not execute strategy. If you shoot at me across a river with a bow, I could find a different strategy such as hiding, running away, finding my own bow, or rocks, a shield to cross the river with, etc. A computer must execute its code, which in a game as old as EQ was mostly "if at ranged, fire spell or fire bow, if no ability is available find path to player".
Mobs are not smart, they rarely call for help, they don't think creatively because they can't. If you're using a strategy unintended by the developers to gain an advantage in their game they have the right to tell you to stop, its not a personal attack, and its not a criticism of how clever you think you are, you are simply breaking the rules of the game. This is a simple concept, when playing a game don't break the rules, if you didn't know you were breaking the rules then its fair you get warned, which you did.
The solution to most of these issues today are similar either to blizzard where mobs become unhittable when exploited, or they ignore path finding entirely and plow through obstacles like they're not there and then attack you. Ask yourself which version of the game is more palatable, mobs that must follow real pathfinding and require the player to not exploit them, or mechanics built in to counter said players? My vote is the mechanics because you can't trust the players because they live comfortably in denial about cheating.
I'm with Creslin on this. Just because game UI has taken a backseat to shoving more users on fewer computers doesn't mean that he was truly exploiting.
I understand SnarlingWolf's argument about processing time on the server, but it truly is a matter of putting about 1/2 as many characters per server. And servers continue to get cheaper and cheaper, so that isn't a great excuse anymore either.
Unfortunately, due to the corporate owners of most game development companies and the inevitable profit concerns, I don't think game UI will be seriously worked on anytime soon. Much cheaper to use only slightly updated algorithms, and push even more people on even fewer servers (in a corporate mindset, saving a few pennies per user per month is worth cutting for that extra profit over quality experience to the user). However, we can all dream... :-)
Obviously in that case they should hav just reprogrammed the rivers to look like walls so instead of shooting over a river, you are shooting through a wall and thus clearly cheating.
What you had there was the devs poorly disguising a programming limitation. They could not account for the pathfinding program being so limited and kept the barrier as a river for esthetic purposes. So in the end the game rule in effect did not fel valid because it did not feel 'realistic'. If the river was a wall, it would have felt 'realistic' and breaking the rule would have felt like cheating.
I can understand if this lack of 'realism' makes the game less fun to you but once you understand the rules of the game, you either follow them or quit the game.
You're not considering just how difficult it is to program AI. You can't make a few simple lines that will count for everything a player can dream up, that's why PvP is so popular because you have to deal at generally the same level of intelligence. The only solution available in a few lines of code is one that breaks everything except the intended behavior, such as the evading in WoW.
It would be nice if AI was easier to program, but it is incredibly difficult and time consuming. It is one of a million different things developers of a game have to deal with as well. You might want better AI but you end up with 2 fewer classes because those coders couldn't implement the spells, or fewer weapons because those mechanics couldn't be put in.
As long as players are expected to kill thousands of monsters what's the point in making them incredibly smart. If that were reduced to a hundred and each battle was expected to actually be a challenge, I could see the resources being put into a smarter AI. Just a different kind of game entirely where the rules change to reflect that.
So in the situation where the monster can't reach you, would it be so bad to just LET the player exploit the terrain and kill the monster? In games like WoW, there is hardly any downtime between kills, and fights are hardly risky unless you're careless. So you really aren't gaining much by being able to kill a handful of monsters that are placed next to exploitable terran. In fact, it's probably MUCH less efficient to camp exploitable terrain than it is to just kill monsters normally.
If we're talking about a raid boss or something where exploting pathfinding could really matter, then the devs should just be careful when they design raid encounters to not let players exploit the pathfinding.
In my opinion, letting a player get a free kill or two is a small price to pay against breaking the "illusion" the game is trying to create by doing things like invincible monsters or even banning players for shooting a monster across a river.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Dont attack the poster, dont attack the poster /deep breath
The first example he gave sounded like he had enough range to kill the monsters before they got to him. He was using in game mechanics to kill the monsters. And why does it matter anyways? Its not like he could do that a secret number of times, hit a button code and DING MAX LEVEL. I mean seriously, in reality he might of done that for one level or less?
I dont consider what he did cheating the UI. And its CHEATING not Cheated. I hate to bring this up, but lets say in real life, I have a bow and arrow and someone is up on a cliff just far enough where its not safe for them to jump but I can hit them. Would my arrow automatically miss? Would I hear an audible cry of IMMUNE? Was I cheating real life?
Generally anytime I hear a player respond in a post and side so blindly with the devs they either are a dev or are a fanbois.
Games have rules, that are prefixed. Unless the rules that are broken are done so through hacks or give some ridiculous advantage---gold duping etc, then I see no problem with it. It is the game companys responsibility to fix it. They have the manpower and its not like they are doing it for free.
Your breaking the rules, your breaking the rules! Bunch of parrots!
Precisely what I was thinking. If you get in trouble for using a ranged weapon in correlation with geographical features, you shouldn't be punished... And if the devs have such a big problem with it (which is a bit rediculous) then they shouldn't say they're going to ban you. They should fix it if it bothers them so much. Don't punish the player for using his brain.
As for the WoW thing, I HATE that... So. Much. So many instances where this just ruined the game for me sometimes.
I would be standing on a four or five foot platform or what have you, and the mob right next to me wouldn't be damaged... You'd think with the amount of cash and man-power Blizz has running that freight train they'd be a little more creative with their pathfinding, and not so cheap in such aspects.
But I'll reiterate, a dev should never punish a player, especially by soemthing as permanent as a ban, for using their own strategies. As long as you're not killing things through solid objects, it should be allowed.
I'm in the OP's boat. The idea here is that no one should be able to do anything the designer's don't want you to do because of balance.
Now, having done more than a thousand hours of work on balancing games, I can tell you it is very, very difficult.
Also, a bunch of focused humans are im-damned-possible to stop. I mean, they will find absolutely every possible hole given time. There is really no possibility of stopping them.
This is the reason why EQ1 took the evil step of adding summon-deathtouch two-step. Given the players and the systems, a mob given incredible HP could still be killed over time using a tank and cleric CH chains. They gave up and added death touch.
I agree EQ1 allowed more brain-power than other games to solve problems. LOTRO, on the other hand, is brain-dead. It is fun, but brain-dead. Like playing an old top or side scroller shooting game over and over. After a while, the process is automatic. But it is also comfortable and easiest for the greatest number of players.
Really hard mobs, really hard zones, or really hard puzzles piss players off. You can't make these "elite" zones either because that pisses players off when they can't have the leet goodies.
A hard niche game would have permadeath, full loot pvp, intelligent AI that uses full speed to kill characters, goes to get help, and other stuff, no map, no compass, and no chat. Mensa (minimum) level puzzles and large spanning-tree mazes with teleports, twists, and darkness would be common. The end result would be 35% or so of players would die every day. Almost everyone would rage-quit in short order. No company wants to shoot itself in the head like that.
The most brain-like game I found was Wizard 101 as at least you needed to plan some strategy with that. Or any online CCG; but that comes down to money until everyone has the FotM deck.
Yeah, I would love a game where my brain would give me an advantage, but we aren't likely to see that soon. After all, make a game that 1% of the world can play and you severely limit scope.
OTOH I wish they would stop pandering to the 6th grade educational level and an IQ of 75 or so.
As another poster mentioned, after easily thinking the situation through. A more robust AI would be many other things then be confused about how to get across the river quickly and be shot to death. They would run for cover in most situations which means the player can no longer exploit the AI. The issue is that AI is not powerful enough in MMOs for that to be the case. You are not being a smart or clever player by doing this, even a 6 year old at the keys could catch on to this and use it, you are simply exploiting a limitiation of the game.
Generally those who exploit also see nothing wrong with it, so it is not surprising for you to take this approach. The majority of people who have no desire to exploit or cheat their way through a game can see the obvious issues with it.
To the other poster who said the solution is to just have less people per server so the AI can be more advanced, that is incorrect. The more advanced the AI gets the more computer processing and memory it takes, EXPONETIALLY. It is not a matter of making the AI twice as good and cutting out half the players. Making the AI twice as good could easily take as much as 10x the amount of resources. Getting the AI up to a level of actual challenge is just not possible with the massively part of MMO with today's amount of hardware.
It would take massive amounts of programming time and massive amounts of resources, they are going to make enough profit to justify those costs.
Exploiters will always think it is fine to exploit so the argument never ends in a resolution. They want to exploit without being punished and will always complain when they do get punished.
To the argument of "Why not just let the player have an occasional mob or two that he can exploit and not worry about it".
People don't stop at doing it once or twice. They will either sit there and do it for a level or worse they will just setup a macro and leave their computer running since there is no risk of dying in that situation.
It never boils down to people just doing it once or twice and moving on.
I don't think that a game will be unsuccessful just because it requires intelligent thought. Look at Starcraft 2, that game is very strategic and it's been super successful.
But you're right that it's all about balance, or more accurately, perceived balance. I think the real issue is that most game designers will always choose balance over immersion, even when having the extra immerson would not damage balance that much. For instance, game developers would rather make monsters that can't find a player immune than just letting the player get a few free kills that would hardly have any affect on their advancement.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I doubt I can convince you why its wrong if you can't see it for yourself by now. In EQ it was a much bigger deal being able to exploit skills because the game was significantly harder, it was not solo friendly, so being able to take down mobs safely while solo is a huge deal.
Proportionally in WoW its not as big a deal, but then again those areas where you can exploit mobs by standing somewhere is also rediculously huge. For example if you wanted you could go and try and find as many spot as you can in every zone where you can get a mob to evade away, I'm betting you would find a fairly rediculous number. They built nice looking collidable terrain, the disadvantage is that mobs are forced into certain path finding. Honestly there are plenty of places where the terrain is nice and useable anyway, its only where they can't get to you period that its an exploit even from Blizzard's level. BTW given blizzard's customer service queue as it stands I'm glad they have a mechanic to prevent people rather than having it filled up with reports of people abusing game mechanics.
I assure you that if players insisted that they be allowed to use the terrain to their advantage the designers would give EVERY mob a ranged attack, most of them would hurt. They would default to normal damage under their correct conditions, but if you try to abuse it you risk getting 1 or 2 shot. Would that be fun? Is that worth the price of being able to use the terrain to your advantage? Developers do their best to find the easiest, most palatable solution to most problems. In this case for blizzard it was an evade mechanic, back in the day with EQ, it was a ban warning.
My point is, players want to abuse stupid AI, but behind the AI are smart developers. Its like picking on a 6 year old child with a really big older brother. You might not like it, but that's the way it is, play by their rules or don't play.
In WoW at least, it is INCREDIBLY inefficient to camp one MOB as opposed to just running around killing whatever you find. I fail to see how camping one "exploitable" spawn is going to break the game.
Also...to your point about macroing. The developer's "intention" of forcing players down one path in nearly every fight has made killing things so simple that macros are incredibly easy to create for just normal combat. There are plenty of bots for WoW that just kill monsters all day, the combat is that simple.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
This is exactly why I find PvP so much more entertaining. It's not my epeen, it's not my ego and it's not to gloat over anything...it's because players will always be the ultimate challenge.
I think it's funny that you think it's wrong to hit something across a river in EQ because it lets you solo in a solo unfriendly game. That's like saying that playing a necro or a mage is wrong because they can solo but other classes can't.
Also...I think you're viewing the abusers of the stupid AI in the incorrect way. When I shoot an orc across a river, I'm not thinking "Oh! Let me exploit this AI and get mad levels!" I'm thinking, "Oh! Let me shoot this Orc who only has a sword from across the river so he can't get to me." It's not "clever" it's just freaking obvious, why would you not do that?
Maybe the "orcs" should not have put a dude with a sword next to the river? All this stuff is, is just a band-aid for poor game/level design. As another poster said, if it bothers the developers so much, they should just fix the problem. Maybe...give the orc by the river a bow. Or just deal with the fact that a player can camp one or two mobs and solo them. Not a big deal in my mind considering that there were classes in EQ 1 that could solo almost anything fine.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Agreed. It's urealistic to expect players to know or assume game rules that defy logic and rational thinking. In the orc and river scenario, there are plenty of ways the developer could logically prevent players from attacking a mob that cannot attack back (the main issue in the scenario).
- make the river wider than the longest attack range
- allow the mob to teleport across
- prevent mobs from coming within x distance of the river's edge
- give the mobs in that area a ranged attack
- fence in or wall up the sides of the river to break LOS
Jessica Mulligan and Turbine's Asheron's Call team were great proponents of the rule that you can't punish the players for logical/reasonable use of game mechanics. Telling a player that it's an exploit to shoot across the river or perch out of reach because the AI is dumb is ... well... rather frustrating for the players.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Abusing the game in one method does not mean that it should be ok to abuse the game in other ways. That is never a correct correlation to make.
Yes an that same AC team was the team responsible for all the bad decisions (most notably everything involving ToD expansion) which caused the population to drop off so significantly.
I wouldn't use people who caused a game to lose 70% of it's subscribers in a short span of time as an example of how to do things.
If I implied that I thought it was okay to macro, then that was not what I meant. I was just pointing out that combat in WoW is so simple even in the "intended" way that macroing is very easy. I don't do it, but I have seen many bots in WoW, as I'm sure you all have (if you've played for a decent amount of time). As such, your argument about people being able to macro to kill MOBs by exploiting the terrain doesn't hold water because they can do that already using the "intended" combat system.
And yes, I would describe unattended macroing as cheating. Unless you're playing Darkfall
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
For me, the bottom line is that it doesn't really matter in most cases, when we are talking about PvE. It sure isn't "strategy", it's exploiting but on the other hand you are just cheating versus the computer. You are harassing mobs, not players. As long as you have fun (you wouldn't do it if you didn't, right?) i don't see where exactly is the problem. Players and devs that go after you in such cases are, in most cases, overreacting.
For the developer, what it matters most is to keep you in game and this is accomplished by providing you fun. Keeping a level playing field is a bit important too, but never by risking a player's fun, which he does if he goes after him for exploiting. If it truly is that important, he should be patching the exploit rather than going after players. (i am still talking about PvE only)
And as a player, i really miss why should i care for someone else exploiting. If he progressed through the game faster than me, their loss, cause for me a game has to be fun at all times, so he will eventually have fun for less time than me. If he progressed through an encounter easier than me, again their loss, cause a game has to be challenging as well in order to be fun, at least for me.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Take a step back for a second and take long hard look at what you are saying. You just told him that using a river as a strategic advantage was "bad".
Now I can see how you can say this in the context of a computer game. But let's take a step back and realize that this tactic is INCREDIBLY important in the history of warfare.
There is a reason that rivers form so many boudnaries for countries. The use of a river exactly how this was done is exactly why.
Now consider the sad state of some MMO worlds. How they are on rails or lack much depth and take a second look at your reaction to this "exploit".
Shouldn't people be shcoked that an MMO world that is meant to immersive is so cheap and shallow? That it can't even capture basic tactics of warfare? Rather than saying that a player is expoiting because everything is designed to be cartoonish crap?
Now that is a bit of hyperbole but you get the point.