I'm sorry. IMHO, Tolkien would sue Turbine for what they did to his world. Magic and magical items for everyone in middle earth? Meh, did the devs even read Tokien's work? It's more like Harry Potter Goes To Middle Earth Online. You must have LOTRO confused with WoW. Now THAT is game has lore. Don't get me wrong, I love LOTRO and think it's a fantastic game, just not a game devoted to the lore from which it came.
I would point out that Middle Earth was rather awash with magical items in a very MMOish way - loot was picked up along the way from troll lairs, goblin lairs, dragon lairs, wight lairs ... not to mention the various quest rewards handed out by elves along the way.
The HEROES found magical items, or were given special items to help them on their way by the most powerful people in the world.
Theoden didn't have a magical sword. Almost nobody else did. That stuff was rare, it only happened because the main characters were exceptional people. There were only FIVE wizards, and magic was subtle, very subtle. Middle Earth Online was going to stick with that and use the morale system rather than a health based one, but like all their good ideas, they got chucked out when WoW became popular and the dark ages of MMO design hit.
Being faithful to the original is not the same as being good lore. EQ2 is faithful to the original and is terrible. The fact is, LoTRO had great lore. I couldn't care less if it matched Tolkien or not. Adaptation is not about making the form fit the original, it's about remaking the original in a new form. Some things just don't work when adapting things from one medium to another and other things are required in one form over another.
Summary: 1. Agreed that LoTRO wasn't fully faithful to Tolkien. 2. It still had some of the best lore in MMOs.
Perhaps a separate discussion is needed on what adaptation is the most faithful to original.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
So first I agree wtih most of you about GW, Lotro, and even WoW. But there is a game that I am currently playing that I haven't seen mentioned once, so I figured I would throw it out there.
Fallen Earth.
When the game came out and I first bought and played it, it was clunky and bug ridden and I tossed it aside.
D2D just had a big sale and had it's expansion for 6 dollars so I thought, why the hell not, and gave it another try.
Now I am glad that I did.
They retooled the graphics it seems and the gameplay is excellent.
But back to the question of lore.
I'm not very far in yet, but already I feel like I am in the wasteland that was the grand canyon area of the states. The tutorial does a good job of explaining who and what you are and even explains why when you die you "come back." It also explains why the world went to hell in a handbasket. All in all I think it quickly and effectively paints a vivid picture.
Once in the world you learn fast that there are six different major factions. Not your usual 2-3 but six. More importatnly people latch onto the lore in this game. Depending on your faction some guilds may seek you out to join up and some may hunt you down (if your pvp flagged).
Behind each faction seems to be a rich lore that gives them reason to be.
This has been a pleasant discovery for me being someone of the new era of gamers. Its my first experience with a richly detailed sandbox game.
I dunno, I just felt like maybe this one was getting overlooked
Funny you should say MIddle Earth Online. That was LotRO's original name, back when it was going to be a sandbox game, had a slew of talented developers, and had a hardcore mature community behind it. Turbine basically ruined all that with the name and direction change. I was in the alpha, it was a million times better.
As for what I think is the best lore ever? Dark Age of Camelot.
The worlds were MASSIVE and steeped in lots of lore and research, down to giving the ants in Cornwall a Welsh name. Arthurian legend, Irish folklore, Midgard and Valhalla!
Dozens of unique classes, which you could spec each class a dozen different ways, and all of it had stories behind it.
And RvR is one of the biggest innovations in the industry, and has yet to be met by any other game save maybe Darkfall. Rams, balistas, trebuchets, boiling oil, siege towers, catapults, it was an amazing time.
And all of it had LORE backing it up. Lore that reflected in the game world. Something most MMOs don't do. The RvR worked because the lore made you HATE the other side, but also made it clear no one was really the bad guy.
Ah... good to see you back again, comparing LotRO to a game that never existed.
I started coded a LotRO MMO, too. Massive world with no load screens, areas are all perfect in every detail. It was built to the perfect size to where it would take you, real time, the same amount of time to get from Hobbiton to Mount Doom as it took the Hobbits. All the Vendors were played by the staff, as well as all the Monsters you'd encounter.
Also, you got to see Arwen naked. Her ears weren't the only things that were pointy...
But alas, I never quite finished it. But now you know that LotRO sucks compared to my game.
Good to see you're still proving yourself a master at bad debate. Maybe if there hadn't been hundreds of thousands of people following MEO, and thousands playing it, you'd be correct. But to say Middle earth Online never existed is moronic because it STILL exists, in a form. Lord of the Rings Online is the exact same graphics, engine, and such of MEO, just the design in terms of instances and combat and stuff is changed. And it was a bad change.
Go tell all the old Star Wars Galaxies fans that SWG Pre NGE never existed. You'd look like an idiot.
I do not like how much LoTRO does not follow Tolkein's lore as much as I would have liked it to.
EQ and Vanguard would have my favorite lore and best quests where I felt like the lore made it a lot better.
AoC involved way too much running from NPC to NPC and I got sick of reading the quests . .. but the lore there was pretty cool too but they totally overdid the amount of NPCs that you had to run back and forth from to unlock content and I do not like it ever when everyone shares the same exact story and background.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Theoden didn't have a magical sword. Almost nobody else did. That stuff was rare, it only happened because the main characters were exceptional people. There were only FIVE wizards, and magic was subtle, very subtle. Middle Earth Online was going to stick with that and use the morale system rather than a health based one, but like all their good ideas, they got chucked out when WoW became popular and the dark ages of MMO design hit.
It doesn't say his sword isn't magical - by the time you reach The Two Towers, Tolkien is far more interested in the ancestory and motivation of characters than the mechanics of their gear. Theoden's sword ("Herugrim") is merely described as an ancient heirloom of the Rohirrim people, which could easily be taken as an implication that it did have special properties (given his mundane descriptions of other blades such as the barrow wight swords which turned out to have enchantments).
Magic pervaded Middle Earth the way technology does in the modern world - you rarely go out of your way to say a specialized screwdriver is a technological tool, so similarly Tolkien rarely went out of his way to distinguish magical from non-magical although there are occassional references - the doors of Mornia, Grond ("on it spells of ruins lay"), the power of the elves, Aragorn's healer's touch and so on. So although the word "wizard" was usually reserved to refer specifically to the Order of the Istari as you point out, the concept of wielding magic as a craft was everywhere throughout the lore.
Interestingly, the Peter Jackson movies actually tone down Gandalf's spellcasting, leaving out the fireworks he rains down on wargs and goblins along the way (which deflects a lot of the complicated questions about what exactly the Istari were allowed and able to do).
But these debates show the innate danger of attempting to import any external IP into an MMO - it draws in more eyeballs, but it also invites an extra tier of criticism.
EVE Online. Most of the MMOs suggested are just online single player or co-op games, and thus do not really count as MMOs. Asheron's Call would be a close second, though...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
In how many games does the lore actually explain the actual mechanics of the game? ie: existance of multiple servers, what death means, where does magic come from and how is it limited, the ecology of creatures rewspawning, etc. These are the details - the physics and metaphysics of the universe - I personally tend to value in lore more than the history/story.
Good lore will try to be inclusive and address these. I like this world-building as well and a good story (eg Tolkien) will create this background like rich humus for the story grow roots in and feed off is an off-cuff analogy to illustrate how the story should grow organically from such seemingly small details. So the two are very much related imo.
EG GW2 (harking on about this game but it's a good eg) there is the concept of "The Mists" to explain why several worlds might be fighting in a separate instance. EG Warhammer IP with the the Magic Vortex on the Elven Islands acting as a magic sink and the Eye of Chaos in the North polar gates acting as a magic source, creating a dynamic "Winds of Magic" flowing/blowing throughout the world that can be defracted into 8 colors or left raw (Dark) or refined (High) or channeled (Necromantic) or mastered (Slann). Sadly WAR "teabagged" the ip as Lokke666 suggests above.
Answering the OP: I like Midgaard setting a lot in DAOC, though that's personal preference. LoTR of course has excellent lore and I missed GW because of the lusty ladies on the boxes, inclined me to dismiss this game and WAR had some great scripted stories and quests but totally in isolation of actual world.
GW2 seems to be adding to the list of great features with it's lore. See Durmand Priory in GW2G
Comments
While it's more of a co-op RPG, for me it was Guild Wars. That's the last game where I was actually interested in the quest text and storyline.
Steam: Neph
Being faithful to the original is not the same as being good lore. EQ2 is faithful to the original and is terrible. The fact is, LoTRO had great lore. I couldn't care less if it matched Tolkien or not. Adaptation is not about making the form fit the original, it's about remaking the original in a new form. Some things just don't work when adapting things from one medium to another and other things are required in one form over another.
Summary: 1. Agreed that LoTRO wasn't fully faithful to Tolkien. 2. It still had some of the best lore in MMOs.
Perhaps a separate discussion is needed on what adaptation is the most faithful to original.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
So first I agree wtih most of you about GW, Lotro, and even WoW. But there is a game that I am currently playing that I haven't seen mentioned once, so I figured I would throw it out there.
Fallen Earth.
When the game came out and I first bought and played it, it was clunky and bug ridden and I tossed it aside.
D2D just had a big sale and had it's expansion for 6 dollars so I thought, why the hell not, and gave it another try.
Now I am glad that I did.
They retooled the graphics it seems and the gameplay is excellent.
But back to the question of lore.
I'm not very far in yet, but already I feel like I am in the wasteland that was the grand canyon area of the states. The tutorial does a good job of explaining who and what you are and even explains why when you die you "come back." It also explains why the world went to hell in a handbasket. All in all I think it quickly and effectively paints a vivid picture.
Once in the world you learn fast that there are six different major factions. Not your usual 2-3 but six. More importatnly people latch onto the lore in this game. Depending on your faction some guilds may seek you out to join up and some may hunt you down (if your pvp flagged).
Behind each faction seems to be a rich lore that gives them reason to be.
This has been a pleasant discovery for me being someone of the new era of gamers. Its my first experience with a richly detailed sandbox game.
I dunno, I just felt like maybe this one was getting overlooked
Good to see you're still proving yourself a master at bad debate. Maybe if there hadn't been hundreds of thousands of people following MEO, and thousands playing it, you'd be correct. But to say Middle earth Online never existed is moronic because it STILL exists, in a form. Lord of the Rings Online is the exact same graphics, engine, and such of MEO, just the design in terms of instances and combat and stuff is changed. And it was a bad change.
Go tell all the old Star Wars Galaxies fans that SWG Pre NGE never existed. You'd look like an idiot.
I do not like how much LoTRO does not follow Tolkein's lore as much as I would have liked it to.
EQ and Vanguard would have my favorite lore and best quests where I felt like the lore made it a lot better.
AoC involved way too much running from NPC to NPC and I got sick of reading the quests . .. but the lore there was pretty cool too but they totally overdid the amount of NPCs that you had to run back and forth from to unlock content and I do not like it ever when everyone shares the same exact story and background.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
It doesn't say his sword isn't magical - by the time you reach The Two Towers, Tolkien is far more interested in the ancestory and motivation of characters than the mechanics of their gear. Theoden's sword ("Herugrim") is merely described as an ancient heirloom of the Rohirrim people, which could easily be taken as an implication that it did have special properties (given his mundane descriptions of other blades such as the barrow wight swords which turned out to have enchantments).
Magic pervaded Middle Earth the way technology does in the modern world - you rarely go out of your way to say a specialized screwdriver is a technological tool, so similarly Tolkien rarely went out of his way to distinguish magical from non-magical although there are occassional references - the doors of Mornia, Grond ("on it spells of ruins lay"), the power of the elves, Aragorn's healer's touch and so on. So although the word "wizard" was usually reserved to refer specifically to the Order of the Istari as you point out, the concept of wielding magic as a craft was everywhere throughout the lore.
Interestingly, the Peter Jackson movies actually tone down Gandalf's spellcasting, leaving out the fireworks he rains down on wargs and goblins along the way (which deflects a lot of the complicated questions about what exactly the Istari were allowed and able to do).
But these debates show the innate danger of attempting to import any external IP into an MMO - it draws in more eyeballs, but it also invites an extra tier of criticism.
I didnt read the thread, but has anybody stated a Sandbox mmo yet?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I did. at least I feel like FE is a sandbox.
fixed it for you.
Everquest...
It was a pain in the ass, but it had a lot of good lore in it.
EverQuest.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
EVE Online. Most of the MMOs suggested are just online single player or co-op games, and thus do not really count as MMOs. Asheron's Call would be a close second, though...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
^
Wildstar:
Phantazm, Pago(PvP), Exiles
Guild: Socks with Sandals
Playing: Wildstar
Retired/Tried: DCUO. The Secret World, Darkfall UW, Darkfall, Mortal Online, DDO, Rift, Fallen Earth, Aion, APB, EQ, EQ2, PoTBS, WoW, WAR, SWG, CoX, Vangaurd, CO, GW, EVE, DAoC, LotRO, SW:ToR, GW2, Dragon Nest
oh a FUNNY troll ha ha!
Good lore will try to be inclusive and address these. I like this world-building as well and a good story (eg Tolkien) will create this background like rich humus for the story grow roots in and feed off is an off-cuff analogy to illustrate how the story should grow organically from such seemingly small details. So the two are very much related imo.
EG GW2 (harking on about this game but it's a good eg) there is the concept of "The Mists" to explain why several worlds might be fighting in a separate instance. EG Warhammer IP with the the Magic Vortex on the Elven Islands acting as a magic sink and the Eye of Chaos in the North polar gates acting as a magic source, creating a dynamic "Winds of Magic" flowing/blowing throughout the world that can be defracted into 8 colors or left raw (Dark) or refined (High) or channeled (Necromantic) or mastered (Slann). Sadly WAR "teabagged" the ip as Lokke666 suggests above.
Answering the OP: I like Midgaard setting a lot in DAOC, though that's personal preference. LoTR of course has excellent lore and I missed GW because of the lusty ladies on the boxes, inclined me to dismiss this game and WAR had some great scripted stories and quests but totally in isolation of actual world.
GW2 seems to be adding to the list of great features with it's lore. See Durmand Priory in GW2G
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
i think world craft has pretty good lore if u follow it from the beginning
madnessman
Out of all the MMO's I have played LotRO contains the best lore.