If people weren't so cheap and cough up a extra $400-600 when buying a pc that wouldnt have problems running higher end games, I have a mid-level gaming computer that I spent only 850$ on built it myself and I have no problem running any game what so ever, time for people to man up and dump the dinosaurs they have in their living rooms and bedrroms if they want to partpicate in PC gaming down the road.
That's just stupid tbh. Anyone can build a decent system for half what you did. And rather than waste the extra $400-600, I'd rather just build another new system in 18-24 months.
I don't think really, we have just tons more of the same things we had 10 years ago. Also the hardware of today is lightyears ahead of the gaming software, someone is gonna have to bite the bullet and start utilizing the hardware and not worry about the people still playing on there 10 year old dell desktop. in a sense, if you build it, they will come .
hahaha, They built it and no one showed up!
Couldent agree more. The games that do it diffrently struggle time and time again. The games that offer the same old, on a strudy and lower tech level, thrive. In case you havent noticed, people chose stability and gameplay over top notch graphics.
Your basically asking someone to invest hundreds of millions of dollars (you want the best technology to be use right) on a game that 5-10% of the playerbase can use (best technology) AND you want it to be diffrent (proven track record of low returns)...oh and you want near perfection im sure.
Sure ill just get right on that.
If people weren't so cheap and cough up a extra $400-600 when buying a pc that wouldnt have problems running higher end games, I have a mid-level gaming computer that I spent only 850$ on built it myself and I have no problem running any game what so ever, time for people to man up and dump the dinosaurs they have in their living rooms and bedrroms if they want to partpicate in PC gaming down the road.
I'm assuming you've missed the memo (if you're a U.S. citizen) that we're in a bit of an....oh.....depression? I also see that you're 30 years old and may or may not have a family, children to raise, teenagers, young adults entering college....etc., etc. You say 850 dollars like it's pocket change, and while that is extraordinarily cheap for a gaming machine...it's not a matter of people "being cheap." It's a matter of life, bills, and responsibilities for some people.
Now...I say that, but I do upgrade my machine pretty much annually FOR gaming. However....that doesn't mean that everyone is able to do so.....which is why the games that don't require the latest hardware....are more successful / popular. Like you, I love the latest technology and the greatest graphics. Love, love, LOVE. BUT.....if that focus on graphics means the developers focus LESS on game play....then I'm all for saying "make the graphics less a priority.
I kinda laugh when I read about people talking about how $600 is a lot of money to buy a computer. First off a fricken PS3 is around $400 (I think) and you get barely anything that you get out of a computer. A good vid card now a days go for around $400. All that is still cheap considering we spent around $4500 on a 486dx2 66 with a 1x cd-rom back in the days. Ya and the worst part is that in a matter of a year it was already slow. A $600 machine now a day's still last you for a while.
That whole paragraph roll into my next topic of people who play MMO's/Computer games now a days. When I started out you played games on your computer because you were, well a geek. When MMO's came out you played with people that were actually computer geeks and "loved" computers. It has now changed were every idiot out there plays them. That has the whole misconception of a Mature player now on MMO's. I don't mind grouping with kids if they are 14 and love computers and understand what they are doing. I rather group with them then some 19 year old who could care less and just started to play computer games like 6 months ago because now they could finally afford a cheap ass computer.
Everything really then shows how MMO's evolved. Gaming companies now a day's want to build games that are made for those 19 year old kids who barely understand what's going on. Or companies like Blizz turn a great game into a easy game made for idiots who want things fast. Vanguard was the last real fantasy game based on players who enjoy computers. Eve did a good job also to bring that audience in.
Also everyone has a fetish for F2P not understanding what it is all about. F2P is not Free. I think people think this way because they only play the first few weeks of a F2P game before they move on. People should play a game and pay if they like it. I think that makes sense. An example would be Atlantica online. I don't play it because its F2P, I play it because its good. I would still pay $14 a month for it. Personally for me LOTRO should have never gone F2P. It was a perfectly fine game with easily enough population.
I think the problem Snoop is that many people around today forget how much a computer use to cost. It literally cost you upwards of 4,000+ US dollars not to long ago. The best ran upwards of 5k! So though times are harder now, the cost is definitely much easier to swallow even in hard times. Imagine if comps still cost 4k+ dollars.
Once I have the thought. "I must travel to Yosun to join the Legendary Army in their raid against the Dark Lords!" instead of "I need to do this dungeon to get the legplates." I will actually feel amazed.
Originally posted by Explorium I am happy with how they evolved. Unlike some people on here, I have a life...and I'm glad MMOs are becoming more casual based. No longer do I have to play 12 hours or more a day to compete with no-lifers. I can actually be a part of RAIDS, where as, before only hardcore no-lifers could be a part of them. I can actually take part in MMOs now, where as, before I couldn't.
I'm very happy with the way they are going. I no longer have to play MMOs as a second JOB, but now I can play it as what they are...a game...fun...ENTERTAINMENT.
How complete falacy is this. There were casuals in old mmorpgs and hardcores. People are just so selective in what they see.. I see people playing so much WoW and citing its casual its such a joke their sheer contradiction. Just like Eve Online. People cite the casualness of that. I got a friend who is basically always on that..
Yes there were casual gamers in the old mmorpg's but if you wanted to get anywherew you had to be a power gamer. Only the power gamer(aka hardcore gamer) had the best weapons best equipment because they poured more time in to the game. You can try to deny this but it is true. Before WoW came out if you were a casual gamer you could never join the 40 man raids because you didnt have the equipment to join. Because of Blizzard and WoW major game companies are now paying attention to the casual gamer, naking it easier for those who only have 2-4 hours of game time a day to play. You cry falacy at this but it is the truth you need to open your eyes to see it.
I don't know what part of Everquest you played. But my PoP Guild had many casual players (which was playing 2-4 hours as many were workers). I don't recall PoP raiding with fondness but there is exactly the same casual/hardcore balance imo.
(makes me laugh how hardcore people say EQ was, and the time it takes to level all the way to the cap is exactly the same- probably shorter these days in terms of EQ. Yes it was hardcore Pre PoP, but you're talking about 8 expansions since then..)
Once I have the thought. "I must travel to Yosun to join the Legendary Army in their raid against the Dark Lords!" instead of "I need to do this dungeon to get the legplates." I will actually feel amazed.
That's what makes the mechnics of some of today's MMOs so fun (at least in small doses for me as I don't like too much drama).
Some of my thought processes while playing a recent MMO this summer:
I must meet up with my party which is currently traveling to location X to meet up with the army that is preparing to attack territory Y.
Oh no, the defenders of territory Y has noticed the gathering and is mounting an impressive defense, change plans meet up with allies Z for plan B.
Oh no, we stumbled upon the marching enemy army and there's only 2 of us.....
There are some negatives of that particular MMO too
Ok, we're here at location X expecting an onslaught of raiders from territory Y. Where are the other defenders? Our allies have abandoned us?!?
What? You're abandoning your nation to join the dark side?
For another MMO, there was a dungeon/raid squad which went like:
Everyone, seperate into formation and let the tankers lead.
Magic users, do your attacks, others, hang back.
Gunners, do your attacks, magic users, hang back
Seperate into 2 groups at the fork and time our attacks to finish at the sme time
Not really. 10 years ago I could've only imagined what kind of MMO would be out now. They should've stuck with the UO/DAoC/AC formula. I just want an actual "world" back and not a quest line. Back in the day you had to be social, because if you didn't you were in for a world of hurt by yourself. I don't get it..all this money going into these games..what is it going into?
It bothers me MMO's have gone for the graphics. The more glitz the game has, it becomes the next best thing to sliced bread. Nevermind the quality and storyline of the game.
Secondly are "instances". Far too many for present day MMO's. Bring back the old MMO's where you as a player had the opportunity to explore the world you were in, not just awaiting instances to whirl you away.
I Think that one of the key issues both good and bad is that warcraft opened up MMO's to a wider audience than what it was. with broadband in most countries being given away free with telephone contracts more people are online.
the problem is that with wow atracting the numbers it does every single mmo company is now wanting a slice of that cake and so every single sodding new mmo to hit the market is basically wow in a different costume.
LOTR is wow in tolkiens world, conan is wow in conan world, every new game is now based on the solo to end game before having fun. games that require you to look for a group or be a specific class are dead very few people like that sort of game style.
the other thing is the first mmo rose tinted glasses are gone, i log into a new game and i spend all of 5 minutes looking around and instantly get bored. its the same style of leveling same style of crafting same style of grouping. tank, dps, healer
there hasnt been any real inovation in mmos since well the start, thats noones real fault the few games that tried inovation such as swg suffered with a limited population and everyone knows money talks.
i will also add that PVP has ruined more games too many games and ill cite, startrek online and champions online neither of these games needed any form of pvp content. every game i have played has always balanced around pvp and not the pve. classes that are overpowered in pvp are nerfed and it ruins pve.
I think it has gone in the wrong direction. I feel there has been a very severe dumbing down process as the industry gets older, with games like WoW really turning mmorpgs into more of a mindless routine. Anything truly challenging that people can't beat quickly is accused of being a grind now. PvP has such severe restrictions on it these days.
I started my MMO experiences with UO (same as a lot of people). But prior to that I played a lot of single player RPGs (my favorite was Planescape Torment) and adventure games (starting with Myst and including such great titles as the Gabriel Knight series, the Broken Sword series, and the Monkey Island games, of course...among many others like Grim Fandango, which was a complete brain work out...god what a great game that was). What I see now....that had not occured to me before....is what I finally realized to be the thing I have found so lacking in modern MMOs that the older games had. Not just the older MMOs, but the older games in all of those genres......problem solving. Puzzles, for lack of a better word. Not puzzles like Bejeweled...casual connect 3 type stuff...but thought puzzles.
Lately I've started playing Runescape, which I had never played for more than a few days before, because I found the graphics rather...blah...and it kept me from getting into it. They have changed a LOT graphically, but otherwise, as well. But what I've found I'm most ENJOYING has nothing to do with good or "bad" graphics, but rather with opportunities to solve problems and to THINK without being told what to do every step of the way. Older games used to have that too, and I had forgotten how much I loved it.
For instance....there was a quest where you had to go get this lady's cat back for her. It had run off. You had to figure out where it was, figure out how to "convince it" to return with you and not claw your eyes out. The quest did not tell you how to go about doing any of that. It gave you an idea of the area the cat might be in...and that was all. So I went to find it....tried to pick it up to take it back...and it wouldn't do anything but hiss and scratch at me. Anyway...weak example of what I'm talking about, BUT...I ended up trekking off to get a bucket...milk a cow...fish up some herring...then tried that. Still...no deal. The cat seemed sort of interested in the fish (not the milk), but still it wasn't quite right. I could not figure out what the deal was. Ended up the cat like a sort of "herbed" fish that was rubbed in a strange herb I found in the cat's owner's backyard. heh
I haven't seen quests that made you actually think....for a while now.....like....YEARS. Also...damn near everything in the game is clickable, explorable, searchable....sometimes you find things. I was chopping down a tree and a bird's nest fell out of it. I could have just tossed it, but...I decided to see what was in it first. Inside the nest was an egg and a sapphire ring! Whodathunkit? lol
So my answer to the OP question is.....yes.....and definitely no. Yes, in that I love the beautiful graphics, especially if there is a huge world to explore. I love the immersion of "living" in that alternate place for a few hours. BUT....having said that....there is more importance placed on graphics in some games than there is on gameplay. And that.....is getting very old to me. If I'm a crafter, when I'm crafting...I want to "feel like" I'm crafting and not just hitting a button and blammo....out comes item A, B, or C. EQ2, Vanguard, Fallen Earth, and Runescape are all different ways of facilitating that "feeling" for me. Most other games are not. And the problem solving, thought-provoking quests, well......the new games need to go BACK to that a bit, I think. I would really like to see the classic "kill ten rats" thing minimized....a LOT.
And another thing.....the holy trinity deal. MMOs today do NOT give you enough choices in ANYthing. EQ started a lot of the things, actually, that I see as problems, at least for me. I loved the freedom in UO (and in Runescape) or being able to mold your character EXACTLY HOW YOU WANT. No set classes....just a lot of freedom. I realize that pre-defining classes serves a purpose, BUT....it's not fun any more. It becomes VERY dull when every game has 8 set classes and most of them are the same from game to game. Blah. GIVE US MORE CHOICES and FREEDOM, please!
TL:DR VERSION: I want quests that require thinking. I want problem solving quests. I want more freedom and choices, including in classes. Skill based systems offer more choices and freedom.
Great post, and I completely agree. There's so many little things that you thought would be standard that are just left out now. It's like developers decided that players want only combat, skills, and dumb easy quests and just focused on that.
When I play WoW, I usually listen to a book at the time simply because WoW is so brain dead that I don't even need to pay complete attention. And if I die, who cares there's hardly any death penalty.
I really miss the old 2d games where you could interact with almost EVERYTHING in the world. Little things like being able to sit in a chair, ring those wind chimes you see, or write in a book you find added so much to the game world. I really hope that a mainstream developer gives this back to us. We are in dire need of a game that embraces the virtual world philosophy.
Originally posted by Ramonski7 You guys are mixing trends with evolution. That's like mixing emotions with logic. Logic dictates that yes in the terms of the technical and development aspects of mmos, they have indeed evolved. But in order to look at it from a somewhat neutral standpoint, you have to be willing to set aside your emotional baggage for a moment and judge the genre as a whole. Let's look at the acronym for the genre as a way to break it down in more measurable terms. And for this discussion we'll focus on the year 1996 and look at a game every 5 years after that year to base our judgement on: Massively: Can they create a true massive single world
1996: zero mmos were released that could handle a single server system
2001: zero mmos were released that could handle a single server system
2006: 3 mmos have been released that can handle a single server system
2011: ?? Multi-player: How many people can play at a given time (concurrent users)
1996: 100+ per server
2001: 1000+ per server
2006: 60,000+ per server
2011: ?? Online: How interactive is the online environment?
1996: flat or 2d environment, no 3d environment mmos
2001: 3+ 3d mmos available with crude environments (lots of technical limitations)2006: 20+ 3d mmos available ranging from crude to highly detailed (varied limitations)2011: ??
Role-Playing: The freedom to bring your vision to life. How deep is the creation systems? 1996: skin color and gender can be customized2001: all of the above and hair, face, height and body size2006: all of the above and several facial features, body part sizes, body markings and hair length20011: ??
Game: Customizing your way to play. Player created content. 1996: 1 mmo offered player created content2001: 1 mmo offered player created content2006: 5 mmos offered player created content2011: ??
Evolution is the ability for something to change in order to keep from dying out. MMOs have done just that over the years. Trends are temporary features accepted by the masses until something else takes it's place. That is until the trend works it's way around again. Evolution is universal with every mmo. The move from 2d to 3d for example. So to answer your question yes, I'm quite satisfied in the way things have evolved. But somewhat disappointed in the trends that took hold in the genre.
I am happy with the hardware advancements that we have seen over the years but I'm not happy at all with the gameplay of the current crop of mmos.
I think I am more disapointed at how modern mmo's have stopped forcing the player to evolve than I am concerned with the current evolution of mmo's.
Long corpse runs with the gear you had to go grab from your bank becouse all your best stuff is still sitting in the bottom of Lower guk on your corpse, and you cant find any necros online willing to summon your corpses for a decent price?
That taught people to understand the limitations of their gear, skill, level, and aa's.
Name changes and server changes getting posted on official websites?
that taught people that they couldnt be a total jerk, cry baby, or bad player trying to get carried in content they shouldnt be doing unless they wanted to be blacklisted from the community becouse changing your name was pointless and creating a new character and getting it to current high end standards took forever.
Does that mean I want to go play a game with 1999 graphics and 6 active buttons to play my charcter? No not at all. However I wouldnt mind some non instanced shared content so that the community has some of the tools to police themselves.
Where are the days when reputation was greater than anything else?
In short, I am greatly disapointed at the current phase we are in of the mmo's genres evolution.
You guys are mixing trends with evolution. That's like mixing emotions with logic. Logic dictates that yes in the terms of the technical and development aspects of mmos, they have indeed evolved. But in order to look at it from a somewhat neutral standpoint, you have to be willing to set aside your emotional baggage for a moment and judge the genre as a whole.
Let's look at the acronym for the genre as a way to break it down in more measurable terms.
<>
I am happy with the hardware advancements that we have seen over the years but I'm not happy at all with the gameplay of the current crop of mmos.
Yes, let's DO look at the very NAME of the genre "MMORPG."
Massive
Multiplayer
Online
Role
Playing
Game
I see a lot of games filling the part of massive, multiplayer, and online.
I do NOT see a lot of games facilitating the role playing part of the acronym. Role playing doesn't just mean those supernerds that form huge guilds (or lots of small "family style" guilds) and have role playing events and what not....the ones that go around speaking in strange "accents" and dialects. No. That is only a small part of "role playing," and in my opinion, not a requirement for the gaming illusion of playing a role. Although, I must say...for me...those people add GREATLY to the environment in MMORPGs.
What facilitates a game that gives the illusion of role playing is this:
An immersive vast game world that "feels" like a "real" place where your character would live, work, battle, etc. Your character would fulfill a purpose in such a "world." This is almost totally missing from newer games, sadly, for multiple reasons. Most of today's games never let you "forget" you're sitting at your desk playing a game.
The communities are horrible with much "n00b" "yo momma" "that's so gay" type chat.
The "game" within the game....has become a gear chasing mini-game, of sorts. The conquest for gear, in many games, has trumped the adventure, the story, the "living out" of a "role" in the game world.
The game worlds are either restrictive and have invisible walls that prevent free roam adventuring, or....they are so restricted by levels that could reasonably hope to survive (risk is great...even VERY risky for death...but completely impossible and therefore restricted to certain levels...is not okay, imo). Conversely....NO risk is ALSO a crime when it comes to making a virtual world feel "real."
If your character has no house, tent, campsite, or place to call "home," unless you're playing a street bum....that's just ridiculous. Very few games have good player housing any more. I could name the ones that do on one hand. Not having player housing...is not conducive to role playing or feeling like you have a "place" in the game world.
If your character "works" for a living in this fantasy world....you know....has some way of making money to buy a beer at the local in game tavern....then that "job" should be compelling enough to suspend disbelief and therefore facilitate playing that role of a crafter or tradesman, if that is the profession your character has in the game world. Again....FAR TOO FEW games have crafting systems that make you "feel" like a crafter.
I could carry on for many many more paragraphs about how we have lost the RPG in MMORPGs, but I think you get my point here. Granted, this is just one opinion, but....it is indeed my very firmly held belief that the MMORPG genre is dissolving into just an MMO genre which could have myriads of other letters attached to the end, but very FEW that can attach RPG there. We see MMOGs, MMOFPSs, MMOCGs, etc. We just see very FEW MMORPGs any more.
What we are really talking about here is the mainstreaming of a niche base of the overall gamer market. The MMO marketbase has actually evolved less moreso than its has completely changed.
WOW's casual appeal & successful marketing has brought in players that previously chose to play FPS, Console, and other casual game niches. The MMO market went from 1 million subs with EQ to over 12 million subs with WOW. Thats not an evolution...thats massive colizination of what was once considered a small corner of gaming.
Of course the new settlers of the MMO market are going to call for MMOs to be more like their FPS and console experience. They want MORE QUICKER with less focus on the "persona & relationship building in a virtual world" and more focus on "hack n' slash".
I'm glad that the MMO market is getting more exposure due to games like WOW that reduce the learning curve and take away most of the "teeth" that traditional MMOs have suffered from. BUT, my problem is the financial situation this has created for game companies. Now that we've redefined the MMO market as this big mish mash of gamers of all types and preferences.....not one single AAA publisher will touch a MMO project that doesn't appeal to a significant portion of this NEW MMO playerbase. The Indies are left to fill in that gap that now exists with low funding, outdated software / hardware, nightmare launches, and is in high risk of becoming vaporware.
As for the MMO "oldschoolers" talking about how they've grown up and are happy with the new MMO experience now that you have less time to "waste" figuring out what to do, etc. I offer a different opinion. As a business analyst by day, I'm told what to do, when to do it, and where to do it by my boss (several bosses actually). I have my laundry list of chores to do that I grind on most of the day. When I get home, I just want to do what I want to do. I want to be a successful artisan or miner, where I can sell my wares to the people out adventuring....and be sucessful enough doing so that I can make a little coin. I want to do something completely different than what I do in a normal days work.....and I want to do it with my friends in a perpetual environment.
Unless I reactivate my 12 year old UO account or limit my experience to a space ship avatar in a dull deep space environment....I don't have many options.
You guys are mixing trends with evolution. That's like mixing emotions with logic. Logic dictates that yes in the terms of the technical and development aspects of mmos, they have indeed evolved. But in order to look at it from a somewhat neutral standpoint, you have to be willing to set aside your emotional baggage for a moment and judge the genre as a whole.
Let's look at the acronym for the genre as a way to break it down in more measurable terms.
<>
I am happy with the hardware advancements that we have seen over the years but I'm not happy at all with the gameplay of the current crop of mmos.
Yes, let's DO look at the very NAME of the genre "MMORPG."
Massive
Multiplayer
Online
Role
Playing
Game
I see a lot of games filling the part of massive, multiplayer, and online.
I do NOT see a lot of games facilitating the role playing part of the acronym. Role playing doesn't just mean those supernerds that form huge guilds (or lots of small "family style" guilds) and have role playing events and what not....the ones that go around speaking in strange "accents" and dialects. No. That is only a small part of "role playing," and in my opinion, not a requirement for the gaming illusion of playing a role. Although, I must say...for me...those people add GREATLY to the environment in MMORPGs.
What facilitates a game that gives the illusion of role playing is this:
An immersive vast game world that "feels" like a "real" place where your character would live, work, battle, etc. Your character would fulfill a purpose in such a "world." This is almost totally missing from newer games, sadly, for multiple reasons. Most of today's games never let you "forget" you're sitting at your desk playing a game.
The communities are horrible with much "n00b" "yo momma" "that's so gay" type chat.
The "game" within the game....has become a gear chasing mini-game, of sorts. The conquest for gear, in many games, has trumped the adventure, the story, the "living out" of a "role" in the game world.
The game worlds are either restrictive and have invisible walls that prevent free roam adventuring, or....they are so restricted by levels that could reasonably hope to survive (risk is great...even VERY risky for death...but completely impossible and therefore restricted to certain levels...is not okay, imo). Conversely....NO risk is ALSO a crime when it comes to making a virtual world feel "real."
If your character has no house, tent, campsite, or place to call "home," unless you're playing a street bum....that's just ridiculous. Very few games have good player housing any more. I could name the ones that do on one hand. Not having player housing...is not conducive to role playing or feeling like you have a "place" in the game world.
If your character "works" for a living in this fantasy world....you know....has some way of making money to buy a beer at the local in game tavern....then that "job" should be compelling enough to suspend disbelief and therefore facilitate playing that role of a crafter or tradesman, if that is the profession your character has in the game world. Again....FAR TOO FEW games have crafting systems that make you "feel" like a crafter.
I could carry on for many many more paragraphs about how we have lost the RPG in MMORPGs, but I think you get my point here. Granted, this is just one opinion, but....it is indeed my very firmly held belief that the MMORPG genre is dissolving into just an MMO genre which could have myriads of other letters attached to the end, but very FEW that can attach RPG there. We see MMOGs, MMOFPSs, MMOCGs, etc. We just see very FEW MMORPGs any more.
I couldn't have said it any better....very good post.
To add from my post....the problem is that, quite frankly, a considerable portion of the current MMO market (made up of gamers from all types of tradional gaming generes) care less about living out a virtual life (with great riches and great risk) more than they care about seeing their toon do some cool move when they hit a skill button....or getting those over sized and "l337" looking shoulder piece.
Blizzard has brought these people in as part of the overall MMO Pie thats to be had by the big publishers.....and as a result has skewed the direction of development of where the traditional MMORPG genere was heading.
I have no problem with former Mario Sunshine players having an enjoyable experience in WOW. But where are we traditional MMORPG fans left to go?
This genre is dead and there's no decent games on the horizon.
MMOs are about to take the next step in evolution with Guild Wars 2. The trinity is gone. Quests as you know them are gone. The increasing leveling curve is gone. Grind is gone.
I voted somewhat myself and only didn't vote higher because the truth of the matter is far more mmorpg's are released that underwhelm than those that exceed expectations. Of course with frp being a hot button issue lately it will get blamed way more than it deserves to be blamed as most of the mmorpg's that fail do so for what I classify as one of two reasons.
One is a lack of credibility on the part of the dev houses, one day these guys will learn that using non disclosure agreements and end user liscensing agreements at the detriment to their players is not a good idea ever.
The second problem I have seen as a determining factor in many of the modern release mmo's failures is a lack of top tier talent, how many mmo's have you played that had annoying little bugs that lasted sometimes for well over a year?
For me satisfaction with the genre isn't exclusive to seeing games that I personally enjoy playing because I luckily don't have that flaw that I feel the need to "go all in", I don't play every mmorpg nor do I like every mmorpg that I would count as satisfactory, what I do look at though is how many games out there if I was into the content they have in game would I be glad to be a community member of. Unfortunately the list is heavily weighted against when it comes to games released.
In conclusion I just want to give a small list of games that I personally feel have done a good job leading the genre in a positive direction as well as some who have some work to do.
WOW,EVE,LOTRO,COH,GW,EQ2 are good examples of companies who if nothing else know the code they are trying to push and often deliver on what they promise the players and are awesome examples of value for dollar.
SWG,AOC,STO,CO,DF,MO,FE,WAR,DnL is another small sampling of games that should not be looked at by devs as how things should be done.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Originally posted by Jimmac The genre is headed in the wrong direction. Mass marketed, dumbed down game play. It's not that they can't make a fantastic mmorpg anymore. They just don't want to risk it.
Agreed and also I will add that the targeted customers of newly developed MMOs is not at all what could be termed "old school MMO fans", rather the MMO Publishers want a different kind of customer than the old MMOs attracted.
Hence why some of us feel as if we were abandoned as customers... because the simple truth is we were. It really is that simple.
The "MMO genre" is alive and well, and profitable, but for me it's dead. The second Age of MMOs has begun. Long live MMOs.
(I can't do anything to stop it nor do most players or Devs care, so even though I don't accept it so it is...what it is. There are a few of the old MMOs still around and I will play them until their servers get taken over by the big boys and shut down.)
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
This genre is dead and there's no decent games on the horizon.
MMOs are about to take the next step in evolution with Guild Wars 2. The trinity is gone. Quests as you know them are gone. The increasing leveling curve is gone. Grind is gone.
There's still hope.
But where is the community? Instancing the entire game relieves a MMORPG of alot of problems, but it leaves out the heart and soul of what many people made the move from console gaming to PC MMORPG games for.
If I wanted to play a game where i was the hero in my own little world....I'd play a RPG.
I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm completely disgusted with the way development of the current stream of MMO's has evolved, as I am occassionally capable of finding a game worth the time and effort, but to say these games come as often as I'd like would be a stretch. I mentioned in a post yesterday that I believe WoW and the games that tried to mimic their success have set the genre back ten years, so as far as I'm concerned we're discussing the devolution of MMO's. We've gone from one extreme to the other, where the goal had been creating virtual worlds, to creating an experience that can be "fun" for everyone. Another sad truth is that trying to include everyone in this genre has essentially "dumbed it down", and forced or encouraged developers to produce for lowest common denominator. That being said, I can't argue that some of these games in the past five years have been "fun", but that "fun" wasn't a lasting enjoyment; merely a glimpse of what could have been.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Originally posted by Copeland This genre is dead and there's no decent games on the horizon.
MMOs are about to take the next step in evolution with Guild Wars 2. The trinity is gone. Quests as you know them are gone. The increasing leveling curve is gone. Grind is gone. There's still hope.
But where is the community? Instancing the entire game relieves a MMORPG of alot of problems, but it leaves out the heart and soul of what many people made the move from console gaming to PC MMORPG games for.
If I wanted to play a game where i was the hero in my own little world....I'd play a RPG.
Player Communities in MMOs (as good as they have been in the past) have also ended up being a double edged sword as far as MMO Publishers are concerned, and some Players feel the same way to be honest. Example... the community of SWG from alpha testing through current day, it's overall and complete history.
MMOs are not run by Players, they are run by MMO Publishers and Players never have had any "rights" per se as far as protecting their interests. Only the combined effects of Players coming together as Communities offered Players any real ability to influence MMO Publishers to change things. Some Player Communities in past MMOs have had good success in "encouraging" Devs to change certain things in certain ways.
But Devs don't always like to be "encouraged" to do things if it isn't their own idea first... and neither do the Investors that own the MMO genre (even though we Players pay for the MMOs we own nothing really, not even our accounts in most MMOs). MMOs are now designed to diminish the effect Player community has upon a MMO as much as possible. The MMO Publishers just let Players *think* or *believe* they support player community when they truthfully do not.
The current Bosses of the MMO genre do not want players to form "community" in a MMO.... because they want each Player to go directly to the MMO Publisher to solve their problems. It's all about control and profits. Player Communities in MMOs are viewed as liabilities, not as we Players see them as assets. Player Community will only be a shadow of the past in new MMOs because the MMOs are being designed to limit community.
But no MMO Marketer, Developer, or Public Relations Staffer will ever admit that.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
Comments
That's just stupid tbh. Anyone can build a decent system for half what you did. And rather than waste the extra $400-600, I'd rather just build another new system in 18-24 months.
I'm assuming you've missed the memo (if you're a U.S. citizen) that we're in a bit of an....oh.....depression? I also see that you're 30 years old and may or may not have a family, children to raise, teenagers, young adults entering college....etc., etc. You say 850 dollars like it's pocket change, and while that is extraordinarily cheap for a gaming machine...it's not a matter of people "being cheap." It's a matter of life, bills, and responsibilities for some people.
Now...I say that, but I do upgrade my machine pretty much annually FOR gaming. However....that doesn't mean that everyone is able to do so.....which is why the games that don't require the latest hardware....are more successful / popular. Like you, I love the latest technology and the greatest graphics. Love, love, LOVE. BUT.....if that focus on graphics means the developers focus LESS on game play....then I'm all for saying "make the graphics less a priority.
Just my two cents.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I kinda laugh when I read about people talking about how $600 is a lot of money to buy a computer. First off a fricken PS3 is around $400 (I think) and you get barely anything that you get out of a computer. A good vid card now a days go for around $400. All that is still cheap considering we spent around $4500 on a 486dx2 66 with a 1x cd-rom back in the days. Ya and the worst part is that in a matter of a year it was already slow. A $600 machine now a day's still last you for a while.
That whole paragraph roll into my next topic of people who play MMO's/Computer games now a days. When I started out you played games on your computer because you were, well a geek. When MMO's came out you played with people that were actually computer geeks and "loved" computers. It has now changed were every idiot out there plays them. That has the whole misconception of a Mature player now on MMO's. I don't mind grouping with kids if they are 14 and love computers and understand what they are doing. I rather group with them then some 19 year old who could care less and just started to play computer games like 6 months ago because now they could finally afford a cheap ass computer.
Everything really then shows how MMO's evolved. Gaming companies now a day's want to build games that are made for those 19 year old kids who barely understand what's going on. Or companies like Blizz turn a great game into a easy game made for idiots who want things fast. Vanguard was the last real fantasy game based on players who enjoy computers. Eve did a good job also to bring that audience in.
Also everyone has a fetish for F2P not understanding what it is all about. F2P is not Free. I think people think this way because they only play the first few weeks of a F2P game before they move on. People should play a game and pay if they like it. I think that makes sense. An example would be Atlantica online. I don't play it because its F2P, I play it because its good. I would still pay $14 a month for it. Personally for me LOTRO should have never gone F2P. It was a perfectly fine game with easily enough population.
I think the problem Snoop is that many people around today forget how much a computer use to cost. It literally cost you upwards of 4,000+ US dollars not to long ago. The best ran upwards of 5k! So though times are harder now, the cost is definitely much easier to swallow even in hard times. Imagine if comps still cost 4k+ dollars.
As of now, not really.
Once I have the thought. "I must travel to Yosun to join the Legendary Army in their raid against the Dark Lords!" instead of "I need to do this dungeon to get the legplates." I will actually feel amazed.
I don't know what part of Everquest you played. But my PoP Guild had many casual players (which was playing 2-4 hours as many were workers). I don't recall PoP raiding with fondness but there is exactly the same casual/hardcore balance imo.
(makes me laugh how hardcore people say EQ was, and the time it takes to level all the way to the cap is exactly the same- probably shorter these days in terms of EQ. Yes it was hardcore Pre PoP, but you're talking about 8 expansions since then..)
That's what makes the mechnics of some of today's MMOs so fun (at least in small doses for me as I don't like too much drama).
Some of my thought processes while playing a recent MMO this summer:
I must meet up with my party which is currently traveling to location X to meet up with the army that is preparing to attack territory Y.
Oh no, the defenders of territory Y has noticed the gathering and is mounting an impressive defense, change plans meet up with allies Z for plan B.
Oh no, we stumbled upon the marching enemy army and there's only 2 of us.....
There are some negatives of that particular MMO too
Ok, we're here at location X expecting an onslaught of raiders from territory Y. Where are the other defenders? Our allies have abandoned us?!?
What? You're abandoning your nation to join the dark side?
For another MMO, there was a dungeon/raid squad which went like:
Everyone, seperate into formation and let the tankers lead.
Magic users, do your attacks, others, hang back.
Gunners, do your attacks, magic users, hang back
Seperate into 2 groups at the fork and time our attacks to finish at the sme time
etc
Not really. 10 years ago I could've only imagined what kind of MMO would be out now. They should've stuck with the UO/DAoC/AC formula. I just want an actual "world" back and not a quest line. Back in the day you had to be social, because if you didn't you were in for a world of hurt by yourself. I don't get it..all this money going into these games..what is it going into?
It bothers me MMO's have gone for the graphics. The more glitz the game has, it becomes the next best thing to sliced bread. Nevermind the quality and storyline of the game.
Secondly are "instances". Far too many for present day MMO's. Bring back the old MMO's where you as a player had the opportunity to explore the world you were in, not just awaiting instances to whirl you away.
I Think that one of the key issues both good and bad is that warcraft opened up MMO's to a wider audience than what it was. with broadband in most countries being given away free with telephone contracts more people are online.
the problem is that with wow atracting the numbers it does every single mmo company is now wanting a slice of that cake and so every single sodding new mmo to hit the market is basically wow in a different costume.
LOTR is wow in tolkiens world, conan is wow in conan world, every new game is now based on the solo to end game before having fun. games that require you to look for a group or be a specific class are dead very few people like that sort of game style.
the other thing is the first mmo rose tinted glasses are gone, i log into a new game and i spend all of 5 minutes looking around and instantly get bored. its the same style of leveling same style of crafting same style of grouping. tank, dps, healer
there hasnt been any real inovation in mmos since well the start, thats noones real fault the few games that tried inovation such as swg suffered with a limited population and everyone knows money talks.
i will also add that PVP has ruined more games too many games and ill cite, startrek online and champions online neither of these games needed any form of pvp content. every game i have played has always balanced around pvp and not the pve. classes that are overpowered in pvp are nerfed and it ruins pve.
No.
I liked MMOs pre-wow, more than I like most the stuff post-wow, in general terms.
Great post, and I completely agree. There's so many little things that you thought would be standard that are just left out now. It's like developers decided that players want only combat, skills, and dumb easy quests and just focused on that.
When I play WoW, I usually listen to a book at the time simply because WoW is so brain dead that I don't even need to pay complete attention. And if I die, who cares there's hardly any death penalty.
I really miss the old 2d games where you could interact with almost EVERYTHING in the world. Little things like being able to sit in a chair, ring those wind chimes you see, or write in a book you find added so much to the game world. I really hope that a mainstream developer gives this back to us. We are in dire need of a game that embraces the virtual world philosophy.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I think I am more disapointed at how modern mmo's have stopped forcing the player to evolve than I am concerned with the current evolution of mmo's.
Long corpse runs with the gear you had to go grab from your bank becouse all your best stuff is still sitting in the bottom of Lower guk on your corpse, and you cant find any necros online willing to summon your corpses for a decent price?
That taught people to understand the limitations of their gear, skill, level, and aa's.
Name changes and server changes getting posted on official websites?
that taught people that they couldnt be a total jerk, cry baby, or bad player trying to get carried in content they shouldnt be doing unless they wanted to be blacklisted from the community becouse changing your name was pointless and creating a new character and getting it to current high end standards took forever.
Does that mean I want to go play a game with 1999 graphics and 6 active buttons to play my charcter? No not at all. However I wouldnt mind some non instanced shared content so that the community has some of the tools to police themselves.
Where are the days when reputation was greater than anything else?
In short, I am greatly disapointed at the current phase we are in of the mmo's genres evolution.
This genre is dead and there's no decent games on the horizon.
Make a difference!
Yes, let's DO look at the very NAME of the genre "MMORPG."
Massive
Multiplayer
Online
Role
Playing
Game
I see a lot of games filling the part of massive, multiplayer, and online.
I do NOT see a lot of games facilitating the role playing part of the acronym. Role playing doesn't just mean those supernerds that form huge guilds (or lots of small "family style" guilds) and have role playing events and what not....the ones that go around speaking in strange "accents" and dialects. No. That is only a small part of "role playing," and in my opinion, not a requirement for the gaming illusion of playing a role. Although, I must say...for me...those people add GREATLY to the environment in MMORPGs.
What facilitates a game that gives the illusion of role playing is this:
An immersive vast game world that "feels" like a "real" place where your character would live, work, battle, etc. Your character would fulfill a purpose in such a "world." This is almost totally missing from newer games, sadly, for multiple reasons. Most of today's games never let you "forget" you're sitting at your desk playing a game.
The communities are horrible with much "n00b" "yo momma" "that's so gay" type chat.
The "game" within the game....has become a gear chasing mini-game, of sorts. The conquest for gear, in many games, has trumped the adventure, the story, the "living out" of a "role" in the game world.
The game worlds are either restrictive and have invisible walls that prevent free roam adventuring, or....they are so restricted by levels that could reasonably hope to survive (risk is great...even VERY risky for death...but completely impossible and therefore restricted to certain levels...is not okay, imo). Conversely....NO risk is ALSO a crime when it comes to making a virtual world feel "real."
If your character has no house, tent, campsite, or place to call "home," unless you're playing a street bum....that's just ridiculous. Very few games have good player housing any more. I could name the ones that do on one hand. Not having player housing...is not conducive to role playing or feeling like you have a "place" in the game world.
If your character "works" for a living in this fantasy world....you know....has some way of making money to buy a beer at the local in game tavern....then that "job" should be compelling enough to suspend disbelief and therefore facilitate playing that role of a crafter or tradesman, if that is the profession your character has in the game world. Again....FAR TOO FEW games have crafting systems that make you "feel" like a crafter.
I could carry on for many many more paragraphs about how we have lost the RPG in MMORPGs, but I think you get my point here. Granted, this is just one opinion, but....it is indeed my very firmly held belief that the MMORPG genre is dissolving into just an MMO genre which could have myriads of other letters attached to the end, but very FEW that can attach RPG there. We see MMOGs, MMOFPSs, MMOCGs, etc. We just see very FEW MMORPGs any more.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I haven't really been satisfied.
What we are really talking about here is the mainstreaming of a niche base of the overall gamer market. The MMO marketbase has actually evolved less moreso than its has completely changed.
WOW's casual appeal & successful marketing has brought in players that previously chose to play FPS, Console, and other casual game niches. The MMO market went from 1 million subs with EQ to over 12 million subs with WOW. Thats not an evolution...thats massive colizination of what was once considered a small corner of gaming.
Of course the new settlers of the MMO market are going to call for MMOs to be more like their FPS and console experience. They want MORE QUICKER with less focus on the "persona & relationship building in a virtual world" and more focus on "hack n' slash".
I'm glad that the MMO market is getting more exposure due to games like WOW that reduce the learning curve and take away most of the "teeth" that traditional MMOs have suffered from. BUT, my problem is the financial situation this has created for game companies. Now that we've redefined the MMO market as this big mish mash of gamers of all types and preferences.....not one single AAA publisher will touch a MMO project that doesn't appeal to a significant portion of this NEW MMO playerbase. The Indies are left to fill in that gap that now exists with low funding, outdated software / hardware, nightmare launches, and is in high risk of becoming vaporware.
As for the MMO "oldschoolers" talking about how they've grown up and are happy with the new MMO experience now that you have less time to "waste" figuring out what to do, etc. I offer a different opinion. As a business analyst by day, I'm told what to do, when to do it, and where to do it by my boss (several bosses actually). I have my laundry list of chores to do that I grind on most of the day. When I get home, I just want to do what I want to do. I want to be a successful artisan or miner, where I can sell my wares to the people out adventuring....and be sucessful enough doing so that I can make a little coin. I want to do something completely different than what I do in a normal days work.....and I want to do it with my friends in a perpetual environment.
Unless I reactivate my 12 year old UO account or limit my experience to a space ship avatar in a dull deep space environment....I don't have many options.
I couldn't have said it any better....very good post.
To add from my post....the problem is that, quite frankly, a considerable portion of the current MMO market (made up of gamers from all types of tradional gaming generes) care less about living out a virtual life (with great riches and great risk) more than they care about seeing their toon do some cool move when they hit a skill button....or getting those over sized and "l337" looking shoulder piece.
Blizzard has brought these people in as part of the overall MMO Pie thats to be had by the big publishers.....and as a result has skewed the direction of development of where the traditional MMORPG genere was heading.
I have no problem with former Mario Sunshine players having an enjoyable experience in WOW. But where are we traditional MMORPG fans left to go?
MMOs are about to take the next step in evolution with Guild Wars 2. The trinity is gone. Quests as you know them are gone. The increasing leveling curve is gone. Grind is gone.
There's still hope.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I voted somewhat myself and only didn't vote higher because the truth of the matter is far more mmorpg's are released that underwhelm than those that exceed expectations. Of course with frp being a hot button issue lately it will get blamed way more than it deserves to be blamed as most of the mmorpg's that fail do so for what I classify as one of two reasons.
One is a lack of credibility on the part of the dev houses, one day these guys will learn that using non disclosure agreements and end user liscensing agreements at the detriment to their players is not a good idea ever.
The second problem I have seen as a determining factor in many of the modern release mmo's failures is a lack of top tier talent, how many mmo's have you played that had annoying little bugs that lasted sometimes for well over a year?
For me satisfaction with the genre isn't exclusive to seeing games that I personally enjoy playing because I luckily don't have that flaw that I feel the need to "go all in", I don't play every mmorpg nor do I like every mmorpg that I would count as satisfactory, what I do look at though is how many games out there if I was into the content they have in game would I be glad to be a community member of. Unfortunately the list is heavily weighted against when it comes to games released.
In conclusion I just want to give a small list of games that I personally feel have done a good job leading the genre in a positive direction as well as some who have some work to do.
WOW,EVE,LOTRO,COH,GW,EQ2 are good examples of companies who if nothing else know the code they are trying to push and often deliver on what they promise the players and are awesome examples of value for dollar.
SWG,AOC,STO,CO,DF,MO,FE,WAR,DnL is another small sampling of games that should not be looked at by devs as how things should be done.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Agreed and also I will add that the targeted customers of newly developed MMOs is not at all what could be termed "old school MMO fans", rather the MMO Publishers want a different kind of customer than the old MMOs attracted.
Hence why some of us feel as if we were abandoned as customers... because the simple truth is we were. It really is that simple.
The "MMO genre" is alive and well, and profitable, but for me it's dead. The second Age of MMOs has begun. Long live MMOs.
(I can't do anything to stop it nor do most players or Devs care, so even though I don't accept it so it is...what it is. There are a few of the old MMOs still around and I will play them until their servers get taken over by the big boys and shut down.)
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
But where is the community? Instancing the entire game relieves a MMORPG of alot of problems, but it leaves out the heart and soul of what many people made the move from console gaming to PC MMORPG games for.
If I wanted to play a game where i was the hero in my own little world....I'd play a RPG.
I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm completely disgusted with the way development of the current stream of MMO's has evolved, as I am occassionally capable of finding a game worth the time and effort, but to say these games come as often as I'd like would be a stretch. I mentioned in a post yesterday that I believe WoW and the games that tried to mimic their success have set the genre back ten years, so as far as I'm concerned we're discussing the devolution of MMO's. We've gone from one extreme to the other, where the goal had been creating virtual worlds, to creating an experience that can be "fun" for everyone. Another sad truth is that trying to include everyone in this genre has essentially "dumbed it down", and forced or encouraged developers to produce for lowest common denominator. That being said, I can't argue that some of these games in the past five years have been "fun", but that "fun" wasn't a lasting enjoyment; merely a glimpse of what could have been.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Player Communities in MMOs (as good as they have been in the past) have also ended up being a double edged sword as far as MMO Publishers are concerned, and some Players feel the same way to be honest. Example... the community of SWG from alpha testing through current day, it's overall and complete history.
MMOs are not run by Players, they are run by MMO Publishers and Players never have had any "rights" per se as far as protecting their interests. Only the combined effects of Players coming together as Communities offered Players any real ability to influence MMO Publishers to change things. Some Player Communities in past MMOs have had good success in "encouraging" Devs to change certain things in certain ways.
But Devs don't always like to be "encouraged" to do things if it isn't their own idea first... and neither do the Investors that own the MMO genre (even though we Players pay for the MMOs we own nothing really, not even our accounts in most MMOs). MMOs are now designed to diminish the effect Player community has upon a MMO as much as possible. The MMO Publishers just let Players *think* or *believe* they support player community when they truthfully do not.
The current Bosses of the MMO genre do not want players to form "community" in a MMO.... because they want each Player to go directly to the MMO Publisher to solve their problems. It's all about control and profits. Player Communities in MMOs are viewed as liabilities, not as we Players see them as assets. Player Community will only be a shadow of the past in new MMOs because the MMOs are being designed to limit community.
But no MMO Marketer, Developer, or Public Relations Staffer will ever admit that.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...