Personally I think MMOs have stagnated in a huge and depressing way for years now. Every game is a re-hashing of the same tired mechanics over and over again. I am personally very happy that Bioware is trying to break the mold... and I have found their single-player RPGs to be more entertaining than any MMO release has been over the past few years. If this new game changes it up and plays more like the other Bioware games I love, I will be quite happy...
I willingly embrace the possible sacrifice of traditional MMO elements you fear. As long as the game is fun, I will enjoy it. Nothing else really matters does it?
I think the opposite. SWTOR may well be the last AAA hurrah for MMOs with predominantly static content. Games like GW2 and Rifts are working on dynamic content systems that are doing more to forward the MMO genre, while Bioware is trying to drag it back to the single player realm.
Don;t see these things as an issue or a problem, I read an interview from some one for lucas arts, about three pages in, he stated that SW:Tor was being made for the fans of bioware and star wars, wish I could find it again to post the link, because this was so far in to 3 and half pages of walls of text, I belive allot of folks missed this. I am glad we might have a game that has good story and depth, there are so many half baked game on the market with little or no depths and there is a market for them, but its a market I grow tired of.. Lets have story, !!! I belive this is an RPG with mmo elements, the hardcore mmo'er may not not like tor, unles they can open thier minds to the possability of something a little bit different, the standard mmo mold that has been around sincew 1997 needs to be broken,..:)
at end the only questions that counts will be is there any real game left at the end of the story...
this is the one and only real difference between an good MMO and a good Single Player game... every story driven game has an end regardless of how good the story was ... if it ends then the game ios over... maybe you can repeat it with another class but still it has its end
a good MMO is endless, to be endless means to do things you do again and again still to improve your char in doing so....
we will see if SWKOTOR has a solution for this problem.. if they offer a game that is attracktive enough to log your avataor on after his story is over....
.... if not then this game wil have a short peak of players and then follows the path of the lots of other game to become a game for a small group a fans
no story can be good enough to guarantee a longtern future for a MMO
Couldn't the same complaint be made about GW2 and their personal story system *hides*
No, because we already know they are doing much more with the rest of the game. I'd argue we know less about the personal story system than any other aspect of the game other than activities. We have little to no clue (at this point) what Bioware is actually doing with the rest of SWTOR to set itself apart, and thus my concern. If ArenaNet were talking about GW2's personal storyline all the time and leaving details on the rest of the game's features mostly in the dark, I'd be saying the same thing about that game.
Furthermore, the story doesn't seem to be restricting the game's other features. GW2 looks to be expanding way further on the scope of its predecessor as well as other existing MMOs. The storyline stuff is there, but it would be pretty ridiculous to suggest that's the game's claim to fame.
GW2 is a pretty good example to bring up by comparison, now that I think of it. Both SWTOR and GW2 feature fully voiced personal storylines, and while I expect GW2's will be pretty good, I'm of the mind the SWTOR one will be better (slicker cutscenes, multiplayer dialogue, etc.), but I'm also way more assured that GW2 will have more to the game that sets it apart other than its storyline (we've already seen this), and I can't say the same about SWTOR (yet!). Details are so scant that when Bioware reveals things that may be considered relatively minor (race restrictions to human-like races) it still sets off alarms as it makes you wonder in what other ways will we be restricted in the name of story. Again, this is pretty much the point of the article. The point wasn't to be a wholesale damning of SWTOR, I'm not taking anyones side, it was to give everyone something to think about -- and hopefully discuss in a civil manner.
To that end, I think it's worked pretty well, the discussion has been pretty interesting so far. I also appreciate you all (mostly) keeping it civil so far.
Personally I think MMOs have stagnated in a huge and depressing way for years now. Every game is a re-hashing of the same tired mechanics over and over again. I am personally very happy that Bioware is trying to break the mold... and I have found their single-player RPGs to be more entertaining than any MMO release has been over the past few years. If this new game changes it up and plays more like the other Bioware games I love, I will be quite happy...
I willingly embrace the possible sacrifice of traditional MMO elements you fear. As long as the game is fun, I will enjoy it. Nothing else really matters does it?
I think the opposite. SWTOR may well be the last AAA hurrah for MMOs with predominantly static content. Games like GW2 and Rifts are working on dynamic content systems that are doing more to forward the MMO genre, while Bioware is trying to drag it back to the single player realm.
GW2 "dynamic" content is nothing more then an improved version of WAR's public quest. I guess to you every first person shooter game sucks because they all have cross hairs and ammo.
and these players can also make a lasting impact on how your personal story unfolds.
No they can't. It's already been well established that you are the king of your personal storyline in the game, and that others are just along for the ride. Fact check more please.
Incorrect. Daniel Erickson addressed this question at the PAX Prime panel and stated that other players do indeed make a difference if they make choices in the process of your storyline (there is some sort of "roll" involved), the difference is the game judges by intent when it comes down to the distribution of Light / Dark Side points. For example, when given the choice to murder someone or spare their life, if your character expresses their desire to spare their life, yet someone else in your party executes them (wins the actual decision roll), you will still gain Light Side points, while the murderer will gain Dark Side points, however, the resulting death of the character is permanent.
I think it's a case of misunderstanding here, there's a difference between your personal story as progressed with Class Quests, and any storylines progressed via World Quests (non-Class specific quests, resembling normal quests in other MMO's) and World Arcs.
As Bioware people mentioned:
When grouping the only time someone else can alter your dialogue choice is when performing a World quest. If you are on your own personal class quest only your Dialogue choices count, even when grouped - Comic Con Dev Panel 2010
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Personally I think MMOs have stagnated in a huge and depressing way for years now. Every game is a re-hashing of the same tired mechanics over and over again. I am personally very happy that Bioware is trying to break the mold... and I have found their single-player RPGs to be more entertaining than any MMO release has been over the past few years. If this new game changes it up and plays more like the other Bioware games I love, I will be quite happy...
I willingly embrace the possible sacrifice of traditional MMO elements you fear. As long as the game is fun, I will enjoy it. Nothing else really matters does it?
I think the opposite. SWTOR may well be the last AAA hurrah for MMOs with predominantly static content. Games like GW2 and Rifts are working on dynamic content systems that are doing more to forward the MMO genre, while Bioware is trying to drag it back to the single player realm.
GW2 "dynamic" content is nothing more then an improved version of WAR's public quest. I guess to you every first person shooter game sucks because they all have cross hairs and ammo.
I'm having a hard time dertermining if you agree with me or not. The first sentence agrees that GW2 and Rifts are being evolutionary in the MMO genre, while the personal attack is just plain weird. Lay off the pipe, dude, and chill.
Personally I think MMOs have stagnated in a huge and depressing way for years now. Every game is a re-hashing of the same tired mechanics over and over again. I am personally very happy that Bioware is trying to break the mold... and I have found their single-player RPGs to be more entertaining than any MMO release has been over the past few years. If this new game changes it up and plays more like the other Bioware games I love, I will be quite happy...
I willingly embrace the possible sacrifice of traditional MMO elements you fear. As long as the game is fun, I will enjoy it. Nothing else really matters does it?
I think the opposite. SWTOR may well be the last AAA hurrah for MMOs with predominantly static content. Games like GW2 and Rifts are working on dynamic content systems that are doing more to forward the MMO genre, while Bioware is trying to drag it back to the single player realm.
That is a very valid point, maybe that is why I picture GW2 and Rift as my 2 mmo's for the near future.
I myself have very low expectations for SWTOR, I only enjoy stories in video games when I really like the character I am playing (see Uncharted 1 & 2) gotta love Nolan North. I just don't see myself having that same connection with my plain random hero 10,827 and will just want to get on with the quest at hand.
I feel SWTOR is trying to make the same kill 10 robot quest seem epic with a big cut scene and some reknown old guy telling you how important it is for the sake of humanity. Im just not buying it... at the end of the day its going to have the same old MMO gameplay (stand still shoot laser beams while absorbing lasers) which is fine however I do not think it was designed to go hand in hand with so called epic story telling.
Edit: To clarify, will that cut scene really make tedious quests any more enjoyable?
As far as story being a major focus of the game and limiting it, Im sure it has in some way or another since all those quests required cut scenes and voice acting which I imagine was time consuming and expensive. We will find out if and where these areas are or are not gimped possibly next year I suppose.
GW2 is a pretty good example to bring up by comparison, now that I think of it. Both SWTOR and GW2 feature fully voiced personal storylines, and while I expect GW2's will be pretty good, I'm of the mind the SWTOR one will be better (slicker cutscenes, multiplayer dialogue, etc.), but I'm also way more assured that GW2 will have more to the game that sets it apart other than its storyline (we've already seen this), and I can't say the same about SWTOR (yet!). Details are so scant that when Bioware reveals things that may be considered relatively minor (race restrictions to human-like races) it still sets off alarms as it makes you wonder in what other ways will we be restricted in the name of story. Again, this is pretty much the point of the article. The point wasn't to be a wholesale damning of SWTOR, I'm not taking anyones side, it was to give everyone something to think about -- and hopefully discuss in a civil manner.
While it's true that at the moment there's more revealed about GW2 than SW:TOR, it's also true that there's a lot more revealed about SW:TOR than of other upcoming MMORPG's, like DCUO, Rift, TERA and others.
You only have to look at the wealth of information to be found here, to see that it's all very subjective, the feeling that there isn't revealed much of one game of the other.
I think what plays a large role in that gut feeling, is also emotion: each MMO company hasn't shown or talked in detail about the endgame content in their MMO, they talk about the unique, distinct features that their MMO's have. If you like that distinct feature, then your information need is satisfactorily fulfilled for a while, if you don't like that unique feature, then you're still 'swimming in the dark', and information hungry for more since you're not satisfied yet.
Translated: if you don't like the story aspect of SWTOR or are indifferent towards it, you'll feel as if you know far too little of SW:TOR, if you like the rifts feature in Rift, then you feel as if you don't need to know all the details of other MMO aspects of Rift yet.
So, the perspective of how much you feel a MMO company has revealed is subjective and also linked to whether you liked the features revealed yet, or not.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I just wonder, what if Bioware came out and said that SW:ToR isn't a MMORPG, but would be called a Online Action RPG, would this have limited the more negative responses?
and these players can also make a lasting impact on how your personal story unfolds.
No they can't. It's already been well established that you are the king of your personal storyline in the game, and that others are just along for the ride. Fact check more please.
Incorrect. Daniel Erickson addressed this question at the PAX Prime panel and stated that other players do indeed make a difference if they make choices in the process of your storyline (there is some sort of "roll" involved), the difference is the game judges by intent when it comes down to the distribution of Light / Dark Side points. For example, when given the choice to murder someone or spare their life, if your character expresses their desire to spare their life, yet someone else in your party executes them (wins the actual decision roll), you will still gain Light Side points, while the murderer will gain Dark Side points, however, the resulting death of the character is permanent.
I think it's a case of misunderstanding here, there's a difference between your personal story as progressed with Class Quests, and any storylines progressed via World Quests (non-Class specific quests, resembling normal quests in other MMO's) and World Arcs.
As Bioware people mentioned:
When grouping the only time someone else can alter your dialogue choice is when performing a World quest. If you are on your own personal class quest only your Dialogue choices count, even when grouped - Comic Con Dev Panel 2010
Odd. I got the idea that Daniel meant it for everything, I'll be sure to try and get some clarification should I run into him again.
I now remember why I seldom read the articles on this site. Can we at least wait for the beta, open or closed, before we comment on how the story is the problem? I expect this from the many trolls/haters out there, but not from the writers for the site. I have to believe there are better stories at PAX.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
I now remember why I seldom read the articles on this site. Can we at least wait for the beta, open or closed, before we comment on how the story is the problem? I expect this from the many trolls/haters out there, but not from the writers for the site. I have to believe there are better stories at PAX.
I now remember why I seldom read the articles on this site. Can we at least wait for the beta, open or closed, before we comment on how the story is the problem? I expect this from the many trolls/haters out there, but not from the writers for the site. I have to believe there are better stories at PAX.
Jesus christ lol, do half of you even know what Devil's Advocate means???
Quoted from Wikipedia
"A devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument"
The OP clearly stated he was playing Devil's Advocate for arguments sake... relax fanbois seriously.
Odd. I got the idea that Daniel meant it for everything, I'll be sure to try and get some clarification should I run into him again.
Ah, he was maybe short in his comments, or not very detailed at that moment.
In a number of interviews it has been explained though that there's a difference how team decisions are handled in Class Quests and World Quests and World Arcs.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I now remember why I seldom read the articles on this site. Can we at least wait for the beta, open or closed, before we comment on how the story is the problem? I expect this from the many trolls/haters out there, but not from the writers for the site. I have to believe there are better stories at PAX.
Jesus christ lol, do half of you even know what Devil's Advocate means???
Quoted from Wikipedia
"A devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument"
The OP clearly stated he was playing Devil's Advocate for arguments sake... relax fanbois seriously.
I am not planning on playing the game so I am not a fanboi.
"I have to believe there are better stories at PAX."
I was hoping for a better story out of PAX. This is a wasted opportunity as far as I am concerened. Trying read the entire post.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
A well rounded and balanced critique, and as such a very good example for good critique! It picks the flaws and still looks hopefully for the good parts.
[Mod Edit]
Be that as it may, I too have this feeling Bioware would have better off with more KOTOR games, and if, ultimately, SWTOR will not be more a sort of co-op Online game like Cryptic's new Neverwinter. Sure, it will have open content. The question is, will people actually play it? And will they group for it? Bioware has always touted out that you can single play to max level. Now one of my experience after years of MMO-gaming is: 9 out of 10 gamers who CAN do something alone WILL do it alone. Especially if you take into consideration that your dialogue decision can be overruled by other meanies, and we all know MMOs are not really short of mean people. Given all we know about how MMO players are, I expect a vast number of people to go all solo. And once a considerable part of gamerd DOES solo all the time, it will make it nigh to impossible for those who want to group to find people to group with! It is just very idealistic of Bioware to assume people will group when they are essentially better off soloing.
In every single system of TOR outside of story itself, what Bioware offers us is extremely mediocre and narrow. The list of things we can NOT do grew much faster than the list of things we CAN do, and already the way many gamer view TOR due to these unfortunate revelations, the chances for TOR get slimmer with each passing day, justified or not. And can SOMEONE please stop Mr. Erickson from talking! How is it that EVERY single like this man says makes my neck swell in anger? "Those who can't imagine to date Leia can't play the game!" Well THANK you for dissing out all women, gay gamers AND those who don't care for romances in one sentences. That man is a PR CATASTROPHE! I mean why not make Jar Jar Binks speaker of Bioware! No wonder Sean Dahlberg quit, I guess he just had enough to clean all the mess behind Erickson.
[mod edit - please no politics, thanks .:)]
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Personally I think MMOs have stagnated in a huge and depressing way for years now. Every game is a re-hashing of the same tired mechanics over and over again. I am personally very happy that Bioware is trying to break the mold... and I have found their single-player RPGs to be more entertaining than any MMO release has been over the past few years. If this new game changes it up and plays more like the other Bioware games I love, I will be quite happy...
I willingly embrace the possible sacrifice of traditional MMO elements you fear. As long as the game is fun, I will enjoy it. Nothing else really matters does it?
I think the opposite. SWTOR may well be the last AAA hurrah for MMOs with predominantly static content. Games like GW2 and Rifts are working on dynamic content systems that are doing more to forward the MMO genre, while Bioware is trying to drag it back to the single player realm.
GW2 "dynamic" content is nothing more then an improved version of WAR's public quest. I guess to you every first person shooter game sucks because they all have cross hairs and ammo.
I'm having a hard time dertermining if you agree with me or not. The first sentence agrees that GW2 and Rifts are being evolutionary in the MMO genre, while the personal attack is just plain weird. Lay off the pipe, dude, and chill.
In layman's terms, A musket with a bayonet on it is an improvement. An M16 is an improvement. A laser gun is an evolution.
You really hit the nail on the head for me in this article. I always expected BW to make something 'other' than SWG II or WoW II.. so while others where putting on the blinders and 'hoping' this game would be the ultimate MMO of all time with the very best feature from every game they like... I didn't quite build up that level of expectation.
I remembered something said.. and forgive me for not linking or quoting precisely.. but I recall reading that BIOWARE was making a 'MMO-Like' version of KOTOR. To me. thats not a full featured MMO commitment.. thats not SWG II.. but more of an extension on a single player game but in a 'massive' multiplayer environment. All that means to me is that I can group (or not) with other player to do the pre-defined missions.
I think the very definition of MMO has shifted... and the usage of 'MMO" is being applied to a number of variations on the concept of 'massive multiplayer'.. but minus the RPG or World-Driven economy stuff.. like crafting, enterainment, housing, cities, honest to goodness space flight sim... the stuff that makes you feel part of the 'world' and not just a character in a pre-written story.
BIOWARE is gambling here.. on a MMO Audience.. and audience formed by people who HAVE played Sandbox MMO games like SWG, EvE... as well as the 'new' traditional instance/raid MMO games like WoW, LOTRO, CoH, etc. By calling SWTOR a MMO product.. they are going to attract the attention (and critisms) of the MMO audience. And I think that particular audience is starting to get the big picture... TOR is not a traditional MMO... it will possibly have a lot less of the traditional MMO features.. as 'open ended choices' are traded off for fully voiced, cinematic, multiple-ending cutscenes.
SWTOR is going to look great.. sound great.. and probably be a total riot for KOTOR fans till they blow through the majority of the game content.
Then.. SWTOR is going to have to mature into something broader to keep that MMO audience.. who expect a fun end-game.. expect social aspects.. and don't always want to do re-roll another character just to 'read it again'.
Keeping ahead of the story curve is a slippery slope.. players DO powerlevel.. they DO play all night and all day just to get to the ending as fast as possible. Its much easier for a player to out-pace development.
So.. while I am not worried about SWTOR being a fun game.. a great story.. a visual experience.. I am concerned the the MMO Player Community is still setting itself up for disappointment if they don't see this product for what it is.
SWTOR is a book.. an illustrated book.. with different chapters for different characters and situatoins.. but its still lineal.. and like all books it has an ending... till the author writes a sequal.
I am looking forward to SWTOR.. I love a good Star Wars story... I love cutscenes (the first time).. I love listening to dialog (once or twice)... and I love the look of the Star Wars universe comming ot life.
But will I re-do every character to re-experience the game from a different profession viewpoint.. maybe.. its too early to tell just yet.
I think the people who are most concerned about the story aspect of this game are the ones who find they like to tell their own story--the ones who want to make their character in an MMO what THEY want it to be.
Having to follow BW's path is a bit disconcerting to those who care about unique characters and continuity. I mean, how many times will I have to cringe when all the Sith Warriors in the room have the same companion character out?
Be honest. How much does the general storyline in MMO's like AoC or LotrO really distract people from telling/having their own stories? I didn't see it be any problem at all to even the hardcore RP'ers on those games, let alone the rest.
Even MMO's like WoW and EQ2 have their storylines in the quests where you are the hero to slay the only dragon after which you have saved the population... only to have that same dragon be up and running again within a few minutes and the city in need of rescuing again. People didn't mind, they didn't feel the stories in the questlines hampering them in their own personal stories in all those MMO's, so why would they suddenly feel it in SW:TOR?
Besides, they've stated again that for those who like to the Class Stories can be ignored and other ways of leveling and progress are available (exploration, PvP, crafting, World Quest = regular quests, minigames etc), just as there is all kinds of endgame content (raiding, Flashpoints, warzones, World Arcs, etc).
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I dont tend to read any opinions on SWTOR anymore - just game news
The opinions seem meaningless without context
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
Comments
I don't see a problem with not being able to play non-humanoid races at start.
I think the opposite. SWTOR may well be the last AAA hurrah for MMOs with predominantly static content. Games like GW2 and Rifts are working on dynamic content systems that are doing more to forward the MMO genre, while Bioware is trying to drag it back to the single player realm.
Don;t see these things as an issue or a problem, I read an interview from some one for lucas arts, about three pages in, he stated that SW:Tor was being made for the fans of bioware and star wars, wish I could find it again to post the link, because this was so far in to 3 and half pages of walls of text, I belive allot of folks missed this. I am glad we might have a game that has good story and depth, there are so many half baked game on the market with little or no depths and there is a market for them, but its a market I grow tired of.. Lets have story, !!!
I belive this is an RPG with mmo elements, the hardcore mmo'er may not not like tor, unles they can open thier minds to the possability of something a little bit different, the standard mmo mold that has been around sincew 1997 needs to be broken,..:)
at end the only questions that counts will be is there any real game left at the end of the story...
this is the one and only real difference between an good MMO and a good Single Player game... every story driven game has an end regardless of how good the story was ... if it ends then the game ios over... maybe you can repeat it with another class but still it has its end
a good MMO is endless, to be endless means to do things you do again and again still to improve your char in doing so....
we will see if SWKOTOR has a solution for this problem.. if they offer a game that is attracktive enough to log your avataor on after his story is over....
.... if not then this game wil have a short peak of players and then follows the path of the lots of other game to become a game for a small group a fans
no story can be good enough to guarantee a longtern future for a MMO
No, because we already know they are doing much more with the rest of the game. I'd argue we know less about the personal story system than any other aspect of the game other than activities. We have little to no clue (at this point) what Bioware is actually doing with the rest of SWTOR to set itself apart, and thus my concern. If ArenaNet were talking about GW2's personal storyline all the time and leaving details on the rest of the game's features mostly in the dark, I'd be saying the same thing about that game.
Furthermore, the story doesn't seem to be restricting the game's other features. GW2 looks to be expanding way further on the scope of its predecessor as well as other existing MMOs. The storyline stuff is there, but it would be pretty ridiculous to suggest that's the game's claim to fame.
GW2 is a pretty good example to bring up by comparison, now that I think of it. Both SWTOR and GW2 feature fully voiced personal storylines, and while I expect GW2's will be pretty good, I'm of the mind the SWTOR one will be better (slicker cutscenes, multiplayer dialogue, etc.), but I'm also way more assured that GW2 will have more to the game that sets it apart other than its storyline (we've already seen this), and I can't say the same about SWTOR (yet!). Details are so scant that when Bioware reveals things that may be considered relatively minor (race restrictions to human-like races) it still sets off alarms as it makes you wonder in what other ways will we be restricted in the name of story. Again, this is pretty much the point of the article.
The point wasn't to be a wholesale damning of SWTOR, I'm not taking anyones side, it was to give everyone something to think about -- and hopefully discuss in a civil manner.
To that end, I think it's worked pretty well, the discussion has been pretty interesting so far. I also appreciate you all (mostly) keeping it civil so far.
GW2 "dynamic" content is nothing more then an improved version of WAR's public quest. I guess to you every first person shooter game sucks because they all have cross hairs and ammo.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
I think it's a case of misunderstanding here, there's a difference between your personal story as progressed with Class Quests, and any storylines progressed via World Quests (non-Class specific quests, resembling normal quests in other MMO's) and World Arcs.
As Bioware people mentioned:
When grouping the only time someone else can alter your dialogue choice is when performing a World quest. If you are on your own personal class quest only your Dialogue choices count, even when grouped - Comic Con Dev Panel 2010
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm having a hard time dertermining if you agree with me or not. The first sentence agrees that GW2 and Rifts are being evolutionary in the MMO genre, while the personal attack is just plain weird. Lay off the pipe, dude, and chill.
That is a very valid point, maybe that is why I picture GW2 and Rift as my 2 mmo's for the near future.
I myself have very low expectations for SWTOR, I only enjoy stories in video games when I really like the character I am playing (see Uncharted 1 & 2) gotta love Nolan North. I just don't see myself having that same connection with my plain random hero 10,827 and will just want to get on with the quest at hand.
I feel SWTOR is trying to make the same kill 10 robot quest seem epic with a big cut scene and some reknown old guy telling you how important it is for the sake of humanity. Im just not buying it... at the end of the day its going to have the same old MMO gameplay (stand still shoot laser beams while absorbing lasers) which is fine however I do not think it was designed to go hand in hand with so called epic story telling.
Edit: To clarify, will that cut scene really make tedious quests any more enjoyable?
As far as story being a major focus of the game and limiting it, Im sure it has in some way or another since all those quests required cut scenes and voice acting which I imagine was time consuming and expensive. We will find out if and where these areas are or are not gimped possibly next year I suppose.
While it's true that at the moment there's more revealed about GW2 than SW:TOR, it's also true that there's a lot more revealed about SW:TOR than of other upcoming MMORPG's, like DCUO, Rift, TERA and others.
You only have to look at the wealth of information to be found here, to see that it's all very subjective, the feeling that there isn't revealed much of one game of the other.
I think what plays a large role in that gut feeling, is also emotion: each MMO company hasn't shown or talked in detail about the endgame content in their MMO, they talk about the unique, distinct features that their MMO's have. If you like that distinct feature, then your information need is satisfactorily fulfilled for a while, if you don't like that unique feature, then you're still 'swimming in the dark', and information hungry for more since you're not satisfied yet.
Translated: if you don't like the story aspect of SWTOR or are indifferent towards it, you'll feel as if you know far too little of SW:TOR, if you like the rifts feature in Rift, then you feel as if you don't need to know all the details of other MMO aspects of Rift yet.
So, the perspective of how much you feel a MMO company has revealed is subjective and also linked to whether you liked the features revealed yet, or not.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I just wonder, what if Bioware came out and said that SW:ToR isn't a MMORPG, but would be called a Online Action RPG, would this have limited the more negative responses?
Odd. I got the idea that Daniel meant it for everything, I'll be sure to try and get some clarification should I run into him again.
I now remember why I seldom read the articles on this site. Can we at least wait for the beta, open or closed, before we comment on how the story is the problem? I expect this from the many trolls/haters out there, but not from the writers for the site. I have to believe there are better stories at PAX.
--John Ruskin
I agree with you 100%
Jesus christ lol, do half of you even know what Devil's Advocate means???
Quoted from Wikipedia
"A devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument"
The OP clearly stated he was playing Devil's Advocate for arguments sake... relax fanbois seriously.
Ah, he was maybe short in his comments, or not very detailed at that moment.
In a number of interviews it has been explained though that there's a difference how team decisions are handled in Class Quests and World Quests and World Arcs.
Basically:
- Class Quests: you rule, your voice is dominant
- World Quests/World Arcs: group decision/roll
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am not planning on playing the game so I am not a fanboi.
"I have to believe there are better stories at PAX."
I was hoping for a better story out of PAX. This is a wasted opportunity as far as I am concerened. Trying read the entire post.
--John Ruskin
A well rounded and balanced critique, and as such a very good example for good critique! It picks the flaws and still looks hopefully for the good parts.
[Mod Edit]
Be that as it may, I too have this feeling Bioware would have better off with more KOTOR games, and if, ultimately, SWTOR will not be more a sort of co-op Online game like Cryptic's new Neverwinter. Sure, it will have open content. The question is, will people actually play it? And will they group for it? Bioware has always touted out that you can single play to max level. Now one of my experience after years of MMO-gaming is: 9 out of 10 gamers who CAN do something alone WILL do it alone. Especially if you take into consideration that your dialogue decision can be overruled by other meanies, and we all know MMOs are not really short of mean people. Given all we know about how MMO players are, I expect a vast number of people to go all solo. And once a considerable part of gamerd DOES solo all the time, it will make it nigh to impossible for those who want to group to find people to group with! It is just very idealistic of Bioware to assume people will group when they are essentially better off soloing.
In every single system of TOR outside of story itself, what Bioware offers us is extremely mediocre and narrow. The list of things we can NOT do grew much faster than the list of things we CAN do, and already the way many gamer view TOR due to these unfortunate revelations, the chances for TOR get slimmer with each passing day, justified or not. And can SOMEONE please stop Mr. Erickson from talking! How is it that EVERY single like this man says makes my neck swell in anger? "Those who can't imagine to date Leia can't play the game!" Well THANK you for dissing out all women, gay gamers AND those who don't care for romances in one sentences. That man is a PR CATASTROPHE! I mean why not make Jar Jar Binks speaker of Bioware! No wonder Sean Dahlberg quit, I guess he just had enough to clean all the mess behind Erickson.
[mod edit - please no politics, thanks .:)]
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
In layman's terms, A musket with a bayonet on it is an improvement. An M16 is an improvement. A laser gun is an evolution.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
You really hit the nail on the head for me in this article. I always expected BW to make something 'other' than SWG II or WoW II.. so while others where putting on the blinders and 'hoping' this game would be the ultimate MMO of all time with the very best feature from every game they like... I didn't quite build up that level of expectation.
I remembered something said.. and forgive me for not linking or quoting precisely.. but I recall reading that BIOWARE was making a 'MMO-Like' version of KOTOR. To me. thats not a full featured MMO commitment.. thats not SWG II.. but more of an extension on a single player game but in a 'massive' multiplayer environment. All that means to me is that I can group (or not) with other player to do the pre-defined missions.
I think the very definition of MMO has shifted... and the usage of 'MMO" is being applied to a number of variations on the concept of 'massive multiplayer'.. but minus the RPG or World-Driven economy stuff.. like crafting, enterainment, housing, cities, honest to goodness space flight sim... the stuff that makes you feel part of the 'world' and not just a character in a pre-written story.
BIOWARE is gambling here.. on a MMO Audience.. and audience formed by people who HAVE played Sandbox MMO games like SWG, EvE... as well as the 'new' traditional instance/raid MMO games like WoW, LOTRO, CoH, etc. By calling SWTOR a MMO product.. they are going to attract the attention (and critisms) of the MMO audience. And I think that particular audience is starting to get the big picture... TOR is not a traditional MMO... it will possibly have a lot less of the traditional MMO features.. as 'open ended choices' are traded off for fully voiced, cinematic, multiple-ending cutscenes.
SWTOR is going to look great.. sound great.. and probably be a total riot for KOTOR fans till they blow through the majority of the game content.
Then.. SWTOR is going to have to mature into something broader to keep that MMO audience.. who expect a fun end-game.. expect social aspects.. and don't always want to do re-roll another character just to 'read it again'.
Keeping ahead of the story curve is a slippery slope.. players DO powerlevel.. they DO play all night and all day just to get to the ending as fast as possible. Its much easier for a player to out-pace development.
So.. while I am not worried about SWTOR being a fun game.. a great story.. a visual experience.. I am concerned the the MMO Player Community is still setting itself up for disappointment if they don't see this product for what it is.
SWTOR is a book.. an illustrated book.. with different chapters for different characters and situatoins.. but its still lineal.. and like all books it has an ending... till the author writes a sequal.
I am looking forward to SWTOR.. I love a good Star Wars story... I love cutscenes (the first time).. I love listening to dialog (once or twice)... and I love the look of the Star Wars universe comming ot life.
But will I re-do every character to re-experience the game from a different profession viewpoint.. maybe.. its too early to tell just yet.
SWG/STO/(SWTOR)
Pfft.
Another "article" about someone's speculation being passed off as information
I think the people who are most concerned about the story aspect of this game are the ones who find they like to tell their own story--the ones who want to make their character in an MMO what THEY want it to be.
Having to follow BW's path is a bit disconcerting to those who care about unique characters and continuity. I mean, how many times will I have to cringe when all the Sith Warriors in the room have the same companion character out?
Ok? So there isn't really a problem you just have a doubt? I imagine its multiplied ten fold when you frequent these forums.
Be honest. How much does the general storyline in MMO's like AoC or LotrO really distract people from telling/having their own stories? I didn't see it be any problem at all to even the hardcore RP'ers on those games, let alone the rest.
Even MMO's like WoW and EQ2 have their storylines in the quests where you are the hero to slay the only dragon after which you have saved the population... only to have that same dragon be up and running again within a few minutes and the city in need of rescuing again. People didn't mind, they didn't feel the stories in the questlines hampering them in their own personal stories in all those MMO's, so why would they suddenly feel it in SW:TOR?
Besides, they've stated again that for those who like to the Class Stories can be ignored and other ways of leveling and progress are available (exploration, PvP, crafting, World Quest = regular quests, minigames etc), just as there is all kinds of endgame content (raiding, Flashpoints, warzones, World Arcs, etc).
Just like in any other MMORPG.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I dont tend to read any opinions on SWTOR anymore - just game news
The opinions seem meaningless without context
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW