First, thanks for fixing it so I didn't have to, everything was red. Secondly, there is no healer build in TOR, there are only support abilities that heal. That means on top of whatever you have for your healer, you have crowd control, force powers, and other such things, whether you only use the healing abilities or not is up to you. Go back and watch the Gamescom and PAX interviews, they tell you that the consular that was healing is NOT a healer class, and that it was only using healing abilities because the character was the camera. Go back and actually watch the consular gameplay and look at the abilities used :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8gkfdUerpw Notice anything interesting? Look how many abilities are on the bar, and how many abilities they are using that actually heal. Look at the other abilities the consular uses in that video that do attack damage or something else. Notice also how 70% of the time, the consular is just standing there moving the camera around.
That Consular was level 10. How many healing abilities does a Shaman in WoW have at level 10?
I'll respond to your other post with a video where the devs explicitly talk about healers....
Oh wait, you have a video right there where they explicitly talk about damage dealers, tanks, and healers!
Do you need me to bring up the one where they explicitly say a Consular can be a normal MMO healer? Maybe you don't remember were they went over that. It was maybe 6 months ago or more.
Do you need me to bring up the videos where they talk about how a Jedi Knight can go tanking or dps? That's a bit more recent.
Do you need to be reminded of the recent Light Side video where they talking about Healing-specced Consulars?
Do I need to get the interview where they said that if you don't go into an instance with a palyer healer, then IF all of your companions are made into healers you probably will be ok (and that a player healer is a better choice)?
This game totally has the Trinity in it. I'm really upset about it. I hate the Trinity. Thems the breaks though.
Then I guess the only thing you can do is wait like everyone else to find out what the classes turn out like. Do you want me to post quote after quote from various developers that say there is no dedicated healer class? What so 4 advanced classes get 3 or 4 healing abilities? Maybe more? That makes this game based around the trinity? So that would mean that if guild wars has 3 or 4 abilities that heal for a particular class, they ALSO use the trinity,. right? Guess so.
Do you also want me to show you in most of those very same videos that they say healers are not necessary? Kinda debunks the whole "trinity" part of it when you don't need specific classes of the trinity to do the content.
While i am more for SWtor than GW2 you are fooling yoruself if you don't think this game is based on trinity. Everything they say points to it being a trinity game. To me that is a good thing for swtor and a bad thing for GW2 for others it is the opposite way. I like trinity becasue i have not seen another mechanic work in a mmo. So until one succedes I will stick to trinity over no trinity.
And which classes are the healing classes? Every class has self heal abilities, every class has companions that can heal. there is no dedicated healing class. Its been said countless times by developers, and the videos seen of the "healers" healing are not indicative of what that class can do. Needless to say we have yet to see very much high level combat to see if the end result is a healing class, but all I can go on is what BioWare has stated, and they stated: NO dedicated healing class. Likewise with GW2, yet there seems to be healing in that too.
I think both games will do good IF they dont over hype and just deliver a good game,with some freshNESs to them.
I have played SWT,suck that all I can say. but from the info they/BWA has released its very promising with the Storyline/Multiple choices you can make threw out quests,just like kotor,withc i think is fantastic. GW2 looks amazing too,aspecially some of the combat vid I have seen. Hell I just mite have to buy both. A
all in all . as long as they are fresh AND fun thats all I care about.
I don't see why everyone is freaking out about the trinity system being in SWTOR. I don't believe there have been a lot of successful MMO's that haven't used it. It just works. It basically calls for teamwork.
It's stale. It's old. It requires gimmicks in every group encounter to be at all interesting (often leading to heavily choreographed encounters). It is unrealistic. It isn't iconic for Star Wars. It initially was just a hack because they couldn't do collision detection easily. I could go on...
I really really really hope you're not playing any FPS, RTS, and just about any other game genre out there. Because your argument is false.
Err, no FPS, RTS, and only one non-MMO RPG (Dragon Age) uses Holy Trinity combat.
Are you going to tell me real life is Holy Trinity now too? LOL.
You missed my point. You complain about the trinity being old but if you play any other games you'll relize the base gameplay of say, a fps has not changed much.
Then I guess the only thing you can do is wait like everyone else to find out what the classes turn out like. Do you want me to post quote after quote from various developers that say there is no dedicated healer class? What so 4 advanced classes get 3 or 4 healing abilities? Maybe more? That makes this game based around the trinity? So that would mean that if guild wars has 3 or 4 abilities that heal for a particular class, they ALSO use the trinity,. right? Guess so.
Do you also want me to show you in most of those very same videos that they say healers are not necessary? Kinda debunks the whole "trinity" part of it when you don't need specific classes of the trinity to do the content.
"No dedicated healer class" is not the same as "no dedicated healer spec." The former doesn't exist, the latter does. WoW doesn't have a dedicated healer class either (Priests are closest, but they have a DPS spec).
Seriously, every time they talk about group combat it is always covered with trinity mechanics. Same when they talk about how you spec your character.
Find me one instance this year where they've said healers aren't necessary. And if that's part of a quote where they've said that "you can have companions instead of a player healer" then that's NOT saying healers are unnecessary. Once they've actually started talking about group mechanics, they've stuck solidly to Trinity terminology. The old stuff was always full of "maybes" and "possibly" and "might" with a few "with difficulty"'s thrown in.
On the other hand they've never talked about hybrid specs or how'd they work. They only talk about Trinity specs. Force Wizards can spec to heal or range DPS. Shadows are melee DPS. Jedi Knights can become melee DPS or tanks. That's all they talk about with speccing. They don't say "here's a Consular who's specced as a healer/dps hybrid and here's how that works". They've never even said that's POSSIBLE to do AND BE VIABLE.
Wow, thats like saying "Show me where they said if you spec healing abilities thats all you can do to be viable". A complete joke. You supplement healing for something else, thats the entire point. If you don't have a healer, like say, you are in a group with 3 bounty hunters, you can spec healing companions, or heal yourself. its the point of supplementing one thing for another. Its the same thing in GW2, you supplement healing for a defense ability that can block this attack or that. You can spec healing abilities in GW2, but that makes it *not* based on the trinity?
What you are saying is, if I spec for healing abilities, then my class becomes a solid healer, nothing else, I say, thats not what we've seen nor COULD we see from whats been shown, and from whats been shown and said, its been the opposite.
You may need the ability to heal, but they've said you don't need a dedicated healer. Likewise with a tank. You don't need a dedicated tank if you can supplement that using companions or can out DPS. I think the idea of the trinity is being taken too far out of context with what each player can do for themselves.
And which classes are the healing classes? Every class has self heal abilities, every class has companions that can heal. there is no dedicated healing class. Its been said countless times by developers, and the videos seen of the "healers" healing are not indicative of what that class can do. Needless to say we have yet to see very much high level combat to see if the end result is a healing class, but all I can go on is what BioWare has stated, and they stated: NO dedicated healing class. Likewise with GW2, yet there seems to be healing in that too.
The healing abilities every class has? Only usable OUTSIDE of combat.
Smugglers, Jedi Consulars, Imperial Agents, and Sith Inquisitors are the only classes with heals that work in combat. They all have an Advanced Class with a Tree devoted to healing.
I'm sorry, dude, it totally sucks. : (
I was thinking/hoping it wouldn't be a hard core trinity game just last week. Then more videos come out and information on how stats work pop up and that just made the preponderance of evidence too great.
I don't see why everyone is freaking out about the trinity system being in SWTOR. I don't believe there have been a lot of successful MMO's that haven't used it. It just works. It basically calls for teamwork.
It's stale. It's old. It requires gimmicks in every group encounter to be at all interesting (often leading to heavily choreographed encounters). It is unrealistic. It isn't iconic for Star Wars. It initially was just a hack because they couldn't do collision detection easily. I could go on...
I really really really hope you're not playing any FPS, RTS, and just about any other game genre out there. Because your argument is false.
Err, no FPS, RTS, and only one non-MMO RPG (Dragon Age) uses Holy Trinity combat.
Are you going to tell me real life is Holy Trinity now too? LOL.
You missed my point. You complain about the trinity being old but if you play any other games you'll relize the base gameplay of say, a fps has not changed much.
Look at the first 10 years of FPS's and you realize it has changed quite a bit as technology advanced.
In contrast, MMOs haven't changed much in base combat mechanics since EQ. It IS old and out of date. There just hasn't been much innovation in the genre since most MMO makers have rushed crap out the door and hence failed. Hence innovative ideas generally have died not because they were bad, but because of the stupid rush. That's also why WoW is doing so well; no decent competition.
First, thanks for fixing it so I didn't have to, everything was red. Secondly, there is no healer build in TOR, there are only support abilities that heal. That means on top of whatever you have for your healer, you have crowd control, force powers, and other such things, whether you only use the healing abilities or not is up to you. Go back and watch the Gamescom and PAX interviews, they tell you that the consular that was healing is NOT a healer class, and that it was only using healing abilities because the character was the camera. Go back and actually watch the consular gameplay and look at the abilities used :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8gkfdUerpw Notice anything interesting? Look how many abilities are on the bar, and how many abilities they are using that actually heal. Look at the other abilities the consular uses in that video that do attack damage or something else. Notice also how 70% of the time, the consular is just standing there moving the camera around.
That Consular was level 10. How many healing abilities does a Shaman in WoW have at level 10?
I'll respond to your other post with a video where the devs explicitly talk about healers....
Oh wait, you have a video right there where they explicitly talk about damage dealers, tanks, and healers!
Do you need me to bring up the one where they explicitly say a Consular can be a normal MMO healer? Maybe you don't remember were they went over that. It was maybe 6 months ago or more.
Do you need me to bring up the videos where they talk about how a Jedi Knight can go tanking or dps? That's a bit more recent.
Do you need to be reminded of the recent Light Side video where they talking about Healing-specced Consulars?
Do I need to get the interview where they said that if you don't go into an instance with a palyer healer, then IF all of your companions are made into healers you probably will be ok (and that a player healer is a better choice)?
This game totally has the Trinity in it. I'm really upset about it. I hate the Trinity. Thems the breaks though.
Then I guess the only thing you can do is wait like everyone else to find out what the classes turn out like. Do you want me to post quote after quote from various developers that say there is no dedicated healer class? What so 4 advanced classes get 3 or 4 healing abilities? Maybe more? That makes this game based around the trinity? So that would mean that if guild wars has 3 or 4 abilities that heal for a particular class, they ALSO use the trinity,. right? Guess so.
Do you also want me to show you in most of those very same videos that they say healers are not necessary? Kinda debunks the whole "trinity" part of it when you don't need specific classes of the trinity to do the content.
While i am more for SWtor than GW2 you are fooling yoruself if you don't think this game is based on trinity. Everything they say points to it being a trinity game. To me that is a good thing for swtor and a bad thing for GW2 for others it is the opposite way. I like trinity becasue i have not seen another mechanic work in a mmo. So until one succedes I will stick to trinity over no trinity.
And which classes are the healing classes? Every class has self heal abilities, every class has companions that can heal. there is no dedicated healing class. Its been said countless times by developers, and the videos seen of the "healers" healing are not indicative of what that class can do. Needless to say we have yet to see very much high level combat to see if the end result is a healing class, but all I can go on is what BioWare has stated, and they stated: NO dedicated healing class. Likewise with GW2, yet there seems to be healing in that too.
lol umm the jedi wizard and the sith sorcerer are the main healers and the smuggler and IA have healing specs also. Like i said I'm glad they are using the trinity i would shy away from the game if they were not. Because i have not seen any mmo that is fun for me that dosen't use this system. I have not played a game that doesn't use this system have as fun a strategy on hard bosses as this.
Though i agree with you there is healing in both games and I see GW2 ending up with dedicated healing classes too.
And which classes are the healing classes? Every class has self heal abilities, every class has companions that can heal. there is no dedicated healing class. Its been said countless times by developers, and the videos seen of the "healers" healing are not indicative of what that class can do. Needless to say we have yet to see very much high level combat to see if the end result is a healing class, but all I can go on is what BioWare has stated, and they stated: NO dedicated healing class. Likewise with GW2, yet there seems to be healing in that too.
The healing abilities every class has? Only usable OUTSIDE of combat.
Smugglers, Jedi Consulars, Imperial Agents, and Sith Inquisitors are the only classes with heals that work in combat. They all have an Advanced Class with a Tree devoted to healing.
I'm sorry, dude, it totally sucks. : (
I was thinking/hoping it wouldn't be a hard core trinity game just last week. Then more videos come out and information on how stats work pop up and that just made the preponderance of evidence too great.
If it were a trinity system, that wouldn't "suck", but again, healing is supplemented in other ways. Healing outside of combat could be one of those ways, companions, another, players, another, and who knows if items may also be available. Its too early to tell, but in this scope of healing abilities = healing classes, I think just about every game could be considered a "trinity" system in that regard.
And which classes are the healing classes? Every class has self heal abilities, every class has companions that can heal. there is no dedicated healing class. Its been said countless times by developers, and the videos seen of the "healers" healing are not indicative of what that class can do. Needless to say we have yet to see very much high level combat to see if the end result is a healing class, but all I can go on is what BioWare has stated, and they stated: NO dedicated healing class. Likewise with GW2, yet there seems to be healing in that too.
The healing abilities every class has? Only usable OUTSIDE of combat.
Smugglers, Jedi Consulars, Imperial Agents, and Sith Inquisitors are the only classes with heals that work in combat. They all have an Advanced Class with a Tree devoted to healing.
I'm sorry, dude, it totally sucks. : (
I was thinking/hoping it wouldn't be a hard core trinity game just last week. Then more videos come out and information on how stats work pop up and that just made the preponderance of evidence too great.
If it were a trinity system, that wouldn't "suck", but again, healing is supplemented in other ways. Healing outside of combat could be one of those ways, companions, another, players, another, and who knows if items may also be available. Its too early to tell, but in this scope of healing abilities = healing classes, I think just about every game could be considered a "trinity" system in that regard.
It is not just about healing they have shown over and over that the Trooper needs to hold aggro. Where GW2 has stated there will be no taunt in the game.
And yes every game that has a player that can heal another player to me makes it a trinity.
If it were a trinity system, that wouldn't "suck", but again, healing is supplemented in other ways. Healing outside of combat could be one of those ways, companions, another, players, another, and who knows if items may also be available. Its too early to tell, but in this scope of healing abilities = healing classes, I think just about every game could be considered a "trinity" system in that regard.
Warriors can heal outside of combat in WoW by eating. This isn't any different. Yeah, you can have a companion heal, but that doesn't change YOUR CLASS or its role. Companions are just like mini-characters (one fourth the size).
Healing others is regulated to a few classes. Those few classes have specs that focus JUST on healing. The Devs talk about how you should have a healer in group combat (as well as two dps and a tank).
First, thanks for fixing it so I didn't have to, everything was red. Secondly, there is no healer build in TOR, there are only support abilities that heal. That means on top of whatever you have for your healer, you have crowd control, force powers, and other such things, whether you only use the healing abilities or not is up to you. Go back and watch the Gamescom and PAX interviews, they tell you that the consular that was healing is NOT a healer class, and that it was only using healing abilities because the character was the camera. Go back and actually watch the consular gameplay and look at the abilities used :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8gkfdUerpw Notice anything interesting? Look how many abilities are on the bar, and how many abilities they are using that actually heal. Look at the other abilities the consular uses in that video that do attack damage or something else. Notice also how 70% of the time, the consular is just standing there moving the camera around.
That Consular was level 10. How many healing abilities does a Shaman in WoW have at level 10?
I'll respond to your other post with a video where the devs explicitly talk about healers....
Oh wait, you have a video right there where they explicitly talk about damage dealers, tanks, and healers!
Do you need me to bring up the one where they explicitly say a Consular can be a normal MMO healer? Maybe you don't remember were they went over that. It was maybe 6 months ago or more.
Do you need me to bring up the videos where they talk about how a Jedi Knight can go tanking or dps? That's a bit more recent.
Do you need to be reminded of the recent Light Side video where they talking about Healing-specced Consulars?
Do I need to get the interview where they said that if you don't go into an instance with a palyer healer, then IF all of your companions are made into healers you probably will be ok (and that a player healer is a better choice)?
This game totally has the Trinity in it. I'm really upset about it. I hate the Trinity. Thems the breaks though.
Then I guess the only thing you can do is wait like everyone else to find out what the classes turn out like. Do you want me to post quote after quote from various developers that say there is no dedicated healer class? What so 4 advanced classes get 3 or 4 healing abilities? Maybe more? That makes this game based around the trinity? So that would mean that if guild wars has 3 or 4 abilities that heal for a particular class, they ALSO use the trinity,. right? Guess so.
Do you also want me to show you in most of those very same videos that they say healers are not necessary? Kinda debunks the whole "trinity" part of it when you don't need specific classes of the trinity to do the content.
While i am more for SWtor than GW2 you are fooling yoruself if you don't think this game is based on trinity. Everything they say points to it being a trinity game. To me that is a good thing for swtor and a bad thing for GW2 for others it is the opposite way. I like trinity becasue i have not seen another mechanic work in a mmo. So until one succedes I will stick to trinity over no trinity.
And which classes are the healing classes? Every class has self heal abilities, every class has companions that can heal. there is no dedicated healing class. Its been said countless times by developers, and the videos seen of the "healers" healing are not indicative of what that class can do. Needless to say we have yet to see very much high level combat to see if the end result is a healing class, but all I can go on is what BioWare has stated, and they stated: NO dedicated healing class. Likewise with GW2, yet there seems to be healing in that too.
lol umm the jedi wizard and the sith sorcerer are the main healers and the smuggler and IA have healing specs also. Like i said I'm glad they are using the trinity i would shy away from the game if they were not. Because i have not seen any mmo that is fun for me that dosen't use this system. I have not played a game that doesn't use this system have as fun a strategy on hard bosses as this.
Though i agree with you there is healing in both games and I see GW2 ending up with dedicated healing classes too.
So you are saying that the wizard and sorcerer are dedicated healing classes? The scoundrel also? You'd be incorrect. Again these classes have abilities to heal, they are not dedicated healing builds. The jedi Consulars Shadow class is a DPS class, the Wizard is a support class. It is not dedicated to healing, but it does have healing abilities in its subclass.
The Smugglers Gunslinger class is mostly DPS, using two blasters, the Scoundrel is a high powered single blaster user which has the ability to stealth and also has some healing abilities. I would not call either advanced class dedicated healers. Dedicated healers means they heal, and nothing else. Neither of those builds are spec'd in that way from what I can tell at this time. Each advanced class has other roles inside of it, not just healing.
If it were a trinity system, that wouldn't "suck", but again, healing is supplemented in other ways. Healing outside of combat could be one of those ways, companions, another, players, another, and who knows if items may also be available. Its too early to tell, but in this scope of healing abilities = healing classes, I think just about every game could be considered a "trinity" system in that regard.
Warriors can heal outside of combat in WoW by eating. This isn't any different. Yeah, you can have a companion heal, but that doesn't change YOUR CLASS or its role. Companions are just like mini-characters (one fourth the size).
Healing others is regulated to a few classes. Those few classes have specs that focus JUST on healing. The Devs talk about how you should have a healer in group combat (as well as two dps and a tank).
I'll have to get some information on that one from you. I've never seen a video that said the consular wizard, would only be a healer. I've seen many videos where they've spoken about not needing a healer and supplementing them in different ways. I've seen videos of DE saying the consulars do more in support then just heal. I've heard them also say there are no classes designed as healbots, never once have I heard them say that there is a specification that a class would be a healer only, and nothing else. Show me that please.
::EDIT::
To append to my point, as trilogy gameplay is concerned, again, I do not believe that classes with healing abilities automatically means the game caters to the trilogy, but as its about time for my movie to start I can't stay around and debate it, so I'll come to common ground here before I take my leave:
Yes, you can play these 4 advanced classes as healers. The game does not require there be healer classes but you can play a healer and complete the trinity if you want to. Likewise can be said for GW2. If the game has healing abilities for a particular class, you can also, spec healing abilities and use only them. In this aspect regardless of how the game is developed, there will always be a way to fulfill this type of gameplay. So, is the trinity in TOR? I suppose it is, much to my detriment. Can the trinity be in GW2? Yes it can, much to the dislike of others. Does it mean it has to be this way? No. Does it mean the combat will be poor? No. I still think both games will be very good.
I don't see why everyone is freaking out about the trinity system being in SWTOR. I don't believe there have been a lot of successful MMO's that haven't used it. It just works. It basically calls for teamwork.
It's stale. It's old. It requires gimmicks in every group encounter to be at all interesting (often leading to heavily choreographed encounters). It is unrealistic. It isn't iconic for Star Wars. It initially was just a hack because they couldn't do collision detection easily. I could go on...
I really really really hope you're not playing any FPS, RTS, and just about any other game genre out there. Because your argument is false.
Err, no FPS, RTS, and only one non-MMO RPG (Dragon Age) uses Holy Trinity combat.
Are you going to tell me real life is Holy Trinity now too? LOL.
You missed my point. You complain about the trinity being old but if you play any other games you'll relize the base gameplay of say, a fps has not changed much.
Look at the first 10 years of FPS's and you realize it has changed quite a bit as technology advanced.
In contrast, MMOs haven't changed much in base combat mechanics since EQ. It IS old and out of date. There just hasn't been much innovation in the genre since most MMO makers have rushed crap out the door and hence failed. Hence innovative ideas generally have died not because they were bad, but because of the stupid rush. That's also why WoW is doing so well; no decent competition.
After 30 years of games nothing is innovative just improved, GW2 DE system is not much more than a replacement for quest by using an improved version of WARs PQ system. I never played a game and said "Wow this is innovative." I said "wow this is fun." innovation does not exist in gaming media the way you're trying to make it sound.
I'll have to get some information on that one from you. I've never seen a video that said the consular wizard, would only be a healer. I've seen many videos where they've spoken about not needing a healer and supplementing them in different ways. I've seen videos of DE saying the consulars do more in support then just heal. I've heard them also say there are no classes designed as healbots, never once have I heard them say that there is a specification that a class would be a healer only, and nothing else. Show me that please.
Sure. First though, The Wizard has TWO talent trees. One is for healing and the other is for DPS/Control.
First, you can argue that WoW is much the same as what they've been saying. Priests in WoW do more than "just heal" as they have bubbles and such. It is possible a TOR healer will have some CC they use (which is used some in WoW as well). Nothing they've said has ever been against the idea of pure healers who have a few utility abilities or ways to prevent damage.
Near the end he talks about how if you are a long range consular (Wizard) you have more healing abilities. If you are specced as ranged DPS you could go get healing gear, healing companion and manage to do the job healing if the Pure Healers didn't show up.
I'll have to get some information on that one from you. I've never seen a video that said the consular wizard, would only be a healer. I've seen many videos where they've spoken about not needing a healer and supplementing them in different ways. I've seen videos of DE saying the consulars do more in support then just heal. I've heard them also say there are no classes designed as healbots, never once have I heard them say that there is a specification that a class would be a healer only, and nothing else. Show me that please.
Sure. First though, The Wizard has TWO talent trees. One is for healing and the other is for DPS/Control.
First, you can argue that WoW is much the same as what they've been saying. Priests in WoW do more than "just heal" as they have bubbles and such. It is possible a TOR healer will have some CC they use (which is used some in WoW as well). Nothing they've said has ever been against the idea of pure healers who have a few utility abilities or ways to prevent damage.
Near the end he talks about how if you are a long range consular (Wizard) you have more healing abilities. If you are specced as ranged DPS you could go get healing gear, healing companion and manage to do the job healing if the Pure Healers didn't show up.
In that interview the only roles for characters are dps, healing, or tanking (same with companions.
I can find more if you want.
"One of the big reasons we went for the advanced classes, and allowed people to take very different routes with each of the character classes, was to give a broader range than just the straight healer, tank." (different options within each advanced class for options to subclass but not always be dedicated, hence hybridization)
"What you didn't get to see were companion characters coming into the mix, and companion characters can be used to amplify or soften what role you're taking. So if you're going to play your tank guy, but you're going to bring your healing companion character, it is much, much different than going to play tank and bringing another tank with you." (implies supplementation that the trinity isn't needed)
"But, my class also has some healing skills, on friday night when no healers showed up, I'm going to lean more on my healing stuff, I'm going to gear myself up to really be the healer and I'm going to get my healing companion character, now I'm a medical unit." (supplementation, again, *and* he wasn't a healer before, but he has some healing skills. Cross building, meaning he doesn't have to just heal. Sounds more like a playstyle decision.
Obviously from the interviews DE likes to play healers, but he also says in the very same interviews that you can supplement healers with additional DPS, or companion characters. In fact, he said you could substitute companion characters and not need a healing build from a player at all:
"That would lead into a lot of dynamics in regards to what you are talking about.
Erickson: Absolutely. A lot of discussions of "hey, we thought we were going to have a group that stacked like this," but we didn't. Maybe we don't have our healer that night, so instead, "hey, why doesn't everybody grab their healing companion. And you know what? We are probably still going to be able to run this thing."
It all boils down to a playstyle choice, you don't *need* player healers, or player tanks. Likewise in GW2, yet as I said previously its player choice. If someone in GW2 wants to play a healer, looks like they'll be able to by relying on their healign abilities. If they want to in TOR, looks like they'll be able to subclass with healing abilities. In the end, the trinity will be there for those that need to use it in both games, I for one will be playing a smuggler as my starting character, and I will use some healing abilities to support my team, but I won't be a dedicated healer.
I'll have to get some information on that one from you. I've never seen a video that said the consular wizard, would only be a healer. I've seen many videos where they've spoken about not needing a healer and supplementing them in different ways. I've seen videos of DE saying the consulars do more in support then just heal. I've heard them also say there are no classes designed as healbots, never once have I heard them say that there is a specification that a class would be a healer only, and nothing else. Show me that please.
Sure. First though, The Wizard has TWO talent trees. One is for healing and the other is for DPS/Control.
First, you can argue that WoW is much the same as what they've been saying. Priests in WoW do more than "just heal" as they have bubbles and such. It is possible a TOR healer will have some CC they use (which is used some in WoW as well). Nothing they've said has ever been against the idea of pure healers who have a few utility abilities or ways to prevent damage.
Near the end he talks about how if you are a long range consular (Wizard) you have more healing abilities. If you are specced as ranged DPS you could go get healing gear, healing companion and manage to do the job healing if the Pure Healers didn't show up.
In that interview the only roles for characters are dps, healing, or tanking (same with companions.
I can find more if you want.
"One of the big reasons we went for the advanced classes, and allowed people to take very different routes with each of the character classes, was to give a broader range than just the straight healer, tank." (different options within each advanced class for options to subclass but not always be dedicated, hence hybridization)
It most definitely does not say you have options WITHIN an advanced class. They are talking about advanced classes offering the player OF A CLASS options. So, if you are Jedi Knight, you can choose to go tanking (guardian) or dps (sentinal). THEN you have an option within the advanced class you chose that modifies how you tank or dps (depending on which way you went). There's nothing that indicates hybridization there. I do understand how you read it that way, though.
"What you didn't get to see were companion characters coming into the mix, and companion characters can be used to amplify or soften what role you're taking. So if you're going to play your tank guy, but you're going to bring your healing companion character, it is much, much different than going to play tank and bringing another tank with you." (implies supplementation that the trinity isn't needed)
Doesn't imply the Trinity isn't needed at all. In fact, it implies your class is hard-line of one role (tank, healer, or dps). You can bring "more" than just that role ONLY in the sense of what your companion does. Maybe your companion doing stuff different than you makes it a soft trinity in your eyes, but it doesn't in mine. It certainly doesn't mean a hybrid CLASS build is possible at all. In fact, when they give full group examples, it is typically about filling in for a need because you don't have someone of the proper role there. That or they just don't talk about how what you are doing fits in with a group at all.
"But, my class also has some healing skills, on friday night when no healers showed up, I'm going to lean more on my healing stuff, I'm going to gear myself up to really be the healer and I'm going to get my healing companion character, now I'm a medical unit." (supplementation, again, *and* he wasn't a healer before, but he has some healing skills. Cross building, meaning he doesn't have to just heal. Sounds more like a playstyle decision.
He has some healer skills. He's no good at healing normally. He needs to go get special healing gear on (because he sucks at healing without it). He's then going to get a healing companion. TOGETHER this allows him to adequately heal in place of an actual healer. He is VERY clear that a pure healer would be better. This is a band-aid for someone not showing up. You can do this in WoW instances very often. An Elemental Shaman can manage to heal them, especially with gear dedicated to healing.
Obviously from the interviews DE likes to play healers, but he also says in the very same interviews that you can supplement healers with additional DPS, or companion characters. In fact, he said you could substitute companion characters and not need a healing build from a player at all:
"That would lead into a lot of dynamics in regards to what you are talking about.
Erickson: Absolutely. A lot of discussions of "hey, we thought we were going to have a group that stacked like this," but we didn't. Maybe we don't have our healer that night, so instead, "hey, why doesn't everybody grab their healing companion. And you know what? We are probably still going to be able to run this thing."
It all boils down to a playstyle choice, you don't *need* player healers, or player tanks. Likewise in GW2, yet as I said previously its player choice. If someone in GW2 wants to play a healer, looks like they'll be able to by relying on their healign abilities. If they want to in TOR, looks like they'll be able to subclass with healing abilities. In the end, the trinity will be there for those that need to use it in both games, I for one will be playing a smuggler as my starting character, and I will use some healing abilities to support my team, but I won't be a dedicated healer.
There's absolutely nothing there that says YOU aren't going to be playing a Healer, a DPS, or a Tank. There are some hacks you can do if you don't have the right person, but you are stuck firmly in Holy Trinity combat. In all cases, they are clear that the hacks are NOT as good as having a pure healer or whatever you are trying to replace. They even say that the non-healing Wizard isn't very good at healing without healing gear (hence he needs to go put some on).
I'll have to get some information on that one from you. I've never seen a video that said the consular wizard, would only be a healer. I've seen many videos where they've spoken about not needing a healer and supplementing them in different ways. I've seen videos of DE saying the consulars do more in support then just heal. I've heard them also say there are no classes designed as healbots, never once have I heard them say that there is a specification that a class would be a healer only, and nothing else. Show me that please.
Sure. First though, The Wizard has TWO talent trees. One is for healing and the other is for DPS/Control.
First, you can argue that WoW is much the same as what they've been saying. Priests in WoW do more than "just heal" as they have bubbles and such. It is possible a TOR healer will have some CC they use (which is used some in WoW as well). Nothing they've said has ever been against the idea of pure healers who have a few utility abilities or ways to prevent damage.
Near the end he talks about how if you are a long range consular (Wizard) you have more healing abilities. If you are specced as ranged DPS you could go get healing gear, healing companion and manage to do the job healing if the Pure Healers didn't show up.
In that interview the only roles for characters are dps, healing, or tanking (same with companions.
I can find more if you want.
"One of the big reasons we went for the advanced classes, and allowed people to take very different routes with each of the character classes, was to give a broader range than just the straight healer, tank." (different options within each advanced class for options to subclass but not always be dedicated, hence hybridization)
It most definitely does not say you have options WITHIN an advanced class. They are talking about advanced classes offering the player OF A CLASS options. So, if you are Jedi Knight, you can choose to go tanking (guardian) or dps (sentinal). THEN you have an option within the advanced class you chose that modifies how you tank or dps (depending on which way you went). There's nothing that indicates hybridization there. I do understand how you read it that way, though.
"What you didn't get to see were companion characters coming into the mix, and companion characters can be used to amplify or soften what role you're taking. So if you're going to play your tank guy, but you're going to bring your healing companion character, it is much, much different than going to play tank and bringing another tank with you." (implies supplementation that the trinity isn't needed)
Doesn't imply the Trinity isn't needed at all. In fact, it implies your class is hard-line of one role (tank, healer, or dps). You can bring "more" than just that role ONLY in the sense of what your companion does. Maybe your companion doing stuff different than you makes it a soft trinity in your eyes, but it doesn't in mine. It certainly doesn't mean a hybrid CLASS build is possible at all. In fact, when they give full group examples, it is typically about filling in for a need because you don't have someone of the proper role there. That or they just don't talk about how what you are doing fits in with a group at all.
"But, my class also has some healing skills, on friday night when no healers showed up, I'm going to lean more on my healing stuff, I'm going to gear myself up to really be the healer and I'm going to get my healing companion character, now I'm a medical unit." (supplementation, again, *and* he wasn't a healer before, but he has some healing skills. Cross building, meaning he doesn't have to just heal. Sounds more like a playstyle decision.
He has some healer skills. He's no good at healing normally. He needs to go get special healing gear on (because he sucks at healing without it). He's then going to get a healing companion. TOGETHER this allows him to adequately heal in place of an actual healer. He is VERY clear that a pure healer would be better. This is a band-aid for someone not showing up. You can do this in WoW instances very often. An Elemental Shaman can manage to heal them, especially with gear dedicated to healing.
Obviously from the interviews DE likes to play healers, but he also says in the very same interviews that you can supplement healers with additional DPS, or companion characters. In fact, he said you could substitute companion characters and not need a healing build from a player at all:
"That would lead into a lot of dynamics in regards to what you are talking about.
Erickson: Absolutely. A lot of discussions of "hey, we thought we were going to have a group that stacked like this," but we didn't. Maybe we don't have our healer that night, so instead, "hey, why doesn't everybody grab their healing companion. And you know what? We are probably still going to be able to run this thing."
It all boils down to a playstyle choice, you don't *need* player healers, or player tanks. Likewise in GW2, yet as I said previously its player choice. If someone in GW2 wants to play a healer, looks like they'll be able to by relying on their healign abilities. If they want to in TOR, looks like they'll be able to subclass with healing abilities. In the end, the trinity will be there for those that need to use it in both games, I for one will be playing a smuggler as my starting character, and I will use some healing abilities to support my team, but I won't be a dedicated healer.
There's absolutely nothing there that says YOU aren't going to be playing a Healer, a DPS, or a Tank. There are some hacks you can do if you don't have the right person, but you are stuck firmly in Holy Trinity combat. In all cases, they are clear that the hacks are NOT as good as having a pure healer or whatever you are trying to replace. They even say that the non-healing Wizard isn't very good at healing without healing gear (hence he needs to go put some on).
First, you don't know exactly how the advanced classes will work, or what paths you will be able to deviate in. There has been little information about late gameplay, and it definitely hasn't been seen in that depth. Before we can decide that. I would start by looking at the dissections provided on darth hater for whats available for each class as far as abilities that we know of, and see what the basic class provides before we deviate into advanced classes too much. If you can outline the advanced classes or have information otherwise I'd be willing to see that too.
Alternatively supplementation of items like healing is exactly the point. He can change to be a healer if he wants, or they can use healing companions instead. Games have healers, or ways to heal otherwise to make up for healing. In this instance, you have a number of choices if you don't have the ability to heal yourself, or take high amounts of damage, or put out enough DPS. You don't need players to do it. You'll be seeing the same things in GW2...... so, whether you want to believe healers will be necessary in TOR or not, it won't bother me, I'll play the game however is best for me and my class. DE said there were no cookie cutter healbot classes, but that doesn't mean people with healing abilities won't choose to be healbots. I just hope you won't be disappointed with GW2 seeing as how the same case could be made for Arenanet.
First, you don't know exactly how the advanced classes will work, or what paths you will be able to deviate in. There has been little information about late gameplay, and it definitely hasn't been seen in that depth. Before we can decide that. I would start by looking at the dissections provided on darth hater for whats available for each class as far as abilities that we know of, and see what the basic class provides before we deviate into advanced classes too much. If you can outline the advanced classes or have information otherwise I'd be willing to see that too.
Alternatively supplementation of items like healing is exactly the point. He can change to be a healer if he wants, or they can use healing companions instead. Games have healers, or ways to heal otherwise to make up for healing. In this instance, you have a number of choices if you don't have the ability to heal yourself, or take high amounts of damage, or put out enough DPS. You don't need players to do it. You'll be seeing the same things in GW2...... so, whether you want to believe healers will be necessary in TOR or not, it won't bother me, I'll play the game however is best for me and my class. DE said there were no cookie cutter healbot classes, but that doesn't mean people with healing abilities won't choose to be healbots. I just hope you won't be disappointed with GW2 seeing as how the same case could be made for Arenanet.
Healing Specs are the Healers. Like I said, you can come up with a hack job with another spec and/or companions, but there are healer roles. I'll go find the quote on the fact that there are traditional healers (that's like 9 months old or something, so I'll have to track it down).
In short, there ARE dedicated healer roles and specs to go with them, and content is balanced around you having such people for it is based on the Trinity dynamic (like in WoW). (If you insist on a comparison, this is something GW2 DOES NOT HAVE).
I mean, I've established there are healer roles, healer specs, healer gear, and an expectation that you need to have healers to do contend (but a hack can work with some difficult with all companions being healers or someone who isn't normally a healer having a full healer set and healing companion).
Do I need to do the same with DPS and Tanking?
Notice they NEVER talk about how there is gear for someone who is a hybrid or anything about hybrid roles. The last time they even hinted at such a thing was a year ago...I guess whatever they were thinking about didn't work out, because now it is all Trinity, Trinity, Trinity! You NEED a Healer (a substitute might work), you NEED a tank (they don't talk about subbing here), and you NEED people focused on DPS. No hybrids for serious content. No hint of it.
I know they haven't been really forthright about this. Frankly, it PISSES ME OFF. I thought hybrids were going to be viable and built into the game even a week ago. Then I found out about these quotes, the stat system, dedicated gear, dedicated talent trees, role this and role that, etc, etc, and I realized that no...that stuff they talked about last year? NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Personally I feel like they were deceptive to the point of lying when they talked about this sort of thing, and they still are being somewhat coy. If you look at their website, they don't mention any of this, despite quote after quote. Heck, I don't think the website even talks about the Trinity or anything like that. It's kinda crazy.
I love open world game play, as such the only real choice there for me was SW:TOR. I hated the instancing of GW, I hated Age of Clonan, I hated the instancing of zones in Champions Online. But I will say this, thank you GW2 devs for letting us know up front that your game is highly instanced, you saved me $60.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
except one thing if that nest never came back i would be all over GW2 but the fact that it will come back and the same DE will take place in the exact same area.
Ah but they wont just reappear, whatever made the nest will have to "move" back in and you can choose to stop it of let it happen and depending on that decision will decide the next DE in that and other areas of the world. That's just freakin cool. But what I really like is this, lets say you have 50 warrior char that have made the exact same choices in story have the same gear and are the same lvl all in one battle. There will be so many skills that they could all be doing different moves. If you don't believe it can be done understand that the first GW had 300 skills per class the day it came out and you could dual class that's 600 skills per character, that's a lot of possibility. oh and each peace of your gear will be dyeable in three areas with hundreds of colors to choose from. So all 50 would most likely look different. Tor has hundreds of story choices and thousands of voice overs and bio ware is an awesome company but they definitely have some major competition.
One last thing, someone mentioned budgets, GW sold 6'5 million copies and has sold a ton of optional content, also the three guys that started GW also started Blizzard , they designed diablo 1 and 2 , starcraft, warcraft 1, 2 and 3 and worked on wow for most of its original build. Dam, that makes me want to play GW2 even more. I loved all those games.
Many trinity games have pets so companions are not that strange. Hopefully are the companions here closer to the heroes you can have in GW with a good AI but many things sounds classic trinity to me.
The Companions are more like Heroes in GW, in SW:TOR you won't have to bring a healer or tank or cc but you can form up your group with the people you like to, and fill up the gap in disciplines with your team's Companions.
That sound like a break or alleviation of the trinity already to me, if you can team up and do quests or dungeons together, while your group could be like 3 dps and 1 tank, or 1 healer, 2 cc and 1 dps.
Besides, as I said I don't buy it that there will be only pure 1 specialisation classes where you can't mix up skills from several disciplines.
Originally posted by Drachasor
I know they haven't been really forthright about this. Frankly, it PISSES ME OFF. I thought hybrids were going to be viable and built into the game even a week ago. Then I found out about these quotes, the stat system, dedicated gear, dedicated talent trees, role this and role that, etc, etc, and I realized that no...that stuff they talked about last year? NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Personally I feel like they were deceptive to the point of lying when they talked about this sort of thing, and they still are being somewhat coy. If you look at their website, they don't mention any of this, despite quote after quote. Heck, I don't think the website even talks about the Trinity or anything like that. It's kinda crazy.
Listen, pal, if you want SO, SO HARD to believe that there will be no hybrids in SW:TOR, then go ahead. Frankly, I feel sorry for you if you dislike the trinity combat so much, there aren't many MMO's currently that don't use it in some form so there mustn't be any that you like to play. In fact, I would just skip SW:TOR too if I were you: because no matter what is being said and revealed, you've already made up your mind exactly how group combat will be in SW:TOR. If I was so rigidly stuck in my mind about it and I'd hate trinity combat, I would drop SW:TOR like right now and look elsewhere. Since I already know how it'll be and nothing will convince me of it being otherwise.
And hybrids not working in trinity endgame combat is complete BS, there are enough MMO's around that show otherwise.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I love open world game play, as such the only real choice there for me was SW:TOR. I hated the instancing of GW, I hated Age of Clonan, I hated the instancing of zones in Champions Online. But I will say this, thank you GW2 devs for letting us know up front that your game is highly instanced, you saved me $60.
Wtf are you talking about? GW one was highly instanced. GW2 is a fully persistent world where the world is actuality affected by your decisions . Is there taking and retaking of positions? Yea that's what happens in war. Are destroyed towns rebuilt? Yea that's what people do when there town is destroyed but they will need your help to push back the attackers so they can rebuild.
If the cows are killed you cant get milk or beef . if a vendor is captured you have to free him if you want what he has or stop the attacking enemy from taking him in the first place. A living world dude, not static npc's talking your head off. TOR is a go here and go there then come back and here is your reword game and Bioware will pwn in that style. But GW2 is a new style altogether, its go there and see what happens on the way and never come back if you don't want to just keep going . Its lets see what happens on that road or over that hill or down that other road. And it will be a big game map wise. Any way im of the camp that i will preorder GW2 and wait on TOR.
GW2 just sounds so good and looks it to. If it pans out it will be an epic game.
I love open world game play, as such the only real choice there for me was SW:TOR. I hated the instancing of GW, I hated Age of Clonan, I hated the instancing of zones in Champions Online. But I will say this, thank you GW2 devs for letting us know up front that your game is highly instanced, you saved me $60.
Wtf are you talking about? GW one was highly instanced. GW2 is a fully persistent world where the world is actuality affected by your decisions . Is there taking and retaking of positions? Yea that's what happens in war. Are destroyed towns rebuilt? Yea that's what people do when there town is destroyed but they will need your help to push back the attackers so they can rebuild.
If the cows are killed you cant get milk or beef . if a vendor is captured you have to free him if you want what he has or stop the attacking enemy from taking him in the first place. A living world dude, not static npc's talking your head off. TOR is a go here and go there then come back and here is your reword game and Bioware will pwn in that style. But GW2 is a new style altogether, its go there and see what happens on the way and never come back if you don't want to just keep going . Its lets see what happens on that road or over that hill or down that other road. And it will be a big game map wise. Any way im of the camp that i will preorder GW2 and wait on TOR.
GW2 just sounds so good and looks it to. If it pans out it will be an epic game.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say, I doubt GW2 will be that in-deep. Played the demo at pax of both games and I am going to laugh at the GW2 fans when the game does come out.
Not saying GW2 is not a fun game (because it is) its just not as good as half of you are making it out to be.
Comments
And which classes are the healing classes? Every class has self heal abilities, every class has companions that can heal. there is no dedicated healing class. Its been said countless times by developers, and the videos seen of the "healers" healing are not indicative of what that class can do. Needless to say we have yet to see very much high level combat to see if the end result is a healing class, but all I can go on is what BioWare has stated, and they stated: NO dedicated healing class. Likewise with GW2, yet there seems to be healing in that too.
HA HA! i was the 666 vote >.0 lol
I think both games will do good IF they dont over hype and just deliver a good game,with some freshNESs to them.
I have played SWT,suck that all I can say. but from the info they/BWA has released its very promising with the Storyline/Multiple choices you can make threw out quests,just like kotor,withc i think is fantastic. GW2 looks amazing too,aspecially some of the combat vid I have seen. Hell I just mite have to buy both. A
all in all . as long as they are fresh AND fun thats all I care about.
You missed my point. You complain about the trinity being old but if you play any other games you'll relize the base gameplay of say, a fps has not changed much.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Wow, thats like saying "Show me where they said if you spec healing abilities thats all you can do to be viable". A complete joke. You supplement healing for something else, thats the entire point. If you don't have a healer, like say, you are in a group with 3 bounty hunters, you can spec healing companions, or heal yourself. its the point of supplementing one thing for another. Its the same thing in GW2, you supplement healing for a defense ability that can block this attack or that. You can spec healing abilities in GW2, but that makes it *not* based on the trinity?
What you are saying is, if I spec for healing abilities, then my class becomes a solid healer, nothing else, I say, thats not what we've seen nor COULD we see from whats been shown, and from whats been shown and said, its been the opposite.
You may need the ability to heal, but they've said you don't need a dedicated healer. Likewise with a tank. You don't need a dedicated tank if you can supplement that using companions or can out DPS. I think the idea of the trinity is being taken too far out of context with what each player can do for themselves.
The healing abilities every class has? Only usable OUTSIDE of combat.
Smugglers, Jedi Consulars, Imperial Agents, and Sith Inquisitors are the only classes with heals that work in combat. They all have an Advanced Class with a Tree devoted to healing.
I'm sorry, dude, it totally sucks. : (
I was thinking/hoping it wouldn't be a hard core trinity game just last week. Then more videos come out and information on how stats work pop up and that just made the preponderance of evidence too great.
Look at the first 10 years of FPS's and you realize it has changed quite a bit as technology advanced.
In contrast, MMOs haven't changed much in base combat mechanics since EQ. It IS old and out of date. There just hasn't been much innovation in the genre since most MMO makers have rushed crap out the door and hence failed. Hence innovative ideas generally have died not because they were bad, but because of the stupid rush. That's also why WoW is doing so well; no decent competition.
lol umm the jedi wizard and the sith sorcerer are the main healers and the smuggler and IA have healing specs also. Like i said I'm glad they are using the trinity i would shy away from the game if they were not. Because i have not seen any mmo that is fun for me that dosen't use this system. I have not played a game that doesn't use this system have as fun a strategy on hard bosses as this.
Though i agree with you there is healing in both games and I see GW2 ending up with dedicated healing classes too.
If it were a trinity system, that wouldn't "suck", but again, healing is supplemented in other ways. Healing outside of combat could be one of those ways, companions, another, players, another, and who knows if items may also be available. Its too early to tell, but in this scope of healing abilities = healing classes, I think just about every game could be considered a "trinity" system in that regard.
It is not just about healing they have shown over and over that the Trooper needs to hold aggro. Where GW2 has stated there will be no taunt in the game.
And yes every game that has a player that can heal another player to me makes it a trinity.
But like i said I am more for swtor than GW2
Warriors can heal outside of combat in WoW by eating. This isn't any different. Yeah, you can have a companion heal, but that doesn't change YOUR CLASS or its role. Companions are just like mini-characters (one fourth the size).
Healing others is regulated to a few classes. Those few classes have specs that focus JUST on healing. The Devs talk about how you should have a healer in group combat (as well as two dps and a tank).
So you are saying that the wizard and sorcerer are dedicated healing classes? The scoundrel also? You'd be incorrect. Again these classes have abilities to heal, they are not dedicated healing builds. The jedi Consulars Shadow class is a DPS class, the Wizard is a support class. It is not dedicated to healing, but it does have healing abilities in its subclass.
The Smugglers Gunslinger class is mostly DPS, using two blasters, the Scoundrel is a high powered single blaster user which has the ability to stealth and also has some healing abilities. I would not call either advanced class dedicated healers. Dedicated healers means they heal, and nothing else. Neither of those builds are spec'd in that way from what I can tell at this time. Each advanced class has other roles inside of it, not just healing.
I'll have to get some information on that one from you. I've never seen a video that said the consular wizard, would only be a healer. I've seen many videos where they've spoken about not needing a healer and supplementing them in different ways. I've seen videos of DE saying the consulars do more in support then just heal. I've heard them also say there are no classes designed as healbots, never once have I heard them say that there is a specification that a class would be a healer only, and nothing else. Show me that please.
::EDIT::
To append to my point, as trilogy gameplay is concerned, again, I do not believe that classes with healing abilities automatically means the game caters to the trilogy, but as its about time for my movie to start I can't stay around and debate it, so I'll come to common ground here before I take my leave:
Yes, you can play these 4 advanced classes as healers. The game does not require there be healer classes but you can play a healer and complete the trinity if you want to. Likewise can be said for GW2. If the game has healing abilities for a particular class, you can also, spec healing abilities and use only them. In this aspect regardless of how the game is developed, there will always be a way to fulfill this type of gameplay. So, is the trinity in TOR? I suppose it is, much to my detriment. Can the trinity be in GW2? Yes it can, much to the dislike of others. Does it mean it has to be this way? No. Does it mean the combat will be poor? No. I still think both games will be very good.
After 30 years of games nothing is innovative just improved, GW2 DE system is not much more than a replacement for quest by using an improved version of WARs PQ system. I never played a game and said "Wow this is innovative." I said "wow this is fun." innovation does not exist in gaming media the way you're trying to make it sound.
The way I see it.
SWTOR=WoW but better.
GW2=WAR but better.
Take you're pick, I don't care which one.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Sure. First though, The Wizard has TWO talent trees. One is for healing and the other is for DPS/Control.
First, you can argue that WoW is much the same as what they've been saying. Priests in WoW do more than "just heal" as they have bubbles and such. It is possible a TOR healer will have some CC they use (which is used some in WoW as well). Nothing they've said has ever been against the idea of pure healers who have a few utility abilities or ways to prevent damage.
Near the end he talks about how if you are a long range consular (Wizard) you have more healing abilities. If you are specced as ranged DPS you could go get healing gear, healing companion and manage to do the job healing if the Pure Healers didn't show up.
http://darthhater.com/2010/06/16/e3-daniel-erickson-interview/
In that interview the only roles for characters are dps, healing, or tanking (same with companions.
I can find more if you want.
"One of the big reasons we went for the advanced classes, and allowed people to take very different routes with each of the character classes, was to give a broader range than just the straight healer, tank." (different options within each advanced class for options to subclass but not always be dedicated, hence hybridization)
"What you didn't get to see were companion characters coming into the mix, and companion characters can be used to amplify or soften what role you're taking. So if you're going to play your tank guy, but you're going to bring your healing companion character, it is much, much different than going to play tank and bringing another tank with you." (implies supplementation that the trinity isn't needed)
"But, my class also has some healing skills, on friday night when no healers showed up, I'm going to lean more on my healing stuff, I'm going to gear myself up to really be the healer and I'm going to get my healing companion character, now I'm a medical unit." (supplementation, again, *and* he wasn't a healer before, but he has some healing skills. Cross building, meaning he doesn't have to just heal. Sounds more like a playstyle decision.
Obviously from the interviews DE likes to play healers, but he also says in the very same interviews that you can supplement healers with additional DPS, or companion characters. In fact, he said you could substitute companion characters and not need a healing build from a player at all:
"That would lead into a lot of dynamics in regards to what you are talking about.
Erickson: Absolutely. A lot of discussions of "hey, we thought we were going to have a group that stacked like this," but we didn't. Maybe we don't have our healer that night, so instead, "hey, why doesn't everybody grab their healing companion. And you know what? We are probably still going to be able to run this thing."
It all boils down to a playstyle choice, you don't *need* player healers, or player tanks. Likewise in GW2, yet as I said previously its player choice. If someone in GW2 wants to play a healer, looks like they'll be able to by relying on their healign abilities. If they want to in TOR, looks like they'll be able to subclass with healing abilities. In the end, the trinity will be there for those that need to use it in both games, I for one will be playing a smuggler as my starting character, and I will use some healing abilities to support my team, but I won't be a dedicated healer.
There's absolutely nothing there that says YOU aren't going to be playing a Healer, a DPS, or a Tank. There are some hacks you can do if you don't have the right person, but you are stuck firmly in Holy Trinity combat. In all cases, they are clear that the hacks are NOT as good as having a pure healer or whatever you are trying to replace. They even say that the non-healing Wizard isn't very good at healing without healing gear (hence he needs to go put some on).
First, you don't know exactly how the advanced classes will work, or what paths you will be able to deviate in. There has been little information about late gameplay, and it definitely hasn't been seen in that depth. Before we can decide that. I would start by looking at the dissections provided on darth hater for whats available for each class as far as abilities that we know of, and see what the basic class provides before we deviate into advanced classes too much. If you can outline the advanced classes or have information otherwise I'd be willing to see that too.
Alternatively supplementation of items like healing is exactly the point. He can change to be a healer if he wants, or they can use healing companions instead. Games have healers, or ways to heal otherwise to make up for healing. In this instance, you have a number of choices if you don't have the ability to heal yourself, or take high amounts of damage, or put out enough DPS. You don't need players to do it. You'll be seeing the same things in GW2...... so, whether you want to believe healers will be necessary in TOR or not, it won't bother me, I'll play the game however is best for me and my class. DE said there were no cookie cutter healbot classes, but that doesn't mean people with healing abilities won't choose to be healbots. I just hope you won't be disappointed with GW2 seeing as how the same case could be made for Arenanet.
We got a brief glimpse of all the available advanced classes in a presentation prior to this interview (Editor’s Note: this interview took place before all the advanced classes and their details were common knowledge) and from what we could gather there is a lot of healing capable specialization spread across the advanced classes. Why have you chosen to do it this way.
James Ohlen: Because we don’t have a dedicated healing class, we wanted to make sure that a player would most likely get a healer in his group. We wanted to do this by giving the players choices when choosing a healing class, so we have the two Force using classes that can go into healing spec (Consular and Inquisitor) and the two non Force using classes (Imperial Agent and the Smuggler). Because you can choose not to spec into healing we wanted to make sure there are enough specs that have healing in them so that it wouldn’t be too hard to find a healer. Basically, four of the sixteen specs have healing, which means on average, in a party of four, one of the players can help with healing.
That was all the time we had for this interview. It was a wonderful experience and we hope to bring you many more of these in the future. We would also like to take this chance and thank Bioware and Lucas Arts staff that made this possible for us and of course thank Mr. Ohlen for putting up with us
.
Healing Specs are the Healers. Like I said, you can come up with a hack job with another spec and/or companions, but there are healer roles. I'll go find the quote on the fact that there are traditional healers (that's like 9 months old or something, so I'll have to track it down).
In short, there ARE dedicated healer roles and specs to go with them, and content is balanced around you having such people for it is based on the Trinity dynamic (like in WoW). (If you insist on a comparison, this is something GW2 DOES NOT HAVE).
I mean, I've established there are healer roles, healer specs, healer gear, and an expectation that you need to have healers to do contend (but a hack can work with some difficult with all companions being healers or someone who isn't normally a healer having a full healer set and healing companion).
Do I need to do the same with DPS and Tanking?
Notice they NEVER talk about how there is gear for someone who is a hybrid or anything about hybrid roles. The last time they even hinted at such a thing was a year ago...I guess whatever they were thinking about didn't work out, because now it is all Trinity, Trinity, Trinity! You NEED a Healer (a substitute might work), you NEED a tank (they don't talk about subbing here), and you NEED people focused on DPS. No hybrids for serious content. No hint of it.
I know they haven't been really forthright about this. Frankly, it PISSES ME OFF. I thought hybrids were going to be viable and built into the game even a week ago. Then I found out about these quotes, the stat system, dedicated gear, dedicated talent trees, role this and role that, etc, etc, and I realized that no...that stuff they talked about last year? NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Personally I feel like they were deceptive to the point of lying when they talked about this sort of thing, and they still are being somewhat coy. If you look at their website, they don't mention any of this, despite quote after quote. Heck, I don't think the website even talks about the Trinity or anything like that. It's kinda crazy.
oops
I love open world game play, as such the only real choice there for me was SW:TOR. I hated the instancing of GW, I hated Age of Clonan, I hated the instancing of zones in Champions Online. But I will say this, thank you GW2 devs for letting us know up front that your game is highly instanced, you saved me $60.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Ah but they wont just reappear, whatever made the nest will have to "move" back in and you can choose to stop it of let it happen and depending on that decision will decide the next DE in that and other areas of the world. That's just freakin cool. But what I really like is this, lets say you have 50 warrior char that have made the exact same choices in story have the same gear and are the same lvl all in one battle. There will be so many skills that they could all be doing different moves. If you don't believe it can be done understand that the first GW had 300 skills per class the day it came out and you could dual class that's 600 skills per character, that's a lot of possibility. oh and each peace of your gear will be dyeable in three areas with hundreds of colors to choose from. So all 50 would most likely look different. Tor has hundreds of story choices and thousands of voice overs and bio ware is an awesome company but they definitely have some major competition.
One last thing, someone mentioned budgets, GW sold 6'5 million copies and has sold a ton of optional content, also the three guys that started GW also started Blizzard , they designed diablo 1 and 2 , starcraft, warcraft 1, 2 and 3 and worked on wow for most of its original build. Dam, that makes me want to play GW2 even more. I loved all those games.
The Companions are more like Heroes in GW, in SW:TOR you won't have to bring a healer or tank or cc but you can form up your group with the people you like to, and fill up the gap in disciplines with your team's Companions.
That sound like a break or alleviation of the trinity already to me, if you can team up and do quests or dungeons together, while your group could be like 3 dps and 1 tank, or 1 healer, 2 cc and 1 dps.
Besides, as I said I don't buy it that there will be only pure 1 specialisation classes where you can't mix up skills from several disciplines.
Listen, pal, if you want SO, SO HARD to believe that there will be no hybrids in SW:TOR, then go ahead. Frankly, I feel sorry for you if you dislike the trinity combat so much, there aren't many MMO's currently that don't use it in some form so there mustn't be any that you like to play. In fact, I would just skip SW:TOR too if I were you: because no matter what is being said and revealed, you've already made up your mind exactly how group combat will be in SW:TOR. If I was so rigidly stuck in my mind about it and I'd hate trinity combat, I would drop SW:TOR like right now and look elsewhere. Since I already know how it'll be and nothing will convince me of it being otherwise.
And hybrids not working in trinity endgame combat is complete BS, there are enough MMO's around that show otherwise.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Wtf are you talking about? GW one was highly instanced. GW2 is a fully persistent world where the world is actuality affected by your decisions . Is there taking and retaking of positions? Yea that's what happens in war. Are destroyed towns rebuilt? Yea that's what people do when there town is destroyed but they will need your help to push back the attackers so they can rebuild.
If the cows are killed you cant get milk or beef . if a vendor is captured you have to free him if you want what he has or stop the attacking enemy from taking him in the first place. A living world dude, not static npc's talking your head off. TOR is a go here and go there then come back and here is your reword game and Bioware will pwn in that style. But GW2 is a new style altogether, its go there and see what happens on the way and never come back if you don't want to just keep going . Its lets see what happens on that road or over that hill or down that other road. And it will be a big game map wise. Any way im of the camp that i will preorder GW2 and wait on TOR.
GW2 just sounds so good and looks it to. If it pans out it will be an epic game.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say, I doubt GW2 will be that in-deep. Played the demo at pax of both games and I am going to laugh at the GW2 fans when the game does come out.
Not saying GW2 is not a fun game (because it is) its just not as good as half of you are making it out to be.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
TOR all the way.