The fact that this is a "story driven game" is by far the best feature. I mean come on FF7 was great why? Its story was deep and really amazing. I always thought the typical MMORPG was missing story. I never really felt apart of a MMORPG game.. I just felt like a game player. To have the story of an MMO in a MMORPG is huge step and im glad Bioware is making that step with a Star Wars Game.
Yep,not to mention you will have choices to make,that may/can effect the out come of a quest/missions you do.
Instead of having a quest that tells you to just go kill 10 Flaming Trolls,you mite have an option to make a treaty with them,befriend them,etc.. Needless to say it will be intresting to see how this plays out in an mmo. Honestly With the quest system they have EVEN with a story LINE with multiple options I just dont get peoples thinking that its going to be tunnel vision. but to each their own.
Holy crap, is it a slow news day in MMO land? You have an unreleased game which you know only a fraction of but you still feel the need to start spewing this? OK lets roll with it and just take it for granted that there WILL BE significant areas where the game will be limiting and very focused. SO WHAT? A single game can not be or do everything, just impossible. As a matter of fact games that try to do too much are more often then not complete failures.
Bottom line is that not every game is for everyone, this is the direction that Bioware is going with and I'm going to give them the benefit of a doubt until I can actually experience it first hand, then we the consumers will decide with our wallets.
Worst titled post ever. The post had nothing to do with the story aspect of the game at all. And here I was, reading the post, expecting to hear how cookie-cutter the content was or something. Retitle please
FYI...one reason why WOW is sooo popular is that there is a deep a rich lore attached to it...and in the game you experience it. Of course, it seems that SWTOR is taking it quite a few steps further, however, I do not see this as a problem, except that the end game might be a little tough to figure out if it is so dependent on a storyline...because well stories end eventually.
Currently Play: ? Occasionally Play: Champions, Pirates of the Burning Sea, WOW, EVE ONLINE
This article is the type of article I like to read. Someone giving his honest opinion/insight, with his arguments and references.
Regarding the content of what was written.
I think that this game will be the next huge flop. The gameplay sucks, no ammount of golden'ed linear scripted path will make up for it, not even if it was Blizzard interactive cinematic. It is a down step into the players freedom and ability to cause effects into the world and others.
They are trying to artificially increase the longevity of the game, with the same content, masking it with "cutscenes and voice over". The mechanics behind it wont be new, your character wont be unique, you wont cause effect into the world, everyone and their mothers will do the same things you do, get the same results, in the end nothing you did will make you a hero amongst the other players, because it was designed to be a "everyone is a hero"....
They will make you feel like your a playing a handcrafted scenario, and you will be immersed on it. Then after hours playing, you will see that you accomplished nothing, evolved nothing, changed nothing, just completed a measly % of the scripted content. And people who skip it, will see the game for what it is.
I like to watch the ammount of hype regarding this game, I like that they are "doing something new", even though I know its not the something new to do at this point. The something new to do at this point is dynamic events on open world and designs that empower players with freedom, meaningfull choices and effects into the world and others.
Spending resources designing something that is not organic, random, dynamic, and procedurally generated is stupid. We already know we can make living breathing worlds with todays technology and design. That what MMORPGs originally aimed for, thats the direction players want and crave for. Insisting into scripted, linear, scaled, limited, handcrafted content , forcing people to play the way you designed, evolve the way you designed, experience the game according to the developers own view, enforcing artificial design limitations for the sake of an ilusion of balance... doesnt satisfy anymore, its a dieing school of thought, it didnt last long and nowadays people dont tolerate it anymore.
The target audience is average 25 years old and growing old now. The mmo community have matured.
If you dont design that, you are wasting your time developer.
I agree with Interesting as he points out, "The mechanics behind it won't be new, your character won't be unique, [and] you won't cause effect into the world[...]"
Now granted, I have a biased opinion, but at least I admit that up front. I prefer sandboxes, and MMOs or other games wherein you have a plethora of options including how far apart your eyes are to what color that strip is on your shoes. What irritates me about SWTOR and specificaly the latest generation of MMOs is their enfatic adherance to story and what most people refer to as the themepark. Explain to me what is fun about killing the same monster you killed yesterday, the day before, and everyday of the last month? Equally so, what is so thrilling about an MMO that strips your creative and customization choices in lieu of "story"?
I uterlly despise MMOs that give cookie cutter options for character customization. Things such as a choice between five different head models, or five colors of the same shirt. It's bland, and YES, eventually you will run into someone who looks exactly like you. WOW, that's really epic and heroic isn't it? It really emphasizes your heroic persona doesn't it?
Moreover, why play a game (or class in this instance) that you will complete in several days or weeks, and afterwards your only option is to play it again? Granted you might make some different decisions, if you choose to sit through all the endless voice over and dialogue (which quite frankly irritates the piss out of me in Bioware games), but it will be the same exact quests and content all over again. And there are only six classes to work with. Sounds like a rip-off, especially with a $15 per month price tag.
I just think it's sad that some people choose to continue to believe that TOR is an MMO, when all the evidence just keeps lending credence to the fact that, at best, it's a CORPG (Co-Operative Role Playing Game). Simply an extended single-player gaming experience with a MMO wrapper.
In any event, happy-gaming with whatever you choose to play.
I agree with Interesting as he points out, "The mechanics behind it won't be new, your character won't be unique, [and] you won't cause effect into the world[...]"
Now granted, I have a biased opinion, but at least I admit that up front. I prefer sandboxes, and MMOs or other games wherein you have a plethora of options including how far apart your eyes are to what color that strip is on your shoes. What irritates me about SWTOR and specificaly the latest generation of MMOs is their enfatic adherance to story and what most people refer to as the themepark. Explain to me what is fun about killing the same monster you killed yesterday, the day before, and everyday of the last month? Equally so, what is so thrilling about an MMO that strips your creative and customization choices in lieu of "story"?
I uterlly despise MMOs that give cookie cutter options for character customization. Things such as a choice between five different head models, or five colors of the same shirt. It's bland, and YES, eventually you will run into someone who looks exactly like you. WOW, that's really epic and heroic isn't it? It really emphasizes your heroic persona doesn't it?
Moreover, why play a game (or class in this instance) that you will complete in several days or weeks, and afterwards your only option is to play it again? Granted you might make some different decisions, if you choose to sit through all the endless voice over and dialogue (which quite frankly irritates the piss out of me in Bioware games), but it will be the same exact quests and content all over again. And there are only six classes to work with. Sounds like a rip-off, especially with a $15 per month price tag.
I just think it's sad that some people choose to continue to believe that TOR is an MMO, when all the evidence just keeps lending credence to the fact that, at best, it's a CORPG (Co-Operative Role Playing Game). Simply an extended single-player gaming experience with a MMO wrapper.
In any event, happy-gaming with whatever you choose to play.
The only way to answer your misinterpretation of what this game offers is for the game to launch and you to get an actual account of whats in it. Lets just bypass that you will be able to do world quests that will change the world around you. :: We can also dismiss that this game will have all the end game features every other MMO has had, including open world PvP, arena PvP, RAIDS, exploration, Guilds, amongst other things. :: Lets bypass that just about every MMO from P2P to F2P thats come out after 2002 has given you a lot less choice then TOR will give you. BioWare gives people actual choices in their otherwise mundane quest options that other games give them and people are scorning them for it.
Plus the 8 classes split to 16 classes, each with extended skill sets for alignment (multiply 16 by 3) and then multiply that by the alternate options per advanced class pool, you have a wide range of builds.
As for TOR being an MMO, only people with absolutely no knowledge of the game still think this game is a single player game, or even a (cooperative) online game. This is the reason why articles like Mr. Bittons exist, to cater to those that don't have the knowledge of the games features, and can only make rash generlaizations based on their biased, uninformed views.
You don't like the game, don't like the game. If you don't like the game because its not an "MMO" lets get a clue and stop not liking things due to made up claims. If you don't like the space combat, don't like Star Wars, don't like the animations, there are plenty of reasons why people can say they don't want to play TOR, but making up things like the OP, and the post I quoted, on baseless facts, and unproven ideals is just ridiculous.
"The story problem", what a joke, the only story I see as a problem are the stories some of these "critics" come up with to discuss this game.
All of these complaints are selfish. Oh no, the game isn't going to play like every other MMO! GOOD! That is what I am most excited about. The reason I haven't stuck with an MMO for more than a couple months is because they all suck in the same way. They just aren't my thing, though I wish I could play an RPG with some friends or at least some other people. That's what MMOs are for, only they aren't the type of RPG I like. So, oh no, someone is giving those voices that are less heard in the MMO community a game they would like to play. Those monsters. Who do they think they are. After all, we only have one Star Wars game that is a traditional MMO.
If you want to Gold farm, waste time trying to put a group together for a 30 person raid, and don't want a story to slow you down from clicking your mouse button over a pig, then go play WOW, or 1 of the other 100 MMOs. Just leave us supporters and our (hopefully) refreshenly different MMO alone.
So what we have here Mike is a concern about storyline, story mode and storytelling as it relates to an MMO. Looking back at the KOTOR series and the Dragon Age Series.. Bioware has made plenty of street cred when it comes to making good to great RPG games. Bringing that to an MMO of course brings its own risks and rewards... but let's for argument's sake say your concerns turn out right and Bioware misses the mark on story vs gameplay... well, with Bioware's ability to make good games, I'd say "Ok" they missed a bit on that aspect.. yet I bet I would still end up staying a good while in TOR, if for no other reason than the fact that I have been wowed by Bioware's attention to detail and ability to craft a good game in its single player worlds and therefore they should be able to fix the problems found by the player base.. so TOR under your concerns becomes just an above average to good game.. fair enough.. again, I doubt that will keep me from playing..
But now let's take the other side: What happens if Bioware pulls most of what they want in the game off?? NOW comes the tidal wave... if they pull even 75% off of what they want, you will undoubtably have the new proverbial 800 lb gorilla in the room that WoW has become... if they pull this off, I believe you have an instant classic, instant Hall of Fame game right on your hard drive... this is the possible outcome too of the potential this game wields.. we shall see soon what the end result is, but my gut instinct tells me that your concerns Mike will quickly be a moot point once the game goes live....
Mmm...I dunno. Honestly if they're trying to make a game that sort of trudges you through the storyline, I think they're out of touch with their audience. The amount of people that read quest/story text versus though that do not is beyond comparison. Most people play games to actually like...play them. If they want a story, they read a book. It's shallow and kind of a shame, but it's true. So when most people find out they're only able to play the one race, they might find their desire to play compromised, even if the storyline is top notch.
Storyline is one of those things you enjoy, but don't always expect. At least, it is for me, and many gamers feel the same. Perhaps that just happened over time as we trudged through game after game that had fun mechanics but shoddy stories or worse, engrish translations; we just sort of got used to it and eventually stopped caring about the story altogether.
I happen to be a big fan of Guild Wars and am very much looking forward to Guild Wars 2. That said, while the story is great and I've enjoyed reading Ghosts of Ascalon, it is not the story that makes me want to play. Trying out the different racial skills, taking part in the events, getting gear, leveling up, etc....that's what makes me want to play. Unless the dialogue and story is presented cinematically, there's a good chance I'll be skipping the quest text in GW2, just like any other game.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I don't find negative the narrowed selection of starting avatars.If anything it only means company wants players to approach their avatars even more, and fill their role in a star wars environment.Don't forget for a starter , and even more for a non-star war fan, it would be tons of infos if he could choose a wookie or a twilek to learn their backround stories, their goals, habbits, languages etc.
If you recall , when WOW shipped most players chose a human avatar.Why?Because they found it more easy to learn the game's basics and then hop to a new race.Starters prefer a role that is somewhat familiar to them, then switch to a perhaps, more complex role, with strange habbits, backrounds and goals.
I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it --Voltaire
I don't find negative the narrowed selection of starting avatars.If anything it only means company wants players to approach their avatars even more, and fill their role in a star wars environment.Don't forget for a starter , and even more for a non-star war fan, it would be tons of infos if he could choose a wookie or a twilek to learn their backround stories, their goals, habbits, languages etc.
If you recall , when WOW shipped most players chose a human avatar.Why?Because they found it more easy to learn the game's basics and then hop to a new race.Starters prefer a role that is somewhat familiar to them, then switch to a perhaps, more complex role, with strange habbits, backrounds and goals.
That's not necessarily true. I remember at least on some servers that Horde were the dominant side when WoW first started, and Humans aren't horde. I know the race my friends and I first flocked to were nelfs, though we were all well-versed in the storyline by then due to the RTS games.
For most games, restricting race selection to humans is fine. If WoW tried to do that however, people would have raged, as well they should have. Star Wars is in the same boat, they have a HUGE selection of races. That is in fact, a huge part of the plot of the series be it movie or any number of the television spinoffs; how these various races coexist, or how they don't. There are many races making up every faction in the game, from everyday commoner to Jedi. It is a hugely diverse culture of aliens and humanoids existing and/or warring among each other. For that reason, restricting the game to human selection even if only at the beginning, is silly, especially for the sake of storyline.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
For most games, restricting race selection to humans is fine. If WoW tried to do that however, people would have raged, as well they should have. Star Wars is in the same boat, they have a HUGE selection of races. That is in fact, a huge part of the plot of the series be it movie or any number of the television spinoffs; how these various races coexist, or how they don't. There are many races making up every faction in the game, from everyday commoner to Jedi. It is a hugely diverse culture of aliens and humanoids existing and/or warring among each other. For that reason, restricting the game to human selection even if only at the beginning, is silly, especially for the sake of storyline.
Eh... but all the playable races in SWTOR aren't humans. They're humanoids. If they're humans, then elves, dark elves, dwarves, hobbits, klingons, vulcan, and all kinds of other races are humans too, and this would mean that race selection in a lot more MMO's would be restrictive too.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I dont see the issue. I've yet to see any MMO that lets you decide on what tree you want to continue on Quest wise... kill this person or dont.. save this person or dont. Letting saving someone lead to this path, killing someone lead to this path.
All current MMO's are str8 liner and you're lucky if your character actually "says" anything at all. Most game just use the NPC to "repeat ur thoughts" even though you your self never actually said a word. FFXIV is like this(that game is really just an asian grinder)
Another note, why buy or invest in a game like this if you dont want to immerse ur self in the story? Star War saga has always been about an indetph story of love hate betrayal and heroes. And you get to mix a living world into it.
Other then that, why so afraid of change? Or why would you want yet another cut-and-copy mmo with a diff skin thats just like all the rest.. I just dont get it personally. PPL saying remove the voices, remove the companion, remove the story... might as well play Quake or something and spend ur time running around shooting. SW:Jedi Academy has a nice Multiplayer combator. That or download an Asian Grinder and be happy having to kill 1trillion enemies a day for 1 level and finishing all the "Quest/Story" by the 20th or so level so you want have to worry about Quests anymore -shrug
As for race selection... meh, I guess all of the protags have been human after all but I'd love to pick a Zabrak as a character oh well.
In most mmorpg's that I've played around with lack a very good storyline, mostly the martial arts/korean mmo's, and some of the new one's lack more of an important storyline to cast your character around. This is why I don't like most of the MMO because of this.
What I recommand for a good storyline is do what most single player games tend to do if your making a linear storyline, or you can try to do what Lord of the Rings: Online tries to do but add in cutscenes, CGI, and other things that help drawns me and other people into the game. Also unlike most of the mmo, when they do cutscenes, they forgot about voice actor's and also the ability of my player to speak with a voice then plain text. This is what don't draw me into mmo is that most of the text is not in voice acting, instead just plain old boring text. If you want to make a storyline strong mmo, add in plenty of cutscenes, CGI, Voice acting and the ability for my player to also have it's own voice. Take an element of Saint's Row 2, Final Fantasy X, The Force Unleash and combine them into the genre of your choice.
I also like it when I am limited to access to other places until I complete a certain storyline element, like what Amnesia: The Dark Descent has done, they limit you access until you completed several ways to get access to a certain key materials to get out, then you noticed that the place that your in starts to turn.
I don't mind a story-driven MMO, but if they make it so it's too linear like most Bioware games are then I will wait for something else. Granted I love Star Wars but I have a feeling there are going to be alot of dissapointed people come release time.
I rarely if ever chime in on these reviews or thoughts, but this one screams "I WANT" , what it seems to me is every review, thought or idea that comes from this game someone as yourself stouts out a review or thought on it and it's always NEGATIVE. It's not swg, it's not pure customization of an MMO you are use to. There has been Nothing "NOTHING" that the bioware team hinted to saying it would be anything but KOTOR online based off the single player concept. If you go in with that idea, there is no new news here other then complaining it's not what "you" wanted. Big surprise, swg wasn't what we wanted, but dam you hear all the vets today swear it was before the changes.
Then in this , how does this produce a story problem? Your title should have been "I am pissed, I can't play my favorite race at launch!" That's all I read in this thought post. Sorry to kinda be rude here, but this article, comment, thought post is nothing but one sided "I want" talk. You sound like the other 10 year old in these forums. Sorry but I see nothing here professionally written, what I see is a guy who's feelings are hurt.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
even though I didn't bother to read all this. I did skim through it,
Story is the driving force behind this game, and probably one of the best parts about it. If you don't like story than maybe reconsider playing it?
I don't care about a single player sequal. This is a MMO game with an engaging story line. The difference in single player Kotor and MMO kotor is just the fact I cannot play with thousands of other people.
This is the perfect setting for this game and could be a risky experiment at trying to bring a quality MMO to the market.
Time to stop whining about it and start thanking bioware for taking these kinds of risks to bring you an enjoyable game, instead of half assed throwing something together and forgetting about story.
Single player, lead me by the nose, and instance it all isn't an MMO. While there may be thousands of people on your server. You won't be instancing with them so it doesn't really matter does it.
In most mmorpg's that I've played around with lack a very good storyline, mostly the martial arts/korean mmo's, and some of the new one's lack more of an important storyline to cast your character around. This is why I don't like most of the MMO because of this.
What I recommand for a good storyline is do what most single player games tend to do if your making a linear storyline, or you can try to do what Lord of the Rings: Online tries to do but add in cutscenes, CGI, and other things that help drawns me and other people into the game. Also unlike most of the mmo, when they do cutscenes, they forgot about voice actor's and also the ability of my player to speak with a voice then plain text. This is what don't draw me into mmo is that most of the text is not in voice acting, instead just plain old boring text. If you want to make a storyline strong mmo, add in plenty of cutscenes, CGI, Voice acting and the ability for my player to also have it's own voice. Take an element of Saint's Row 2, Final Fantasy X, The Force Unleash and combine them into the genre of your choice.
I also like it when I am limited to access to other places until I complete a certain storyline element, like what Amnesia: The Dark Descent has done, they limit you access until you completed several ways to get access to a certain key materials to get out, then you noticed that the place that your in starts to turn.
Sounds to me like you'd love Netflix or Blockbuster. They have movies are exactly like what you describe.
/agree the current trend to remove all choice and force every player to do the same thing as every other player really makes me worry about how dumb the younger generation is.
I can't really agree with this concept it sounds like a cop out to me, it's like saying you know what it means to be a Kel Dor, or a Human from Correlia but hey we got to tell you what being a wookie is all about. Most true fans of both KoToR and star wars know what it is about. You live in a honor based society of tree dwellers, your claws are never used in combat. Most of your kin are hunters, animal handelers, or warriors. You speak in growls, groans, and other sounds, and you live to be over four hundered years old if no one kills you.
It sounds to me more like they wanted to go with a stock set of faces and features then said okay thats good stop there. Transdocians, wookies, and the like would make them have to program more looks, armors, and options into the game and that was something they didn't want to do.
The idea of wait it will come in later is just BS, plain and simple. Why will I wait for an expansion to be what I want to be? All that means is suddenly I am starting a new character to level up to be my main guy after everyone else I know is already at end game doing end game stuff. Okay so they story driving the game might make it fun, but will it make it worth it? How will me playing the game, and then getting a tell from a friend who needs help be enjoyable. Becuase at that moment I'll have to log the character I want to be, to play the character I was playing simply as a place holder for my desired character.
I've been playing MMO's for a very, very long time, and the one thing that kills all of them is the sorry you can't factor. This is where a company implies a thing, then does not deliver it. This factor alone kills a game, and no ammount of companion characters will make SWToR into a star wars mmo for the people that want to play the game a certain way and can't. Which, with all the restrictions in how to play this game is a rather big deal. Want to play a soldier who is a melee fighter, aw sorry you can't. Want to play a wookie, sorry can't do that. Want to play any class on either side, sorry no can do.
Bioware needs to stop, think, and process that gamers live for can, not can't. Or in the words of Yoda, there is only do or do not there is no try. Do or Do Not make a star wars mmo, cause bioware, if your trying to make one your not being a jedi.
I don't mind a story-driven MMO, but if they make it so it's too linear like most Bioware games are then I will wait for something else.
A story is by definition linear. Sure, there might be choices you can make here and there but a story-driven MMO is always going to force you where they want you to go. Personally, I think story-driven MMOs like what Bioware is making are nothing more than glorified single player games. What's so fun about a bunch of people going through the same storylines together, doing exactly the same thing, wearing exactly the same quest (story) gear?
I just don't understand how such an incredible OP like Star Wars would be so carelessly given to a story-driven development team. And yes, I agree, there will be a LOT of disappointed people with this one.
/boggle
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I don't mind a story-driven MMO, but if they make it so it's too linear like most Bioware games are then I will wait for something else.
A story is by definition linear. Sure, there might be choices you can make here and there but a story-driven MMO is always going to force you where they want you to go. Personally, I think story-driven MMOs like what Bioware is making are nothing more than glorified single player games. What's so fun about a bunch of people going through the same storylines together, doing exactly the same thing, wearing exactly the same quest (story) gear?
I just don't understand how such an incredible OP like Star Wars would be so carelessly given to a story-driven development team. And yes, I agree, there will be a LOT of disappointed people with this one.
/boggle
Just because there is an over-arching storyline does not mean that you can't ALSO form your own. Obviously that will happen naturally through your interactions with other players... which is exactly what happens in EVERY MMO. The addition of a rich storyline just means that you won't be bored out of your mind while grinding because things are actually happening around you and you are actually having an effect on the outcome.
Every Star Wars movie or book was focused around the epic action-packed Star Wars story. None of them were focused around the non-important crafter and moisture farmer characters. Honestly, who the hell cares about the doctors and dancers and costmetic surgeons!?! SWG was so anti-Star Wars it isn't even funny... yet many of you cannot look past it. Any Star Wars game that does not focus on the Star Wars storyline is a failure in my opinion...
I have no doubt that there will be some very disappointed people when this game releases. Those being the SWG vets who cannot let go. Fortunately Bioware is not listening to you.
I think the argument most people make is that humans drive the sw universe, but well I for one care more about the non humans. Plo koon, chewi, yoda. so far tor is being way to costricting to be more than a nitch title.,
Comments
Yep,not to mention you will have choices to make,that may/can effect the out come of a quest/missions you do.
Instead of having a quest that tells you to just go kill 10 Flaming Trolls,you mite have an option to make a treaty with them,befriend them,etc.. Needless to say it will be intresting to see how this plays out in an mmo. Honestly With the quest system they have EVEN with a story LINE with multiple options I just dont get peoples thinking that its going to be tunnel vision. but to each their own.
Holy crap, is it a slow news day in MMO land? You have an unreleased game which you know only a fraction of but you still feel the need to start spewing this? OK lets roll with it and just take it for granted that there WILL BE significant areas where the game will be limiting and very focused. SO WHAT? A single game can not be or do everything, just impossible. As a matter of fact games that try to do too much are more often then not complete failures.
Bottom line is that not every game is for everyone, this is the direction that Bioware is going with and I'm going to give them the benefit of a doubt until I can actually experience it first hand, then we the consumers will decide with our wallets.
Worst titled post ever. The post had nothing to do with the story aspect of the game at all. And here I was, reading the post, expecting to hear how cookie-cutter the content was or something. Retitle please
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
FYI...one reason why WOW is sooo popular is that there is a deep a rich lore attached to it...and in the game you experience it. Of course, it seems that SWTOR is taking it quite a few steps further, however, I do not see this as a problem, except that the end game might be a little tough to figure out if it is so dependent on a storyline...because well stories end eventually.
Currently Play: ?
Occasionally Play: Champions, Pirates of the Burning Sea, WOW, EVE ONLINE
I give credit, where credit is due.
This article is the type of article I like to read. Someone giving his honest opinion/insight, with his arguments and references.
Regarding the content of what was written.
I think that this game will be the next huge flop. The gameplay sucks, no ammount of golden'ed linear scripted path will make up for it, not even if it was Blizzard interactive cinematic. It is a down step into the players freedom and ability to cause effects into the world and others.
They are trying to artificially increase the longevity of the game, with the same content, masking it with "cutscenes and voice over". The mechanics behind it wont be new, your character wont be unique, you wont cause effect into the world, everyone and their mothers will do the same things you do, get the same results, in the end nothing you did will make you a hero amongst the other players, because it was designed to be a "everyone is a hero"....
They will make you feel like your a playing a handcrafted scenario, and you will be immersed on it. Then after hours playing, you will see that you accomplished nothing, evolved nothing, changed nothing, just completed a measly % of the scripted content. And people who skip it, will see the game for what it is.
I like to watch the ammount of hype regarding this game, I like that they are "doing something new", even though I know its not the something new to do at this point. The something new to do at this point is dynamic events on open world and designs that empower players with freedom, meaningfull choices and effects into the world and others.
Spending resources designing something that is not organic, random, dynamic, and procedurally generated is stupid. We already know we can make living breathing worlds with todays technology and design. That what MMORPGs originally aimed for, thats the direction players want and crave for. Insisting into scripted, linear, scaled, limited, handcrafted content , forcing people to play the way you designed, evolve the way you designed, experience the game according to the developers own view, enforcing artificial design limitations for the sake of an ilusion of balance... doesnt satisfy anymore, its a dieing school of thought, it didnt last long and nowadays people dont tolerate it anymore.
The target audience is average 25 years old and growing old now. The mmo community have matured.
If you dont design that, you are wasting your time developer.
I agree with Interesting as he points out, "The mechanics behind it won't be new, your character won't be unique, [and] you won't cause effect into the world[...]"
Now granted, I have a biased opinion, but at least I admit that up front. I prefer sandboxes, and MMOs or other games wherein you have a plethora of options including how far apart your eyes are to what color that strip is on your shoes. What irritates me about SWTOR and specificaly the latest generation of MMOs is their enfatic adherance to story and what most people refer to as the themepark. Explain to me what is fun about killing the same monster you killed yesterday, the day before, and everyday of the last month? Equally so, what is so thrilling about an MMO that strips your creative and customization choices in lieu of "story"?
I uterlly despise MMOs that give cookie cutter options for character customization. Things such as a choice between five different head models, or five colors of the same shirt. It's bland, and YES, eventually you will run into someone who looks exactly like you. WOW, that's really epic and heroic isn't it? It really emphasizes your heroic persona doesn't it?
Moreover, why play a game (or class in this instance) that you will complete in several days or weeks, and afterwards your only option is to play it again? Granted you might make some different decisions, if you choose to sit through all the endless voice over and dialogue (which quite frankly irritates the piss out of me in Bioware games), but it will be the same exact quests and content all over again. And there are only six classes to work with. Sounds like a rip-off, especially with a $15 per month price tag.
I just think it's sad that some people choose to continue to believe that TOR is an MMO, when all the evidence just keeps lending credence to the fact that, at best, it's a CORPG (Co-Operative Role Playing Game). Simply an extended single-player gaming experience with a MMO wrapper.
In any event, happy-gaming with whatever you choose to play.
The only way to answer your misinterpretation of what this game offers is for the game to launch and you to get an actual account of whats in it. Lets just bypass that you will be able to do world quests that will change the world around you. :: We can also dismiss that this game will have all the end game features every other MMO has had, including open world PvP, arena PvP, RAIDS, exploration, Guilds, amongst other things. :: Lets bypass that just about every MMO from P2P to F2P thats come out after 2002 has given you a lot less choice then TOR will give you. BioWare gives people actual choices in their otherwise mundane quest options that other games give them and people are scorning them for it.
Plus the 8 classes split to 16 classes, each with extended skill sets for alignment (multiply 16 by 3) and then multiply that by the alternate options per advanced class pool, you have a wide range of builds.
As for TOR being an MMO, only people with absolutely no knowledge of the game still think this game is a single player game, or even a (cooperative) online game. This is the reason why articles like Mr. Bittons exist, to cater to those that don't have the knowledge of the games features, and can only make rash generlaizations based on their biased, uninformed views.
You don't like the game, don't like the game. If you don't like the game because its not an "MMO" lets get a clue and stop not liking things due to made up claims. If you don't like the space combat, don't like Star Wars, don't like the animations, there are plenty of reasons why people can say they don't want to play TOR, but making up things like the OP, and the post I quoted, on baseless facts, and unproven ideals is just ridiculous.
"The story problem", what a joke, the only story I see as a problem are the stories some of these "critics" come up with to discuss this game.
All of these complaints are selfish. Oh no, the game isn't going to play like every other MMO! GOOD! That is what I am most excited about. The reason I haven't stuck with an MMO for more than a couple months is because they all suck in the same way. They just aren't my thing, though I wish I could play an RPG with some friends or at least some other people. That's what MMOs are for, only they aren't the type of RPG I like. So, oh no, someone is giving those voices that are less heard in the MMO community a game they would like to play. Those monsters. Who do they think they are. After all, we only have one Star Wars game that is a traditional MMO.
If you want to Gold farm, waste time trying to put a group together for a 30 person raid, and don't want a story to slow you down from clicking your mouse button over a pig, then go play WOW, or 1 of the other 100 MMOs. Just leave us supporters and our (hopefully) refreshenly different MMO alone.
So what we have here Mike is a concern about storyline, story mode and storytelling as it relates to an MMO. Looking back at the KOTOR series and the Dragon Age Series.. Bioware has made plenty of street cred when it comes to making good to great RPG games. Bringing that to an MMO of course brings its own risks and rewards... but let's for argument's sake say your concerns turn out right and Bioware misses the mark on story vs gameplay... well, with Bioware's ability to make good games, I'd say "Ok" they missed a bit on that aspect.. yet I bet I would still end up staying a good while in TOR, if for no other reason than the fact that I have been wowed by Bioware's attention to detail and ability to craft a good game in its single player worlds and therefore they should be able to fix the problems found by the player base.. so TOR under your concerns becomes just an above average to good game.. fair enough.. again, I doubt that will keep me from playing..
But now let's take the other side: What happens if Bioware pulls most of what they want in the game off?? NOW comes the tidal wave... if they pull even 75% off of what they want, you will undoubtably have the new proverbial 800 lb gorilla in the room that WoW has become... if they pull this off, I believe you have an instant classic, instant Hall of Fame game right on your hard drive... this is the possible outcome too of the potential this game wields.. we shall see soon what the end result is, but my gut instinct tells me that your concerns Mike will quickly be a moot point once the game goes live....
Then why are you even commenting?
Go ahead, show those fanboi colors.
Mmm...I dunno. Honestly if they're trying to make a game that sort of trudges you through the storyline, I think they're out of touch with their audience. The amount of people that read quest/story text versus though that do not is beyond comparison. Most people play games to actually like...play them. If they want a story, they read a book. It's shallow and kind of a shame, but it's true. So when most people find out they're only able to play the one race, they might find their desire to play compromised, even if the storyline is top notch.
Storyline is one of those things you enjoy, but don't always expect. At least, it is for me, and many gamers feel the same. Perhaps that just happened over time as we trudged through game after game that had fun mechanics but shoddy stories or worse, engrish translations; we just sort of got used to it and eventually stopped caring about the story altogether.
I happen to be a big fan of Guild Wars and am very much looking forward to Guild Wars 2. That said, while the story is great and I've enjoyed reading Ghosts of Ascalon, it is not the story that makes me want to play. Trying out the different racial skills, taking part in the events, getting gear, leveling up, etc....that's what makes me want to play. Unless the dialogue and story is presented cinematically, there's a good chance I'll be skipping the quest text in GW2, just like any other game.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I don't find negative the narrowed selection of starting avatars.If anything it only means company wants players to approach their avatars even more, and fill their role in a star wars environment.Don't forget for a starter , and even more for a non-star war fan, it would be tons of infos if he could choose a wookie or a twilek to learn their backround stories, their goals, habbits, languages etc.
If you recall , when WOW shipped most players chose a human avatar.Why?Because they found it more easy to learn the game's basics and then hop to a new race.Starters prefer a role that is somewhat familiar to them, then switch to a perhaps, more complex role, with strange habbits, backrounds and goals.
I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it
--Voltaire
That's not necessarily true. I remember at least on some servers that Horde were the dominant side when WoW first started, and Humans aren't horde. I know the race my friends and I first flocked to were nelfs, though we were all well-versed in the storyline by then due to the RTS games.
For most games, restricting race selection to humans is fine. If WoW tried to do that however, people would have raged, as well they should have. Star Wars is in the same boat, they have a HUGE selection of races. That is in fact, a huge part of the plot of the series be it movie or any number of the television spinoffs; how these various races coexist, or how they don't. There are many races making up every faction in the game, from everyday commoner to Jedi. It is a hugely diverse culture of aliens and humanoids existing and/or warring among each other. For that reason, restricting the game to human selection even if only at the beginning, is silly, especially for the sake of storyline.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Eh... but all the playable races in SWTOR aren't humans. They're humanoids. If they're humans, then elves, dark elves, dwarves, hobbits, klingons, vulcan, and all kinds of other races are humans too, and this would mean that race selection in a lot more MMO's would be restrictive too.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I dont see the issue. I've yet to see any MMO that lets you decide on what tree you want to continue on Quest wise... kill this person or dont.. save this person or dont. Letting saving someone lead to this path, killing someone lead to this path.
All current MMO's are str8 liner and you're lucky if your character actually "says" anything at all. Most game just use the NPC to "repeat ur thoughts" even though you your self never actually said a word. FFXIV is like this(that game is really just an asian grinder)
Another note, why buy or invest in a game like this if you dont want to immerse ur self in the story? Star War saga has always been about an indetph story of love hate betrayal and heroes. And you get to mix a living world into it.
Other then that, why so afraid of change? Or why would you want yet another cut-and-copy mmo with a diff skin thats just like all the rest.. I just dont get it personally. PPL saying remove the voices, remove the companion, remove the story... might as well play Quake or something and spend ur time running around shooting. SW:Jedi Academy has a nice Multiplayer combator. That or download an Asian Grinder and be happy having to kill 1trillion enemies a day for 1 level and finishing all the "Quest/Story" by the 20th or so level so you want have to worry about Quests anymore -shrug
As for race selection... meh, I guess all of the protags have been human after all but I'd love to pick a Zabrak as a character
oh well.
Games I've Played: SilkRoad, Flyff, NeoCron, PlanetSide, Rapplez, UpshiftRacer, Drift City, TB, Kwonho, ArchLord, AoA, Exteel, WolfTeam, Shaiyan, WoKF, FFXIV, STO, KoTR, ESO, Defiance, Mabinogi
Games I'm Playing: Warframe/STO
Games I'm Pondering: The Secret World
In most mmorpg's that I've played around with lack a very good storyline, mostly the martial arts/korean mmo's, and some of the new one's lack more of an important storyline to cast your character around. This is why I don't like most of the MMO because of this.
What I recommand for a good storyline is do what most single player games tend to do if your making a linear storyline, or you can try to do what Lord of the Rings: Online tries to do but add in cutscenes, CGI, and other things that help drawns me and other people into the game. Also unlike most of the mmo, when they do cutscenes, they forgot about voice actor's and also the ability of my player to speak with a voice then plain text. This is what don't draw me into mmo is that most of the text is not in voice acting, instead just plain old boring text. If you want to make a storyline strong mmo, add in plenty of cutscenes, CGI, Voice acting and the ability for my player to also have it's own voice. Take an element of Saint's Row 2, Final Fantasy X, The Force Unleash and combine them into the genre of your choice.
I also like it when I am limited to access to other places until I complete a certain storyline element, like what Amnesia: The Dark Descent has done, they limit you access until you completed several ways to get access to a certain key materials to get out, then you noticed that the place that your in starts to turn.
I don't mind a story-driven MMO, but if they make it so it's too linear like most Bioware games are then I will wait for something else. Granted I love Star Wars but I have a feeling there are going to be alot of dissapointed people come release time.
I don't doubt Bioware's talent in game design.
I doubt Bioware's talent in MMO game design.
/thread
I rarely if ever chime in on these reviews or thoughts, but this one screams "I WANT" , what it seems to me is every review, thought or idea that comes from this game someone as yourself stouts out a review or thought on it and it's always NEGATIVE. It's not swg, it's not pure customization of an MMO you are use to. There has been Nothing "NOTHING" that the bioware team hinted to saying it would be anything but KOTOR online based off the single player concept. If you go in with that idea, there is no new news here other then complaining it's not what "you" wanted. Big surprise, swg wasn't what we wanted, but dam you hear all the vets today swear it was before the changes.
Then in this , how does this produce a story problem? Your title should have been "I am pissed, I can't play my favorite race at launch!" That's all I read in this thought post. Sorry to kinda be rude here, but this article, comment, thought post is nothing but one sided "I want" talk. You sound like the other 10 year old in these forums. Sorry but I see nothing here professionally written, what I see is a guy who's feelings are hurt.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Single player, lead me by the nose, and instance it all isn't an MMO. While there may be thousands of people on your server. You won't be instancing with them so it doesn't really matter does it.
/agree the current trend to remove all choice and force every player to do the same thing as every other player really makes me worry about how dumb the younger generation is.
I can't really agree with this concept it sounds like a cop out to me, it's like saying you know what it means to be a Kel Dor, or a Human from Correlia but hey we got to tell you what being a wookie is all about. Most true fans of both KoToR and star wars know what it is about. You live in a honor based society of tree dwellers, your claws are never used in combat. Most of your kin are hunters, animal handelers, or warriors. You speak in growls, groans, and other sounds, and you live to be over four hundered years old if no one kills you.
It sounds to me more like they wanted to go with a stock set of faces and features then said okay thats good stop there. Transdocians, wookies, and the like would make them have to program more looks, armors, and options into the game and that was something they didn't want to do.
The idea of wait it will come in later is just BS, plain and simple. Why will I wait for an expansion to be what I want to be? All that means is suddenly I am starting a new character to level up to be my main guy after everyone else I know is already at end game doing end game stuff. Okay so they story driving the game might make it fun, but will it make it worth it? How will me playing the game, and then getting a tell from a friend who needs help be enjoyable. Becuase at that moment I'll have to log the character I want to be, to play the character I was playing simply as a place holder for my desired character.
I've been playing MMO's for a very, very long time, and the one thing that kills all of them is the sorry you can't factor. This is where a company implies a thing, then does not deliver it. This factor alone kills a game, and no ammount of companion characters will make SWToR into a star wars mmo for the people that want to play the game a certain way and can't. Which, with all the restrictions in how to play this game is a rather big deal. Want to play a soldier who is a melee fighter, aw sorry you can't. Want to play a wookie, sorry can't do that. Want to play any class on either side, sorry no can do.
Bioware needs to stop, think, and process that gamers live for can, not can't. Or in the words of Yoda, there is only do or do not there is no try. Do or Do Not make a star wars mmo, cause bioware, if your trying to make one your not being a jedi.
A story is by definition linear. Sure, there might be choices you can make here and there but a story-driven MMO is always going to force you where they want you to go. Personally, I think story-driven MMOs like what Bioware is making are nothing more than glorified single player games. What's so fun about a bunch of people going through the same storylines together, doing exactly the same thing, wearing exactly the same quest (story) gear?
I just don't understand how such an incredible OP like Star Wars would be so carelessly given to a story-driven development team. And yes, I agree, there will be a LOT of disappointed people with this one.
/boggle
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Just because there is an over-arching storyline does not mean that you can't ALSO form your own. Obviously that will happen naturally through your interactions with other players... which is exactly what happens in EVERY MMO. The addition of a rich storyline just means that you won't be bored out of your mind while grinding because things are actually happening around you and you are actually having an effect on the outcome.
Every Star Wars movie or book was focused around the epic action-packed Star Wars story. None of them were focused around the non-important crafter and moisture farmer characters. Honestly, who the hell cares about the doctors and dancers and costmetic surgeons!?! SWG was so anti-Star Wars it isn't even funny... yet many of you cannot look past it. Any Star Wars game that does not focus on the Star Wars storyline is a failure in my opinion...
I have no doubt that there will be some very disappointed people when this game releases. Those being the SWG vets who cannot let go. Fortunately Bioware is not listening to you.
I have to agree, not being able to play as alien will make this game WORLD much poorer.
I am 7 years SWG veteran and to be honest in my MMO gaming expirience aliens are what gives flavor to Star wars universe.
Companions are fine, but to know real wookie or jawa (actualy bothan) like Het Nkin from EU Chimarea, is expirience you can't replace.
I think the argument most people make is that humans drive the sw universe, but well I for one care more about the non humans. Plo koon, chewi, yoda. so far tor is being way to costricting to be more than a nitch title.,