Originally posted by Oddities Yawn, more elitist nonsense. I get it, the reason why mmo are 100x more popular now is because they are 100x worse and people are idiots etc.
Sounds like you're just mad that your team didn't win.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I certainly agree overall with the OP, we have lost as much as we have gained.
Housing in old MMO’s was housing you wanted to use, these days its just a trophy storeroom. But I don’t agree with the Alliance /Horde language barrier being an issue, two fighting factions should not be able to talk to one another.
Fluff in the old days did give a more virtual world feeling, after all it was designed to be part of a virtual world rather than just a side game which is how they design them these days.
Achievement junkie is the name of the game these days and it’s easy to see where that mentality came from, consoles. But now we have social junkies on the horizon and I think they will have an even larger more detrimental effect on MMO’s and gaming.
I don’t agree with the OP on end game, modern MMO’s have the edge there though they can make huge mistakes like gated content.
Also I think PvP is better now purely because more MMO’s have some form of it. Many old MMO’s were PvE only, few today are. DAOC reigns supreme in MMO history for pvp, but that does not mean old MMO’s were better as a whole by any means.
I think it is hard to sum up old and new MMO’s with a score. There are elements of old MMO’s we really need bringing back, like the importance of grouping. But likewise there are elements we don’t want like huge death penalties.
When Meridon says we chose them parks (to paraphrase) over virtual worlds I don’t totally agree. Where were the new sand box MMO’s coming out that we could have joined? It was stay in your old game or nothing.
All this talk about nostalgia is nonsense, do people say that original Donkey Kong cannot be surpassed? No because the core game play has only just been added to and polished. Where as in MMO’s the game play had been changed radically to a new style which in many ways is poorer.
This tickled me from the replies:
“I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to attack or insult you.”
Under which the guys signature says: “My Color is Black, I value power, ambition and darkness. I love power at any cost”…and so on.
I think both old and new mmorpgs are good. I do prefer the old over the new, even if the old ones aren't as streamlined.
The old mmorpg to me:
You lived in the world, and story took precedence over combat. Some of the story was prewritten. But due to to lower budgets, most of the story was made up by experiences in the game. Things generally took longer to accomplish. This doesn't mean it was neccesarrily harder, but at the end of the line, when you accomplished something it felt more rewarding. Longer travel times, crafting procedures, exploration took longer(UI tools werent' as intuitive for directions), death penalties were more harsh(So player survival felt more vital). Imo an mmorpg is supposed to be a huge timesink, or neverending.
But this is just my opinion and WoW sub base pretty much puts my opinion in the minority.
The Newer mmorpg to me:
You play in the world, and combat seems more prevalent than story. A large portion of the story is fabricated by the devs. And there is less sandbox elements to most mmorpg. Things are not neccessarily easier, they just rarely take long to do. Due to it being less time consuming, it doesn't feel as rewarding due to low time consumption. Travel is too easy, crafting is usually simple, exploration is rather easy due to good better UI, death penalties arent' as harsh(good in a way, but also makes death seem like a small obstacle.
Even though I like the older way of mmorpg more. Sometimes the grind does aggravate me. But thats only on small occasions. When it does I simply log off and play offline rpgs. :)And continue in my mmo later on. I guess my idea of a perfect mmorpg. Would be one that focuses on story, has some timesinks, but also has superb UI and environment interaction, and well done combat.
This entire series was seen through the rose colored glasses of someone who views the older MMO as the holy grail of games, which is fine but lets be honest, this is one of the few places on the web where you're going to get majority support for those viewpoints. For as great as those games were back then there was also a lot of bad, bad enough that stuff like that wouldn't fly in today's games. But don't take my word for it, the proof is in the numbers. There's a reason why there was a mass exodus from EQ once WoW launched. There is a reason why these older games never reached even a million players. Heck even Everquest, the shining beacon for all the nostalgia folks, changed it's mechanics to the point where it's a shell today of what it once was, mainly for the reason to attract players. To use an sports term, Scoreboard.
Yes and there's a reason that since WoW released All mmos have sunk right back down to Pre-wow mmo sub levels.
Again WoW is the exception not the rule.
And what is that reason? An MMO developer these days knows going in that he/she cannot design a game similar to EQ circa 1999 and expect to get over 500k of subs. But that same developer knows that if he/she designs a game without some of that 'bang your head against the wall' limitations, then at least the game has a shot as a high number. You can look at something like crafting. Everyone says the older games had better crafting which is probably true, but that doesn't mean a ton of people want it. FFXIV has crafting that like reading a textbook, you think players are going to flock to that game because of it? Quite the opposite.
People like the old stuff because it introduced a genre and like everything else you never forget the first time of anything. But the bad stuff gets casually ignored, even praised as great game mechanics. A lot of players put up with that stuff not because it was great, it was because that's all there was. It wasn't like there were a ton of alternatives back in 1999-2000. Saying that EQ had revolutionary combat is downright laughable. I never knew that hitting attack, cast spell, taunt and parry were revolutionary. Saying end game content was great back then is laughable, where in EQ most fights came down to numbers and how much you can zerg the fight.
I'm not saying those games weren't great for what they were, but they were also hampered by the technology of the time. If people love those old games so much, why isn't games like AC and DAoC flooded with people? Maybe it's because even though you remember how great some of those games were, that doesn't mean you're going to put up with them again. I've learned the hard way that nostaliga only takes you so far (I probably retried EQ 4-5 times over a span of 8 years) and once that wears off, you're reminded of reasons why you quit the game initially.
The people that play now are different though, so your examples don't really fit in context, in my opinion. There are still many players, who played those old games, that like all that old stuff. But most of that old stuff is gone now, since the old games have tried to keep up with the newer games who are full of players who don't really care about that stuff.
What if I told you there are just as many players (if not more so) that played those games back them and do cherish the time they put in, but now would never go back to that style of game play. Everyone insults WoW's playerbase as kiddie and immature but there is a decent subset of players who play WoW who fit this description. There are lot of reasons for this, probably the biggest one is the same guy/girl who started EQ in 2000 is now 10 years older.
Your point about the playerbase being different now (which I believe is more the mentality is different) only highlights the fact that these series of articles was written by someone who doesn't share the mentality of the majority of people who play MMO's these days. I hesitate to even call it an article. It's more an op-ed piece that could be written by anyone who favors older games versus newer ones. The score will always be the same.
Absolutely, the Uber Leet Gear Crap needs to stop........I'm tellin ya, go back to player made gear is king, These companies need to really look at DAOC, Shrouded Isles Era. Player Crafted Gear, Spellcrafted, trinkets and capes, and the almighty Template that suited each individuals uniqueness of gameplay.
Not nostalgic, just the plain ole best part/era and MMO has ever had.
For me, the old MMO's offered something the new MMO's don't offer at all. It can be summed up in one word, choice. The new MMO's all lead you by the hand with a progression of quests which you really need to do to acquire the levels needed to get to end game. I guess the new players don't like freedom of choice, they want someone else to make all the decisions for them.
The new MMO's are all about how fast you can get to the end game, not experiencing the game itself. So imo anyone trying to support the new MMO's you just don't know what you are talking about.
New games tend to offer better graphics, controls and are generally better at tutorials or getting new players better acquainted with the game before sending them off into the world.
Older games tended to be more immersive and more fun. They also seemed to be more interactive. I still feel dissapointed that when a game does give me furniture of some kind to put in what ever residence I'm allowed I can't sit in it even though I could in a game back in 1997. Older games also seemed to give players more freedom not only in how they spent there game time but the games allowed them to be more expressive. Older MMO's allowed players to carve out a place for themselves in the game world instead of making you feel like you are just a visitor like newer ones do. UO is a good example of that freedom. You could own a home, where various amounts of social clothing over your armor to have what ever kind of look you wanted, dye those social clothes and your armor almost any color. You could focus on pratical skills or you could use some of the more obscure and semi useless skills. I had a detective in UO.... the template wasn't exactly practical but it was fun lol. I use to sit down in UO in my house or at a tavern in game with a friend and play chess some nights.
While we have taken some major steps forward in Graphics, coding and programing it just feels we have taken some huge steps back in creativity. The old games focused on giving players a world they would want to live in and explore. Newer games tend to focus on developing a means of retention out side of players enjoying there time in game.
Maybe thats it, older games tended to rely on the fun to keep you playing while newer games seem to be working on a means of getting you addicted in some way, shape or form without having to resort to or rely on fun lol.
In any case Older MMO's have the heart and soul thats lacking in newer ones and newer ones have the better graphics, coding/programing and tech. But this is of course just imho.
Absolutely, the Uber Leet Gear Crap needs to stop........I'm tellin ya, go back to player made gear is king, These companies need to really look at DAOC, Shrouded Isles Era. Player Crafted Gear, Spellcrafted, trinkets and capes, and the almighty Template that suited each individuals uniqueness of gameplay.
Not nostalgic, just the plain ole best part/era and MMO has ever had.
That was the largest number of grammatically incorrect typoes I have ever seen in an article, even on this site. Don't you guys have an editor. If I wanted to read poorly worded commentary I would've just skipped directly to the forums. And in the interest of not just bitching, I am sure you are a nice person and many people like you.
*editted for typo. haha on me.
Whoa, from this comment alone I can tell that I would probably loath you in the fleshh (extra h included just for you).
When I think of MMOs I have liked most, I agree with you and that the old ones win.
SWG pre-messing it up, DaoC, AO are all games still special to me and so much better than what is coming out nowadays, apart from Fallen Earth which I do like but to me FE has some old school aspects to it.
Meh. My only thought is 'if the older generations of MMOs are so great, then why do we have the new generations?"
And it isn't always about the money. Koei has been making several series of games targetted at a small number of people (Historical simulators). Every game I can generally think of that seeks to create this 'old game' feel has generally failed. (I am sure there is an exception). Even the niche players who want that game generally abandon them. *shrugs*
Playing: Heroes of Three Kingdoms Played: WoW, DDO, Second Life, Diablo II, Tried free trial: LoTR, Fallen Earth, EvE, Champions Online,
Old games win in Nostalgia Contest! Shocking victory! ....or not.
I looked at those old games back in the day, and their glaring flaws kept me from playing MMOs for years.
It's great that there are lots of different games, with different foci, so that folks who like different styles can go play what they want. But the 'Ours was the perfect way!' grousing gets old. All games have good points and problem issues. Find something that has some of the elements that you like and SUPPORT IT. Otherwise no developers will think those aspects worthwhile.
IF you wait around for the 'perfect game' MMO, you might as well take up lawn darts, 'cause it's not going to happen.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I get it, the reason why mmo are 100x more popular now is because they are 100x worse and people are idiots etc.
Is the genre more popular or is it WoW exclusively? Look at average subs before and after WoW... Virutally the same.
Of course the genre is more popular. You're talking about average subs spread across 3-4 titles in eq1 days vs. 100's of titles in addition to the 11m "exception" these days.
It simply amazes me how to this day not one company has created a game like some of the old ones. I am an old DaoC player and to this day I miss it. There is a reason why I do not go back though. The game needs to be updated with GUI and controls simple as that. If just one company took what daoc was, converted the EXACT SAME system of pvp INCLUDING all the CC that so many hate and gave it WoW's controls and then used the exact same dungeon system except make bosses more along the lines of variety of fights as WoW offers instead of everything being tank and spank you'd have a true game I would play forever.
In DaoC Darkness falls was possibly the greatest dungeon ever designed simply because it brought everything good about Pve and introduced pvp into it. Even df's seals were fun getting. The only thing I would change about that dungeon is once again giving the true bosses in there actual boss mechanics such as what WoW's dungeons are like, making some fights not just spam healing tanks to win.
So much memories of that game it's hard to believe post wow era some1 could not duplicate what daoc had just in an updated easier to play game. Daoc simply is not a game you can pick up and play if you've never played it. Even I when going back forget how to do a lot of things that newer games make much easier. I often wish I could create the game I KNOW would work but after looking at the difficulties of creating an mmo I know it is only a dream. Only hope I have of reliving the memories and fun I had in DaoC is matt firor's game. Lets hope he hasn't lost site like every company has done thus far.
Even if they came out with DoAC2 we would still be stuck having to play with WoWtard kids and Koreans. Can't wait for StarWars to come out but will have the same problem. Aion is a nightmare, can't find one single mature adult guild on two differant servers. Sigh.
One key thing that i think wasnt discussed, is the quality of players. One great thing about those old school MMOs were the people you not only played with, but socialized with. Todays quality of gamer has dropped dramatically. Gone are the days of well educated, well read people to whom manners were not a foreign concept. I dont want to generalize because there are some smart kids out there, but frankly there are far more egotistical chest beating adolescent heirarchy clinging social maladjusts floating in the shallow end of the gene pool these days.
Take a look at some of these posters, you wrote a decent piece, presented it well, and what happened? You had a bunch of ADD kids bash it for the fact you stepped on their toes. Thats right theyll bash you simply for the fact you didnt say what they wanted to hear. Thats right, they get angry if you dont give them what they want instead of making them work for it.
MMORPGs were great because you could not just relate to your fellow player, but you could empathize with them. You coexisted in a harsh world together, and the only way anyone was getting anywhere is if you stuck together and worked it out. Not so these days, for the most part, you can solo through anything, and most players dont give a rats patoot about their fellow gamers because they do not depend on them.
You can keep your Chuck Norris jokes, your d00d speak, your gratuitous hate speech and your selfish solo style games, those arent mmorpgs anymore anyway.
Frankly Im ashamed of the new school players and dont even like being clumped in with them anyway.
peace out, make sure you insult me with all the fervor you are famous for in your posts that follow after this new schoolers.
Winner winner, chicken dinner. This post is comical on so many levels that its a shame the poster is obviously too obtuse to realize it.
1. This whole myth of old school gamers being enlightened,well mannered,educated,pious,angels and todays gamers being the downfall of civilization needs to stop. Many of the same people you want to bestow sainthood upon are still playing, they havent left the genre. Ive played dozens of these games and met asshats in every one of them and helpful people in every one as well. With the exception of Wow I havent noticed any difference in the community from eq1 to Fallen earth. Even WoW, todays poster child among the old school fanatics for all thats wrong in the world of mmo's has plenty of quality people,players,and guilds. Im guessing those people sporting the rose colored spectacles trying to rewrite history have forgotten the kill stealing,deliberate training of people/camps/raids, ninja looting,content blocking,etc. They have forgotten the inane chatter that used to flow from the ooc channels. The people having long drawn out conversations that should have been taken to tells that acted like you stabbed their favorite dog for having the nerve to suggest they do just that.
2. You say you dont want to generalize then do not only that but proceed to insult and demean all the people you just lumped together. Well mannered indeed.
3. The op wrote a horrible opinion "piece" under the guise of a comparing old mmo's vs new mmo's. No one trashed him for liking old games vs new games. He was trashed because he tried to pass off an opinion piece in which his mind was already made up as a legit old vs. new comparison.
4. mmo simply means a game world where hundreds or thousands can play/inhabit together. rpg simply means assuming the role of another persona. Neither means forced grouping,forced interaction,forced interdependence and you people need to stop trying to hijack these words and redefine them for your own purposes.
5. Peace to you as well and thanks for proving everything you said about well mannered, quality gamers from the "olden days" being a myth.
1: you couldnt get more than 500k subs 10 years ago due to there not being that many people playing mmos. MMO's were dorky then and for anoraks. was it because the games werent good enough? ...no it was simply because the mainstream didnt even know they existed.
2: you prefer old games? you prefer new games? dont be silly....it's the actual style of the game you prefer! i slant towards old games due to the fact that i enjoy grind, danger and depth. i just cant find that in newer games, if i did i would sign up tomorrow
guys/girls put our opinions across by all means and explain why we prefer each generation/style, but dont waste time arguing who is right/wrong as there is no right/wrong!
lets make this world a better place! for you and for me and the en......sorry lost my train of thought for a min there!
Winner winner, chicken dinner. This post is comical on so many levels that its a shame the poster is obviously too obtuse to realize it.
1. This whole myth of old school gamers being enlightened,well mannered,educated,pious,angels and todays gamers being the downfall of civilization needs to stop. Many of the same people you want to bestow sainthood upon are still playing, they havent left the genre. Ive played dozens of these games and met asshats in every one of them and helpful people in every one as well. With the exception of Wow I havent noticed any difference in the community from eq1 to Fallen earth. Even WoW, todays poster child among the old school fanatics for all thats wrong in the world of mmo's has plenty of quality people,players,and guilds. Im guessing those people sporting the rose colored spectacles trying to rewrite history have forgotten the kill stealing,deliberate training of people/camps/raids, ninja looting,content blocking,etc. They have forgotten the inane chatter that used to flow from the ooc channels. The people having long drawn out conversations that should have been taken to tells that acted like you stabbed their favorite dog for having the nerve to suggest they do just that.
2. You say you dont want to generalize then do not only that but proceed to insult and demean all the people you just lumped together. Well mannered indeed.
3. The op wrote a horrible opinion "piece" under the guise of a comparing old mmo's vs new mmo's. No one trashed him for liking old games vs new games. He was trashed because he tried to pass off an opinion piece in which his mind was already made up as a legit old vs. new comparison.
4. mmo simply means a game world where hundreds or thousands can play/inhabit together. rpg simply means assuming the role of another persona. Neither means forced grouping,forced interaction,forced interdependence and you people need to stop trying to hijack these words and redefine them for your own purposes.
5. Peace to you as well and thanks for proving everything you said about well mannered, quality gamers from the "olden days" being a myth.
I couldn't agree with anyone more then this. Also like i've said after previous additions of this article it seems that this isn't really about old vs new as much as it is about UO/EQ vs WoW. I hate WoW and almost all that it has brought to this genre but I have to say starting off with games like DAoC things have been getting better and better. If you want a newer game that tried to have all that old stuff that was prevelant in EQ and UO you know corpse runs, long grinding an almost endless amount of "fluff" look at Vanguard. Wait though wasn't that kind of a huge flop? I wonder why... (mind you there migh have been more reason to this but still)
I will admit I do have a soft spot for the older games I played and i wish that some things would be the same as they used to but most of that comes down to the people.
In closing I'll ask this question if old games and the stuff they had in them are so superior why isn't there one I mean just one game that has all those elements that is a current success? I'm not saying it has to have a million subs I mean even just a couple hundred thousand.
Yawn, more elitist nonsense. I get it, the reason why mmo are 100x more popular now is because they are 100x worse and people are idiots etc.
Is the genre more popular or is it WoW exclusively? Look at average subs before and after WoW... Virutally the same.
Of course the genre is more popular. You're talking about average subs spread across 3-4 titles in eq1 days vs. 100's of titles in addition to the 11m "exception" these days.
Hundreds of mmos??? Dude there are like 20 mmos that make up majority of the mmo population. Certainly we aren't discussing f2p mmos where the populations are impossible to calculate.
Winner winner, chicken dinner. This post is comical on so many levels that its a shame the poster is obviously too obtuse to realize it.
1. This whole myth of old school gamers being enlightened,well mannered,educated,pious,angels and todays gamers being the downfall of civilization needs to stop. Many of the same people you want to bestow sainthood upon are still playing, they havent left the genre. Ive played dozens of these games and met asshats in every one of them and helpful people in every one as well. With the exception of Wow I havent noticed any difference in the community from eq1 to Fallen earth. Even WoW, todays poster child among the old school fanatics for all thats wrong in the world of mmo's has plenty of quality people,players,and guilds. Im guessing those people sporting the rose colored spectacles trying to rewrite history have forgotten the kill stealing,deliberate training of people/camps/raids, ninja looting,content blocking,etc. They have forgotten the inane chatter that used to flow from the ooc channels. The people having long drawn out conversations that should have been taken to tells that acted like you stabbed their favorite dog for having the nerve to suggest they do just that.
2. You say you dont want to generalize then do not only that but proceed to insult and demean all the people you just lumped together. Well mannered indeed.
3. The op wrote a horrible opinion "piece" under the guise of a comparing old mmo's vs new mmo's. No one trashed him for liking old games vs new games. He was trashed because he tried to pass off an opinion piece in which his mind was already made up as a legit old vs. new comparison.
4. mmo simply means a game world where hundreds or thousands can play/inhabit together. rpg simply means assuming the role of another persona. Neither means forced grouping,forced interaction,forced interdependence and you people need to stop trying to hijack these words and redefine them for your own purposes.
5. Peace to you as well and thanks for proving everything you said about well mannered, quality gamers from the "olden days" being a myth.
I couldn't agree with anyone more then this. Also like i've said after previous additions of this article it seems that this isn't really about old vs new as much as it is about UO/EQ vs WoW. I hate WoW and almost all that it has brought to this genre but I have to say starting off with games like DAoC things have been getting better and better. If you want a newer game that tried to have all that old stuff that was prevelant in EQ and UO you know corpse runs, long grinding an almost endless amount of "fluff" look at Vanguard. Wait though wasn't that kind of a huge flop? I wonder why... (mind you there migh have been more reason to this but still)
I will admit I do have a soft spot for the older games I played and i wish that some things would be the same as they used to but most of that comes down to the people.
In closing I'll ask this question if old games and the stuff they had in them are so superior why isn't there one I mean just one game that has all those elements that is a current success? I'm not saying it has to have a million subs I mean even just a couple hundred thousand.
Because nostalgia only takes you so far. Someone above asked why don't they just re-do DAoC with better graphics and WoW controls. They tried to do that, it's called Warhammer and it failed miserably, for a number of reasons. This goes back to my point about how everyone says that they love the old games, but that doesn't mean most would play them today. I'm sure there is a good amount of people that value those games and wish there was more like them today, but the fact of the matter is they represent such a small minority of the MMO playerbase that no developer wants to take that kind of risk. Even games that have tried to be more 'hardcore' have failed recently (Vanguard, Darkfall). On top of all this, the fact of the matter is you can have basically a reskin of EQ circa 1999 and I bet it won't have as many players as you think, mainly because it will never be able to recreate what you experienced the first time around. It's like a crack addict constantly trying to get that initial high.
Comments
Yawn, more elitist nonsense.
I get it, the reason why mmo are 100x more popular now is because they are 100x worse and people are idiots etc.
You should have renamed this old mmos vs wow...
Because I had the feeling you were always putting wow as a reference to new mmos
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
Is the genre more popular or is it WoW exclusively? Look at average subs before and after WoW... Virutally the same.Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Sounds like you're just mad that your team didn't win.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I certainly agree overall with the OP, we have lost as much as we have gained.
Housing in old MMO’s was housing you wanted to use, these days its just a trophy storeroom. But I don’t agree with the Alliance /Horde language barrier being an issue, two fighting factions should not be able to talk to one another.
Fluff in the old days did give a more virtual world feeling, after all it was designed to be part of a virtual world rather than just a side game which is how they design them these days.
Achievement junkie is the name of the game these days and it’s easy to see where that mentality came from, consoles. But now we have social junkies on the horizon and I think they will have an even larger more detrimental effect on MMO’s and gaming.
I don’t agree with the OP on end game, modern MMO’s have the edge there though they can make huge mistakes like gated content.
Also I think PvP is better now purely because more MMO’s have some form of it. Many old MMO’s were PvE only, few today are. DAOC reigns supreme in MMO history for pvp, but that does not mean old MMO’s were better as a whole by any means.
I think it is hard to sum up old and new MMO’s with a score. There are elements of old MMO’s we really need bringing back, like the importance of grouping. But likewise there are elements we don’t want like huge death penalties.
When Meridon says we chose them parks (to paraphrase) over virtual worlds I don’t totally agree. Where were the new sand box MMO’s coming out that we could have joined? It was stay in your old game or nothing.
All this talk about nostalgia is nonsense, do people say that original Donkey Kong cannot be surpassed? No because the core game play has only just been added to and polished. Where as in MMO’s the game play had been changed radically to a new style which in many ways is poorer.
This tickled me from the replies:
“I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to attack or insult you.”
Under which the guys signature says: “My Color is Black, I value power, ambition and darkness. I love power at any cost”…and so on.
I think both old and new mmorpgs are good. I do prefer the old over the new, even if the old ones aren't as streamlined.
The old mmorpg to me:
You lived in the world, and story took precedence over combat. Some of the story was prewritten. But due to to lower budgets, most of the story was made up by experiences in the game. Things generally took longer to accomplish. This doesn't mean it was neccesarrily harder, but at the end of the line, when you accomplished something it felt more rewarding. Longer travel times, crafting procedures, exploration took longer(UI tools werent' as intuitive for directions), death penalties were more harsh(So player survival felt more vital). Imo an mmorpg is supposed to be a huge timesink, or neverending.
But this is just my opinion and WoW sub base pretty much puts my opinion in the minority.
The Newer mmorpg to me:
You play in the world, and combat seems more prevalent than story. A large portion of the story is fabricated by the devs. And there is less sandbox elements to most mmorpg. Things are not neccessarily easier, they just rarely take long to do. Due to it being less time consuming, it doesn't feel as rewarding due to low time consumption. Travel is too easy, crafting is usually simple, exploration is rather easy due to good better UI, death penalties arent' as harsh(good in a way, but also makes death seem like a small obstacle.
Even though I like the older way of mmorpg more. Sometimes the grind does aggravate me. But thats only on small occasions. When it does I simply log off and play offline rpgs. :)And continue in my mmo later on. I guess my idea of a perfect mmorpg. Would be one that focuses on story, has some timesinks, but also has superb UI and environment interaction, and well done combat.
What if I told you there are just as many players (if not more so) that played those games back them and do cherish the time they put in, but now would never go back to that style of game play. Everyone insults WoW's playerbase as kiddie and immature but there is a decent subset of players who play WoW who fit this description. There are lot of reasons for this, probably the biggest one is the same guy/girl who started EQ in 2000 is now 10 years older.
Your point about the playerbase being different now (which I believe is more the mentality is different) only highlights the fact that these series of articles was written by someone who doesn't share the mentality of the majority of people who play MMO's these days. I hesitate to even call it an article. It's more an op-ed piece that could be written by anyone who favors older games versus newer ones. The score will always be the same.
YEP!
And I also laugh at yours, since Chesney Hawkes "I am the One and only" was released in 1991
For me, the old MMO's offered something the new MMO's don't offer at all. It can be summed up in one word, choice. The new MMO's all lead you by the hand with a progression of quests which you really need to do to acquire the levels needed to get to end game. I guess the new players don't like freedom of choice, they want someone else to make all the decisions for them.
The new MMO's are all about how fast you can get to the end game, not experiencing the game itself. So imo anyone trying to support the new MMO's you just don't know what you are talking about.
To me it's like this.
New games tend to offer better graphics, controls and are generally better at tutorials or getting new players better acquainted with the game before sending them off into the world.
Older games tended to be more immersive and more fun. They also seemed to be more interactive. I still feel dissapointed that when a game does give me furniture of some kind to put in what ever residence I'm allowed I can't sit in it even though I could in a game back in 1997. Older games also seemed to give players more freedom not only in how they spent there game time but the games allowed them to be more expressive. Older MMO's allowed players to carve out a place for themselves in the game world instead of making you feel like you are just a visitor like newer ones do. UO is a good example of that freedom. You could own a home, where various amounts of social clothing over your armor to have what ever kind of look you wanted, dye those social clothes and your armor almost any color. You could focus on pratical skills or you could use some of the more obscure and semi useless skills. I had a detective in UO.... the template wasn't exactly practical but it was fun lol. I use to sit down in UO in my house or at a tavern in game with a friend and play chess some nights.
While we have taken some major steps forward in Graphics, coding and programing it just feels we have taken some huge steps back in creativity. The old games focused on giving players a world they would want to live in and explore. Newer games tend to focus on developing a means of retention out side of players enjoying there time in game.
Maybe thats it, older games tended to rely on the fun to keep you playing while newer games seem to be working on a means of getting you addicted in some way, shape or form without having to resort to or rely on fun lol.
In any case Older MMO's have the heart and soul thats lacking in newer ones and newer ones have the better graphics, coding/programing and tech. But this is of course just imho.
not necessarily one, but not 8.
Whoa, from this comment alone I can tell that I would probably loath you in the fleshh (extra h included just for you).
When I think of MMOs I have liked most, I agree with you and that the old ones win.
SWG pre-messing it up, DaoC, AO are all games still special to me and so much better than what is coming out nowadays, apart from Fallen Earth which I do like but to me FE has some old school aspects to it.
Meh. My only thought is 'if the older generations of MMOs are so great, then why do we have the new generations?"
And it isn't always about the money. Koei has been making several series of games targetted at a small number of people (Historical simulators). Every game I can generally think of that seeks to create this 'old game' feel has generally failed. (I am sure there is an exception). Even the niche players who want that game generally abandon them. *shrugs*
Playing: Heroes of Three Kingdoms
Played: WoW, DDO, Second Life, Diablo II,
Tried free trial: LoTR, Fallen Earth, EvE, Champions Online,
Old games win in Nostalgia Contest! Shocking victory! ....or not.
I looked at those old games back in the day, and their glaring flaws kept me from playing MMOs for years.
It's great that there are lots of different games, with different foci, so that folks who like different styles can go play what they want. But the 'Ours was the perfect way!' grousing gets old. All games have good points and problem issues. Find something that has some of the elements that you like and SUPPORT IT. Otherwise no developers will think those aspects worthwhile.
IF you wait around for the 'perfect game' MMO, you might as well take up lawn darts, 'cause it's not going to happen.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Thank god this crappy article is over.
F.A.T
Of course the genre is more popular. You're talking about average subs spread across 3-4 titles in eq1 days vs. 100's of titles in addition to the 11m "exception" these days.
It simply amazes me how to this day not one company has created a game like some of the old ones. I am an old DaoC player and to this day I miss it. There is a reason why I do not go back though. The game needs to be updated with GUI and controls simple as that. If just one company took what daoc was, converted the EXACT SAME system of pvp INCLUDING all the CC that so many hate and gave it WoW's controls and then used the exact same dungeon system except make bosses more along the lines of variety of fights as WoW offers instead of everything being tank and spank you'd have a true game I would play forever.
In DaoC Darkness falls was possibly the greatest dungeon ever designed simply because it brought everything good about Pve and introduced pvp into it. Even df's seals were fun getting. The only thing I would change about that dungeon is once again giving the true bosses in there actual boss mechanics such as what WoW's dungeons are like, making some fights not just spam healing tanks to win.
So much memories of that game it's hard to believe post wow era some1 could not duplicate what daoc had just in an updated easier to play game. Daoc simply is not a game you can pick up and play if you've never played it. Even I when going back forget how to do a lot of things that newer games make much easier. I often wish I could create the game I KNOW would work but after looking at the difficulties of creating an mmo I know it is only a dream. Only hope I have of reliving the memories and fun I had in DaoC is matt firor's game. Lets hope he hasn't lost site like every company has done thus far.
Even if they came out with DoAC2 we would still be stuck having to play with WoWtard kids and Koreans. Can't wait for StarWars to come out but will have the same problem. Aion is a nightmare, can't find one single mature adult guild on two differant servers. Sigh.
Winner winner, chicken dinner. This post is comical on so many levels that its a shame the poster is obviously too obtuse to realize it.
1. This whole myth of old school gamers being enlightened,well mannered,educated,pious,angels and todays gamers being the downfall of civilization needs to stop. Many of the same people you want to bestow sainthood upon are still playing, they havent left the genre. Ive played dozens of these games and met asshats in every one of them and helpful people in every one as well. With the exception of Wow I havent noticed any difference in the community from eq1 to Fallen earth. Even WoW, todays poster child among the old school fanatics for all thats wrong in the world of mmo's has plenty of quality people,players,and guilds. Im guessing those people sporting the rose colored spectacles trying to rewrite history have forgotten the kill stealing,deliberate training of people/camps/raids, ninja looting,content blocking,etc. They have forgotten the inane chatter that used to flow from the ooc channels. The people having long drawn out conversations that should have been taken to tells that acted like you stabbed their favorite dog for having the nerve to suggest they do just that.
2. You say you dont want to generalize then do not only that but proceed to insult and demean all the people you just lumped together. Well mannered indeed.
3. The op wrote a horrible opinion "piece" under the guise of a comparing old mmo's vs new mmo's. No one trashed him for liking old games vs new games. He was trashed because he tried to pass off an opinion piece in which his mind was already made up as a legit old vs. new comparison.
4. mmo simply means a game world where hundreds or thousands can play/inhabit together. rpg simply means assuming the role of another persona. Neither means forced grouping,forced interaction,forced interdependence and you people need to stop trying to hijack these words and redefine them for your own purposes.
5. Peace to you as well and thanks for proving everything you said about well mannered, quality gamers from the "olden days" being a myth.
You are all arguing over silly points friends.
1: you couldnt get more than 500k subs 10 years ago due to there not being that many people playing mmos. MMO's were dorky then and for anoraks. was it because the games werent good enough? ...no it was simply because the mainstream didnt even know they existed.
2: you prefer old games? you prefer new games? dont be silly....it's the actual style of the game you prefer! i slant towards old games due to the fact that i enjoy grind, danger and depth. i just cant find that in newer games, if i did i would sign up tomorrow
guys/girls put our opinions across by all means and explain why we prefer each generation/style, but dont waste time arguing who is right/wrong as there is no right/wrong!
lets make this world a better place! for you and for me and the en......sorry lost my train of thought for a min there!
I couldn't agree with anyone more then this. Also like i've said after previous additions of this article it seems that this isn't really about old vs new as much as it is about UO/EQ vs WoW. I hate WoW and almost all that it has brought to this genre but I have to say starting off with games like DAoC things have been getting better and better. If you want a newer game that tried to have all that old stuff that was prevelant in EQ and UO you know corpse runs, long grinding an almost endless amount of "fluff" look at Vanguard. Wait though wasn't that kind of a huge flop? I wonder why... (mind you there migh have been more reason to this but still)
I will admit I do have a soft spot for the older games I played and i wish that some things would be the same as they used to but most of that comes down to the people.
In closing I'll ask this question if old games and the stuff they had in them are so superior why isn't there one I mean just one game that has all those elements that is a current success? I'm not saying it has to have a million subs I mean even just a couple hundred thousand.
Is the genre more popular or is it WoW exclusively? Look at average subs before and after WoW... Virutally the same.Of course the genre is more popular. You're talking about average subs spread across 3-4 titles in eq1 days vs. 100's of titles in addition to the 11m "exception" these days.
Hundreds of mmos??? Dude there are like 20 mmos that make up majority of the mmo population. Certainly we aren't discussing f2p mmos where the populations are impossible to calculate.Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Because nostalgia only takes you so far. Someone above asked why don't they just re-do DAoC with better graphics and WoW controls. They tried to do that, it's called Warhammer and it failed miserably, for a number of reasons. This goes back to my point about how everyone says that they love the old games, but that doesn't mean most would play them today. I'm sure there is a good amount of people that value those games and wish there was more like them today, but the fact of the matter is they represent such a small minority of the MMO playerbase that no developer wants to take that kind of risk. Even games that have tried to be more 'hardcore' have failed recently (Vanguard, Darkfall). On top of all this, the fact of the matter is you can have basically a reskin of EQ circa 1999 and I bet it won't have as many players as you think, mainly because it will never be able to recreate what you experienced the first time around. It's like a crack addict constantly trying to get that initial high.