Alright maybe this will help. Please break it down for me. I'll list a few games, you pick one and tell me why it's a clone of wow. Clones: Lotro, War, Aoc, Aion, there ya go, the four big releases and I'll even toss TOR to this. Please for the love of god exlain it to me...
As surprisingly noted in countless threads in the past, the term 'wow clone' is used by most to refer to class-restricted level-based hack-n-slash MMOs. By now there's probably been 30-40 million peple that have played WOW (unless their retention rate is through the roof) so 'EQ clone' has long been abandoned in favor of a term that the majority of people would be familiar with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The WoWclone term is insulting in the way it is used on these forums. Basically as Games targeted at a bunch of idiots.
As for what EQ started... they started the basic concept of TPs. Leveling from1 to cap, using a class and once leveling is done progressively clearing raid content for armor/items.
The reason people say the genre is the same thing over and over is because of EQ. It set the way that the majority of the genre does things.
EQ is to the mmogenre what Doom or Quake is to FPS.
This is probably one of those discussions thats about as useful as defining hardcore. You and I have significantly different opinions of what a themepark is if you think EQ1 was the same style game as WoW.
I said basics.
WoW was heavily inspired by EQ.
Basically a bunch of EQ raiders tried to make a game like EQ but minus all the annoying and worthless shit.
The problem was those players were the "Raid or Die" folk... So the annoying and meaningless shit was all the RP, social stuff, depth of crafting. They wanted a streamlined experience of quick leveling because the big bad raids were the game to them.
With all that said... they are still similar when you look solely at the basic concept... Pick class, Level, hit cap, Raid with guild for gear.
EQ is to the mmogenre what Doom or Quake is to FPS.
I don't think anyone would deny that. To that point, 'Doom clone' and 'Quake clone' were very common terms during the early days of FPS games as illustrated here:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That's complete bullshit... What you just described is the "themepark" sub-genre. Is lotro a themepark? Which actually means a more linear experience with a progressive pve endgame... Totally!!!
All that other crap about being simple and easy (basically being games for retards) is all crap.
I've been kicking ass and taking names I'n sandbox mmos since 97.
Let me let you in on a little secret... They are also extremely easy.
DAoC a game that suddenly doesn't belong On the list of Eq clones because of your nostalgia glasses also fits I'n that category lol.
Lead me by the hand to endgame so I could farm gear... Sounds about right when it comes to all mmos except maybe 2 or 3 current sandbox games.
If you think that, you're delusional.
Dark Age of Camelot was a game centered around RvR. That alone splits it from the list I detailed. Not to mention the fact that, it had no instanced, the zones weren't linear, it didn't have quest based leveling, it didn't have tiered raiding, and oh here's this, it released BEFORE WoW, so it cannot be a WoW clone. Is it a sandbox? No. Is it a theme park? No. It's somewhere in between, where more games should be.
I didn't say sandbox games were "hard", nor did I mention them at all in my list. What I described are all features that were popularized by WoW, and what almost every MMO from the past 5 years has followed in its design. The only exceptions I can think of are Fallen Earth, Darkfall, and Vanguard almost escapes the list, but falls short.
Before WoW clones existed, you could try to call things EQ clones for the same reasons, except... hm, it seems almost all games before WoW's launch were quite different and distinct from one another. They all had their own mechanics and learning curves. That's more than can be said for modern MMOs, you know how to play them the second you log in, because they're all the same.
Here's the list for those who missed it.
a) extremely simply, with tons of in game tools to make it so the player doesn't have to think (glowing quest objectives, auto tracking mini map showing you where to walk, !!! over every NPC head with a quest, no death penalty)
b) focuses on soloing to the end game cap
c) overuses instances/has no real dungeons
d) focuses on PvE and loot gathering as the only objective to the game
e) end game consists of raiding, and a tacked on instanced PvP afterthought
f) raiding is instanced, and tiered, so you need to grind each raid about 20 times before you go to the next one
g) linear zones funneling the player from hub to hub
h) quest based leveling, questing is the ONLY viable way to level, discourages grouping up and hunting
Alright maybe this will help. Please break it down for me. I'll list a few games, you pick one and tell me why it's a clone of wow. Clones: Lotro, War, Aoc, Aion, there ya go, the four big releases and I'll even toss TOR to this. Please for the love of god exlain it to me...
As surprisingly noted in countless threads in the past, the term 'wow clone' is used by most to refer to class-restricted level-based hack-n-slash MMOs. By now there's probably been 30-40 million peple that have played WOW (unless their retention rate is through the roof) so 'EQ clone' has long been abandoned in favor of a term that the majority of people would be familiar with.
OK so you all realize that there really isnt a game in the genre that's exactly like WoW.
Good.
Heh you know why i posted this? I was exploring a bit in Lotro today and some douchebag came onto OOC chat and started saying the game was an exact clone of WoW lol.
After blasting this guy i figured i'd come here and get a few of my fellow mmorpg.com peoples opinions on the matter. And that opinion is? No game is an exact copy.
I mean seriously if i wanted a game like WoW, wouldnt i just play WoW?
Pretty close to what Garvon posted although I prefer the term quest grinder. The games I've played that felt similar to WoW all encouraged you to solo quest grind to reach the end game. Once you reach the end game, the sole focus of character progression turns to easy to attain 'epic' gear that provides no real sense of accomplishment.
Why is it a clone of WoW if EQ is the one that started that?
You basically described a themepark mmo made famous with EQ.
Why are you ignoring all the other mechanics in these games and just simply lumping them up into the insulting term because they have leveling and raid progression?
Why is EQ not a WoW clone? I said in my post already. The style of level up, and raid, can be attributed to EQ. But you cannot attribute instances, ease of play, quest grinding, hand holding, lack of depth, or linear zones to EQ. Those are all elements of WoW, and thus, WoW clones.
If you can't see the HUGE difference between WoW and EQ, you haven't played MMOs for very long.
EQ - virtual world, focuses on socializing to survive the harsh environment
WoW - Friendly/easy arcade world, that focuses on soloing through instances
That's complete bullshit... What you just described is the "themepark" sub-genre. Is lotro a themepark? Which actually means a more linear experience with a progressive pve endgame... Totally!!!
All that other crap about being simple and easy (basically being games for retards) is all crap.
I've been kicking ass and taking names I'n sandbox mmos since 97.
Let me let you in on a little secret... They are also extremely easy.
DAoC a game that suddenly doesn't belong On the list of Eq clones because of your nostalgia glasses also fits I'n that category lol.
Lead me by the hand to endgame so I could farm gear... Sounds about right when it comes to all mmos except maybe 2 or 3 current sandbox games.
If you think that, you're delusional.
Dark Age of Camelot was a game centered around RvR. That alone splits it from the list I detailed. Not to mention the fact that, it had no instanced, the zones weren't linear, it didn't have quest based leveling, it didn't have tiered raiding, and oh here's this, it released BEFORE WoW, so it cannot be a WoW clone. Is it a sandbox? No. Is it a theme park? No. It's somewhere in between, where more games should be.
I didn't say sandbox games were "hard", nor did I mention them at all in my list. What I described are all features that were popularized by WoW, and what almost every MMO from the past 5 years has followed in its design. The only exceptions I can think of are Fallen Earth, Darkfall, and Vanguard almost escapes the list, but falls short.
Before WoW clones existed, you could try to call things EQ clones for the same reasons, except... hm, it seems almost all games before WoW's launch were quite different and distinct from one another. They all had their own mechanics and learning curves. That's more than can be said for modern MMOs, you know how to play them the second you log in, because they're all the same.
Here's the list for those who missed it.
a) extremely simply, with tons of in game tools to make it so the player doesn't have to think (glowing quest objectives, auto tracking mini map showing you where to walk, !!! over every NPC head with a quest, no death penalty)
b) focuses on soloing to the end game cap
c) overuses instances/has no real dungeons
d) focuses on PvE and loot gathering as the only objective to the game
e) end game consists of raiding, and a tacked on instanced PvP afterthought
f) raiding is instanced, and tiered, so you need to grind each raid about 20 times before you go to the next one
g) linear zones funneling the player from hub to hub
h) quest based leveling, questing is the ONLY viable way to level, discourages grouping up and hunting
And yes, a better label would be : Quest Grinder
SO in DAoC you didn't do quests? pick a class? level to a level cap? have pve content to run for gear? of course you did!!!!
Sure it had a great pvp system but other games have pretty awesome mechanics as well so how am i delusional for adding DAoC in the Themepark category when you yourself are doing the same shit with other games?
Alright maybe this will help. Please break it down for me. I'll list a few games, you pick one and tell me why it's a clone of wow. Clones: Lotro, War, Aoc, Aion, there ya go, the four big releases and I'll even toss TOR to this. Please for the love of god exlain it to me...
As surprisingly noted in countless threads in the past, the term 'wow clone' is used by most to refer to class-restricted level-based hack-n-slash MMOs. By now there's probably been 30-40 million peple that have played WOW (unless their retention rate is through the roof) so 'EQ clone' has long been abandoned in favor of a term that the majority of people would be familiar with.
OK so you all realize that there really isnt a game in the genre that's exactly like WoW.
Good.
Heh you know why i posted this? I was exploring a bit in Lotro today and some douchebag came onto OOC chat and started saying the game was an exact clone of WoW lol.
After blasting this guy i figured i'd come here and get a few of my fellow mmorpg.com peoples opinions on the matter. And that opinion is? No game is an exact copy.
I mean seriously if i wanted a game like WoW, wouldnt i just play WoW?
LotRO is one of those games that was once original, that was turned into a WoW clone.
The linear zones with invisible walls, the instanced quests, the gear grind/epic items, quest based leveling, the raiding system, those were all tacked on during beta, during a shift in Turbine policies. It was originally quite a unique game, in alpha when I played, but got NGE'd when WoW became popular. So no, its not a 100% clone, some bits of uniqueness shine through from the alpha days (morale system, which has since been WoWified, the lore book), but now its shamelessly copying WoW.
With all that said... they are still similar when you look solely at the basic concept... Pick class, Level, hit cap, Raid with guild for gear.
Yes you are quite right. If you take out everything that makes them different, they are quite similar.
People do that same thing all the time with the newer games. They look at lotro, WAR or even AoC and completely ignore anything that would make them different from other games. That's the problem.
That's complete bullshit... What you just described is the "themepark" sub-genre. Is lotro a themepark? Which actually means a more linear experience with a progressive pve endgame... Totally!!!
All that other crap about being simple and easy (basically being games for retards) is all crap.
I've been kicking ass and taking names I'n sandbox mmos since 97.
Let me let you in on a little secret... They are also extremely easy.
DAoC a game that suddenly doesn't belong On the list of Eq clones because of your nostalgia glasses also fits I'n that category lol.
Lead me by the hand to endgame so I could farm gear... Sounds about right when it comes to all mmos except maybe 2 or 3 current sandbox games.
If you think that, you're delusional.
Dark Age of Camelot was a game centered around RvR. That alone splits it from the list I detailed. Not to mention the fact that, it had no instanced, the zones weren't linear, it didn't have quest based leveling, it didn't have tiered raiding, and oh here's this, it released BEFORE WoW, so it cannot be a WoW clone. Is it a sandbox? No. Is it a theme park? No. It's somewhere in between, where more games should be.
I didn't say sandbox games were "hard", nor did I mention them at all in my list. What I described are all features that were popularized by WoW, and what almost every MMO from the past 5 years has followed in its design. The only exceptions I can think of are Fallen Earth, Darkfall, and Vanguard almost escapes the list, but falls short.
Before WoW clones existed, you could try to call things EQ clones for the same reasons, except... hm, it seems almost all games before WoW's launch were quite different and distinct from one another. They all had their own mechanics and learning curves. That's more than can be said for modern MMOs, you know how to play them the second you log in, because they're all the same.
Here's the list for those who missed it.
a) extremely simply, with tons of in game tools to make it so the player doesn't have to think (glowing quest objectives, auto tracking mini map showing you where to walk, !!! over every NPC head with a quest, no death penalty)
b) focuses on soloing to the end game cap
c) overuses instances/has no real dungeons
d) focuses on PvE and loot gathering as the only objective to the game
e) end game consists of raiding, and a tacked on instanced PvP afterthought
f) raiding is instanced, and tiered, so you need to grind each raid about 20 times before you go to the next one
g) linear zones funneling the player from hub to hub
h) quest based leveling, questing is the ONLY viable way to level, discourages grouping up and hunting
And yes, a better label would be : Quest Grinder
SO in DAoC you didn't do quests? pick a class? level to a level cap? have pve content to run for gear? of course you did!!!!
Sure it had a great pvp system but other games have pretty awesome mechanics as well so how am i delusional for adding DAoC in the Themepark category when you yourself are doing the same shit with other games?
You did quests, but you didn't do them to level up, and they were not instanced. All RPGs have quests, you can't keep broadening the term or you're going to catch every RPG ever made in the web. My list is very specific and to the point. These are features popularized by WoW, they make up a WoW clone. Did I say picking a class was an element of a WoW clone? No. SWG had classes, a very unique class system, but if you were to call that an EQ clone you would get flogged.
PvE in DAoC was similar to EQ, but since PvE was only 1/4 the game, calling it a clone is not very accurate. And no, you could get gear from PvP and crafting, not just PvE. The best gear came from multiple sources. That's why raids were optional, unlike WoW.
Alright maybe this will help. Please break it down for me. I'll list a few games, you pick one and tell me why it's a clone of wow. Clones: Lotro, War, Aoc, Aion, there ya go, the four big releases and I'll even toss TOR to this. Please for the love of god exlain it to me...
As surprisingly noted in countless threads in the past, the term 'wow clone' is used by most to refer to class-restricted level-based hack-n-slash MMOs. By now there's probably been 30-40 million peple that have played WOW (unless their retention rate is through the roof) so 'EQ clone' has long been abandoned in favor of a term that the majority of people would be familiar with.
OK so you all realize that there really isnt a game in the genre that's exactly like WoW.
Good.
Heh you know why i posted this? I was exploring a bit in Lotro today and some douchebag came onto OOC chat and started saying the game was an exact clone of WoW lol.
After blasting this guy i figured i'd come here and get a few of my fellow mmorpg.com peoples opinions on the matter. And that opinion is? No game is an exact copy.
I mean seriously if i wanted a game like WoW, wouldnt i just play WoW?
LotRO is one of those games that was once original, that was turned into a WoW clone.
The linear zones with invisible walls, the instanced quests, the gear grind/epic items, quest based leveling, the raiding system, those were all tacked on during beta, during a shift in Turbine policies. It was originally quite a unique game, in alpha when I played, but got NGE'd when WoW became popular. So no, its not a 100% clone, some bits of uniqueness shine through from the alpha days (morale system, which has since been WoWified, the lore book), but now its shamelessly copying WoW.
IM playing through Lotro right now and i can honestly say its a unique experience for me.
How the quests are tied to everything and the story is actually important. I didnt feel that in WoW.
You say the game has invisible walls but i've been exploring and enjoying what the game has too offer for three weeks now.
It feels just as open as any other game... The crafting, housing and music system are freaking awesome.
The classes with the use of the traits system is anything but "Wowified".
I honestly don't even think were talking about the same game lol.
Alright maybe this will help. Please break it down for me. I'll list a few games, you pick one and tell me why it's a clone of wow. Clones: Lotro, War, Aoc, Aion, there ya go, the four big releases and I'll even toss TOR to this. Please for the love of god exlain it to me...
As surprisingly noted in countless threads in the past, the term 'wow clone' is used by most to refer to class-restricted level-based hack-n-slash MMOs. By now there's probably been 30-40 million peple that have played WOW (unless their retention rate is through the roof) so 'EQ clone' has long been abandoned in favor of a term that the majority of people would be familiar with.
OK so you all realize that there really isnt a game in the genre that's exactly like WoW.
Good.
Other than Alganon and maybe one or two others, I haven't seem many people say a certain MMO is an exact copy of WOW. However if someone posted that a game was a WOW clone, most - if not all - the people here would expect a class-restricted level-based game primarily focused around fighting when they tried it and wouldn't feel they were led astray as to the type of game it was.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Alright maybe this will help. Please break it down for me. I'll list a few games, you pick one and tell me why it's a clone of wow. Clones: Lotro, War, Aoc, Aion, there ya go, the four big releases and I'll even toss TOR to this. Please for the love of god exlain it to me...
As surprisingly noted in countless threads in the past, the term 'wow clone' is used by most to refer to class-restricted level-based hack-n-slash MMOs. By now there's probably been 30-40 million peple that have played WOW (unless their retention rate is through the roof) so 'EQ clone' has long been abandoned in favor of a term that the majority of people would be familiar with.
OK so you all realize that there really isnt a game in the genre that's exactly like WoW.
Good.
Heh you know why i posted this? I was exploring a bit in Lotro today and some douchebag came onto OOC chat and started saying the game was an exact clone of WoW lol.
After blasting this guy i figured i'd come here and get a few of my fellow mmorpg.com peoples opinions on the matter. And that opinion is? No game is an exact copy.
I mean seriously if i wanted a game like WoW, wouldnt i just play WoW?
LotRO is one of those games that was once original, that was turned into a WoW clone.
The linear zones with invisible walls, the instanced quests, the gear grind/epic items, quest based leveling, the raiding system, those were all tacked on during beta, during a shift in Turbine policies. It was originally quite a unique game, in alpha when I played, but got NGE'd when WoW became popular. So no, its not a 100% clone, some bits of uniqueness shine through from the alpha days (morale system, which has since been WoWified, the lore book), but now its shamelessly copying WoW.
IM playing through Lotro right now and i can honestly say its a unique experience for me.
How the quests are tied to everything and the story is actually important. I didnt feel that in WoW.
You say the game has invisible walls but i've been exploring and enjoying what the game has too offer for three weeks now.
It feels just as open as any other game... The crafting, housing and music system are freaking awesome.
The classes with the use of the traits system is anything but "Wowified".
I honestly don't even think were talking about the same game lol.
If you compared current LotRO with original LotRO, its very obvious where they changed it to resemble WoW. I consider it a slightly classier version of WoW due to the better crafting and storyline, but its WoW mechanics all the same. The quest grind may be even worse in LotRO. Glowing ring over head, run to marked spot on map, kill 10/10 boars from the 100th time, run back, do it again.
That's complete bullshit... What you just described is the "themepark" sub-genre. Is lotro a themepark? Which actually means a more linear experience with a progressive pve endgame... Totally!!!
All that other crap about being simple and easy (basically being games for retards) is all crap.
I've been kicking ass and taking names I'n sandbox mmos since 97.
Let me let you in on a little secret... They are also extremely easy.
DAoC a game that suddenly doesn't belong On the list of Eq clones because of your nostalgia glasses also fits I'n that category lol.
Lead me by the hand to endgame so I could farm gear... Sounds about right when it comes to all mmos except maybe 2 or 3 current sandbox games.
If you think that, you're delusional.
Dark Age of Camelot was a game centered around RvR. That alone splits it from the list I detailed. Not to mention the fact that, it had no instanced, the zones weren't linear, it didn't have quest based leveling, it didn't have tiered raiding, and oh here's this, it released BEFORE WoW, so it cannot be a WoW clone. Is it a sandbox? No. Is it a theme park? No. It's somewhere in between, where more games should be.
I didn't say sandbox games were "hard", nor did I mention them at all in my list. What I described are all features that were popularized by WoW, and what almost every MMO from the past 5 years has followed in its design. The only exceptions I can think of are Fallen Earth, Darkfall, and Vanguard almost escapes the list, but falls short.
Before WoW clones existed, you could try to call things EQ clones for the same reasons, except... hm, it seems almost all games before WoW's launch were quite different and distinct from one another. They all had their own mechanics and learning curves. That's more than can be said for modern MMOs, you know how to play them the second you log in, because they're all the same.
Here's the list for those who missed it.
a) extremely simply, with tons of in game tools to make it so the player doesn't have to think (glowing quest objectives, auto tracking mini map showing you where to walk, !!! over every NPC head with a quest, no death penalty)
b) focuses on soloing to the end game cap
c) overuses instances/has no real dungeons
d) focuses on PvE and loot gathering as the only objective to the game
e) end game consists of raiding, and a tacked on instanced PvP afterthought
f) raiding is instanced, and tiered, so you need to grind each raid about 20 times before you go to the next one
g) linear zones funneling the player from hub to hub
h) quest based leveling, questing is the ONLY viable way to level, discourages grouping up and hunting
And yes, a better label would be : Quest Grinder
SO in DAoC you didn't do quests? pick a class? level to a level cap? have pve content to run for gear? of course you did!!!!
Sure it had a great pvp system but other games have pretty awesome mechanics as well so how am i delusional for adding DAoC in the Themepark category when you yourself are doing the same shit with other games?
You did quests, but you didn't do them to level up, and they were not instanced. All RPGs have quests, you can't keep broadening the term or you're going to catch every RPG ever made in the web. My list is very specific and to the point. These are features popularized by WoW, they make up a WoW clone. Did I say picking a class was an element of a WoW clone? No. SWG had classes, a very unique class system, but if you were to call that an EQ clone you would get flogged.
PvE in DAoC was similar to EQ, but since PvE was only 1/4 the game, calling it a clone is not very accurate. And no, you could get gear from PvP and crafting, not just PvE. The best gear came from multiple sources. That's why raids were optional, unlike WoW.
When was the last time you played DAoC? Will you people do me a favor ? when you try to make a point bringing up a game thats already radically changed doesnt help you.
How is DAoC now? Oh thats right the same as everything else... Fuck DaoC now is no different than one of the games you call a "wowclone" WAR. a game thats main focus is ignored by this community just so you can use the term Wowclone to insult the people still playing it because you dont like it lol.
Also i remember EQ screwing itself up pretty good even before WoW came into the picture. It lead the way with the dumbing down buddy.
That's complete bullshit... What you just described is the "themepark" sub-genre. Is lotro a themepark? Which actually means a more linear experience with a progressive pve endgame... Totally!!!
All that other crap about being simple and easy (basically being games for retards) is all crap.
I've been kicking ass and taking names I'n sandbox mmos since 97.
Let me let you in on a little secret... They are also extremely easy.
DAoC a game that suddenly doesn't belong On the list of Eq clones because of your nostalgia glasses also fits I'n that category lol.
Lead me by the hand to endgame so I could farm gear... Sounds about right when it comes to all mmos except maybe 2 or 3 current sandbox games.
If you think that, you're delusional.
Dark Age of Camelot was a game centered around RvR. That alone splits it from the list I detailed. Not to mention the fact that, it had no instanced, the zones weren't linear, it didn't have quest based leveling, it didn't have tiered raiding, and oh here's this, it released BEFORE WoW, so it cannot be a WoW clone. Is it a sandbox? No. Is it a theme park? No. It's somewhere in between, where more games should be.
I didn't say sandbox games were "hard", nor did I mention them at all in my list. What I described are all features that were popularized by WoW, and what almost every MMO from the past 5 years has followed in its design. The only exceptions I can think of are Fallen Earth, Darkfall, and Vanguard almost escapes the list, but falls short.
Before WoW clones existed, you could try to call things EQ clones for the same reasons, except... hm, it seems almost all games before WoW's launch were quite different and distinct from one another. They all had their own mechanics and learning curves. That's more than can be said for modern MMOs, you know how to play them the second you log in, because they're all the same.
Here's the list for those who missed it.
a) extremely simply, with tons of in game tools to make it so the player doesn't have to think (glowing quest objectives, auto tracking mini map showing you where to walk, !!! over every NPC head with a quest, no death penalty)
b) focuses on soloing to the end game cap
c) overuses instances/has no real dungeons
d) focuses on PvE and loot gathering as the only objective to the game
e) end game consists of raiding, and a tacked on instanced PvP afterthought
f) raiding is instanced, and tiered, so you need to grind each raid about 20 times before you go to the next one
g) linear zones funneling the player from hub to hub
h) quest based leveling, questing is the ONLY viable way to level, discourages grouping up and hunting
And yes, a better label would be : Quest Grinder
SO in DAoC you didn't do quests? pick a class? level to a level cap? have pve content to run for gear? of course you did!!!!
Sure it had a great pvp system but other games have pretty awesome mechanics as well so how am i delusional for adding DAoC in the Themepark category when you yourself are doing the same shit with other games?
You did quests, but you didn't do them to level up, and they were not instanced. All RPGs have quests, you can't keep broadening the term or you're going to catch every RPG ever made in the web. My list is very specific and to the point. These are features popularized by WoW, they make up a WoW clone. Did I say picking a class was an element of a WoW clone? No. SWG had classes, a very unique class system, but if you were to call that an EQ clone you would get flogged.
PvE in DAoC was similar to EQ, but since PvE was only 1/4 the game, calling it a clone is not very accurate. And no, you could get gear from PvP and crafting, not just PvE. The best gear came from multiple sources. That's why raids were optional, unlike WoW.
When was the last time you played DAoC? Will you people do me a favor ? when you try to make a point bringing up a game thats already radically changed doesnt help you.
How is DAoC now? Oh thats right the same as everything else... Fuck DaoC now is no different than one of the games you call a "wowclone" WAR. a game thats main focus is ignored by this community just so you can use the term Wowclone to insult the people still playing it because you dont like it lol.
Also i remember EQ screwing itself up pretty good even before WoW came into the picture. It lead the way with the dumbing down buddy.
Seems I touched a nerve. Even now, with DAoC a shadow of a shadow of a shadow of its former self, with so many stupid changes, is STILL quite different from WoW. The only WoW like thing it has now is quest based leveling, which I abhor, as do many others.
That's complete bullshit... What you just described is the "themepark" sub-genre. Is lotro a themepark? Which actually means a more linear experience with a progressive pve endgame... Totally!!!
All that other crap about being simple and easy (basically being games for retards) is all crap.
I've been kicking ass and taking names I'n sandbox mmos since 97.
Let me let you in on a little secret... They are also extremely easy.
DAoC a game that suddenly doesn't belong On the list of Eq clones because of your nostalgia glasses also fits I'n that category lol.
Lead me by the hand to endgame so I could farm gear... Sounds about right when it comes to all mmos except maybe 2 or 3 current sandbox games.
If you think that, you're delusional.
Dark Age of Camelot was a game centered around RvR. That alone splits it from the list I detailed. Not to mention the fact that, it had no instanced, the zones weren't linear, it didn't have quest based leveling, it didn't have tiered raiding, and oh here's this, it released BEFORE WoW, so it cannot be a WoW clone. Is it a sandbox? No. Is it a theme park? No. It's somewhere in between, where more games should be.
I didn't say sandbox games were "hard", nor did I mention them at all in my list. What I described are all features that were popularized by WoW, and what almost every MMO from the past 5 years has followed in its design. The only exceptions I can think of are Fallen Earth, Darkfall, and Vanguard almost escapes the list, but falls short.
Before WoW clones existed, you could try to call things EQ clones for the same reasons, except... hm, it seems almost all games before WoW's launch were quite different and distinct from one another. They all had their own mechanics and learning curves. That's more than can be said for modern MMOs, you know how to play them the second you log in, because they're all the same.
Here's the list for those who missed it.
a) extremely simply, with tons of in game tools to make it so the player doesn't have to think (glowing quest objectives, auto tracking mini map showing you where to walk, !!! over every NPC head with a quest, no death penalty)
b) focuses on soloing to the end game cap
c) overuses instances/has no real dungeons
d) focuses on PvE and loot gathering as the only objective to the game
e) end game consists of raiding, and a tacked on instanced PvP afterthought
f) raiding is instanced, and tiered, so you need to grind each raid about 20 times before you go to the next one
g) linear zones funneling the player from hub to hub
h) quest based leveling, questing is the ONLY viable way to level, discourages grouping up and hunting
And yes, a better label would be : Quest Grinder
SO in DAoC you didn't do quests? pick a class? level to a level cap? have pve content to run for gear? of course you did!!!!
Sure it had a great pvp system but other games have pretty awesome mechanics as well so how am i delusional for adding DAoC in the Themepark category when you yourself are doing the same shit with other games?
You did quests, but you didn't do them to level up, and they were not instanced. All RPGs have quests, you can't keep broadening the term or you're going to catch every RPG ever made in the web. My list is very specific and to the point. These are features popularized by WoW, they make up a WoW clone. Did I say picking a class was an element of a WoW clone? No. SWG had classes, a very unique class system, but if you were to call that an EQ clone you would get flogged.
PvE in DAoC was similar to EQ, but since PvE was only 1/4 the game, calling it a clone is not very accurate. And no, you could get gear from PvP and crafting, not just PvE. The best gear came from multiple sources. That's why raids were optional, unlike WoW.
When was the last time you played DAoC? Will you people do me a favor ? when you try to make a point bringing up a game thats already radically changed doesnt help you.
How is DAoC now? Oh thats right the same as everything else... Fuck DaoC now is no different than one of the games you call a "wowclone" WAR. a game thats main focus is ignored by this community just so you can use the term Wowclone to insult the people still playing it because you dont like it lol.
Also i remember EQ screwing itself up pretty good even before WoW came into the picture. It lead the way with the dumbing down buddy.
Seems I touched a nerve. Even now, with DAoC a shadow of a shadow of a shadow of its former self, with so many stupid changes, is STILL quite different from WoW. The only WoW like thing it has now is quest based leveling, which I abhor, as do many others.
YOu didn't touch anything have you forgotten who i am? or what my post history is like?
Im a god damn Oldschool mmo/sandbox fanatic. Even if i happen to like Lotro...
I've used the term WoWclone before but i disagree that all these games are exact clones of WoW.
If were arguing if these games fall in the themepark sub-genre, we could stop now LOL because i know they do.
I just wanted to point out that the games are different
People confuse generic korean MMOs with wow clones for some reason, the formula is the same for every game. I very rarely use the word but to me it applies to a few games such as Alganon, allods and 4story but the wow inspiration can be seen in pretty much every game released after it...that doesn't make them wow clones but it does bring a very similar type of gameplay in a lot of games with a twist of their own.
Pretty close to what Garvon posted although I prefer the term quest grinder. The games I've played that felt similar to WoW all encouraged you to solo quest grind to reach the end game. Once you reach the end game, the sole focus of character progression turns to easy to attain 'epic' gear that provides no real sense of accomplishment.
Why is it a clone of WoW if EQ is the one that started that?
You basically described a themepark mmo made famous with EQ.
Why are you ignoring all the other mechanics in these games and just simply lumping them up into the insulting term because they have leveling and raid progression?
Why is EQ not a WoW clone? I said in my post already. The style of level up, and raid, can be attributed to EQ. But you cannot attribute instances, ease of play, quest grinding, hand holding, lack of depth, or linear zones to EQ. Those are all elements of WoW, and thus, WoW clones.
If you can't see the HUGE difference between WoW and EQ, you haven't played MMOs for very long.
EQ - virtual world, focuses on socializing to survive the harsh environment
WoW - Friendly/easy arcade world, that focuses on soloing through instances
I'm glad this post popped up because it had me questioning who here had actually played both EQ and WoW. The thing WoW did and why it so often gets compared to EQ is that it gave a lot of people(including myself) that great feeling that EQ had given when i first started playing mmos. But by lv 15 in WoW you can tell the the games aren't similar at all. The only thing EQ started was the raid grind and i guess gear grinding. Those are the ONLY similarities that the two games have.
To level up in EQ you got groups and camped out spots for decent xp. WoW was pretty solo centric for all classes and you only grouped for instances or elite quests out in the world. Their xp was gained through hundreds of solo quest you acquired while going from hub to hub. In EQ you always had a couple of choices of places to travel to to level but they were usually for specific camps
Instances didn't even come about in EQ until the expansion LDoN where there were randomly generated dungeons that you could choose which type of mission you wanted them to be. Before that all dungeons were open world where you encountered other groups. NOTHING like WoW where all dungeons were instanced.
Another huge difference is look at the way skills worked. Compare the warrior's variation of skill from EQ and WoW and you'd laugh your ass off just thinking about it. Until the 50s and a couple expansions warriors only taunted kicked and bashed in EQ. That plays nothing at all like the WoW warrior.
My point is that the games are so vastly different that to call WoW an EQ clone is dumber than all the other games that get classified as WoW clones by far considering that there were next to no similar things between the two games. So in conclusion we all need to seriousily think before we keep putting stupid labels on games especially when if you barely even crack the surface you see that like with these two, you have completely different types of beasts.
Comments
As surprisingly noted in countless threads in the past, the term 'wow clone' is used by most to refer to class-restricted level-based hack-n-slash MMOs. By now there's probably been 30-40 million peple that have played WOW (unless their retention rate is through the roof) so 'EQ clone' has long been abandoned in favor of a term that the majority of people would be familiar with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I said basics.
WoW was heavily inspired by EQ.
Basically a bunch of EQ raiders tried to make a game like EQ but minus all the annoying and worthless shit.
The problem was those players were the "Raid or Die" folk... So the annoying and meaningless shit was all the RP, social stuff, depth of crafting. They wanted a streamlined experience of quick leveling because the big bad raids were the game to them.
With all that said... they are still similar when you look solely at the basic concept... Pick class, Level, hit cap, Raid with guild for gear.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I don't think anyone would deny that. To that point, 'Doom clone' and 'Quake clone' were very common terms during the early days of FPS games as illustrated here:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you think that, you're delusional.
Dark Age of Camelot was a game centered around RvR. That alone splits it from the list I detailed. Not to mention the fact that, it had no instanced, the zones weren't linear, it didn't have quest based leveling, it didn't have tiered raiding, and oh here's this, it released BEFORE WoW, so it cannot be a WoW clone. Is it a sandbox? No. Is it a theme park? No. It's somewhere in between, where more games should be.
I didn't say sandbox games were "hard", nor did I mention them at all in my list. What I described are all features that were popularized by WoW, and what almost every MMO from the past 5 years has followed in its design. The only exceptions I can think of are Fallen Earth, Darkfall, and Vanguard almost escapes the list, but falls short.
Before WoW clones existed, you could try to call things EQ clones for the same reasons, except... hm, it seems almost all games before WoW's launch were quite different and distinct from one another. They all had their own mechanics and learning curves. That's more than can be said for modern MMOs, you know how to play them the second you log in, because they're all the same.
Here's the list for those who missed it.
a) extremely simply, with tons of in game tools to make it so the player doesn't have to think (glowing quest objectives, auto tracking mini map showing you where to walk, !!! over every NPC head with a quest, no death penalty)
b) focuses on soloing to the end game cap
c) overuses instances/has no real dungeons
d) focuses on PvE and loot gathering as the only objective to the game
e) end game consists of raiding, and a tacked on instanced PvP afterthought
f) raiding is instanced, and tiered, so you need to grind each raid about 20 times before you go to the next one
g) linear zones funneling the player from hub to hub
h) quest based leveling, questing is the ONLY viable way to level, discourages grouping up and hunting
And yes, a better label would be : Quest Grinder
WoW clones in my book. (Primarily because they look almost identical):
Alganon, Allods Online and Warhammer Online
Anyone who looks at the interface of these games and doesn't immediately compare it to WoW is hittin the pipe.
OK so you all realize that there really isnt a game in the genre that's exactly like WoW.
Good.
Heh you know why i posted this? I was exploring a bit in Lotro today and some douchebag came onto OOC chat and started saying the game was an exact clone of WoW lol.
After blasting this guy i figured i'd come here and get a few of my fellow mmorpg.com peoples opinions on the matter. And that opinion is? No game is an exact copy.
I mean seriously if i wanted a game like WoW, wouldnt i just play WoW?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Why is EQ not a WoW clone? I said in my post already. The style of level up, and raid, can be attributed to EQ. But you cannot attribute instances, ease of play, quest grinding, hand holding, lack of depth, or linear zones to EQ. Those are all elements of WoW, and thus, WoW clones.
If you can't see the HUGE difference between WoW and EQ, you haven't played MMOs for very long.
EQ - virtual world, focuses on socializing to survive the harsh environment
WoW - Friendly/easy arcade world, that focuses on soloing through instances
Runes of Magic =WoW clone and a pretty good one at that..
Yes you are quite right. If you take out everything that makes them different, they are quite similar.
SO in DAoC you didn't do quests? pick a class? level to a level cap? have pve content to run for gear? of course you did!!!!
Sure it had a great pvp system but other games have pretty awesome mechanics as well so how am i delusional for adding DAoC in the Themepark category when you yourself are doing the same shit with other games?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I consider LotRO a WoW clone. Is your head going to explode now?
LotRO is one of those games that was once original, that was turned into a WoW clone.
The linear zones with invisible walls, the instanced quests, the gear grind/epic items, quest based leveling, the raiding system, those were all tacked on during beta, during a shift in Turbine policies. It was originally quite a unique game, in alpha when I played, but got NGE'd when WoW became popular. So no, its not a 100% clone, some bits of uniqueness shine through from the alpha days (morale system, which has since been WoWified, the lore book), but now its shamelessly copying WoW.
People do that same thing all the time with the newer games. They look at lotro, WAR or even AoC and completely ignore anything that would make them different from other games. That's the problem.
Its silly isnt it?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
The world is a wow clone, you are all F****** wow clones. end of argument
You did quests, but you didn't do them to level up, and they were not instanced. All RPGs have quests, you can't keep broadening the term or you're going to catch every RPG ever made in the web. My list is very specific and to the point. These are features popularized by WoW, they make up a WoW clone. Did I say picking a class was an element of a WoW clone? No. SWG had classes, a very unique class system, but if you were to call that an EQ clone you would get flogged.
PvE in DAoC was similar to EQ, but since PvE was only 1/4 the game, calling it a clone is not very accurate. And no, you could get gear from PvP and crafting, not just PvE. The best gear came from multiple sources. That's why raids were optional, unlike WoW.
IM playing through Lotro right now and i can honestly say its a unique experience for me.
How the quests are tied to everything and the story is actually important. I didnt feel that in WoW.
You say the game has invisible walls but i've been exploring and enjoying what the game has too offer for three weeks now.
It feels just as open as any other game... The crafting, housing and music system are freaking awesome.
The classes with the use of the traits system is anything but "Wowified".
I honestly don't even think were talking about the same game lol.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Other than Alganon and maybe one or two others, I haven't seem many people say a certain MMO is an exact copy of WOW. However if someone posted that a game was a WOW clone, most - if not all - the people here would expect a class-restricted level-based game primarily focused around fighting when they tried it and wouldn't feel they were led astray as to the type of game it was.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you compared current LotRO with original LotRO, its very obvious where they changed it to resemble WoW. I consider it a slightly classier version of WoW due to the better crafting and storyline, but its WoW mechanics all the same. The quest grind may be even worse in LotRO. Glowing ring over head, run to marked spot on map, kill 10/10 boars from the 100th time, run back, do it again.
When was the last time you played DAoC? Will you people do me a favor ? when you try to make a point bringing up a game thats already radically changed doesnt help you.
How is DAoC now? Oh thats right the same as everything else... Fuck DaoC now is no different than one of the games you call a "wowclone" WAR. a game thats main focus is ignored by this community just so you can use the term Wowclone to insult the people still playing it because you dont like it lol.
Also i remember EQ screwing itself up pretty good even before WoW came into the picture. It lead the way with the dumbing down buddy.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Seems I touched a nerve. Even now, with DAoC a shadow of a shadow of a shadow of its former self, with so many stupid changes, is STILL quite different from WoW. The only WoW like thing it has now is quest based leveling, which I abhor, as do many others.
I kinda wish some of those WoW supporters would join this discussion.
I guess their all trying to relearn their classes after the last patch lol.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
YOu didn't touch anything have you forgotten who i am? or what my post history is like?
Im a god damn Oldschool mmo/sandbox fanatic. Even if i happen to like Lotro...
I've used the term WoWclone before but i disagree that all these games are exact clones of WoW.
If were arguing if these games fall in the themepark sub-genre, we could stop now LOL because i know they do.
I just wanted to point out that the games are different
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
People confuse generic korean MMOs with wow clones for some reason, the formula is the same for every game. I very rarely use the word but to me it applies to a few games such as Alganon, allods and 4story but the wow inspiration can be seen in pretty much every game released after it...that doesn't make them wow clones but it does bring a very similar type of gameplay in a lot of games with a twist of their own.
Since I'm paying a monthly subscription to WoW I guess you could call me a WoW supporter, that doesn't mean I agree with your opinion.
I'm glad this post popped up because it had me questioning who here had actually played both EQ and WoW. The thing WoW did and why it so often gets compared to EQ is that it gave a lot of people(including myself) that great feeling that EQ had given when i first started playing mmos. But by lv 15 in WoW you can tell the the games aren't similar at all. The only thing EQ started was the raid grind and i guess gear grinding. Those are the ONLY similarities that the two games have.
To level up in EQ you got groups and camped out spots for decent xp. WoW was pretty solo centric for all classes and you only grouped for instances or elite quests out in the world. Their xp was gained through hundreds of solo quest you acquired while going from hub to hub. In EQ you always had a couple of choices of places to travel to to level but they were usually for specific camps
Instances didn't even come about in EQ until the expansion LDoN where there were randomly generated dungeons that you could choose which type of mission you wanted them to be. Before that all dungeons were open world where you encountered other groups. NOTHING like WoW where all dungeons were instanced.
Another huge difference is look at the way skills worked. Compare the warrior's variation of skill from EQ and WoW and you'd laugh your ass off just thinking about it. Until the 50s and a couple expansions warriors only taunted kicked and bashed in EQ. That plays nothing at all like the WoW warrior.
My point is that the games are so vastly different that to call WoW an EQ clone is dumber than all the other games that get classified as WoW clones by far considering that there were next to no similar things between the two games. So in conclusion we all need to seriousily think before we keep putting stupid labels on games especially when if you barely even crack the surface you see that like with these two, you have completely different types of beasts.