You guys are really complaining about this change? Really? I can think of some valid complaints about their design changes or direction in the game in general but this is certainly not one of them. You all really enjoyed mutliple levels of currency? And most of that currency was outdated and useless. Of all things to complain about...
Players will play, whiners will whine.
And people like me? We just stop paying for such a retarded game and go play something like Eve. Overcoming challenge = great fun. But sadly WoW is now 100% without risk. I had to laugh actually - the very last PUG I went on in WoW was a wipe. No big deal - 60 seconds run back, maybe another 30 seconds healing, drinking and buffing. But people are bitching and whinging like crazy because of one tiny setback. I was laughing my arse off at the thought of these children in a game like Eve where there are real risks and rewards. I didn't bother renewing my WoW sub and have been happily playing MMOs that reward risk taking ever since.
I have to wonder if WoW players even know what real fun is any more. I think most probably don't. They're so scared of taking any risks or doing anything difficult, that they settle for boring and easy activities, and those without any risk, and they convince themselves that is real fun. Uh... no. It's not. It's a yawnfest *shakes head*
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Yes raiders have been whining from the first day that people could get Epics without raiding.
I can understand why, They spend their whole lives raiding to get some epic item, then one day anyone can get one without dedicating their whole lives to a game.
However as someone who has a full time job, I really do not feel for the raiders. I welcome them to go find another game while WoW continues to give me reasons to keep paying them every month.
Well.. I have a full time job as well but it's getting to a point where the casual player wants everything handed to them . It's a MMO not a single player game so I welcome the casual player to go find a single player game if they can't deal with putting time into a game. Anyways... As far as the currency change it's not a big deal to me.
where does it say that a MMO stands for forced grouping?
MMO is just a game on a server with lots of ppl on it.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Yep, WoW needs so much more "simplifying" that pretty soon it will be played with 1 click to reach endgame.
lol You took the words right out of my mouth .Still my 6 year old nephew has started playing this now so anything that makes it easier for him to understand I guess will be good for him . Hes doing pretty well really for his age . Still if youngsters are playing wow as a first mmo they will graduate to more complex ones sooner or later so its all good for mmos in general .
I wanna know what the more complex ones are because I've yet to see them.
Age of Conan DDO , LOTRO, Vanguard , EVE, fallen earth , too many to list really . Actually up untill about 2 years ago I would have said WoW itself offered some degree of challenge but not anymore too many changes like this aimed at ease of play made it unplayable for many mature players . Still my nephews enjoying it as are millions of other children. .
.................you think those are more complex games? oh lord.
HARDLY. Yeah I'v played them all extensively, the only one that might even count if EVE - and not even that game - it's just a longer character building process.
You guys are really complaining about this change? Really? I can think of some valid complaints about their design changes or direction in the game in general but this is certainly not one of them. You all really enjoyed mutliple levels of currency? And most of that currency was outdated and useless. Of all things to complain about...
Players will play, whiners will whine.
And people like me? We just stop paying for such a retarded game and go play something like Eve. Overcoming challenge = great fun. But sadly WoW is now 100% without risk. I had to laugh actually - the very last PUG I went on in WoW was a wipe. No big deal - 60 seconds run back, maybe another 30 seconds healing, drinking and buffing. But people are bitching and whinging like crazy because of one tiny setback. I was laughing my arse off at the thought of these children in a game like Eve where there are real risks and rewards. I didn't bother renewing my WoW sub and have been happily playing MMOs that reward risk taking ever since.
I have to wonder if WoW players even know what real fun is any more. I think most probably don't. They're so scared of taking any risks or doing anything difficult, that they settle for boring and easy activities, and those without any risk, and they convince themselves that is real fun. Uh... no. It's not. It's a yawnfest *shakes head*
I have to wonder how someone can think so highly of themselves? Ego much?
Quit equating risk and difficult with a VIDEO GAME, if you are really finding any game difficult you need to beef up your RL life a bit jimmy.
and while yu're at it, quit thinking you are the mastermind of the universe for choosing one game over another. They aren't that different. seriously. what a joke
Yes raiders have been whining from the first day that people could get Epics without raiding.
I can understand why, They spend their whole lives raiding to get some epic item, then one day anyone can get one without dedicating their whole lives to a game.
However as someone who has a full time job, I really do not feel for the raiders. I welcome them to go find another game while WoW continues to give me reasons to keep paying them every month.
no one has spent their whole lives doing anything in WoW. Unless they are 5 years old.
Yep, WoW needs so much more "simplifying" that pretty soon it will be played with 1 click to reach endgame.
lol You took the words right out of my mouth .Still my 6 year old nephew has started playing this now so anything that makes it easier for him to understand I guess will be good for him . Hes doing pretty well really for his age . Still if youngsters are playing wow as a first mmo they will graduate to more complex ones sooner or later so its all good for mmos in general .
I wanna know what the more complex ones are because I've yet to see them.
Age of Conan DDO , LOTRO, Vanguard , EVE, fallen earth , too many to list really . Actually up untill about 2 years ago I would have said WoW itself offered some degree of challenge but not anymore too many changes like this aimed at ease of play made it unplayable for many mature players . Still my nephews enjoying it as are millions of other children. .
.................you think those are more complex games? oh lord.
HARDLY. Yeah I'v played them all extensively, the only one that might even count if EVE - and not even that game - it's just a longer character building process.
Your agrument is 100% fail.
Ah...you missed the qualifier. "...........you think those are more complex games than WoW?...."
Actually, yes...more so than WoW. Doesn't mean those games are particularly complex...just more so than WoW. WoW has gotten so simplified that my wife was able to out-dps most people of equal gear using just 2 keys with her mage (she got so frustrated with how easy everything had become, and with Wrath sheeping was no longer needed, she gave it go and found that wonderful surprise). Sadly, even my tween daughter has gotten bored with WoW because it offers no challenge to her, and she is even getting sick of the massive number of kiddies whining about any little thing that may be a challenge or go wrong.
As for the currency changes, I'm not particularly surprised. With Ghostcrawler at the helm, WoW is being aimed at overall simplification largely at younger and younger children who Blizzard found actually has a surprisingly good supply of money to spend on not just the WoW subscription, but all of their other extras (cards, action figures, etc).
Yep, WoW needs so much more "simplifying" that pretty soon it will be played with 1 click to reach endgame.
lol You took the words right out of my mouth .Still my 6 year old nephew has started playing this now so anything that makes it easier for him to understand I guess will be good for him . Hes doing pretty well really for his age . Still if youngsters are playing wow as a first mmo they will graduate to more complex ones sooner or later so its all good for mmos in general .
I wanna know what the more complex ones are because I've yet to see them.
Age of Conan DDO , LOTRO, Vanguard , EVE, fallen earth , too many to list really . Actually up untill about 2 years ago I would have said WoW itself offered some degree of challenge but not anymore too many changes like this aimed at ease of play made it unplayable for many mature players . Still my nephews enjoying it as are millions of other children. .
.................you think those are more complex games? oh lord.
HARDLY. Yeah I'v played them all extensively, the only one that might even count if EVE - and not even that game - it's just a longer character building process.
Your agrument is 100% fail.
Ah...you missed the qualifier. "...........you think those are more complex games than WoW?...."
Actually, yes...more so than WoW. Doesn't mean those games are particularly complex...just more so than WoW. WoW has gotten so simplified that my wife was able to out-dps most people of equal gear using just 2 keys with her mage (she got so frustrated with how easy everything had become, and with Wrath sheeping was no longer needed, she gave it go and found that wonderful surprise). Sadly, even my tween daughter has gotten bored with WoW because it offers no challenge to her, and she is even getting sick of the massive number of kiddies whining about any little thing that may be a challenge or go wrong.
As for the currency changes, I'm not particularly surprised. With Ghostcrawler at the helm, WoW is being aimed at overall simplification largely at younger and younger children who Blizzard found actually has a surprisingly good supply of money to spend on not just the WoW subscription, but all of their other extras (cards, action figures, etc).
While WoW has gotten easier for the masses, it also offers hard modes and PvP. You can't sit around and hit 2 buttons in either situation.
Here's my list for complexity out of those games overall:
EVE
DDO
5-Way tie: WoW, Age of Conan, DDO , LOTRO, Vanguard
Fallen Earth - Strangly, in my opinion this is the simplest of them all with almost nothing to do at endgame mixed with FPS style combat. Everyone can craft everything. The builds tend to be too much alike in my opinion. (Melee, Ranged, etc.) I always had the feeling of being the same as everyone else with nothing to do.
Oh, and about the topic - Great change. Old, leftover badges was a sloppy game design choice in the first place.
Yep, WoW needs so much more "simplifying" that pretty soon it will be played with 1 click to reach endgame.
lol You took the words right out of my mouth .Still my 6 year old nephew has started playing this now so anything that makes it easier for him to understand I guess will be good for him . Hes doing pretty well really for his age . Still if youngsters are playing wow as a first mmo they will graduate to more complex ones sooner or later so its all good for mmos in general .
I wanna know what the more complex ones are because I've yet to see them.
Age of Conan DDO , LOTRO, Vanguard , EVE, fallen earth , too many to list really . Actually up untill about 2 years ago I would have said WoW itself offered some degree of challenge but not anymore too many changes like this aimed at ease of play made it unplayable for many mature players . Still my nephews enjoying it as are millions of other children. .
.................you think those are more complex games? oh lord.
HARDLY. Yeah I'v played them all extensively, the only one that might even count if EVE - and not even that game - it's just a longer character building process.
Your agrument is 100% fail.
Ah...you missed the qualifier. "...........you think those are more complex games than WoW?...."
Actually, yes...more so than WoW. Doesn't mean those games are particularly complex...just more so than WoW. WoW has gotten so simplified that my wife was able to out-dps most people of equal gear using just 2 keys with her mage (she got so frustrated with how easy everything had become, and with Wrath sheeping was no longer needed, she gave it go and found that wonderful surprise). Sadly, even my tween daughter has gotten bored with WoW because it offers no challenge to her, and she is even getting sick of the massive number of kiddies whining about any little thing that may be a challenge or go wrong.
Right because hitting attack, taunt, evade and (if you were a monk) feign death in Everquest was that much more complex, right? Could you link your tween daughter and your wife's armory because since the game offers no challenge I'm sure they had no problem with 25 man ICC lich king.
As for the currency changes, I'm not particularly surprised. With Ghostcrawler at the helm, WoW is being aimed at overall simplification largely at younger and younger children who Blizzard found actually has a surprisingly good supply of money to spend on not just the WoW subscription, but all of their other extras (cards, action figures, etc).
What exactly are you arguing, that there should be 10 different types of currency? You actually believe it's good gameplay to bog down your game with a bunch currencies? When you buy stuff from vendors you must pay in copper, right?
Originally posted by Dyner ROFL, All I hear is: "we don't want you to raid"
Crazy you say? Arthas-Alliance went from winning 50% of all WGs to winning 3 times A WEEK after making the WG-dailies into weeklies. In short, putiing a cap on anything reduces the desire to contnue doing said activity again.......
You missed the part where you can spend those points? If you hit the 'cap' spend a few points and you're no longer capped.
Yep, WoW needs so much more "simplifying" that pretty soon it will be played with 1 click to reach endgame.
lol You took the words right out of my mouth .Still my 6 year old nephew has started playing this now so anything that makes it easier for him to understand I guess will be good for him . Hes doing pretty well really for his age . Still if youngsters are playing wow as a first mmo they will graduate to more complex ones sooner or later so its all good for mmos in general .
I wanna know what the more complex ones are because I've yet to see them.
Age of Conan DDO , LOTRO, Vanguard , EVE, fallen earth , too many to list really . Actually up untill about 2 years ago I would have said WoW itself offered some degree of challenge but not anymore too many changes like this aimed at ease of play made it unplayable for many mature players . Still my nephews enjoying it as are millions of other children. .
.................you think those are more complex games? oh lord.
HARDLY. Yeah I'v played them all extensively, the only one that might even count if EVE - and not even that game - it's just a longer character building process.
Your agrument is 100% fail.
Ah...you missed the qualifier. "...........you think those are more complex games than WoW?...."
Actually, yes...more so than WoW. Doesn't mean those games are particularly complex...just more so than WoW. WoW has gotten so simplified that my wife was able to out-dps most people of equal gear using just 2 keys with her mage (she got so frustrated with how easy everything had become, and with Wrath sheeping was no longer needed, she gave it go and found that wonderful surprise). Sadly, even my tween daughter has gotten bored with WoW because it offers no challenge to her, and she is even getting sick of the massive number of kiddies whining about any little thing that may be a challenge or go wrong.
As for the currency changes, I'm not particularly surprised. With Ghostcrawler at the helm, WoW is being aimed at overall simplification largely at younger and younger children who Blizzard found actually has a surprisingly good supply of money to spend on not just the WoW subscription, but all of their other extras (cards, action figures, etc).
While WoW has gotten easier for the masses, it also offers hard modes and PvP. You can't sit around and hit 2 buttons in either situation.
Here's my list for complexity out of those games overall:
EVE
DDO
5-Way tie: WoW, Age of Conan, DDO , LOTRO, Vanguard
Fallen Earth - Strangly, in my opinion this is the simplest of them all with almost nothing to do at endgame mixed with FPS style combat. Everyone can craft everything. The builds tend to be too much alike in my opinion. (Melee, Ranged, etc.) I always had the feeling of being the same as everyone else with nothing to do.
Oh, and about the topic - Great change. Old, leftover badges was a sloppy game design choice in the first place.
Of all the games you listed - EvE is by far the least complicated in so far as combat is concerned. EvE's complexity comes from the shear amount of inter-connected-required skills training(to become good at something - say mining, or combat) and the UI requires some learning. Other than that, EvE is not complicated at all. Please...I play EvE. I am so tired of people saying how hard it is. The fun in EvE comes from micro-managing. If you love to micro-manage, than EvE is a good game to get into.
Originally posted by Wizardling6 And people like me? We just stop paying for such a retarded game and go play something like Eve. Overcoming challenge = great fun. But sadly WoW is now 100% without risk. I had to laugh actually - the very last PUG I went on in WoW was a wipe. No big deal - 60 seconds run back, maybe another 30 seconds healing, drinking and buffing. But people are bitching and whinging like crazy because of one tiny setback. I was laughing my arse off at the thought of these children in a game like Eve where there are real risks and rewards. I didn't bother renewing my WoW sub and have been happily playing MMOs that reward risk taking ever since.
Ok... cool, go play another game, you're supposed to play what you enjoy end of story. Speaking of child like attitudes the whole "I'm taking my toys and leaving argument" can be left behind once you're of reasonable maturity level. Secondly, what does simplification of a horrible monetary mechanic that was broken in the first place have to do with overcoming challenges? If it's more of a challenge to deal with the system than kill the bosses, it's time for the system to be fixed.
Originally posted by Wizardling6 I have to wonder if WoW players even know what real fun is any more. I think most probably don't. They're so scared of taking any risks or doing anything difficult, that they settle for boring and easy activities, and those without any risk, and they convince themselves that is real fun. Uh... no. It's not. It's a yawnfest *shakes head*
I'm sure they don't, because only you know what fun is and you dictate what fun is for every other player of every game no matter what style of games they enjoy.......... /facepalm.
Like I said, players play, whiners whine. More play, less whine. I personally haven't played wow in over a year, but it wasn't a bad game, I've just done all I care to do in it. Ditto on eq2, uo, daoc, swg, ao, and eq1 at some point.
Lots of us have played eve and just found it boring as hell, playing a particular game or not playing a game does not make you superior to another person nor is it intrinsically better or worse or more or less fun. Different people find different things fun.
Yep, WoW needs so much more "simplifying" that pretty soon it will be played with 1 click to reach endgame.
lol You took the words right out of my mouth .Still my 6 year old nephew has started playing this now so anything that makes it easier for him to understand I guess will be good for him . Hes doing pretty well really for his age . Still if youngsters are playing wow as a first mmo they will graduate to more complex ones sooner or later so its all good for mmos in general .
I wanna know what the more complex ones are because I've yet to see them.
Age of Conan DDO , LOTRO, Vanguard , EVE, fallen earth , too many to list really . Actually up untill about 2 years ago I would have said WoW itself offered some degree of challenge but not anymore too many changes like this aimed at ease of play made it unplayable for many mature players . Still my nephews enjoying it as are millions of other children. .
.................you think those are more complex games? oh lord.
HARDLY. Yeah I'v played them all extensively, the only one that might even count if EVE - and not even that game - it's just a longer character building process.
Your agrument is 100% fail.
You seem to have a rather odd definition of "complex" then. EVE has one of the steepest learning curves there is for on line games. Its also rather deep and complex. I'm long past amused by those who turn up their nose at WoW. Blizzard must be doing something right(many somethings in fact...) to keep their subscriber numbers up in a game thats nearly 6 years old.
Yep, WoW needs so much more "simplifying" that pretty soon it will be played with 1 click to reach endgame.
lol You took the words right out of my mouth .Still my 6 year old nephew has started playing this now so anything that makes it easier for him to understand I guess will be good for him . Hes doing pretty well really for his age . Still if youngsters are playing wow as a first mmo they will graduate to more complex ones sooner or later so its all good for mmos in general .
I wanna know what the more complex ones are because I've yet to see them.
Age of Conan DDO , LOTRO, Vanguard , EVE, fallen earth , too many to list really . Actually up untill about 2 years ago I would have said WoW itself offered some degree of challenge but not anymore too many changes like this aimed at ease of play made it unplayable for many mature players . Still my nephews enjoying it as are millions of other children. .
.................you think those are more complex games? oh lord.
HARDLY. Yeah I'v played them all extensively, the only one that might even count if EVE - and not even that game - it's just a longer character building process.
Your agrument is 100% fail.
You seem to have a rather odd definition of "complex" then. EVE has one of the steepest learning curves there is for on line games. Its also rather deep and complex. I'm long past amused by those who turn up their nose at WoW. Blizzard must be doing something right(many somethings in fact...) to keep their subscriber numbers up in a game thats nearly 6 years old.
do I? sorry, didn't realize I had posted my definition of the word - which by the way is the same one miriam-webester has stuck in their book.
See, the only reason WoW seems "less-complex" is because the work has already been done by so many people, you don't need to figure it out alone if you don't want to. FOTM builds, dungeon run through out the wazoo, you name it. 12 million ppl are putting in the work to figure it out. But end-game fights have always been about strat, and theyve included so many achievs that give a fun incentive to beat the encounters in unique ways. These things are only easy now because of the gear we are all wearing. we didnt have that before, and we wont have it again soon when cata hits.
eve, a LOT less ppl play, a lot less ppl are hard at work laying out the exact science of the game, but it's still there, and just as easy to find and follow as wow, or just as hard if you choose to ignore the forum advice and go it alone.
IMO both games are as complex as the next. Which is to say hardly at all.
"a whole made up of complicated or interrelated parts"
if you find either game complicated, I won't take that away from you. I don't. Not when I can simply google either game and get it mapped out for me right from the start. And even when they weren't so played out, it was still always kind of easy.
Comments
And people like me? We just stop paying for such a retarded game and go play something like Eve. Overcoming challenge = great fun. But sadly WoW is now 100% without risk. I had to laugh actually - the very last PUG I went on in WoW was a wipe. No big deal - 60 seconds run back, maybe another 30 seconds healing, drinking and buffing. But people are bitching and whinging like crazy because of one tiny setback. I was laughing my arse off at the thought of these children in a game like Eve where there are real risks and rewards. I didn't bother renewing my WoW sub and have been happily playing MMOs that reward risk taking ever since.
I have to wonder if WoW players even know what real fun is any more. I think most probably don't. They're so scared of taking any risks or doing anything difficult, that they settle for boring and easy activities, and those without any risk, and they convince themselves that is real fun. Uh... no. It's not. It's a yawnfest *shakes head*
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
where does it say that a MMO stands for forced grouping?
MMO is just a game on a server with lots of ppl on it.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
.................you think those are more complex games? oh lord.
HARDLY. Yeah I'v played them all extensively, the only one that might even count if EVE - and not even that game - it's just a longer character building process.
Your agrument is 100% fail.
I have to wonder how someone can think so highly of themselves? Ego much?
Quit equating risk and difficult with a VIDEO GAME, if you are really finding any game difficult you need to beef up your RL life a bit jimmy.
and while yu're at it, quit thinking you are the mastermind of the universe for choosing one game over another. They aren't that different. seriously. what a joke
no one has spent their whole lives doing anything in WoW. Unless they are 5 years old.
Yeah getting into a fight then hitting 1, 2, 3 , 1 , 1 is way too hard, I just need one button
Ah...you missed the qualifier. "...........you think those are more complex games than WoW?...."
Actually, yes...more so than WoW. Doesn't mean those games are particularly complex...just more so than WoW. WoW has gotten so simplified that my wife was able to out-dps most people of equal gear using just 2 keys with her mage (she got so frustrated with how easy everything had become, and with Wrath sheeping was no longer needed, she gave it go and found that wonderful surprise). Sadly, even my tween daughter has gotten bored with WoW because it offers no challenge to her, and she is even getting sick of the massive number of kiddies whining about any little thing that may be a challenge or go wrong.
As for the currency changes, I'm not particularly surprised. With Ghostcrawler at the helm, WoW is being aimed at overall simplification largely at younger and younger children who Blizzard found actually has a surprisingly good supply of money to spend on not just the WoW subscription, but all of their other extras (cards, action figures, etc).
While WoW has gotten easier for the masses, it also offers hard modes and PvP. You can't sit around and hit 2 buttons in either situation.
Here's my list for complexity out of those games overall:
EVE
DDO
5-Way tie: WoW, Age of Conan, DDO , LOTRO, Vanguard
Fallen Earth - Strangly, in my opinion this is the simplest of them all with almost nothing to do at endgame mixed with FPS style combat. Everyone can craft everything. The builds tend to be too much alike in my opinion. (Melee, Ranged, etc.) I always had the feeling of being the same as everyone else with nothing to do.
Oh, and about the topic - Great change. Old, leftover badges was a sloppy game design choice in the first place.
I see the trolls are out strong today.
You missed the part where you can spend those points? If you hit the 'cap' spend a few points and you're no longer capped.
Shadus
Of all the games you listed - EvE is by far the least complicated in so far as combat is concerned. EvE's complexity comes from the shear amount of inter-connected-required skills training(to become good at something - say mining, or combat) and the UI requires some learning. Other than that, EvE is not complicated at all. Please...I play EvE. I am so tired of people saying how hard it is. The fun in EvE comes from micro-managing. If you love to micro-manage, than EvE is a good game to get into.
Ok... cool, go play another game, you're supposed to play what you enjoy end of story. Speaking of child like attitudes the whole "I'm taking my toys and leaving argument" can be left behind once you're of reasonable maturity level. Secondly, what does simplification of a horrible monetary mechanic that was broken in the first place have to do with overcoming challenges? If it's more of a challenge to deal with the system than kill the bosses, it's time for the system to be fixed.
I'm sure they don't, because only you know what fun is and you dictate what fun is for every other player of every game no matter what style of games they enjoy.......... /facepalm.
Like I said, players play, whiners whine. More play, less whine. I personally haven't played wow in over a year, but it wasn't a bad game, I've just done all I care to do in it. Ditto on eq2, uo, daoc, swg, ao, and eq1 at some point.
Lots of us have played eve and just found it boring as hell, playing a particular game or not playing a game does not make you superior to another person nor is it intrinsically better or worse or more or less fun. Different people find different things fun.
Shadus
or dwarf fortress. (O_O)
Shadus
You seem to have a rather odd definition of "complex" then. EVE has one of the steepest learning curves there is for on line games. Its also rather deep and complex. I'm long past amused by those who turn up their nose at WoW. Blizzard must be doing something right(many somethings in fact...) to keep their subscriber numbers up in a game thats nearly 6 years old.
do I? sorry, didn't realize I had posted my definition of the word - which by the way is the same one miriam-webester has stuck in their book.
See, the only reason WoW seems "less-complex" is because the work has already been done by so many people, you don't need to figure it out alone if you don't want to. FOTM builds, dungeon run through out the wazoo, you name it. 12 million ppl are putting in the work to figure it out. But end-game fights have always been about strat, and theyve included so many achievs that give a fun incentive to beat the encounters in unique ways. These things are only easy now because of the gear we are all wearing. we didnt have that before, and we wont have it again soon when cata hits.
eve, a LOT less ppl play, a lot less ppl are hard at work laying out the exact science of the game, but it's still there, and just as easy to find and follow as wow, or just as hard if you choose to ignore the forum advice and go it alone.
IMO both games are as complex as the next. Which is to say hardly at all.
"a whole made up of complicated or interrelated parts"
if you find either game complicated, I won't take that away from you. I don't. Not when I can simply google either game and get it mapped out for me right from the start. And even when they weren't so played out, it was still always kind of easy.