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Guys, COME ON
ConverseSC
Member Posts: 572
I really don't understand all these people expecting SW:ToR to fail. It's impossible to tell whether it will be a success or failure, but I can assure you that it won't fail because people don't like tunnel shooters and want more information about PvP. Your casual MMO player couldn't care less about that sort of stuff. On the other hand, they couldn't care less about story or cinematic dialogue options. All they are going to care about is the ease/assecessibility of the game and the ability to swing around a lightsaber. I personally believe that SWG would have been a tremendous success if it had adopted a simpler, more casual-friendly atmosphere from the very beginning. You can't try to tack that stuff on later and expect people to actually try your game. You have to have that philosophy from the very beginning.
If you predicting that this game will be a failure, at least be realistic. Don't pretend like the issues you care about (as a niche, hardcore MMO veteran) are the same things that your casual WoW player will care about. It's just silly.
EDIT: This was supposed to be a post in the Massively.com joins ranks of TOR critics thread. I have no idea why it got made into a separate topic. Don't respond to this thread.
Comments
...And thats why I hate all those "hardcore-casual" gamers...By that I mean people who spent time playing farmville, sims3 and Wii at home with their children...this lame excuse for gamers is the reason TOR looks how it looks, the reason WoW is getting simpler and simpler, the reason why we dont see games like baldurs gate etc...they are completely ruining the game-world..
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Well, it's not like this is the only upcoming MMO coming out. There should be multiple MMOs in circulation in order to suit people's differing tastes.
There can be MMOs that are accessible and have low barriers to entry. There can also be MMOs designed with complexity and variety in mind. Both good in their own way. I just think that the former is easier to turn a profit with.
no comment.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I thought this was funny then I read his whole post...
this is going to be the 3rd star wars mmo...
the game will prolly be good, but some are kinda burnt out on SW
Bull shit. Casual is where the money is. Why the hell would this game have been anything more to start with?
I don't claim to know if the game will be a success or failure in terms of how many copies are sold. Or how many people play it. Wow is played by 13 millions, so by that logic WOW is the best MMO. Which, IMO, it isn't.
I try to focus on shortcomings and things I simply don't like or find too limited or mission. Always: as far as we know. With new info everything can change, and the final rating comes when the game is there. I don't see any issue in talking about games before release tho. We have done that all those years so why should it be so different now? *shrug*
Somehow I fail to see the uniqueness here.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You try to focus on on shortcomings and things you don't like... you must be a very cheerful person.
"Hi guys, I try to be negative and shit on everything I see."
Fortunately there is only 1 of him in the world, so take his negative viewpoint and dilute it by however many billion ppl there are on this blue green planet of ours and you'll see how very very unimportant it truly is, just like mine
.
You just wait until my 2 million clones are ready on Camino, then we take over the forums all over the world! Muahahaha! XD
Well... most things in life ARE terrible. I just say how it is. =P
Nah, seriously, I see myself as pragmatic realist. I love the things which are good, but I also try to see what is NOT good or not good as it could be. I have seen way too much shit in life to see the world through pink glasses anymore. But of course it is just one more view, and you must as ever make your own judgement. Blind agreement is of no interest to me just as blind disagreement.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I guess it allows you to be pleasantly surprised when things aren't as bad as you thought eh Elikal?
I just think that always expecting the worst must be rather miserable. Isn't it better to just not invest so much time and mental energy on it until the game actually comes out and we KNOW how it is going to be? That's what I try to do... At this point there really isn't enough information to know one way or the other. I find it very annoying when people try to paint every bit of released information in a negative light. I just wish we could all discuss the game without the constant DOOM threads.
Don't see what's so funny about it. You can't tell whether or not it will be a success, but it's completely logical to say that it won't fail because of the niche concerns of a vocal minority.
I think ConverseSC has a point here.
A MMO can succeed in selling tons of copies and have many subs, but still be a failure in terms of complexity and demanding. There is the level of monetary success and "artistic" success. So a game can indeed be a failure and a success at the same time. There are just two different levels of judgement.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
True, though I will point out that the landscape is littered with companies/games which were critically acclaimed and heralded as artistic successes, only to fail on the monetary side of things and eventually close up shop.
Some of them I remember, some of them I've forgotten.
On the other hand, when I tell my non-gamer friends that I play MMO's, and they ask "what are those", all I need to so is say "have you heard of WoW" and immediately they start nodding their heads.
I'd argue that what ultimately matters to a company's long-term viability is, and always will be, the mighty dollar. Whether or not what BioWare delivers is an artistic success will be very subjective and debatable until the cows come home... whether or not it is an economic success is very objective, and will be evident within the first 12 months of launch.
To the OP's point... I tend to agree with his opinion/optimism that it will be economically successful for 1 key reason - the Star Wars IP.
You are absolutely right. Everquest created a huge player group that thought PVP was evil. But the game itself was still challenging to a degree. However it created a slippery themepark slope. WOW furthered that by making all the other features simple and easy. As for the Facebook games, EA owns Farmville.
There is a group of players of hopeless fanatics who believe that making money trumps gameplay. Whenever you dare talk about how unchalleging and childish their game is. They retort with WOW made lots of money remarks. While ignoring the fact that the games that copied wow were terrible.
More adult players or mature players who need more risk and challenge. Or a non linear game world are split up amongst the Sandbox style games. EVE has many of them. There are large budget and small budget games coming out that have the type of game you probably want. However the mindless masses are usually attracted to something more like farmville.
Case in point, make any reference to how WOW is like McDonalds and you will be flooded with fan/hate posts in retort. Stating how tired they are of being compared to 1 dollar welfare cheeseburgers and play in an unchallenging environment. However this is a defensive trait. There is a group of people who want to play a simple game but want to be respected as players. Its the same reason people who dont like PVP carebears, want no pvp on their servers. They dont want to be reminded of their immaturaty/inferiority as players. Themeparks are popular with this type of player, they know they can just stand in Instance Ques, never fight anyone, jump from safe zone to safe zone, and stay on group chat all day doing your mom jokes.
I think the problem with people today is that they are so bored with everything that they over analyze every little detail.
A game should not fail if its not challenging/demanding on the brain enough. Its not an exam.
A game should only fail if its not fun.
People pay subs to the games they think are the best and have the best gameplay. Just because a minority doesnt like the gameplay doesnt mean that most dont. People sub the the game they enjoy the most. So this crap about subs and money i always hear is bullshit. People play the games they like, many of you on here talk about dumbing down games and stuff but most adults dont want too complex of a game because a real career is complex enough. Also i laugh when people are like i got to max level in a week in games. There is no possble way if you have a job you can reach endgame in most mmos in a week and if you do then you need to go outside and see the sunlight, take a shower, or eat a meal. I love a challenge dont get me wrong but i dont want a job. I dont want a game so complex that i have to spend half my time reading stuff online to figure it out instead of playing the game.
You dead right that one thing wont sink SWToR but it maybe one thing that stops some players from wanting to spend their spare time playing and something else that just doesn't work for some other players and then something else that gets some other players to decided they would have a better time playing x y or z.
While paying 15 bucks a month may be something of a hurdle, it is also about free time and as such ToR isn't just up against other MMO's but anything that seems like a more enjouable experience. This make the million subs nothing to be ignored and not an easy figure to hit just to break even. So in that respect the folks at EA and Bioware have not made things easy for themsleves and then they make it so its only going to be launched in 3 languages after saying how one of the greatest elements of the game is VO. And from recent reports it sounds like DCOU will likely have greater VO talent that ToR.
But that isn't to say ToR doesn't have the greatest possibility to be amazing but so far BW and EA haven't been helping themselves out. Almost all the information about ToR has been about the setting and the story, which is wonderful but something players may have prefered to learn in game and make them eager to see the next chapter of the story to have those questions answered rather than to have read it on the forum. But the things that are vital to if people will find the game play enjoyable is completely left to people guessing what crafting or combat or progress or guilds or end content or PvP will be like. And after a while of getting nothing but we aren't ready to talk about that you have to wonder if they even know how it will work.
You can find any game fun or not, regardless of whether it is successful or not .
A game is successful if it can make it's development back, and make enough money to keep the servers going and make a profit.
TOR will be a success if it makes money. But, it has to make a LOT of money, because the development costs were high.
An MMORPG is about playing with other players. Being popular is an asset, it means there are lots of other players to engage with.
I think an MMORPG gains a sort of critical mass after a certain amount of players, that propels it forward. My guess is that TOR is going to be a success, and accomplish that critical mass of players to keep it going .
Galaxies was to inaccessible. Grind all the skills in the game to get Jedi? That was a fatal flaw from the beginning.
You read my mind. I just basically posted a book here trying to explain the exact same thing. --->http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/295367/page/5
There Is Always Hope!
OP:
TOR will FAIL in the eyes of those who EXPECT the game to be a traditional sandbox MMORPG.. Since it obviously is not a sandbox MMO, those who have come to love those types of games like EQ, DAOC, and even SWG will not like TOR.. I am one of those gamers.. Based on the information released regarding TOR, I know for a fact I won't be subscribing to the game, since I'm pretty sure I'll lost interest within the first 3 weeks.. But, I'll enjoy the game for what it is and not what it isn't during this time...
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
Honestly, I don't have a problem with the hardcore casual gamers.. You have to blame the Dev's and those at the top of the corporate structure.. The bosses are all about making a huge profit. They could care less about making a awesome passionate game. They rather create a game that will appeal to millions, even if it's only for a month to make as much money as possible during that time, and when ppl quit after the first few months, that company starts terminating people at a rapid pace until theres just a small dev team keeping it on life support......... The President, CEO, and corporate business partners already made their millions from the moron's who purchased the big pile of pew, and they can care less if the people leave..
This business has turned into profit first, customer satisfaction obsolete... They make these mmo's really easy for 6 yr old children to play and just don't really care about those consumer's looking for a awesome gaming experience... This is why the MMO genre has done a major flip flopping over the last 5 years.
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
It always amuses me when the "hardcore-nerd" gamers jump on their high horse and put down everyone else. It's not the casual gamer's fault you don't find mmos challenging anymore. The old school "hardcore" gamers steered mmos to where they are now. Casuals jumped into the genre after the fact. Whenever we complained about time sinks or crazy hard content, devs changed it. Now here we are a decade later, complaining about the the kids that just discovered mmos and trying to shift the blame.
This is one of those opinions I can respect because it is an acknowledgement of a personal preference toward a specific type of game rather then tearing apart a game based on unfounded conclusions or misinformation. It also at least allows for a try and see approach. Regardless, maybe they will surprise you :-), or maybe even worse they will disappoint me hehe
There Is Always Hope!
This.
SWG couldnt beat out EQ, and WoW took the genre to a whole new lvl. If sandbox didnt get it done the first time around, then why the heck would they of done another one?
I find it ironic Pigozz is heralding BG. A game made by BW no less, and by no means a sandbox.
I also find it comical that if a game doesnt go the route of a sandbox economic simulator, then it is marketed towards the Farmville crowd. Or it is the "McDonalds of MMOs"....IE lacking quality.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.