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To all the SWG Fans that claim SWTOR isnt Star Wars
akiira69
Member UncommonPosts: 615
Umm the reason why SWTOR doesnt feel like what you think makes SWG seem like a true Star Wars game is because its based 4000 years before the rise of Darth Vader. The story takes place after the first Sith War(Knights of the Old Republic). Everything BioWare is doing is from scratch George Lucas started the story at Episode IV so there is no true storyline for BioWare to follow at the point in Star Wars Lore for SWTOR to follow. Please cut them some slack dont hate a game that is still in Stage 1 Beta Testing, Wait till you either get in to Closed Beta or Open Beta(which ever happens first) Play it longer than 30 minutes and then come back and say you hate it. Untill you have tried something all your claims of hatred is just an assumption.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
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I'm not a SWG fan, I did play a bit, but not a fan. That said, you are wrong as to why SWG players want SWTOR to change it's direction. It is the sandbox vs themepark argument. It is open world and freedom to play as you want vs limited choice with classes and levels and restrictions in progression.
I enjoy BW's SPG RPG's so I will enjoy this game because I know what to expect. It will be a themepark MMO world like WoW with SPG level choice based story for the RPG. But it will have no true freedom that sandbox and SWG fans want. So they will complain as they complained about the NGE. Nothing anyone can do about it, just sit back, eat the popcorn and enjoy the game of forum play.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
There are plenty of sourses of cannon for Bioware to use. Problem is Lucas. That guy needs to die to save Star Wars for us fans.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
The reviewer has a mishapen head
Which means his opinion is skewed
...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley
BioWare chose the Old Republic Story line so they didnt end up with a failed project like SWG. I played SWG Pre-CU and Pre-NGE. The storyline up to CU was ok very few Jedi it went along with the Cannon set by Star Wars Episode IV that Jedi were hunted to the Point of Extinction. Then the CU came out and even More Jedi appeared then the NGE came out and ruined the SWG game. In my opinion if you want to find where the blame truly lies in the Star Wars Video Game Franchise look no farther than SOE. I went to a SWG FanFest whewn it was in San DIego, CA SOE claimed all the changes in the NGE were allowed by LucasArts which of course was a lie. To top it off none of the features for the NGE was properly tested. Ive played SOE's attempt at another SWG game and its even worse(if that is even possible). Im not going to say that SWTOR is going to save the Star Wars Video Game Franchise cause thats just baseless speculation I will hold off siding with the Haters or the lovers till I have played SWTOR.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
How was the story line of SWG the reason for it being a failed project? It was everything but the story line that turned it into a failed project.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
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I didnt say it was the storyline that made it a failed project I said BioWare chose the Old Republic Storyline so the game wouldnt end up like a failed project like SWG. Then i went on to explain why SWG was a failed project and that was because of the CU and the NGE.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
SWTOR is star wars. it's just a tiny little piece of star wars, whereas fans of SWG were probably hoping to play in the star wars universe in general, not just one of a couple of very specific and limited storylines taking place in it.
There is nothing wrong with the Old Republic storyline. What's disappointing for SWG fans is BioWare's approach to it. Really boils down to immersion in a world vs. immersion in a story. SWG was about the former - it created a star wars world where people could live. TOR is about the former, they create a short story in which you can be one of the specific character.
Both types of approach can yield excellent experiences, they are just very different experiences. And someone that expects one of these experiences but gets the other is sure to be disappointed. If i am expecting to play out a specific story with a beginning, middle and end and i'm dropped in the middle of nowhere with no purpose, i'll be disappointed. If I am expecting to live in the star wars galaxy and make a life for myself, but i'm immediately told that i am locked to a certain storyline with only a few real choices, I'll also be disappointed.
It's not right and wrong, good or bad. It's a matter of expectations and different experiences. I'm buying TOR to replace Mass Effect, not to replace my current MMO. People buying it for other reasons may be in for disappointment.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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Currently Playing: ESO
SWG was a failed project. Even at its height the game had around 300k subscribers. You can blame a lot of different things about the project. SWG fans need to accept that SWG was simply not successful. Lucas wanted more.
Because SWG was not successful, Bioware which is well known for their great story line games was asked by Lucas to make a totally different MMO. Bioware was asked to do this because of the great games that they have made (Mass Effect, Buldur's gate, Kotor, etc.). Bioware games focus on Bioware's story telling. Bioware games have sold millions including Knights of the Old Republic. Even if every single SWG player boycotts SWToR, the number of Bioware fans is at least ten times their number. The success of SWToR depends on Bioware fans not SWG fans.
The sense of entitlement of SWG fans is silly. If you want SWG2 go talk to Sony. Bioware will make a Bioware style game.
1. 300k subscribers at that time, was a good chunk of the total MMO population. WoW, let alone it's "11 million" subscribers weren't around at the time, and 300k back then was a respectable number in the industry.
2. SWTOR is on track to be WoW in space, explicitly because of Bioware's design philosophy and overly loyal fanbase.
3. There is no sense of entitlement from SWG players, only opinion.
4. The people really upset about the lore and gameplay limitations are coming from a Star Wars fan perspective, not a SWG player perspective.
1. Your opinion. They were more successful MMOs back even way back then (2003?). Even then the only opinion that really matters is Lucas. He had a game that sold millions (Kotor) come out less than a year later and make tons more money.
2. Your opinion based on self interest. Bioware fans actually tend to be fairly whiny (see Witch hunt reception). On the other hand, when something good comes out ( Lair of the Shadow Broker) of course they are pleased.
3. Another self interested opinion, you can easily see four threads from the same guy in here and general whining about SWToR not being a sandbox where he can play a purple mutant while dinking off in space for hours. Lucas owes you absolutely nothing. If you enjoyed his products fine, otherwise do not buy them. You have a choice over your pocketbook the same way Lucas has a choice over his. The game is Lucas' decision not yours.
4. Okay, remember that Lucas owes you absolutely nothing. Lucas wants his games to be introduced to a new generation. Younger players have much better reactions and speeds so gameplay changes must be made. You are not the target audience for Lucas any more.
I really don't understand why people claim SWG was a failure. 300k subscribers put it as one of the top MMOs in the pre-WoW era. The only games to get WoW-like numbers are asian MMOs like Lineage (post-WoW there are a few huge ones). WAR, AoC, Vanguard, and TR didn't have as many subs 2 months in (although some of them had huge first month spikes). When they made the game stupid (moved towards a WoW/SWTOR direction) with jedi, CU, NGE, etc. is when loyal fans began to leave. If they didn't mess up the game, it would most likely be #2 in north america today.
Anyways, like someone else said: people don't want TOR to be SWG2.0 - but they do want an immersive Star Wars MMO instead of beating it after a month and quiting.
Almost every complaint over breaks in lore have been shot down, even the term wizard has been used in Star Wars lore in the past, as far as gaming goes anyway. For those wondering where, just look up the reference in the star wars PNP. From a lore perspective so far it seems to be star wars to me. At least as much as KOTRO was.
In other words most of these complaints seem to stem from people who have only watched 4-6 and played KOTOR.
The other argument I'm seeing people using to say it's "raping star wars", has been in regard to openness, as well as roles that will be playable. Somehow certain species have become unstarwarzy. How, and when I really don't know. My best guess would be again, these people must only like 4-6, and must choose to ignore the EU novels, and comics.
It also seems as far as roles and interactivity go, they feel Star Wars has to be offered in an open way, to play as they see fit. They hate the idea of a guided tour. Which I can understand to an extent, considering this is an MMO. The problem is they've said they've taken this into consideration, and have allowed you to opt out of story content. Meaning you can basically play as you see fit. Within the guidelines of the game of course.
While all of this to me doesn't make it unstarwarzy, it is all based on personal opinion on why people feel it isn't star wars. I can't tell someone what star wars is, just as they can't tell me what star wars is. It's a matter of perspective, and personal preference as well as what aspects of star wars touched base with them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Depends on how you define failure. I wanted it to feel like Star Wars and in my opinion it did not: hence, fail.
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It doesn't matter what the numbers say, what matters is what the developers and publishers have shown. They felt the game was a failure, they cited mass loss in players as a reasoning to completely overhaul the game not once, but two times. Meaning they viewed the game as a failure. That means it failed to meet it's intended goals.
Also it was only live for a little over half a year before WOW hit beta, it hardly was pre-WOW. Had they released after WOW or with, in other words released a finished and polished game, things may have been different.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
SWG did not fail. The change of design direction disappointed a lot of people. It has solid sub numbers as far as I know. It aint on the shelf like Matrix Online
Can't say i'm interested in TOR, but who cares what SWG fans think? There's only about four of them.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Good point. They were definitely losing players (although they did have a steady 250-300k before WoW) but SoE diagnosed the problem incorrectly. Hell, just look at SoE's track record after EQ - I wouldn't say they know what they are doing in terms of traditional MMOs (pretty much gave up their throne to make casual MMOs). I would say SWG met its intended goals fairly well - as that was when it had the most players. Also, they changed their minds about what they wanted the game to be well after it was released.
I disagree that success should be judged solely by what a publisher does. EQ today isn't nearly as popular as it once was - does that mean it wasn't a success? The same goes for DAoC, UO, etc. Also, pre-WoW didn't really last that long... Only about 7 years (97-04). I would say a year and a half is a pretty large amount of time considering how long MMOs have been around.
Ya, and there are about 2 EQ fans, 1 DAoC fan, 1 AC fan, 3 UO fans, 1 AoC fan, etc. Therefore, game companies should NOT consider anything but WoW even though most of the MMO companies wouldn't be around today without the very few players that played the old games, right?
1. So, it's opinion that 300,000 subscribers in the NA / EU market is a respectable subscriber base when the two highest subscription 'competing' MMOs in the NA and EU market at the time (EQ, FF11) were both around 500k? Give me a break. If 300k at that time wasn't respectable, than an MMO today with 5 million subscribers world wide isn't either compared to WoW's 11 million. Seriously, pull your head out from between your legs.
2. How does my self-interest factor into my seeing the game as it is being shown by the developers and coming to the conclusion that SWTOR looks like WoW with a star wars theme? That's just what it looks like to me. If the game turns into yet another WoW clone, I don't care, I'll ignore the game. If not, I might give it a try. Either way I'm not losing any sleep over my opinion on what I see.
3. Who said Lucas owed anyone anything? Said poster is just frustrated because they're not able to immerse themselves into the Star Wars universe to the level they'd like, because of Bioware's design decisions. Said poster has every right to voice his disapproval, and it has nothing to do with entitlement. Personal preference is not a sense of entitlement.
4. And? Like I said, I'm not losing any sleep over it. I'd like to know why the rabid fans such as yourself take so much offense to even the slightest criticism or people saying the game is not their cup of tea. Seriously, relax, you'll live longer.
Take a look at my sig, I played/prefer older mmos, or what are considered niche mmos. But I know full well (as any sane minded person does) that BW are aiming their product at the WOW crowd, they are looking for millions of subs not tens or hundreds of thousands.
Like it or not SWG has next to feck all players in the grand scheme of things, so no, I doub't very much that the BW devs really give two tits about whether or not a handful of SWG players moan about TOR not being SWG2.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The time at which it takes place has got nothing to do with why this particular SW fan and MMO gamer isn't interested. It's the scope of gameplay that they are focusing on versus what I believe should be offered in a SW setting. I don't need to wait til beta to "check it out" to know if I'm interested. I can read. What they state they want to do with the game does not sound appealing to me.
Fortunately I also have priviledged informational access from which a very educated opinion has been made.
No, I don't "hate" it (which is a stupid phrase to use in relations to gaming anyway). It just falls short on recreating the vision I have for a SW MMO. Heck, SWG fell short in a few ways too but it was much closer than TOR attempts to be.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I did, that is why I mentioned UO :P
In the grand scheme of things, SWG had one of the highest player bases (especially pre-2004). I'm not saying that they MUST SHUT EVERYTHING DOWN and get some SWG vets to approve of their game - but I would like to see companies make games with the people who made this genre rich in the first place in mind (although I guess BioWare doesn't count seeing as this is their first MMO - so go ahead and disregard everything I said if you wish :P). Also, heed the lessons of WAR, Vanguard, AoC, and TR.
Dear OP: you'll be alot happier in life if you quit worrying about what other people think of things you like(assuming their not self destructive). If you like TOR, thats all that matters. You dont have to convince anyone of anything.
1. We can go back and forth on opinion here. In the end, the only opinions that mattered were the ones who said the game was not doing well and needed a change thus the NGE. I have read that SWG was down around 200k when the NGE launched. Afterwards, the population dropped like a rock. The majority of time your opinion does not matter in corporate decisions which are about maximizing profit. The Return On Investment (ROI) was not high enough to satisfy the owners (Lucas / Sony) period. Thus the NGE change, corporations do not make these changes without a reason. Name calling is the mark of childish arguments btw.
2. You do not want to like the game. Thus, you will always look for fault. Your opinions are colored by your predisposed dislike of the game. You hear possible WoW clone and go into a very negative mind set. I do not understand why people frequent forums of games that they have little to no interest in?
Now, on the other I prefer twitch based gameplay. I also like Bioware's previous games (especially Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and Knights of the Old Republic) so I am predisposed to like the game. Thus, I track the game on slow days. The same way that I track musical artists and events that I like.
3. Personal preference turns into a sense of entitlement quite often. This is clearly seen in male stalkers. The person descends into obsession then into entitlement. I give you a quote from a negative poster on these forums "how in the 23 names of the devil can you get a huge, fantastic IP like STAR WARS and then produce such a frigging stream of crap! I am out of my mind in anger!". This person has passed from obsession into the entitlement stage. He feels entitled to a "better" game from Bioware.
4. Lol, actually I enjoy gaming as a hobby. I also enjoy art, music, sailing, and intellectual arguments. There are things that I do not like about SWToR (graphics mostly). I plan to try the game, but if I do not like the game life goes on. On the other hand, if I like the game then I might buy the game for my nephews. Heck, I may even buy them new computers. The discussion was interesting. However it is time for me to catch a plane. Have a good weekend.
The complaints I remember hearing about SWG back before launch was, the spec issues, and the fact that you had to pay to play it. After SWG launched the biggest complaints I heard was , it's hard, it dosen't feel like Star Wars. After that people started leaving. It may seem odd that people want less complicated, and less realistic graphics, or cheesy dialog in a game vs convuluted, oddly enough they are the gaming majority.
I recall friends saying they felt you had to run two character, one dedicated to crafting and the other one you really wanted to play to play the game well. Also, they simply were not having fun. They were EQ1 players.