I found this entire thread rather fascinating as tapeworm00 made mention of. It is a great thread.
I didn't really have any serious comment to make on most of what has been said. Although I do agree with many who feel its a money influenced thing for GW to produce yet another attempt to grasp their large level of lore in a small incomplete package. I really only wanted to throw out a small idea concerning the two faction system. No complaint or endorsement on either side just this idea.
I am not super familiar with 40K lore. I have a friend who could go on and on about it, but for a two faction system wouldn't an event in the 40K history have been smarter as a launch base for their game. Like the Horus Heresy for example. I understand there may have been many other races or factions involved in this great drama within the space marines' history. I just think it might have allowed for new people to the game to get an idea of what actually goes on within the lore. While appealing to the large fan base as at least from what I have seen is that is a slight majority of marine players.
You could have provided indepth lore along with intrigue and small skirmish fighting among the two warring factions. Without insulting fans of other groups. While they would be disappointed with having the lack of their favored races still they could have gotten an inside look at a vivid depiction of the game world. Also who's to say that later they couldn't have had other games adding to the story options. Then finally making a full scale war game with large scale battles between multiple factions and for that leave the lore out. Allowing for a free for all of capture points and faction based command point control gaming.
It wouldn't have to be the Horus Heresy lore. It could be any other of a number of different smaller concepts among GW's vast amount of stories. I just feel too many MMOs are trying to capture huge levels of area with pretty visuals while neglecting many small details. Which alienates their starting player base who come to the game based on the lore, and leaves new players wondering where exactly they are supposed to feel involved in the world. I have no real experience in budgets for game development but I think this would cut their costs and allow for more time to create a more complete experience.
I understand the casual gamer will not really care too much either way really, but for those who do I just feel choosing a smaller story with more focus on detail would be smarter for a two faction system.
On a side note: I enjoyed WAR for what it was. Yes there were glitches and many things could I'm sure have been done entirely different or for the better. I just thought it was fun for a moment to wade into a battle as something that most of the time we only get to read about.
Hey wow, this is a great idea. You should be designing this game, not Vigil. The Horus Heresy seems like a fascinating chapter in the Imperium's history, and it would make sense as a two faction game: Imperium vs. Chaos, with Space Marines vs. Chaos Marines. As you said, they could add more factions later.
I found this entire thread rather fascinating as tapeworm00 made mention of. It is a great thread.
I didn't really have any serious comment to make on most of what has been said. Although I do agree with many who feel its a money influenced thing for GW to produce yet another attempt to grasp their large level of lore in a small incomplete package. I really only wanted to throw out a small idea concerning the two faction system. No complaint or endorsement on either side just this idea.
I am not super familiar with 40K lore. I have a friend who could go on and on about it, but for a two faction system wouldn't an event in the 40K history have been smarter as a launch base for their game. Like the Horus Heresy for example. I understand there may have been many other races or factions involved in this great drama within the space marines' history. I just think it might have allowed for new people to the game to get an idea of what actually goes on within the lore. While appealing to the large fan base as at least from what I have seen is that is a slight majority of marine players.
You could have provided indepth lore along with intrigue and small skirmish fighting among the two warring factions. Without insulting fans of other groups. While they would be disappointed with having the lack of their favored races still they could have gotten an inside look at a vivid depiction of the game world. Also who's to say that later they couldn't have had other games adding to the story options. Then finally making a full scale war game with large scale battles between multiple factions and for that leave the lore out. Allowing for a free for all of capture points and faction based command point control gaming.
It wouldn't have to be the Horus Heresy lore. It could be any other of a number of different smaller concepts among GW's vast amount of stories. I just feel too many MMOs are trying to capture huge levels of area with pretty visuals while neglecting many small details. Which alienates their starting player base who come to the game based on the lore, and leaves new players wondering where exactly they are supposed to feel involved in the world. I have no real experience in budgets for game development but I think this would cut their costs and allow for more time to create a more complete experience.
I understand the casual gamer will not really care too much either way really, but for those who do I just feel choosing a smaller story with more focus on detail would be smarter for a two faction system.
On a side note: I enjoyed WAR for what it was. Yes there were glitches and many things could I'm sure have been done entirely different or for the better. I just thought it was fun for a moment to wade into a battle as something that most of the time we only get to read about.
Hey wow, this is a great idea. You should be designing this game, not Vigil. The Horus Heresy seems like a fascinating chapter in the Imperium's history, and it would make sense as a two faction game: Imperium vs. Chaos, with Space Marines vs. Chaos Marines. As you said, they could add more factions later.
I call trying to design a game in the horus heresey a can of nerd rage nightmare... Im eternally thankful they aren't doing so... WAY to many lore constarints.... the internet froth would be 10 fold what it is right now.
sorry for the red... this isnt the most user friendly forum as far as editing.
They could have some interesting unique race abilities. >
Since orks usually outnumber whoever they are attacking like 3:1 or 10:1, perhaps each Choppa or regular ork player automatically has 1-2 AI orks that follow him around. Not as a controllable pet but whenever he starts attacking something they charge in with him.. > So if you have say 10 ork choppa players running in to a battle, there will be 10-20 AI Orks.. >
So if your Guard and you see ork players running to you, there might only be 20 players but in total you'll see maybe 40 orks charging your position. > This could easily the achieve the feeling of being "overhwelmed" by an ork horde which is what they do best at. If the game launches and you at times equal Orks in numbers on the battlefield it's going be stupid. >
As for the space marines, there needs to be some sort of limitation on how many actual space marines could be online at one time or created. As you know, space marines are ultra-elite warriors and the devs have already said Space Marines would be like an unlockable class but you wouldn't get to pick "space marine" from the character creation screen. THis is good news which means you won't see every single person being a space marine. Also from a business perspective this is good because the hardcore space marine fans (largest % of 40k fans are Space Mariners) will play the game for longer (more subs) to unlock and be space marines in game. I don't really care about paying a little longer to unlock space marines because if the games good, i'll think the company deserves my money anyways. >
Same mechanic as I've described for orks will almost be a must for Imperial Guard as well. Imp Guard and Orks = Numbers numbers numbers. They don't call it an Imperial Firing Line for nothing. They also don't have the "For every one of us who falls 10 more shall take his place" saying for nothing. >
I guess their could be PvE in DMO but it just doesn't make sense. I don't care how much you spend time on it (Let's face it, AI isn't really on the top of the list in MMO development) you can never really make a game AI that's challenging to the player. Most people want to fight and compete with other people because that's the only real challenge in the world left. > Man has competed with nature since the dawn of time & so far we've won. We've climbed the highest mountains, explored the deepest depths. We've killed the biggest animals. > The only real challenge left is Hunting your fellow man. Real skill, cunning, and thought still goes into hunting other humans. This same principle can be applied to online games. It would be infinitely more rewarding to be in the midst of a 100 vs 100 player battle on some 40k planet and through skill, teamwork, vehicle support, coordination etc win over your enemies (controlled by humans) than to down some dumb little scripted AI boss which doesn't take skill, just timing.
Everyone says that 2 factions has been done to death. I think they say this becuase WoW had 2 factions and WoW has been done to death. I just dont think ANY game has done PvP right and designed thier game from the beginning to have balanced pvp and fun. WAR tried but ended up with tunnel vision and ruined thier game becuase of it. (see above posts) WoW never even had pvp until blizz plopped it on top at the very end of development. DAoC never worked the way people said it should work and so on and so on. This specific balance and design is so hard to achieve becuase of the sheer amount of players and potential for imbalances.
So does Pong and Quake. Almost every multiplayer game that has "PvP" in it has only 2 sides. Theres's nothing wrong with a 2 faction system. Many of us grew up with console video games that only had 2 controllers. It's just that there have been very few attempts at more than 2. Starcraft would be another successful game that has more than 2.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
So does Pong and Quake. Almost every multiplayer game that has "PvP" in it has only 2 sides. Theres's nothing wrong with a 2 faction system. Many of us grew up with console video games that only had 2 controllers. It's just that there have been very few attempts at more than 2. Starcraft would be another successful game that has more than 2.
I never played it but DaoC managed with more than 2? Planetside pulled off 3 factions brilliantly.
this IP cries out for something not often done such as 3+ factions
Surprisingly all the warhammer 40k fans in these forums use the lore excuse for the need of more than 2 factions but who cares if an ork has a fair fight against a space marine in a 1 v 1,that doesn't break the lore at all.
Gameplay>Lore,even the tabletop version of the game takes this attitude and most of people here just want a game like daoc.
Everyone says that 2 factions has been done to death. I think they say this becuase WoW had 2 factions and WoW has been done to death. I just dont think ANY game has done PvP right and designed thier game from the beginning to have balanced pvp and fun. WAR tried but ended up with tunnel vision and ruined thier game becuase of it. (see above posts) WoW never even had pvp until blizz plopped it on top at the very end of development. DAoC never worked the way people said it should work and so on and so on. This specific balance and design is so hard to achieve becuase of the sheer amount of players and potential for imbalances.
So does Pong and Quake. Almost every multiplayer game that has "PvP" in it has only 2 sides. Theres's nothing wrong with a 2 faction system. Many of us grew up with console video games that only had 2 controllers. It's just that there have been very few attempts at more than 2. Starcraft would be another successful game that has more than 2.
Pong and Quake are not MMOs - they are multiplayer. But essentially they are 'instanced' games.
Starcraft is also a multiplayer game - not an MMO. Play can be balanced by AI (which is a possibility for DMO)
If you want to 'balance' DMO the same way you would have instanced battlefields with a queue.
WAR did not design their PvP / RvR right BTW - they never had any plan to balance it exept that they hoped it would "work itself out".
Since orks usually outnumber whoever they are attacking like 3:1 or 10:1, perhaps each Choppa or regular ork player automatically has 1-2 AI orks that follow him around. Not as a controllable pet but whenever he starts attacking something they charge in with him.. > So if you have say 10 ork choppa players running in to a battle, there will be 10-20 AI Orks.. >
I think you are on the right track here with the AI mobs being used as a 'bulker' as required. I wouldn't do it quite that way myself - but I do think it's a far better idea than where Vigil seem to be aiming with each class balancing out every other class. Rock-Paper-Scissors design we have seen 1000 times before.
...As for the space marines, there needs to be some sort of limitation on how many actual space marines could be online at one time or created. As you know, space marines are ultra-elite warriors and the devs have already said Space Marines would be like an unlockable class but you wouldn't get to pick "space marine" from the character creation screen. THis is good news which means you won't see every single person being a space marine. Also from a business perspective this is good because the hardcore space marine fans (largest % of 40k fans are Space Mariners) will play the game for longer (more subs) to unlock and be space marines in game. I don't really care about paying a little longer to unlock space marines because if the games good, i'll think the company deserves my money anyways. >
Yeah, that whole idea is full of fail. Sorry to be so glib but really there is no better way to say it.
The fact is that people will want to play Space Marine from day one. Anything less and the Devs will be accused of a 'bait and switch' by people buying the game. So they can either design it right now - OR they can patch it in 2 weeks after release (throwing out 2 + years of development work) when the accounts people show them the poor sales figures and product returns.
And they simply cannot stop everyone playing on one side at once. As unlikely as it may be - if it's possible then they have to allow for it. And no, they cannot simply 'lock out' any race or class to paying customers. If they did they would actually be in breach of the law in some places. You advertize a product saying "you can play this" and you have to be able to do it. Not to mention that the [Cancel Subscription] button is never far away.
But all is not lost - as you say - AI could help them here. WH40K has not just one - but two races which would make perfect (and very different) AI mobs - Necron and Trynid.
So, if everyone does log on as Space Marine you could hit them with a massive Trynid invasion to keep them busy (and stop them ganking the lone Dark Eldar player who logged on to do some crafting. LOL) As people log off - the system just reduces the amount of mobs generated.
The WH40K IP is ideal for this. It's one of the few IPs that is.
2 factions have been done to death. I would love to see a company at least try having 4-6 factions.
That would be nice especially for this game. But no company has the chutzpah to do that these days.
Woud somone please name me a SUCCESFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
why would someone create a balancing nightmare? how does that make sense?
Would someone please name me an UNSUCCESSFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
Why would someone create a giant snoozefest? How does that make sense?
Games can have more than 3 factions and be balanced. Two good games with multiple balanced factions would be Civilizations and Age of Wonders. They may not be MMOs, but it can be done. Saying it's impossible only makes me want to see it more.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
2 factions have been done to death. I would love to see a company at least try having 4-6 factions.
That would be nice especially for this game. But no company has the chutzpah to do that these days.
Woud somone please name me a SUCCESFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
why would someone create a balancing nightmare? how does that make sense?
Would someone please name me an UNSUCCESSFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
Why would someone create a giant snoozefest? How does that make sense?
Games can have more than 3 factions and be balanced. Two good games with multiple balanced factions would be Civilizations and Age of Wonders. They may not be MMOs, but it can be done. Saying it's impossible only makes me want to see it more.
clever (not really) but you didnt answer the question, you skirted it.
Im not saying its impossible, Im just saying wait and see what they do before assuming its a "snoozefest."
Would someone please name me an UNSUCCESSFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
Why would someone create a giant snoozefest? How does that make sense?
Games can have more than 3 factions and be balanced. Two good games with multiple balanced factions would be Civilizations and Age of Wonders. They may not be MMOs, but it can be done. Saying it's impossible only makes me want to see it more.
clever (not really) but you didnt answer the question, you skirted it.
I believe I did answer your question: There isn't any. Now, if you don't mind, please answer mine?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Would someone please name me an UNSUCCESSFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
Why would someone create a giant snoozefest? How does that make sense?
Games can have more than 3 factions and be balanced. Two good games with multiple balanced factions would be Civilizations and Age of Wonders. They may not be MMOs, but it can be done. Saying it's impossible only makes me want to see it more.
clever (not really) but you didnt answer the question, you skirted it.
I believe I did answer your question: There isn't any. Now, if you don't mind, please answer mine?
That last part came in on an edit so i figured Id add it.
I answered your question about 2 factions being a snoozefest. I cant say wether that will be true or not until I see how thier 2 faction system works, and I dont think anyone else can either.
WAR did not design their PvP / RvR right BTW - they never had any plan to balance it exept that they hoped it would "work itself out".
WAR actually did have plans to add in NPC's to help balance out the sides. They were called Dogs of War, but they never were tested in Beta and I assume they got too far ahead of themselves with adding Keeps 4 months before launch.
clever (not really) but you didnt answer the question, you skirted it.
I believe I did answer your question: There isn't any. Now, if you don't mind, please answer mine?
That last part came in on an edit so i figured Id add it.
I answered your question about 2 factions being a snoozefest. I cant say wether that will be rue or not until I see how thier 2 faction system works, and I dont think anyone else can either.
My point was that there are no unsuccessful MMOs with more than 3 factions either, because nobody has ever even tried it, as far as I know. I'm not saying the game will be a snoozefest, just that I'm tired of 2 faction PvP games. There are MMOs with more than 3 factions (Darkfall and Fallen earth) but those games have FFA PvP, not faction-based. What I would really love to see is Darkfall or Fallen Earth type game where the PvP is not FFA.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Would someone please name me an UNSUCCESSFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
Why would someone create a giant snoozefest? How does that make sense?
Games can have more than 3 factions and be balanced. Two good games with multiple balanced factions would be Civilizations and Age of Wonders. They may not be MMOs, but it can be done. Saying it's impossible only makes me want to see it more.
clever (not really) but you didnt answer the question, you skirted it.
I believe I did answer your question: There isn't any. Now, if you don't mind, please answer mine?
That last part came in on an edit so i figured Id add it.
I answered your question about 2 factions being a snoozefest. I cant say wether that will be rue or not until I see how thier 2 faction system works, and I dont think anyone else can either.
My point was that there are no unsuccessful MMOs with more than 3 factions either, because nobody has ever even tried it, as far as I know. There are MMOs with more than 3 factions (Darkfall and Fallen earth) but those games have FFA PvP, not faction-based. What I would really love to see is Darkfall or Fallen Earth type games where the PvP is not FFA.
actually there have been several canned games that were multi faction... Dragon Empires being the one I was following mostly.
It had 5 factions. There are many aborted attempts at a multi faction MO, though to be fair, who knows why they were aborted. Suffice to say that quality may have been an issue.
My point was that there are no unsuccessful MMOs with more than 3 factions either, because nobody has ever even tried it, as far as I know. There are MMOs with more than 3 factions (Darkfall and Fallen earth) but those games have FFA PvP, not faction-based. What I would really love to see is Darkfall or Fallen Earth type games where the PvP is not FFA.
actually there have been several canned games that were multi faction... Dragon Empires being the one I was following mostly.
It had 5 factions. There are many aborted attempts at a multi faction MO, though to be fair, who knows why they were aborted. Suffice to say that quality may have been an issue.
Yes, and Horizons was supposed to have like 8 factions, but they cut over half the races/factions before launch.
Yes, I have been waiting that long. hehe.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Woud somone please name me a SUCCESFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
why would someone create a balancing nightmare? how does that make sense?
In "Triple A" titles The Chronicles of Spellborn had 5 houses;
Torque, Silver, Rune, Maul and Shroud... you could also fight between Guilds too IIRC?.
The game failed but not because of that
"The title was shutdown on the 25th August 2010 by the new owners Disney/Playdom.
Some people heard that Acclaim paid Playdom to take the title and close it down as part of the purchase of Acclaim by Playdom.
The game has sadly ended its abused life by Acclaim's poor management. In the last 6 months the client download of http://spellborn.acclaim.com/ has been broken, basically stopping the population from growing, the client had Gameguard issues with newer OS like Windows7 and more recently of the past 6 weeks constantly issues with password and username needed daily password resets. A few weeks before the title was officially announced to the community that the servers spent days offline and even thou a Playdom Official on the spellborn forums announced the title would be playable until it was closed down, it was only playable for a couple of days over its final few weeks. All of these issues pointed to exceptional inept management from Acclaim, arrogance from Playdom and caused much rage and sadness within the playing community."
I play Pardus, which has Federation, Union, Empire and Neutral factions (if you include neutral as a faction?) That game survives and is 'balanced' due to the way it is designed. For example: travel distances and times (based on Action Points) are large enough to stop continuous raids into faction territory most of the time. Although the mechanics of an Action Point based game are different to the AAA title we expect DMO to be - I think it shows that with the right mechanics it is possible to 'balance' a 3+ faction game?
Woud somone please name me a SUCCESFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
why would someone create a balancing nightmare? how does that make sense?
In "Triple A" titles The Chronicles of Spellborn had 5 houses;
Torque, Silver, Rune, Maul and Shroud... you could also fight between Guilds too IIRC?.
The game failed but not because of that
"The title was shutdown on the 25th August 2010 by the new owners Disney/Playdom.
Some people heard that Acclaim paid Playdom to take the title and close it down as part of the purchase of Acclaim by Playdom.
The game has sadly ended its abused life by Acclaim's poor management. In the last 6 months the client download of http://spellborn.acclaim.com/ has been broken, basically stopping the population from growing, the client had Gameguard issues with newer OS like Windows7 and more recently of the past 6 weeks constantly issues with password and username needed daily password resets. A few weeks before the title was officially announced to the community that the servers spent days offline and even thou a Playdom Official on the spellborn forums announced the title would be playable until it was closed down, it was only playable for a couple of days over its final few weeks. All of these issues pointed to exceptional inept management from Acclaim, arrogance from Playdom and caused much rage and sadness within the playing community."
I play Pardus, which has Federation, Union, Empire and Neutral factions (if you include neutral as a faction?) That game survives and is 'balanced' due to the way it is designed. For example: travel distances and times (based on Action Points) are large enough to stop continuous raids into faction territory most of the time. Although the mechanics of an Action Point based game are different to the AAA title we expect DMO to be - I think it shows that with the right mechanics it is possible to 'balance' a 3+ faction game?
I agree, but with the right mechanics its also possible to make a balanced, fun and interesting 2 faction system with factions that could occasionally war within themselves. Lets be honest here, no one has nailed MMO pvp.
Woud somone please name me a SUCCESFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
why would someone create a balancing nightmare? how does that make sense?
In "Triple A" titles The Chronicles of Spellborn had 5 houses;
Torque, Silver, Rune, Maul and Shroud... you could also fight between Guilds too IIRC?.
The game failed but not because of that
"The title was shutdown on the 25th August 2010 by the new owners Disney/Playdom.
Some people heard that Acclaim paid Playdom to take the title and close it down as part of the purchase of Acclaim by Playdom.
The game has sadly ended its abused life by Acclaim's poor management. In the last 6 months the client download of http://spellborn.acclaim.com/ has been broken, basically stopping the population from growing, the client had Gameguard issues with newer OS like Windows7 and more recently of the past 6 weeks constantly issues with password and username needed daily password resets. A few weeks before the title was officially announced to the community that the servers spent days offline and even thou a Playdom Official on the spellborn forums announced the title would be playable until it was closed down, it was only playable for a couple of days over its final few weeks. All of these issues pointed to exceptional inept management from Acclaim, arrogance from Playdom and caused much rage and sadness within the playing community."
I play Pardus, which has Federation, Union, Empire and Neutral factions (if you include neutral as a faction?) That game survives and is 'balanced' due to the way it is designed. For example: travel distances and times (based on Action Points) are large enough to stop continuous raids into faction territory most of the time. Although the mechanics of an Action Point based game are different to the AAA title we expect DMO to be - I think it shows that with the right mechanics it is possible to 'balance' a 3+ faction game?
I agree, but with the right mechanics its also possible to make a balanced, fun and interesting 2 faction system with factions that could occasionally war within themselves. Lets be hoest here, no one has nailed MMO pvp.
Agreed.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Oh - I forgot PotBS...British, French, Spanish and Pirate...which failed.
But again, failed because of poor design choices by the developer early on.
True, the factions were unbalanced too but that might not have been such a big problem if the basic design had been good.
While a game with good mechanics can be made to work with 2 factions... you come back to lore.
That is, if the lore 'supports' more than 2 factions and you can get your basics right for 2 factions - why wouldn't you allow more? I still maintain WH40K is perfect for this and balancing 'mechanics' could be introduced in such a way that they fit right into the game and players accept them.
For example: A 200 player Orc group attemps to attack Tau space. At the time the Tau only have 20 players on. The game automatically posts a warning that the Orcs may attack the Tau if they choose... but due to Warp Storms they can expect 90% casualties before they even arrive. WAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH?
I think DMO will find plenty of success as long as it doesn't try to stay completely within the boundaries of RVR. WAR did that and, combined with only 2 factions, made it boring after a while. It needs to have other content besides that - the old world was just to big and had so much more then a few areas to fight over. I love PVP just as much as anyone, but base a massively multiplayer game around these few areas, with only so large a lake to fight in, it became tedious. It didn't feel like a war was going on.
But DMO? It can have all that content. I love dungeons, raids, boss encounters, epic quest lines that take my character all over the place (with appropriate XP and Rewards). WAR, while fun at times, didn't give me the feeling that this is a world I am in. It just felt like Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 3, Stage 4, restart new character.
Needing is Wanting... Wanting is Coveting... Coveting is Sinning... I am SO going to Hell.
I think DMO will find plenty of success as long as it doesn't try to stay completely within the boundaries of RVR. WAR did that and, combined with only 2 factions, made it boring after a while. It needs to have other content besides that - the old world was just to big and had so much more then a few areas to fight over. I love PVP just as much as anyone, but base a massively multiplayer game around these few areas, with only so large a lake to fight in, it became tedious. It didn't feel like a war was going on.
But DMO? It can have all that content. I love dungeons, raids, boss encounters, epic quest lines that take my character all over the place (with appropriate XP and Rewards). WAR, while fun at times, didn't give me the feeling that this is a world I am in. It just felt like Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 3, Stage 4, restart new character.
I totally agree here WAR thought RvR was enough in itself to carry thier game. They neglected everything else in favor of it and the game became extremely 1 dimensional becuase of it.
I think DMO will find plenty of success as long as it doesn't try to stay completely within the boundaries of RVR. WAR did that and, combined with only 2 factions, made it boring after a while. It needs to have other content besides that - the old world was just to big and had so much more then a few areas to fight over. I love PVP just as much as anyone, but base a massively multiplayer game around these few areas, with only so large a lake to fight in, it became tedious. It didn't feel like a war was going on.
But DMO? It can have all that content. I love dungeons, raids, boss encounters, epic quest lines that take my character all over the place (with appropriate XP and Rewards). WAR, while fun at times, didn't give me the feeling that this is a world I am in. It just felt like Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 3, Stage 4, restart new character.
I totally agree here WAR thought RvR was enough in itself to carry thier game. They neglected everything else in favor of it and the game became extremely 1 dimensional becuase of it.
I think they should take a look at the dynamic content that GW2 is doing and maybe adapt accordingly. Quests, The EQ/WOW style are very tired IMO and really help to make the game feel static and lifeless.
Comments
Hey wow, this is a great idea. You should be designing this game, not Vigil. The Horus Heresy seems like a fascinating chapter in the Imperium's history, and it would make sense as a two faction game: Imperium vs. Chaos, with Space Marines vs. Chaos Marines. As you said, they could add more factions later.
2 factions = stinky gay. >
They could have some interesting unique race abilities. >
Since orks usually outnumber whoever they are attacking like 3:1 or 10:1, perhaps each Choppa or regular ork player automatically has 1-2 AI orks that follow him around. Not as a controllable pet but whenever he starts attacking something they charge in with him.. > So if you have say 10 ork choppa players running in to a battle, there will be 10-20 AI Orks.. >
So if your Guard and you see ork players running to you, there might only be 20 players but in total you'll see maybe 40 orks charging your position. > This could easily the achieve the feeling of being "overhwelmed" by an ork horde which is what they do best at. If the game launches and you at times equal Orks in numbers on the battlefield it's going be stupid. >
As for the space marines, there needs to be some sort of limitation on how many actual space marines could be online at one time or created. As you know, space marines are ultra-elite warriors and the devs have already said Space Marines would be like an unlockable class but you wouldn't get to pick "space marine" from the character creation screen. THis is good news which means you won't see every single person being a space marine. Also from a business perspective this is good because the hardcore space marine fans (largest % of 40k fans are Space Mariners) will play the game for longer (more subs) to unlock and be space marines in game. I don't really care about paying a little longer to unlock space marines because if the games good, i'll think the company deserves my money anyways. >
Same mechanic as I've described for orks will almost be a must for Imperial Guard as well. Imp Guard and Orks = Numbers numbers numbers. They don't call it an Imperial Firing Line for nothing. They also don't have the "For every one of us who falls 10 more shall take his place" saying for nothing. >
I guess their could be PvE in DMO but it just doesn't make sense. I don't care how much you spend time on it (Let's face it, AI isn't really on the top of the list in MMO development) you can never really make a game AI that's challenging to the player. Most people want to fight and compete with other people because that's the only real challenge in the world left. > Man has competed with nature since the dawn of time & so far we've won. We've climbed the highest mountains, explored the deepest depths. We've killed the biggest animals. > The only real challenge left is Hunting your fellow man. Real skill, cunning, and thought still goes into hunting other humans. This same principle can be applied to online games. It would be infinitely more rewarding to be in the midst of a 100 vs 100 player battle on some 40k planet and through skill, teamwork, vehicle support, coordination etc win over your enemies (controlled by humans) than to down some dumb little scripted AI boss which doesn't take skill, just timing.
So does Pong and Quake. Almost every multiplayer game that has "PvP" in it has only 2 sides. Theres's nothing wrong with a 2 faction system. Many of us grew up with console video games that only had 2 controllers. It's just that there have been very few attempts at more than 2. Starcraft would be another successful game that has more than 2.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I never played it but DaoC managed with more than 2? Planetside pulled off 3 factions brilliantly.
this IP cries out for something not often done such as 3+ factions
Surprisingly all the warhammer 40k fans in these forums use the lore excuse for the need of more than 2 factions but who cares if an ork has a fair fight against a space marine in a 1 v 1,that doesn't break the lore at all.
Gameplay>Lore,even the tabletop version of the game takes this attitude and most of people here just want a game like daoc.
Pong and Quake are not MMOs - they are multiplayer. But essentially they are 'instanced' games.
Starcraft is also a multiplayer game - not an MMO. Play can be balanced by AI (which is a possibility for DMO)
If you want to 'balance' DMO the same way you would have instanced battlefields with a queue.
WAR did not design their PvP / RvR right BTW - they never had any plan to balance it exept that they hoped it would "work itself out".
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
That would be nice especially for this game. But no company has the chutzpah to do that these days.
Woud somone please name me a SUCCESFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
why would someone create a balancing nightmare? how does that make sense?
Would someone please name me an UNSUCCESSFUL MMO that had more than 3 factions?
Why would someone create a giant snoozefest? How does that make sense?
Games can have more than 3 factions and be balanced. Two good games with multiple balanced factions would be Civilizations and Age of Wonders. They may not be MMOs, but it can be done. Saying it's impossible only makes me want to see it more.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
clever (not really) but you didnt answer the question, you skirted it.
Im not saying its impossible, Im just saying wait and see what they do before assuming its a "snoozefest."
I believe I did answer your question: There isn't any. Now, if you don't mind, please answer mine?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
That last part came in on an edit so i figured Id add it.
I answered your question about 2 factions being a snoozefest. I cant say wether that will be true or not until I see how thier 2 faction system works, and I dont think anyone else can either.
WAR actually did have plans to add in NPC's to help balance out the sides. They were called Dogs of War, but they never were tested in Beta and I assume they got too far ahead of themselves with adding Keeps 4 months before launch.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
My point was that there are no unsuccessful MMOs with more than 3 factions either, because nobody has ever even tried it, as far as I know. I'm not saying the game will be a snoozefest, just that I'm tired of 2 faction PvP games. There are MMOs with more than 3 factions (Darkfall and Fallen earth) but those games have FFA PvP, not faction-based. What I would really love to see is Darkfall or Fallen Earth type game where the PvP is not FFA.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
actually there have been several canned games that were multi faction... Dragon Empires being the one I was following mostly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Empires
It had 5 factions. There are many aborted attempts at a multi faction MO, though to be fair, who knows why they were aborted. Suffice to say that quality may have been an issue.
Yes, and Horizons was supposed to have like 8 factions, but they cut over half the races/factions before launch.
Yes, I have been waiting that long. hehe.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
In "Triple A" titles The Chronicles of Spellborn had 5 houses;
Torque, Silver, Rune, Maul and Shroud... you could also fight between Guilds too IIRC?.
The game failed but not because of that
"The title was shutdown on the 25th August 2010 by the new owners Disney/Playdom.
Some people heard that Acclaim paid Playdom to take the title and close it down as part of the purchase of Acclaim by Playdom.
The game has sadly ended its abused life by Acclaim's poor management. In the last 6 months the client download of http://spellborn.acclaim.com/ has been broken, basically stopping the population from growing, the client had Gameguard issues with newer OS like Windows7 and more recently of the past 6 weeks constantly issues with password and username needed daily password resets. A few weeks before the title was officially announced to the community that the servers spent days offline and even thou a Playdom Official on the spellborn forums announced the title would be playable until it was closed down, it was only playable for a couple of days over its final few weeks. All of these issues pointed to exceptional inept management from Acclaim, arrogance from Playdom and caused much rage and sadness within the playing community."
http://spellborn.wikia.com/wiki/Shutdown
So not a good indicator I think?
In browser based games there might be a few?
I play Pardus, which has Federation, Union, Empire and Neutral factions (if you include neutral as a faction?) That game survives and is 'balanced' due to the way it is designed. For example: travel distances and times (based on Action Points) are large enough to stop continuous raids into faction territory most of the time. Although the mechanics of an Action Point based game are different to the AAA title we expect DMO to be - I think it shows that with the right mechanics it is possible to 'balance' a 3+ faction game?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I agree, but with the right mechanics its also possible to make a balanced, fun and interesting 2 faction system with factions that could occasionally war within themselves. Lets be honest here, no one has nailed MMO pvp.
Agreed.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Oh - I forgot PotBS...British, French, Spanish and Pirate...which failed.
But again, failed because of poor design choices by the developer early on.
True, the factions were unbalanced too but that might not have been such a big problem if the basic design had been good.
While a game with good mechanics can be made to work with 2 factions... you come back to lore.
That is, if the lore 'supports' more than 2 factions and you can get your basics right for 2 factions - why wouldn't you allow more? I still maintain WH40K is perfect for this and balancing 'mechanics' could be introduced in such a way that they fit right into the game and players accept them.
For example: A 200 player Orc group attemps to attack Tau space. At the time the Tau only have 20 players on. The game automatically posts a warning that the Orcs may attack the Tau if they choose... but due to Warp Storms they can expect 90% casualties before they even arrive. WAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I think DMO will find plenty of success as long as it doesn't try to stay completely within the boundaries of RVR. WAR did that and, combined with only 2 factions, made it boring after a while. It needs to have other content besides that - the old world was just to big and had so much more then a few areas to fight over. I love PVP just as much as anyone, but base a massively multiplayer game around these few areas, with only so large a lake to fight in, it became tedious. It didn't feel like a war was going on.
But DMO? It can have all that content. I love dungeons, raids, boss encounters, epic quest lines that take my character all over the place (with appropriate XP and Rewards). WAR, while fun at times, didn't give me the feeling that this is a world I am in. It just felt like Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 3, Stage 4, restart new character.
Needing is Wanting...
Wanting is Coveting...
Coveting is Sinning...
I am SO going to Hell.
I totally agree here WAR thought RvR was enough in itself to carry thier game. They neglected everything else in favor of it and the game became extremely 1 dimensional becuase of it.
I think they should take a look at the dynamic content that GW2 is doing and maybe adapt accordingly. Quests, The EQ/WOW style are very tired IMO and really help to make the game feel static and lifeless.