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Were dungeons more adventurous in the older MMORPG's?
MMO.Maverick
Member CommonPosts: 7,619
It's something that was talked about in the 'Old MMORPG's vs new MMORPG's' article that made me think back about it, namely this part:
“Train!” would sound out into an over-crowded dungeon. Immediately everyone with any sense would duck and cover and those unfortunate enough to be caught unawares- they were already dead. Dungeons in MMORPGs of yore were hotbeds of death, terror, and feverish excitement. The best way to describe places such as Blackburrow would be akin to a copper mine: the constant threat of death and the unstable behavior of mobs would see everyone clearing out periodically until the atmosphere was safe once again. Am I sexing the descriptions up in the name of nostalgia? I don’t think so.
Back in the old days, to die in an MMORPG was not just a jolly trip to a spirit healer; it was like opening a whole can of excrement covered worms. To enter a dungeon meant preparation and maturity. Everyone involved was drilled with almost military discipline. Before even thinking about entering somewhere, bind points were made, rations were stored, and maps were printed from fan sites. One slip up could spell a five hour naked corpse run and many angry interactions with people who were once your friend. Was such fear inducing adventure fun? Well yes it was and the immersion of it all was simply magical. How many of us tell tales of late night dungeon crawls from games a decade old compared to those who tell of how things got a bit hairy in Great Barrows?
I recognized it immediately, I had the same feeling about those EQ dungeons: the added risk and danger because of the highly agressive mobs and the troubles dying could bring you in did make a lot of those encounters stick more vividly in my memory than dungeons and raids in later MMORPG's.
So how is it with you people? Did the dungeons and encounters in older MMORPG's you played leave you with a more exciting experience than later MMORPG's you played?
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Comments
When I saw this I thought of the possibility of a Dragon Quest MMO.
But to be more serious, I have to agree that dungeons were more adventurous in the older MMOs, but that was because I was a younger boy and had more of an immature mind that would always go into daydreams. Now its hard for me to find any MMO without me saying "I'm doing this to get X so I can craft Y."
i can barely remember dungeons in newer games but i clearly remember naked corpse runs deep into kael drakkal or equestrielle the corrupted camping my corpse.
the barrows in DAoC as well as darkness falls... were some of the best PvE experiences i have ever had...aside from exploring in SWG.
While I still loved the idea of LDoN when it first came out and have many fond memories of adventuring within of course everyone will remember blackburrow or guk or other epic dungeons in EQ1 and other games which really did give them that great feeling of adventure, excitment and exploring. Then again, such memories may be a bit overly fantastical as often dungeons turned into fighting into a spot and then spending most of your time camping out there looking for specific mobs. Then again these dungeons also helped build communities.. folks would announce at least 15030 mins before they logged off and did their best to find a replacement. The one thing that I think WoW did completely wrong (and ensured I would never resub) was make their silly dungeon matching system.. uggh destroyed what little community the game had left (and this is coming from an RP server.. not that it means much).
I remember when LDoN first came out and what i liked about best was that I could run a dungeon on 30-60 mins yet some how seemed more fun and exciting than the lobby system of many of today's games.. However, now like many other older gamers I have a wife and a kid in addition ot the job so while I would love to say I would be the first to jump back into old school dungeons, and the one game I still play casually (VG) has them and they can be quite fun! I guess ideally I would love to see more overworld dungeons in games as well as a few instanced dungeons, however given the "must get it now" needs of modern gamers I just dont see ti happening successfully. And while we're on the topic of dungeonsI still think someone should explore the idea of asynchronus dungeon play for when you cant get everyone together.. no idea how it could be done but it might be a nice way of making dungeons doable with friends who might not necessarily be on at the same (then again these would have to be instanced).
Even earlier in DAOC than that... Tomb of Muire?
I think my all-time favorites were on the hib side, tomb of muire and treibh caillte.
The dungeons were cool in and of themselves, but even then we didn't go in their saying "lets just hang out because its cool" We went to spot X to get Y.
That was the only way to get decent gear at the time... And the fact that it was cool was a huge bonus...
Most dungeons these days are lackluster.
There are exceptions: In WoW I really liked wailing caverns, because with a good group you could pull off some really skilled play in there. I had a group and whenever we rolled new horde chars we would 3-4 man it starting at lvl 15. (usually so someone could get that lvl 17 bow *drool*). Requiem had one of the best dungeons I've played in years as well. The first dungeon you get to(although good luck finding a group now. Everyone is over the level, and there is no real n00b population) is something special. Moving platforms that you have to time and jump on to get across pits. Having to leap from balcony to balcony to get past obstructions. Puzzles and stuff that need to be completed to progress.
PS. I also hung out in tomb of muire at the xroads on my void spec eld, since that was the best farming spot at that level...
I completely agree with the OP, even with the time involved for corpse runs et cetera the risk of areas like that made it far more rewarding to me. Hell, even the Aviak village and Splitpaw were more memorable than more recent games' dungeons.
Inb4: you're in the minority now get used to what MMORPGs have become
Here is the thing.. The one thing that older open world dungeons added were a bit of chaos. Why? Because other groups of players were there. Sure your group might be doing great where you were, but If someone took a wrong turn with a train of mobs on his heels it could wreck your groups spot as well. Or if your puller managed to tag aggro from another groups pull and end up pulling more mobs than expected it could also mess things up.
Actually in all honesty modern instanced Dungeons are really more of a what a Dungeon Crawl would be like. Why? Well you actually enter the dungeon and make your way thru it instead of entering the dungeon and getting to a spot and sitting there camping that spot for hours on end in hopes of some static spawn dropping a rare item.
Now which system do I like better personally? Well I think open world dungeons like someone posted above build better communities. People might mess things up by pulling a random train from time to time but they also will alot of times come to your aide if you your puller pulls to much to handle.
Also Instancing ala WOW style has turned things like PUGs into a dirty abbreviation. In games like EQ, DAoC, Or even more modern ones like Vanguard that have open world dungeons people group with strangers alot more often and are usually overall more friendly.
Newer more instanced games people seem to stick with friends only.. There are multiple reasons for that. In an instanced dungeon you can only count on those people you know not to mess up.. Where as in an open world alot of things can cause bad issues to arise. Also it is considered rude to just up and leave your group in the middle of an instance, not so in an a more open world. I mean there are times I myself have turned down joining groups while waiting for a friend to log on. IN games like Vanguard or EQ, I would go join them for a bit and just let them know that I might have to leave in 30 minutes but that would give them time to maybe find someone else. With instances that can take 2 to 3 hours to finish, you really cant just leave due to the fact certain friends log in. Its funny in alot of those pick up groups you actaully would make friends from time to time even if you were there only for a few minutes.
Right now I am to the point that I think instancing should be done mainly for story telling, or maybe a key mob here or there. But I think I have to say I like open world better in alot of ways. Those long camps waiting for said mob also meant socializing. Nowadays people join an instance get what they want or finish the instance and leave sometimes without so much as a goodbye.
How much of nostalgia is changes in the game and how much is changes in the player?
When you go back to old dungeons in old games, do they still feel the same as when you first played them?
While that works when talking about games in general, it doesn't work in your specific use.
If I went back to EQ1 the dungeons wouldn't be as fun, because i have moved on and EQ1 isn't as interesting to me anymore.
However, if I got interested in a new game and the dungeons created as much excitement and trepidation as the EQ1 dungeons did when I was playing it regularly, then yes, it would be just as rewarding.
There was a lot we grew past in gameplay in EQ1 such as XP loss, but that feeling of having something to lose in the dungeons is still welcome in my eyes and I wish today's dungeons were half that exciting.
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I miss the danger and excitement. I do not miss sharing the spawns with others... so I'm torn.
Of course they were.
But is also how are designed and that have a ton to do with the gameplay, for example people in today mmo market call "raid" to join an instance with 10 pals, in older mmo's we were in open dungeons with 70 people all figthing vs that dungeon finding spots, looking for groups, crawling in or just getting trained by others players trying to save their ass.
So older dungeons were designed as a living entity in which you wont know what will happen because each time that dungeon will be filled with differents players ( which are the ones that give life to that dungeon ), today dungeons are just a theme park attraction where you always know what will happen after the first ride.
That pretty much sums up older mmos vs newer mmos in general: greater risk, greater player interaction, the element of the unknown and the feeling of success being that much sweeter.
Players who haven't experienced the older mmo's in their pomp will simply put it down to 'nostalgia' but sadly for them, they have missed out on some of the greatest experiences in mmo's.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
it was about the people you were with and not just the "me me me, mine, mine, mine!!!!" nonsense that happens in todays dungeon/raids.
A good amount of the content was just tank and spank with insermountable add spawns. the content is better now the social interaction is far worse.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Rock you just hit the nail on the head...
I would also add that people were also more willing to bring in other people... as I said earlier PUGging was alot more acceptable and common place. Which meant you usually made alot more friends.
what dungeons where you in...I remember spawn camping, mob training, people bitching and bugging you till you left because this was their guilds dungeon. Love the rose covered glasses. Nothing more adventurous than seeing 40 people running around killing everything in sight because they were grinding out a level.
Yep, old school MMO dungeons where much better than todays. Not only becuase of everything the OP says but also because if you did manage to get an epic drop then it would last you at least a month of play before you got anything better.
Nowadays you can comfortably pop 2 levels a day - in 5 days you've outgrown the weapon/armour/trinket and you don't really need an epic anyway because the content is easily defeated with autoattack with basic equipment.
I constantly get critisized by my mates for stating: "It's all to easy now" but it is - and great features like this, dungeon running, is now a thing of the past.
Now it's: Quest: 'deliver this letter and you get an epic and 10000 exps' or you can go dungeon running which will take you hours and get an item which pales in comparison to the quest item. Oh, and gl with the exps.
And capping exps for fighting a single creature which is 5+ levels above you (a real challange) so you only get 5% more exps than if you fought a same level creature... So even if you try and make the game harder/riskier for yourself your still not rewarded.
It feels like MMO's nowadays are specifically designed for snooze playing - get the tv on and just glance at the pc screen from time to time... quick tabtarget and autoattack and your back to the tv again. The most time I spend looking at the screen is when I'm running to or from quest NPC's or locations. Even that's boring now as I can have 10 same level mobs hitting me and run through them all - the drop off rate is so fast they don't even get me down to 1/2 health. So again, point in the direction, autorun, back to tv.
Right or wrong? Who cares... it just ain't fun anymore - and not because of the game play, its because of what they've done to the gameplay. I sometimes wish they'd started with this 'easy mode' gameplay. That way I would have thought "Hmm, this is crap" and never got into them in the first place.
WoW:Cat will see mini games to try and get over the poor game play. Equally you could save yourself some cash and go here:
http://www.kongregate.com/
ditto DF trains could be realy nasty but sure was fun to watch one chase someone lol
Just like the classic retro mmo hater that you are you blow up the 1-2% of the bad stuff in older mmos and completely avoid all the good.
Gratz, you win the internet.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
sounds like you are the same in reverse.
How so, I've already stated that newer dungeons have better content.
Its the social interaction that suffers.
That is a fact my friend... Cross server dungeon queues = the end of social interaction in todays dungeons.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
could be your comments on social interaction....which frankly me mine etc were rampant in the older games also. If you were in the right guild in the older games you did not see it and in the older games you had to be in the right guilds to be in the right places, but the way that people in older games treated people outside of their circles was just the same as people treat each other today. But todays games, until endgame in most cases, are less about the guild and more about personal achievement.
It is people with their rose colored glass looking back that seem to think the social environment was better then.
Competitive pve is not a bad thing.
There were things you could have done in those situations.
I was in a smaller guild in EQ and through social skills made an agreement to play in certain areas at specific times.
Again social interaction.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
well I am glad your singluar experience invalidates the experience of all the others that have posted and reposted about the social woes of the older games. Carry on oh god of the rocks.
I would have to disagree with you Horus. Now dont get me wrong Older games like EQ did have some competition that came along with how they were built. Which did lead to some guilds becoming overall asshats. However overall the gaming community was much friendlier and more helpul.
When you say newer games are geared toward being more self rewarding pretty much. What that breeds is greed and the whole ME ME ME ME ME MINE MINE attitude that is rampant in more modern post WOW games.
As for content being better in more modern games. I can agree to that to some extent. Go out and kill X number of mobs quests though are way to overabundent and that it kills off my desire to read alot of content anymore. I know I will go into a game these days and want to learn the lore of the world and try to actually read the content and usually end up stop doing it by level 10 due to the fact that the quests just are there to generate pointless mob killing. Where as in games like EQ you just went out and had a good time with friends to get the same effect you in essense made your own adventure. No handholding required.
I am going to agree with Rockgod on this one. I remember the first time going into a dungeon in UO as well as DaOC. In UO someone attacked my friend and we immediately took him on and chased him out. In DaOC, we chatted with another group while a spawn came up and had already decided on an order to take it down.
That is what, IMO, made those games better. The dungeon wasn't exactly the same each time BECAUSE of the people in it and that you had to deal with them one way or another. Most of the times it worked out well and I made friends etc.
I am not friends with anyone who I played WoW with because of something social that happened in the game.. I am still on contact with many old UO and DAoC folks.
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