Also the only battleground where you can summon giant monsters is alterac valley, and the summoning wasn't even originally implemented. Are you trying to say gw1 takes credit for the whole concept of summoning monsters? Sorry mmorpgs have been doing it since long before anet was even established.
I think you really aren't understanding the conversation at all. I didn't fall into any trap, i directly stated that wow did not take alterac valley from gw1. Which is true. Again you are seeing what you want to see, not what is actually said. The question was paraphrasing from what you said. You were insinuating that wow took summoning monsters from gw1, I directly said that was not the case. Just like if you said elephants could fly, and I said elephants can not fly. And then you said "lol you don't know anything about elephants because you even addressed the question of whether they could fly".
I wrote: WoW introduced their version of GW's GvG after GW's launch. The one with two bases and something to be summoned in the middle? -Straight out of GW.
Was I trying to say that GW invented summoning monsters - No.
In GW, is there monster summoning in the middle? -No.
What is the equivalent? -Flag stand.
What I am really insinuating is that Blizzard copied the whole basis of GvG - not just summoning monsters. CTF is still CTF even if the "flag" is changed to a "tomatoe" and Catch the Chicken (Quake) and Oddball (Halo) are essentially the same gamemode but with different names.
What are the similarities between GvG and Alterac Valley?
Map has bases for both teams
NPCs protect those bases
objective is to kill the opposing team's tough NPC or "boss" - general for WoW, guild lord for GW
the boss is protected by tougher than average NPCs - marshals for WoW, bodyguards for GW
there are mechanics in place to reduce indefinite "feeding" - reinforcements for WoW, morale for GW
something in the middle that if you hold it, you will get an advantage
Both are so similar that same kind of tactics are used! i.e. race or zerging straight for the NPCs and the boss NPC.
GW did this first. You state that WoW didn't copy Alterac Valley from GW. You go to even lengths to declare this true. How can you be absolutely, positively, 100% certain that Blizzard was NOT inspired by GW's GvG when designing Alterac Valley?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
You have to define hardcore. Are you talking about Min-Maxers? Are you talking about old school MMO players? Are you talking about completionists? What exactly am I answering?
In all cases, yes. There are bound to be some of these in nearly every game out there. Problem is, GW2 still isn't a real MMO. It's DDO but better. It's a glorified hub game. It will probably do just as well as it's predecessor did. Gamers of all types I'm sure. I won't be playing it though. I'm an old school gamer type. The lack of massive worlds and continuity turns me off completely.
Have you read anything about GW2? From what I get it's anything but HUB-based and has massive "worlds" and loads of continuity thanks to dynamic events.
You have to define hardcore. Are you talking about Min-Maxers? Are you talking about old school MMO players? Are you talking about completionists? What exactly am I answering?
In all cases, yes. There are bound to be some of these in nearly every game out there. Problem is, GW2 still isn't a real MMO. It's DDO but better. It's a glorified hub game. It will probably do just as well as it's predecessor did. Gamers of all types I'm sure. I won't be playing it though. I'm an old school gamer type. The lack of massive worlds and continuity turns me off completely.
Are you sure?.
I'm an 'oldschool' player and i'm a 'hardcore' pvper and I will be trying it, admittedly only for it's pvp aspect.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
You have to define hardcore. Are you talking about Min-Maxers? Are you talking about old school MMO players? Are you talking about completionists? What exactly am I answering?
In all cases, yes. There are bound to be some of these in nearly every game out there. Problem is, GW2 still isn't a real MMO. It's DDO but better. It's a glorified hub game. It will probably do just as well as it's predecessor did. Gamers of all types I'm sure. I won't be playing it though. I'm an old school gamer type. The lack of massive worlds and continuity turns me off completely.
DDO and GW1 were close together but DDO and GW2? -In light of the information that has been released, I don't think so.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
You have to define hardcore. Are you talking about Min-Maxers? Are you talking about old school MMO players? Are you talking about completionists? What exactly am I answering?
In all cases, yes. There are bound to be some of these in nearly every game out there. Problem is, GW2 still isn't a real MMO. It's DDO but better. It's a glorified hub game. It will probably do just as well as it's predecessor did. Gamers of all types I'm sure. I won't be playing it though. I'm an old school gamer type. The lack of massive worlds and continuity turns me off completely.
Wow looks like you couldn't even be bothered to even watch the video manifesto.....
If you bothered to do any research AT ALL you would know that you know pretty much zero about GW2.
I apologize for what im about to do, taking this a bit off topic. But im kinda tired of seeing this behind people's reasoning for why they believe that GW2 is not going to have enough content to keep people busy. This statement which im quoting froim this thread struck a nerve with me:
"I don't really agree that it is a break from the mold though, to me it is doing exactly what wow has done, but to a lesser extent because it isn't as well funded and doesn't use the same payment model."
Now when i read a statement like this i read the basic message as: GW2 isnt profitable enough to have similar content/quality as a sub based mmo due to lack of revenue. Now granted they referenced WoW which has enough content that most people never bother with most of it, instead skipping to the end game leaving most of there content underutilized and wasted in many cases(a shame really). But i still see the point as being one of people simplifying there reasoning down to Profit=Content. Fair enough. I ran some numbers and using some very basic math where i only took into account the most likley player base for GW2(GW1 players) and assuming that they will be releasing an expansion a year later(though it could happen at 6 months given there precedent with GW1 expansions). So if only former GW1 players buy GW2 and they only release the original game for the first year, then arenanet will be looking at $350,000,000 in game sales alone(not counting CE, or CS options or merchandise). That alone makes this game just as profitable as a sub based game with 1.5 million subs(rounding down). How many content filled mmo's have breached 1.5 million subs and kept them for a solid year? And again this is only counting former GW1 players. There are many people who either didnt like or never played GW1 who have every intention of picking up GW2 so clearly my $350 million dollar figure is low balling it significantly.
Hell if they only reinvest a third of that $350 million, your trying to tell us they couldnt create tons of content out of $100+million? For most mmo's(sub or otherwise) that is more than the cost of there entire game development. Seems to me, as long as they dont screw this up between now and launch, money shouldnt be a concern for them, and by all accounts there doing great so far.
Also on the content for pve front, id like to repost something i put down elsewhere on the forum:
For those of you concerned about a lack of content, i think i can answer your concerns. Now the standard quest system is clearly out so it isnt so easy to make direct comparisons based on that. However i have gone through the list of Warhammers PQ's and they have 500 Public Quests in game as of this point (being year 2 of its existence). Now if you account for the fact that half of these PQ's are for each faction, a charachter in WAR has the possibility of experiencing 250 (aprox. estimate) possible PQ's. That being said im aware that the vast majority of players sadly stuck to quests and pvp rather than pq's so not alot of players actually played near that many public quests, but its merely for content comparison sake that i offer the reference.
On top of that there are clear differences between PQ's and Dynamic Events in terms of replayability and possible outcomes. If we asume that Dynamic Events average out to 3 stages or "chains" similar to WAR's PQ's (we have just as much reason to assume it could be more as we do less) then with a simple pass/fail variable per stage/chain, we are looking at a possible 4 outcomes per Dynamic Event which leads to each DE having the replayability of 4 PQ's.
Arenanet has mentioned that they are looking at having 1600 DE's in game as of now/launch. Using the above example of conversion in terms of content/replayability, that would be the equivalent of 6,400 Public Quests(assuming of course your getting a different outcome every time you attempt a Dynamic Event).
Now again compare the fact that your looking at 1600 Dynamic Events(accessible to all players) at launch for GW2, vs. 250 Public Quests(playable per faction) in WAR during the second year of its lifespan. I know this is all just math and theory, but it does seem to indicate to me that lack of content is the least of my concerns.
I was addressing only 1 aspect of Pve in the above, we still have no idea how much content we will have in terms of player storyline or dungeons, but if the above is any indication, i again see no reason to believe that this game will not have enough in it for the hardcore PVE player.
Your figures are off. 6million people didn't buy gw1, it was 6 million box copies total across all campaigns. Obviously a lot of people bought every release in the series.
You also forget the fact that sub mmos also have box sales + subscriptions.
Anyway anet has used this payment model before, and their first game had very little content relative to an mmorpg. This one will have more content, but they still won't be able to keep up with how quickly hardcore players eat through content. Nor does their game have intuitive end game pve. 5man dungeons won't cut it.
I admit from the beginning that my figures are off. However you clearly didnt check the math and instead made assumptions. There is no way i or anyone else can possibly know how well GW2 will do. Its all based on theory. And yes im aware that not everyone bought every expansion(which if they didnt, they have little right to complain about lack of content) for GW1, but they did already make 350 million (lowball figure yet again due to not including merch and cash shop options or money from CE upgrade) on a game that cost relative pennies to make(the initial bar for success acording to arenanet devs was 250,000 players back during beta) from 7 million boxed copies of the game. The only overestimation i made possibly with this given how ive lowballed all my figures with arenanet is a factor we just simply dont know, so i cant/dont account for it. We have no idea how many players bought how many expansions. That being said, i only included an estimate on the preinstalled base of customers. I did not include all the people who have never played GW1 who will buy GW2, because i also dont have access to those figures either. No one does. But to asume GW2 will do worse than GW1(as fond of it as i am) is an assumption even you have to recognize as foolish.
Had you bothered to check my math btw, you would have realized that i had in fact counted in the cost of the initial $50 purchase of the game on top of the monthly fee's for subscription gamers. The number that comes up is actually a bit over 1.5 million subscriptions but i rounded down to actually sway the number a bit away from arenanet's favor. I lowballed all my numbers this way and yet arenanet still comes out looking very profitable with there B2P model, comparing to the very top sub based games in terms of profit. I will do you the favor of showing my math.
GW2: $50 per 7 million players=$350 million (again doesnt include money from CE, merchandise, and cash shop) 7 million player figure also doesnt include GW1 players who bought additional expansions(variable likely to drive number down) or Players new to the franchise interested in GW2(variable likely to drive number up) since these are both unknowns i simply dismissed them as cancelling each other out. If you have a better formula or more info, let us know.
Normal sub based mmo: $15 a month for 12 months/1 year=$180+$50 for box purchase of game= $230 per player. 1500000 multiplied by $230 per player= $345,000,000 or slightly less than GW2's likley $350 million.
Also people's idea's on content in terms of quantity are a joke. In most mmo's, people tend to rush to end game so they can repeat the same few dungeons over and over and over again and then they go on and on about how thats alot of content. It isnt alot of content. Your just repeating the same content ad nauseum. WoW is an excellent example of this. Oh sure the game does have tons of content. Possibly more than any other, but most of it is underutilized in favor of repeating the same things again and again or being passed up on the way to end game because it was deemed inefficeint as a means to get to end game.
I played GW1 as a hardcore Pve'er (with a dash of pvp here and there) for over 3 yrs as my main game. You know what i didnt find myself doing much? I didnt find myself doing a whole lot of repeating the same thing over and over again. Despite my playing the game for years, my hall of monuments isnt all filled up(i refused to grind). I only repeated content i already did if i had a friend that needed help on something, or if i wanted to complete it on hard mode or if i was working on one of my alts. The content was by no means lacking. Hell 90% of the game is desighned to be for a max lvl charachter. Ive never played any other mmo type game that had as much "end-game" content. They are building on this with there charachter/difficulty scaling in GW2 which is going to increase the longevity at end game a great deal as well. All this talk about how it wont have enough content because its B2P or some other excuse is just people using incredibly flawed arguments to feel less ripped off by there sub based mmo's or being insecure about the future of there own favorite, or simply trolling. It isnt just about how much content your game has, but about how much content you want to play.
Dinh you claimed that you played high end pvp in guild wars but you'd never go into detail about it. Give me some evidence that you played high pvp, talk about your matches in detail along with the combat system. Better yet give me some evidence that you'd played guild wars. Show me a screenshot of your character in a high level area saying "Hi this is RobertDinh", along with your guild's ranking and personal ranking if you have played two of guild war's high end pvp. A video would be nice if you have any. I want to see some solid evidence to know if you have any credibility. Do not try to dodge it, do not try to make excuses. Show me your credentials.
I love it when people like you think you are entitled to people going out of their way just to convince you. I personally don't care about you whatsoever, you either have an understanding for games or you don't, it doesn't matter to me either way.
Please do not dodge my request. Please show me detailed proof of your extensive experience in guild wars high end pvp.
Sorry buddy, you aren't really entitled to anything.
You are just making excuses. Say what you want but I can only assume that you have not played guild wars pvp or guild wars for that matter. I bet you do not even know the names of the two types of guild wars high end pvp. Well one type since the other one was already mentioned. Whenever you talk about pvp in guild wars you have never gave detailed descriptions in your criticisms. Only mentioning how "slow" or "not very skillful" it was. I bet you only watched videos of guild wars pvp and that gave you an idea how the pvp was, playing it is a lot different than watching.
You do not see me criticizing world of warcraft's pvp because I do not play that game, so I have no right to talk about it. If you have not played guild wars' pvp or guild wars in general you have no right to talk about it. Same goes for everyone else who criticizes a game they have not played. And please stop throwing out names of other mmorpgs to make yourself sound more credible. You are like those people who mention names of famous people to make themselves feel above everyone else whether they know them or not.
There are likely plenty of different types of harcore player. Some of these will find something positive in GW2 and some will not. It's the same with RP'ers, some will find some features to work with/around and others will not.
- completionists, min/max'ers, etc
There's an interesting attempt to define Casual vs Hardcore here:
I'd finally like to add that although my focus has been on rethinking game designs for the casual space, the points made are equally important in any space. Hardcore may be a badge of honor amongst dedicated gamers but, as more and more people play games, it's worthwhile to reevaluate our assumptions. How many hard-core tropes build honest challenge and how many are simply lazy design that alienate market share? The casual space may have much to learn from its predecessors, but that's not to say it doesn't have a few important lessons to impart of its own.
Since hardcore can mean lots of different things, its hard to guess but judging based on the current info I'd say this game will not be for dedicated PvE players:
no real healer
no raiding dungeons
ultra fast paced gameplay
no leveling curve
Above will for sure please pvp players but I highly doubt it will please some PvE players looking for a challenging MMO.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Since hardcore can mean lots of different things, its hard to guess but judging based on the current info I'd say this game will not be for dedicated PvE players:
no real healer
no raiding dungeons
ultra fast paced gameplay
no leveling curve
Above will for sure please pvp players but I highly doubt it will please some PvE players looking for a challenging MMO.
Riiiiight because the holy trinity is the epitome of challenge and tactical thinking. Just because something is not holy trinity doesn't mean it's not challenging, widen your mind a little think of the number of games that are extremely challenging and aren't the holy trinity (hint: the majority).
Since hardcore can mean lots of different things, its hard to guess but judging based on the current info I'd say this game will not be for dedicated PvE players:
no real healer
no raiding dungeons
ultra fast paced gameplay
no leveling curve
Above will for sure please pvp players but I highly doubt it will please some PvE players looking for a challenging MMO.
Wow looks like you really looked into GW2 not.
No real Healer - Ok true but this is a dependency on the old fashioned trinity. It also means that the party has a fail linkage. That is the healer leaves the party will not pass or struggle to complete the raid or dungeon or whatever. Each person can self heal in GW2. Self heals are nothing new. They are in pretty much every MMO.
No raiding dungeons -Ok so yeah... They have already said they will. Its a carry over feature from GW. Its not new to the series.
Ultra fast paced gameplay - Lets just cut to it. You have never played GW and if you have you certainly never played pvp or any sort of speed clear, vanquish run or Guardian mission particularly in Cantha. have you even seen the Gamescom footage? Active dodging and active cover as in you really have to dodge or you will get hit. Casting on the move... I would recommend you check it out properly. I can give you the links you need if you want.
No levelling curve - Nope no dreadmill. This is game that stays profitable by box sales. Grinding level treadmills harm sales of this game. They don't need to slow your advancement to keep you subbed for longer. They do however need you to enjoy it. hence no grind but plenty of challenge and suprises.
So are you saying that dedicated platers only like grindy clique games that are clones of every other MMo out there. Stale bread will keep you alive but its still stale bread.
Well you are right about it not pleasing some PVE players though. Its unrealistic to expect that they could please everyone. but challenging I think you will need to revise when its released. Difficulty and challenge rating is something that is different to everyone.
i don't think hardcore players will have a problem , well some will, but thats not because they are hardcore its because they are addicted.
the big puzzled question in my mind is how would addicted gamers recieve GW2.
often whats people complain most about is also whats keep them playing. A pattern where people complain about grind , but when given an option not to they find things to easy. When struggling to reach a hard goal they keep on playing , but when finding an easy way they loose interest. For my part its the unsolved puzzled, the unfinished buisness that makes me come back to a game, not the solved case, the achived goal.
I call that part the addiction. others call it sense of achivement, but i know its in the core an addiction (for my part anyway).
I remember back in the days of WAR hype, where people was in awe about this uppcoming game , i began wondering. And every time a new feature was mentioned, including spin about how easy it would make things i was thinking "what is then going to feed the addiction!"
to make a game very causual frindly does not exclude having parts that is the fokus and joy of hardcore elite players. GW1 showed that , war showed that , many games have done that.
the hard thing is to feed the addicted while catering for the causals.
Since hardcore can mean lots of different things, its hard to guess but judging based on the current info I'd say this game will not be for dedicated PvE players:
no real healer
no raiding dungeons
ultra fast paced gameplay
no leveling curve
Above will for sure please pvp players but I highly doubt it will please some PvE players looking for a challenging MMO.
Wow looks like you really looked into GW2 not.
No real Healer - Ok true but this is a dependency on the old fashioned trinity. It also means that the party has a fail linkage. That is the healer leaves the party will not pass or struggle to complete the raid or dungeon or whatever. Each person can self heal in GW2. Self heals are nothing new. They are in pretty much every MMO.
No raiding dungeons -Ok so yeah... They have already said they will. Its a carry over feature from GW. Its not new to the series.
Ultra fast paced gameplay - Lets just cut to it. You have never played GW and if you have you certainly never played pvp or any sort of speed clear, vanquish run or Guardian mission particularly in Cantha. have you even seen the Gamescom footage? Active dodging and active cover as in you really have to dodge or you will get hit. Casting on the move... I would recommend you check it out properly. I can give you the links you need if you want.
No levelling curve - Nope no dreadmill. This is game that stays profitable by box sales. Grinding level treadmills harm sales of this game. They don't need to slow your advancement to keep you subbed for longer. They do however need you to enjoy it. hence no grind but plenty of challenge and suprises.
So are you saying that dedicated platers only like grindy clique games that are clones of every other MMo out there. Stale bread will keep you alive but its still stale bread.
Well you are right about it not pleasing some PVE players though. Its unrealistic to expect that they could please everyone. but challenging I think you will need to revise when its released. Difficulty and challenge rating is something that is different to everyone.
Let me clearify it a bit.
I'm not saying the holy trinity is the end of all. If you don't go the trinity road there is a better way to do it you know complete freedom: you create your character choose your starting stats and then skill him the way you like him to be, e.g. sandbox style.
Personally I really believe the healer is a very important class because a good healer can change the outcome of a fight.
I never played GW I thats true but looked forward to this game till they released information about no level curve, death penalty and stuff like that. Cleary; I don't know if this game will please dedicated pve players but personally jujding I really doubt it. Note I don't think it will be as hand holding and linear as Tor and Casualclysm.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I'm not saying the holy trinity is the end of all. If you don't go the trinity road there is a better way to do it you know complete freedom: you create your character choose your starting stats and then skill him the way you like him to be, e.g. sandbox style.
Personally I really believe the healer is a very important class because a good healer can change the outcome of a fight.
I never played GW I thats true but looked forward to this game till they released information about no level curve, death penalty and stuff like that. Cleary; I don't know if this game will please dedicated pve players but personally jujding I really doubt it. Note I don't think it will be as hand holding and linear as Tor and Casualclysm.
Open sandbox world would be pretty awesome. I could foresee some issues with that though. The scope of the content such as events would need to be much larger to cater to a broader skill set. With classes you are channeling peoples damage, conditions, aggro, area control and others down a restricted window that can have a max or min effect on encounters. With true sandbox this would be incredibly difficult to achieve due to completely open scope of skills. I am not saying its not possible but GW2 takes a rather large leap in this direction. Dynamic scaling is the technology that will ultimately make this possible.
It would make the game more "Oblivion" like, which isn't a bad thing but would be too great a jump for the existing GW fanbase. Its a sequel to an extremely succesful predecessor so it needs to remain familiar.
Personally I don't agree with the whole dedicated healer deal. I stopped using them in GW when Ritualists came into the equation. They basically made healing in my teams purely a support action only. This meant I l could focus on massive damage pressure in PVE and basically steamroll encounters.
Healing classes are by skill function re-active. That is they are only required after the damage has occured. Its like a never ending game of catchup. I prefer to limit the damage before it happens in order to reduce my dependency of the healers and create more space for offence. Besides if the enemy mob is having to spend skills on heling they are not attacking my team. Once they hit this slope the battle is decided and I have the upper hand. The protective side of monks at least from GW has been folded into other classes like elementalist (When they release the earth skills I guess we will see).
Healing classes aren't a bad thing its just part of a trinity that now does not belong in GW2.
Linear level progresson is an anti-grind measure. In other MMO's it takes an increasing amount of time to level. Why? Sure there is the content to give you the xp and the challenge is there but ultimately you just wanna get to max level hence the dreaded treadmill. What is to be gained by stretching it out? Well most MMO games are subscription based so the reason should already be apparent.
Again death penalty is a break from the traditional gamestyle. Death penalties in traditional mmo's incur usually a damage penalty / damage taken penalty and a financial penalty. So isn't enough that the player is dead and has to tread all the way back to fight the foe over from scratch but has to make it increasingly difficult to do so. The usual answer to this is items for consumable to remove the effect, maybe a cash shop item or just plain not play for a period till the penalty is done with. How is this in ANY way a good thing? Punishing people for trying isn't really the way to go.
Challenging encounters should always be challenging but cheallenging encounters that do nothing but cost time, money and frustration are not good things to have in a game. This of course is in direct opposition with pretty much every system in MMO's. I for one am sick of avoiding fellowship quests of my level in LoTRO because I know that if I try to solo it I am gonna get stomped and basically screw me up for 5min. I think its time for a change.
You are way off on the difficulty curve thing though. It would be a mistake to assume that GW2 will be "Easy". The intro game will be easy and the personal story will ramp up in difficulty as you progress. The dynamic events are all of varying difficulty and get harder especially when events start stacking on events as they said happen. Expect to get creamed unless you are very very good. Then there is the dungeons which will be the cream of the crop. They have said that they will have a twist to them. I am betting some sort of randomisation or maybe internal event progression.
Linear... No chance. Its the closest you can get to sandbox currently I guess. You don't have to do the personal story even. You can just run around making your mark on the world in the events system and levelling up through events.
But hey this is just my take on it. I do have experience in GW and other MMO's and I think GW2 is the real deal. It heralds changes that will alter the MMO landscape forever. And its about time too!
i don't think hardcore players will have a problem , well some will, but thats not because they are hardcore its because they are addicted.
the big puzzled question in my mind is how would addicted gamers recieve GW2.
often whats people complain most about is also whats keep them playing. A pattern where people complain about grind , but when given an option not to they find things to easy. When struggling to reach a hard goal they keep on playing , but when finding an easy way they loose interest. For my part its the unsolved puzzled, the unfinished buisness that makes me come back to a game, not the solved case, the achived goal.
I call that part the addiction. others call it sense of achivement, but i know its in the core an addiction (for my part anyway).
I remember back in the days of WAR hype, where people was in awe about this uppcoming game , i began wondering. And every time a new feature was mentioned, including spin about how easy it would make things i was thinking "what is then going to feed the addiction!"
to make a game very causual frindly does not exclude having parts that is the fokus and joy of hardcore elite players. GW1 showed that , war showed that , many games have done that.
the hard thing is to feed the addicted while catering for the causals.
That's a good way of putting it. Basically, how will a sense of accomplishment be maintained if the content is:
a) difficulty curve is not steep enough in mobs, DEs.
b) too much support in the form of reduced death penalty, travel portals in place.
c) Group team dynamics and builds does not require detailed analysis to overcome mobs eg no healers.
d) insufficient or ceiling to degree of being rewarded: Everyone gets karma, money, xp equally if they contribute sufficiently for medals in DEs. No gear differentiation.
e) goals/rewards are made clearer by the scout-system, map with DE announcements, reduces challenges such as map-reading, memorisation of travelling around content effectively.
f) non-exclusive end-game dungeons does not differentiate achievement/in game progress from other players.
Defintely seems there is a sub-category of hardcore gamer that will not be catered to directly in PvE for GW2.
So far GW2 meets all my criteria. As for Armor, i'm pretty sure from what i've seen so far that there will be plenty of unique looking armor to differentiate us all. I'm quite glad that i won't be playing GearScore.
I consider myself to be a hardcore solo-PvEer, since the vast majority of time I spend in an MMO is indeed soloing. And my take is that GW2 looks like a perfect match for my sensibilities.
Dinh you claimed that you played high end pvp in guild wars but you'd never go into detail about it. Give me some evidence that you played high pvp, talk about your matches in detail along with the combat system. Better yet give me some evidence that you'd played guild wars. Show me a screenshot of your character in a high level area saying "Hi this is RobertDinh", along with your guild's ranking and personal ranking if you have played two of guild war's high end pvp. A video would be nice if you have any. I want to see some solid evidence to know if you have any credibility. Do not try to dodge it, do not try to make excuses. Show me your credentials.
I love it when people like you think you are entitled to people going out of their way just to convince you. I personally don't care about you whatsoever, you either have an understanding for games or you don't, it doesn't matter to me either way.
Please do not dodge my request. Please show me detailed proof of your extensive experience in guild wars high end pvp.
Sorry buddy, you aren't really entitled to anything.
You are just making excuses. Say what you want but I can only assume that you have not played guild wars pvp or guild wars for that matter. I bet you do not even know the names of the two types of guild wars high end pvp. Well one type since the other one was already mentioned. Whenever you talk about pvp in guild wars you have never gave detailed descriptions in your criticisms. Only mentioning how "slow" or "not very skillful" it was. I bet you only watched videos of guild wars pvp and that gave you an idea how the pvp was, playing it is a lot different than watching.
You do not see me criticizing world of warcraft's pvp because I do not play that game, so I have no right to talk about it. If you have not played guild wars' pvp or guild wars in general you have no right to talk about it. Same goes for everyone else who criticizes a game they have not played. And please stop throwing out names of other mmorpgs to make yourself sound more credible. You are like those people who mention names of famous people to make themselves feel above everyone else whether they know them or not.
I've played gw at a level that far exceeds 99.9% of the people that played it. Just because you think you are entitled to something doesn't mean you are. It isn't my job to satisfy people that are not objective about a game. My criticisms are blunt and to the point, you do not even have to delve into ultimately minor details when the reality of it is the game as a whole was slow and lacked the depth of an mmorpg. If you want to think slow paced pvp with limited movement and 1 skillbar is godly go right ahead. But it is sorta just like those WoW pvers who think they are good at games and exaggerate how much skill is required in the game that they specifically play. If you glorify something you are successful at it is like glorifying yourself, and I see it happen all of the time with communities playing games with low skill caps. Everyone wants to pretend they are good, but the reality of it is they tend to get crushed by the people that play the truly skillful games. So yea gw1 pvpers think the game was epic and chess-like, but relative to mmorpg pvp it was just a 1dimensional breeze.
Originally posted by Nailzzz
Originally posted by RobertDinh
Originally posted by Nailzzz
I apologize for what im about to do, taking this a bit off topic. But im kinda tired of seeing this behind people's reasoning for why they believe that GW2 is not going to have enough content to keep people busy. This statement which im quoting froim this thread struck a nerve with me:
"I don't really agree that it is a break from the mold though, to me it is doing exactly what wow has done, but to a lesser extent because it isn't as well funded and doesn't use the same payment model."
Now when i read a statement like this i read the basic message as: GW2 isnt profitable enough to have similar content/quality as a sub based mmo due to lack of revenue. Now granted they referenced WoW which has enough content that most people never bother with most of it, instead skipping to the end game leaving most of there content underutilized and wasted in many cases(a shame really). But i still see the point as being one of people simplifying there reasoning down to Profit=Content. Fair enough. I ran some numbers and using some very basic math where i only took into account the most likley player base for GW2(GW1 players) and assuming that they will be releasing an expansion a year later(though it could happen at 6 months given there precedent with GW1 expansions). So if only former GW1 players buy GW2 and they only release the original game for the first year, then arenanet will be looking at $350,000,000 in game sales alone(not counting CE, or CS options or merchandise). That alone makes this game just as profitable as a sub based game with 1.5 million subs(rounding down). How many content filled mmo's have breached 1.5 million subs and kept them for a solid year? And again this is only counting former GW1 players. There are many people who either didnt like or never played GW1 who have every intention of picking up GW2 so clearly my $350 million dollar figure is low balling it significantly.
Hell if they only reinvest a third of that $350 million, your trying to tell us they couldnt create tons of content out of $100+million? For most mmo's(sub or otherwise) that is more than the cost of there entire game development. Seems to me, as long as they dont screw this up between now and launch, money shouldnt be a concern for them, and by all accounts there doing great so far.
Also on the content for pve front, id like to repost something i put down elsewhere on the forum:
For those of you concerned about a lack of content, i think i can answer your concerns. Now the standard quest system is clearly out so it isnt so easy to make direct comparisons based on that. However i have gone through the list of Warhammers PQ's and they have 500 Public Quests in game as of this point (being year 2 of its existence). Now if you account for the fact that half of these PQ's are for each faction, a charachter in WAR has the possibility of experiencing 250 (aprox. estimate) possible PQ's. That being said im aware that the vast majority of players sadly stuck to quests and pvp rather than pq's so not alot of players actually played near that many public quests, but its merely for content comparison sake that i offer the reference.
On top of that there are clear differences between PQ's and Dynamic Events in terms of replayability and possible outcomes. If we asume that Dynamic Events average out to 3 stages or "chains" similar to WAR's PQ's (we have just as much reason to assume it could be more as we do less) then with a simple pass/fail variable per stage/chain, we are looking at a possible 4 outcomes per Dynamic Event which leads to each DE having the replayability of 4 PQ's.
Arenanet has mentioned that they are looking at having 1600 DE's in game as of now/launch. Using the above example of conversion in terms of content/replayability, that would be the equivalent of 6,400 Public Quests(assuming of course your getting a different outcome every time you attempt a Dynamic Event).
Now again compare the fact that your looking at 1600 Dynamic Events(accessible to all players) at launch for GW2, vs. 250 Public Quests(playable per faction) in WAR during the second year of its lifespan. I know this is all just math and theory, but it does seem to indicate to me that lack of content is the least of my concerns.
I was addressing only 1 aspect of Pve in the above, we still have no idea how much content we will have in terms of player storyline or dungeons, but if the above is any indication, i again see no reason to believe that this game will not have enough in it for the hardcore PVE player.
Your figures are off. 6million people didn't buy gw1, it was 6 million box copies total across all campaigns. Obviously a lot of people bought every release in the series.
You also forget the fact that sub mmos also have box sales + subscriptions.
Anyway anet has used this payment model before, and their first game had very little content relative to an mmorpg. This one will have more content, but they still won't be able to keep up with how quickly hardcore players eat through content. Nor does their game have intuitive end game pve. 5man dungeons won't cut it.
I admit from the beginning that my figures are off. However you clearly didnt check the math and instead made assumptions. There is no way i or anyone else can possibly know how well GW2 will do. Its all based on theory. And yes im aware that not everyone bought every expansion(which if they didnt, they have little right to complain about lack of content) for GW1, but they did already make 350 million (lowball figure yet again due to not including merch and cash shop options or money from CE upgrade) on a game that cost relative pennies to make(the initial bar for success acording to arenanet devs was 250,000 players back during beta) from 7 million boxed copies of the game. The only overestimation i made possibly with this given how ive lowballed all my figures with arenanet is a factor we just simply dont know, so i cant/dont account for it. We have no idea how many players bought how many expansions. That being said, i only included an estimate on the preinstalled base of customers. I did not include all the people who have never played GW1 who will buy GW2, because i also dont have access to those figures either. No one does. But to asume GW2 will do worse than GW1(as fond of it as i am) is an assumption even you have to recognize as foolish.
Had you bothered to check my math btw, you would have realized that i had in fact counted in the cost of the initial $50 purchase of the game on top of the monthly fee's for subscription gamers. The number that comes up is actually a bit over 1.5 million subscriptions but i rounded down to actually sway the number a bit away from arenanet's favor. I lowballed all my numbers this way and yet arenanet still comes out looking very profitable with there B2P model, comparing to the very top sub based games in terms of profit. I will do you the favor of showing my math.
GW2: $50 per 7 million players=$350 million (again doesnt include money from CE, merchandise, and cash shop) 7 million player figure also doesnt include GW1 players who bought additional expansions(variable likely to drive number down) or Players new to the franchise interested in GW2(variable likely to drive number up) since these are both unknowns i simply dismissed them as cancelling each other out. If you have a better formula or more info, let us know.
Normal sub based mmo: $15 a month for 12 months/1 year=$180+$50 for box purchase of game= $230 per player. 1500000 multiplied by $230 per player= $345,000,000 or slightly less than GW2's likley $350 million.
Also people's idea's on content in terms of quantity are a joke. In most mmo's, people tend to rush to end game so they can repeat the same few dungeons over and over and over again and then they go on and on about how thats alot of content. It isnt alot of content. Your just repeating the same content ad nauseum. WoW is an excellent example of this. Oh sure the game does have tons of content. Possibly more than any other, but most of it is underutilized in favor of repeating the same things again and again or being passed up on the way to end game because it was deemed inefficeint as a means to get to end game.
I played GW1 as a hardcore Pve'er (with a dash of pvp here and there) for over 3 yrs as my main game. You know what i didnt find myself doing much? I didnt find myself doing a whole lot of repeating the same thing over and over again. Despite my playing the game for years, my hall of monuments isnt all filled up(i refused to grind). I only repeated content i already did if i had a friend that needed help on something, or if i wanted to complete it on hard mode or if i was working on one of my alts. The content was by no means lacking. Hell 90% of the game is desighned to be for a max lvl charachter. Ive never played any other mmo type game that had as much "end-game" content. They are building on this with there charachter/difficulty scaling in GW2 which is going to increase the longevity at end game a great deal as well. All this talk about how it wont have enough content because its B2P or some other excuse is just people using incredibly flawed arguments to feel less ripped off by there sub based mmo's or being insecure about the future of there own favorite, or simply trolling. It isnt just about how much content your game has, but about how much content you want to play.
I could spend my time showing you why your math is way off, but you already admitted your numbers are off, so why are you trying to make an argument with numbers you are admit are off?
For example not everyone pays full launch retail price for a game. Secondly, why do mmorpgs only get 1year of subscription factored in for them, when you are counting GW1's box sales from many many years.
Basically you aren't being objective, instead of interpreting the data accurately and then making an argument, you make an argument and then try to interpret the data to fit it.
From my very limited expereince in GW, (about 2 weeks), GW2 will have its fair share of hardcore players, just like every other MMO out there. IMO it will attract those that like to do a LOT of small scale PvP/PvE over and over and over sorta like the FPS crowd.
Although the combat mechanics differ greatly, PvP in games like WoW and GW2 remind me of all that time I spent playing CS, die, respawn, die, respawn continuously with nothing to gain or lose other than smack talking rights. I have no doubt that a hardcore group that enjoys that style of game play will be playing and enjoying the game from day one.
The hardcore crowd I wouldn't expect to see in GW2 are those who enjoy games like EVE or Darkfall, where you can lose something and players actually have an impact on the game world.
My favourite poster strikes back. But I think your math is odd at the very least. The fact is they sold over 6 millions of boxes. Assuming that it makes like 1,5 millions of people that played it (those are numbers given by skeptics of GW success) and the fact that PvE is a lot more popular than PvP your 99,9% sounds incredible surprisingly. Even if all those 1,5 millions played extensively in PvP, you were like in the top1500. Indeed you posses the great skills many can only dream about. I can only suspect that it was a result of having played mmorpgs that required understanding the concept of complex movement (jumping ftw) and being forced to use more than 8 skills simultaneously.
Comments
Wow irony...
You don't qualify anything you say. You don't provide any tangible proof for the outlandish claims you make.
Yet you expect your words to be accepted as gospel.
Its pretty clear to all here that you are a fraud and a hypocrite.
You are still entitled to your opinion of course. Just letting you know that your currency no longer holds value...
I wrote: WoW introduced their version of GW's GvG after GW's launch. The one with two bases and something to be summoned in the middle? -Straight out of GW.
Was I trying to say that GW invented summoning monsters - No.
In GW, is there monster summoning in the middle? -No.
What is the equivalent? -Flag stand.
What I am really insinuating is that Blizzard copied the whole basis of GvG - not just summoning monsters. CTF is still CTF even if the "flag" is changed to a "tomatoe" and Catch the Chicken (Quake) and Oddball (Halo) are essentially the same gamemode but with different names.
What are the similarities between GvG and Alterac Valley?
Map has bases for both teams
NPCs protect those bases
objective is to kill the opposing team's tough NPC or "boss" - general for WoW, guild lord for GW
the boss is protected by tougher than average NPCs - marshals for WoW, bodyguards for GW
there are mechanics in place to reduce indefinite "feeding" - reinforcements for WoW, morale for GW
something in the middle that if you hold it, you will get an advantage
Both are so similar that same kind of tactics are used! i.e. race or zerging straight for the NPCs and the boss NPC.
GW did this first. You state that WoW didn't copy Alterac Valley from GW. You go to even lengths to declare this true. How can you be absolutely, positively, 100% certain that Blizzard was NOT inspired by GW's GvG when designing Alterac Valley?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You have to define hardcore. Are you talking about Min-Maxers? Are you talking about old school MMO players? Are you talking about completionists? What exactly am I answering?
In all cases, yes. There are bound to be some of these in nearly every game out there. Problem is, GW2 still isn't a real MMO. It's DDO but better. It's a glorified hub game. It will probably do just as well as it's predecessor did. Gamers of all types I'm sure. I won't be playing it though. I'm an old school gamer type. The lack of massive worlds and continuity turns me off completely.
Have you read anything about GW2? From what I get it's anything but HUB-based and has massive "worlds" and loads of continuity thanks to dynamic events.
Are you sure?.
I'm an 'oldschool' player and i'm a 'hardcore' pvper and I will be trying it, admittedly only for it's pvp aspect.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
DDO and GW1 were close together but DDO and GW2? -In light of the information that has been released, I don't think so.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Wow looks like you couldn't even be bothered to even watch the video manifesto.....
If you bothered to do any research AT ALL you would know that you know pretty much zero about GW2.
I suggest you start here http://www.guildwars2.com/en/
There are plenty of threads here that will answer your questions
I admit from the beginning that my figures are off. However you clearly didnt check the math and instead made assumptions. There is no way i or anyone else can possibly know how well GW2 will do. Its all based on theory. And yes im aware that not everyone bought every expansion(which if they didnt, they have little right to complain about lack of content) for GW1, but they did already make 350 million (lowball figure yet again due to not including merch and cash shop options or money from CE upgrade) on a game that cost relative pennies to make(the initial bar for success acording to arenanet devs was 250,000 players back during beta) from 7 million boxed copies of the game. The only overestimation i made possibly with this given how ive lowballed all my figures with arenanet is a factor we just simply dont know, so i cant/dont account for it. We have no idea how many players bought how many expansions. That being said, i only included an estimate on the preinstalled base of customers. I did not include all the people who have never played GW1 who will buy GW2, because i also dont have access to those figures either. No one does. But to asume GW2 will do worse than GW1(as fond of it as i am) is an assumption even you have to recognize as foolish.
Had you bothered to check my math btw, you would have realized that i had in fact counted in the cost of the initial $50 purchase of the game on top of the monthly fee's for subscription gamers. The number that comes up is actually a bit over 1.5 million subscriptions but i rounded down to actually sway the number a bit away from arenanet's favor. I lowballed all my numbers this way and yet arenanet still comes out looking very profitable with there B2P model, comparing to the very top sub based games in terms of profit. I will do you the favor of showing my math.
GW2: $50 per 7 million players=$350 million (again doesnt include money from CE, merchandise, and cash shop) 7 million player figure also doesnt include GW1 players who bought additional expansions(variable likely to drive number down) or Players new to the franchise interested in GW2(variable likely to drive number up) since these are both unknowns i simply dismissed them as cancelling each other out. If you have a better formula or more info, let us know.
Normal sub based mmo: $15 a month for 12 months/1 year=$180+$50 for box purchase of game= $230 per player. 1500000 multiplied by $230 per player= $345,000,000 or slightly less than GW2's likley $350 million.
Also people's idea's on content in terms of quantity are a joke. In most mmo's, people tend to rush to end game so they can repeat the same few dungeons over and over and over again and then they go on and on about how thats alot of content. It isnt alot of content. Your just repeating the same content ad nauseum. WoW is an excellent example of this. Oh sure the game does have tons of content. Possibly more than any other, but most of it is underutilized in favor of repeating the same things again and again or being passed up on the way to end game because it was deemed inefficeint as a means to get to end game.
I played GW1 as a hardcore Pve'er (with a dash of pvp here and there) for over 3 yrs as my main game. You know what i didnt find myself doing much? I didnt find myself doing a whole lot of repeating the same thing over and over again. Despite my playing the game for years, my hall of monuments isnt all filled up(i refused to grind). I only repeated content i already did if i had a friend that needed help on something, or if i wanted to complete it on hard mode or if i was working on one of my alts. The content was by no means lacking. Hell 90% of the game is desighned to be for a max lvl charachter. Ive never played any other mmo type game that had as much "end-game" content. They are building on this with there charachter/difficulty scaling in GW2 which is going to increase the longevity at end game a great deal as well. All this talk about how it wont have enough content because its B2P or some other excuse is just people using incredibly flawed arguments to feel less ripped off by there sub based mmo's or being insecure about the future of there own favorite, or simply trolling. It isnt just about how much content your game has, but about how much content you want to play.
You are just making excuses. Say what you want but I can only assume that you have not played guild wars pvp or guild wars for that matter. I bet you do not even know the names of the two types of guild wars high end pvp. Well one type since the other one was already mentioned. Whenever you talk about pvp in guild wars you have never gave detailed descriptions in your criticisms. Only mentioning how "slow" or "not very skillful" it was. I bet you only watched videos of guild wars pvp and that gave you an idea how the pvp was, playing it is a lot different than watching.
You do not see me criticizing world of warcraft's pvp because I do not play that game, so I have no right to talk about it. If you have not played guild wars' pvp or guild wars in general you have no right to talk about it. Same goes for everyone else who criticizes a game they have not played. And please stop throwing out names of other mmorpgs to make yourself sound more credible. You are like those people who mention names of famous people to make themselves feel above everyone else whether they know them or not.
There are likely plenty of different types of harcore player. Some of these will find something positive in GW2 and some will not. It's the same with RP'ers, some will find some features to work with/around and others will not.
- completionists, min/max'ers, etc
There's an interesting attempt to define Casual vs Hardcore here:
@ Gamasutra - Evolving the Social Game: Finding Casual by Defining Hardcore ~ by Tony Ventrice
Six things that make a game hardcore:
Difficult controls
Overwhelming options
Prerequisite knowledge
Abstract memorization
Unclear goals
Unclear solutions
Six things that do not make a game hardcore:
Challenge
Trial and Error
Strategy
Theme
Repetition
Depth / Graduated objectives
In Conclusion
I'd finally like to add that although my focus has been on rethinking game designs for the casual space, the points made are equally important in any space. Hardcore may be a badge of honor amongst dedicated gamers but, as more and more people play games, it's worthwhile to reevaluate our assumptions. How many hard-core tropes build honest challenge and how many are simply lazy design that alienate market share? The casual space may have much to learn from its predecessors, but that's not to say it doesn't have a few important lessons to impart of its own.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Since hardcore can mean lots of different things, its hard to guess but judging based on the current info I'd say this game will not be for dedicated PvE players:
no real healer
no raiding dungeons
ultra fast paced gameplay
no leveling curve
Above will for sure please pvp players but I highly doubt it will please some PvE players looking for a challenging MMO.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Riiiiight because the holy trinity is the epitome of challenge and tactical thinking. Just because something is not holy trinity doesn't mean it's not challenging, widen your mind a little think of the number of games that are extremely challenging and aren't the holy trinity (hint: the majority).
Wow looks like you really looked into GW2 not.
No real Healer - Ok true but this is a dependency on the old fashioned trinity. It also means that the party has a fail linkage. That is the healer leaves the party will not pass or struggle to complete the raid or dungeon or whatever. Each person can self heal in GW2. Self heals are nothing new. They are in pretty much every MMO.
No raiding dungeons -Ok so yeah... They have already said they will. Its a carry over feature from GW. Its not new to the series.
Ultra fast paced gameplay - Lets just cut to it. You have never played GW and if you have you certainly never played pvp or any sort of speed clear, vanquish run or Guardian mission particularly in Cantha. have you even seen the Gamescom footage? Active dodging and active cover as in you really have to dodge or you will get hit. Casting on the move... I would recommend you check it out properly. I can give you the links you need if you want.
No levelling curve - Nope no dreadmill. This is game that stays profitable by box sales. Grinding level treadmills harm sales of this game. They don't need to slow your advancement to keep you subbed for longer. They do however need you to enjoy it. hence no grind but plenty of challenge and suprises.
So are you saying that dedicated platers only like grindy clique games that are clones of every other MMo out there. Stale bread will keep you alive but its still stale bread.
Well you are right about it not pleasing some PVE players though. Its unrealistic to expect that they could please everyone. but challenging I think you will need to revise when its released. Difficulty and challenge rating is something that is different to everyone.
i don't think hardcore players will have a problem , well some will, but thats not because they are hardcore its because they are addicted.
the big puzzled question in my mind is how would addicted gamers recieve GW2.
often whats people complain most about is also whats keep them playing. A pattern where people complain about grind , but when given an option not to they find things to easy. When struggling to reach a hard goal they keep on playing , but when finding an easy way they loose interest. For my part its the unsolved puzzled, the unfinished buisness that makes me come back to a game, not the solved case, the achived goal.
I call that part the addiction. others call it sense of achivement, but i know its in the core an addiction (for my part anyway).
I remember back in the days of WAR hype, where people was in awe about this uppcoming game , i began wondering. And every time a new feature was mentioned, including spin about how easy it would make things i was thinking "what is then going to feed the addiction!"
to make a game very causual frindly does not exclude having parts that is the fokus and joy of hardcore elite players. GW1 showed that , war showed that , many games have done that.
the hard thing is to feed the addicted while catering for the causals.
Let me clearify it a bit.
I'm not saying the holy trinity is the end of all. If you don't go the trinity road there is a better way to do it you know complete freedom: you create your character choose your starting stats and then skill him the way you like him to be, e.g. sandbox style.
Personally I really believe the healer is a very important class because a good healer can change the outcome of a fight.
I never played GW I thats true but looked forward to this game till they released information about no level curve, death penalty and stuff like that. Cleary; I don't know if this game will please dedicated pve players but personally jujding I really doubt it. Note I don't think it will be as hand holding and linear as Tor and Casualclysm.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Open sandbox world would be pretty awesome. I could foresee some issues with that though. The scope of the content such as events would need to be much larger to cater to a broader skill set. With classes you are channeling peoples damage, conditions, aggro, area control and others down a restricted window that can have a max or min effect on encounters. With true sandbox this would be incredibly difficult to achieve due to completely open scope of skills. I am not saying its not possible but GW2 takes a rather large leap in this direction. Dynamic scaling is the technology that will ultimately make this possible.
It would make the game more "Oblivion" like, which isn't a bad thing but would be too great a jump for the existing GW fanbase. Its a sequel to an extremely succesful predecessor so it needs to remain familiar.
Personally I don't agree with the whole dedicated healer deal. I stopped using them in GW when Ritualists came into the equation. They basically made healing in my teams purely a support action only. This meant I l could focus on massive damage pressure in PVE and basically steamroll encounters.
Healing classes are by skill function re-active. That is they are only required after the damage has occured. Its like a never ending game of catchup. I prefer to limit the damage before it happens in order to reduce my dependency of the healers and create more space for offence. Besides if the enemy mob is having to spend skills on heling they are not attacking my team. Once they hit this slope the battle is decided and I have the upper hand. The protective side of monks at least from GW has been folded into other classes like elementalist (When they release the earth skills I guess we will see).
Healing classes aren't a bad thing its just part of a trinity that now does not belong in GW2.
Linear level progresson is an anti-grind measure. In other MMO's it takes an increasing amount of time to level. Why? Sure there is the content to give you the xp and the challenge is there but ultimately you just wanna get to max level hence the dreaded treadmill. What is to be gained by stretching it out? Well most MMO games are subscription based so the reason should already be apparent.
Again death penalty is a break from the traditional gamestyle. Death penalties in traditional mmo's incur usually a damage penalty / damage taken penalty and a financial penalty. So isn't enough that the player is dead and has to tread all the way back to fight the foe over from scratch but has to make it increasingly difficult to do so. The usual answer to this is items for consumable to remove the effect, maybe a cash shop item or just plain not play for a period till the penalty is done with. How is this in ANY way a good thing? Punishing people for trying isn't really the way to go.
Challenging encounters should always be challenging but cheallenging encounters that do nothing but cost time, money and frustration are not good things to have in a game. This of course is in direct opposition with pretty much every system in MMO's. I for one am sick of avoiding fellowship quests of my level in LoTRO because I know that if I try to solo it I am gonna get stomped and basically screw me up for 5min. I think its time for a change.
You are way off on the difficulty curve thing though. It would be a mistake to assume that GW2 will be "Easy". The intro game will be easy and the personal story will ramp up in difficulty as you progress. The dynamic events are all of varying difficulty and get harder especially when events start stacking on events as they said happen. Expect to get creamed unless you are very very good. Then there is the dungeons which will be the cream of the crop. They have said that they will have a twist to them. I am betting some sort of randomisation or maybe internal event progression.
Linear... No chance. Its the closest you can get to sandbox currently I guess. You don't have to do the personal story even. You can just run around making your mark on the world in the events system and levelling up through events.
But hey this is just my take on it. I do have experience in GW and other MMO's and I think GW2 is the real deal. It heralds changes that will alter the MMO landscape forever. And its about time too!
That's a good way of putting it. Basically, how will a sense of accomplishment be maintained if the content is:
a) difficulty curve is not steep enough in mobs, DEs.
b) too much support in the form of reduced death penalty, travel portals in place.
c) Group team dynamics and builds does not require detailed analysis to overcome mobs eg no healers.
d) insufficient or ceiling to degree of being rewarded: Everyone gets karma, money, xp equally if they contribute sufficiently for medals in DEs. No gear differentiation.
e) goals/rewards are made clearer by the scout-system, map with DE announcements, reduces challenges such as map-reading, memorisation of travelling around content effectively.
f) non-exclusive end-game dungeons does not differentiate achievement/in game progress from other players.
Defintely seems there is a sub-category of hardcore gamer that will not be catered to directly in PvE for GW2.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
So far GW2 meets all my criteria. As for Armor, i'm pretty sure from what i've seen so far that there will be plenty of unique looking armor to differentiate us all. I'm quite glad that i won't be playing GearScore.
Archlinux ftw
I consider myself to be a hardcore solo-PvEer, since the vast majority of time I spend in an MMO is indeed soloing. And my take is that GW2 looks like a perfect match for my sensibilities.
no they wont. hardcore gamers hate fun.
/sarcasm_off
i'm pvX. im very satisfied with the pve reports so far. but i am looking forward to hearing about pvp.
I've played gw at a level that far exceeds 99.9% of the people that played it. Just because you think you are entitled to something doesn't mean you are. It isn't my job to satisfy people that are not objective about a game. My criticisms are blunt and to the point, you do not even have to delve into ultimately minor details when the reality of it is the game as a whole was slow and lacked the depth of an mmorpg. If you want to think slow paced pvp with limited movement and 1 skillbar is godly go right ahead. But it is sorta just like those WoW pvers who think they are good at games and exaggerate how much skill is required in the game that they specifically play. If you glorify something you are successful at it is like glorifying yourself, and I see it happen all of the time with communities playing games with low skill caps. Everyone wants to pretend they are good, but the reality of it is they tend to get crushed by the people that play the truly skillful games. So yea gw1 pvpers think the game was epic and chess-like, but relative to mmorpg pvp it was just a 1dimensional breeze.
I could spend my time showing you why your math is way off, but you already admitted your numbers are off, so why are you trying to make an argument with numbers you are admit are off?
For example not everyone pays full launch retail price for a game. Secondly, why do mmorpgs only get 1year of subscription factored in for them, when you are counting GW1's box sales from many many years.
Basically you aren't being objective, instead of interpreting the data accurately and then making an argument, you make an argument and then try to interpret the data to fit it.
From my very limited expereince in GW, (about 2 weeks), GW2 will have its fair share of hardcore players, just like every other MMO out there. IMO it will attract those that like to do a LOT of small scale PvP/PvE over and over and over sorta like the FPS crowd.
Although the combat mechanics differ greatly, PvP in games like WoW and GW2 remind me of all that time I spent playing CS, die, respawn, die, respawn continuously with nothing to gain or lose other than smack talking rights. I have no doubt that a hardcore group that enjoys that style of game play will be playing and enjoying the game from day one.
The hardcore crowd I wouldn't expect to see in GW2 are those who enjoy games like EVE or Darkfall, where you can lose something and players actually have an impact on the game world.
My favourite poster strikes back. But I think your math is odd at the very least. The fact is they sold over 6 millions of boxes. Assuming that it makes like 1,5 millions of people that played it (those are numbers given by skeptics of GW success) and the fact that PvE is a lot more popular than PvP your 99,9% sounds incredible surprisingly. Even if all those 1,5 millions played extensively in PvP, you were like in the top1500. Indeed you posses the great skills many can only dream about. I can only suspect that it was a result of having played mmorpgs that required understanding the concept of complex movement (jumping ftw) and being forced to use more than 8 skills simultaneously.