But you know what may be the biggest problem here.. MMORPG's are becomming "games" rather than worlds.. The term Theme park game describes what the MMO genre has become. Now instead of people expecting to be immersed in a world, they play them in "stages" expecting to actually beat them as if they are single player console games.. So after the WoW boom and the start of the theme park era, developers simply follow the money trail..
In a world, think everquest pre-luclin, the entertainment value came from the ability to actually exist within a shared enviroment where the actions of other players as well as your own created a believable atmosphere where true risk vs reward, and adventure were a possibilty.
It had TRUE weather and day/night cycles, ambient sound, dynamic monster spawns that could change based on the weather, time of day and even special events. Besides the starter towns it had no real linear path to follow, dungeons were sprinkled all over and could include mobs of many level ranges. Hell for the social people it even had languages that you could actually speak in and people who didnt know your language wouldn't be able to understand you. They even had the ability to consume alcohol and get drunken tunnel vision while stumbling around. You get the point im sure.
Now-a-days, you basically get to... Grind.. Cut out all the other stuff and replace it with some sort of grind.. Quest grind.. Item grind.. Equipment grind..They cut out the world and basically found the heart of which many players play and based their whole game around it, getting to the next level..
I truly believe that although WoW is an excellent game, that it killed alot of the fun factor we look for in MMORPG's.
I read this entire thread, agree with most of it... but I know this off topic, but I will say this "Fallen Earth" is not a sandbox, not even close -- it's a themepark -- ie. It's driven by quests... and just because you can put skill points into areas you want, does not make the game SANDBOX.
I have fun until I reach max level. The raiding game is just not fun to me. I loved DDO from level 1-20. I enjoyed WoW from level 1-80. I enojyed EQ from level 1-70. I enjoyed DAoC, ok that one is an exception. I love that game until ToA.
its funny, i was just thinking the other day about this, and for the the first time in some 15 years i'm thinking about buying a console.
The way MMOs are being developed, I don't see a ton of difference between them and say xbox live, besides the price. Between the monthly cost of MMOs, and of keeping a gaming rig up to date, i'm trying to find the downside of this decision, and i am hard pressed to find one.
I haven't bought a console since the sega genesis hit the market, and have been playing strictly MMOs since shortly after. With the lack of "world building" by recent games, so many instances, repetative gameplay between titles, and all the rest, i just feel like i could get comparable online gameplay from a console, something i thought i would never say.
Doing a lot more research before i make a desicion, as i have (obviously) been out of the console market for some time.
I read this entire thread, agree with most of it... but I know this off topic, but I will say this "Fallen Earth" is not a sandbox, not even close -- it's a themepark -- ie. It's driven by quests... and just because you can put skill points into areas you want, does not make the game SANDBOX.
Too many mmos are copying console hack n slash. Then they try to sell it as next gen and innovative. When what you really end up with is just an action game. And the genre loses its identity more with each one that comes out.
No, they aren't fun to play. A lot of it was fun to play when it was new, but it got old and the gameplay is just not sustainable with most of these games. The genre is dead. To me, it was murdered with Everquest almost 10 years ago, but it took a while for it to stop breathing. At this time, you can safely bury it. There just isn't much creativity and development in this genre anymore except for a few games like Darkfall that add a first person shooter type gameplay, or what have you.
Some of the larger problems, IMO:
-Boring repetitive quests(kill x mob, deliver A to
-Lack of challenging content and mob AI
-Pvp combat that requires little skill and is predominantly based on level and gear
-Instances instead of a truly open world and dungeons.
-More catering to solo gameplay
-Aggressive marketing policy that has monthly fees, expansions that are almost required to continue to play, and the further use of cash shops
But you know what may be the biggest problem here.. MMORPG's are becomming "games" rather than worlds.. The term Theme park game describes what the MMO genre has become. Now instead of people expecting to be immersed in a world, they play them in "stages" expecting to actually beat them as if they are single player console games.. So after the WoW boom and the start of the theme park era, developers simply follow the money trail..
In a world, think everquest pre-luclin, the entertainment value came from the ability to actually exist within a shared enviroment where the actions of other players as well as your own created a believable atmosphere where true risk vs reward, and adventure were a possibilty.
It had TRUE weather and day/night cycles, ambient sound, dynamic monster spawns that could change based on the weather, time of day and even special events. Besides the starter towns it had no real linear path to follow, dungeons were sprinkled all over and could include mobs of many level ranges. Hell for the social people it even had languages that you could actually speak in and people who didnt know your language wouldn't be able to understand you. They even had the ability to consume alcohol and get drunken tunnel vision while stumbling around. You get the point im sure.
Now-a-days, you basically get to... Grind.. Cut out all the other stuff and replace it with some sort of grind.. Quest grind.. Item grind.. Equipment grind..They cut out the world and basically found the heart of which many players play and based their whole game around it, getting to the next level..
I truly believe that although WoW is an excellent game, that it killed alot of the fun factor we look for in MMORPG's.
I tend to agree with this. Good games have that tight control such as tetris but mmos need to be worlds going out of control imo!
Up until World of Warcraft, most of the people that played and enjoyed the MMO genre were accustomed to sandbox style gameplay. Wildly Successful games boasted a few hundred thousand subscribers. The ease of the game WoW was attracted the console gamers. It was enjoyable enough for them to stay on board. WoW became #1.
WoW attracted the casual gamer, the veteran MMO player was left to grumble in the proverbial corner. Money talks and the evolution of MMO games went from niche metagames and chat drama to a glorified easter egg hunt to win.
That is not to say WoW didn't have its share of drama and metagames. They sure did. I do not recall Everquest, DAOC, Shadowbane and the like having so many videos made like WoW. Player made documentaries, dramatic movies and the like are everywhere.
They aren't fun for the OP, because he is an aging breed of player. He is a sandboxer. Just like in the early 90s, there will be few games that will quench your thirst, always. Why, because developers will no longer invest millions of dollars and tie up those funds for 4+ years. Indy developers will slowly forge out their niche games for you, but they are handcrafted, flawed and require lots of patience for the sandboxer to endure.
For the casual player, MMOs offer an opportunity to wade into the online pool and splash around. Sometimes they continue on to become veteran swimmers and even lifeguards for others. Most will move on to the next swimming pool that offers a slide or another trinket feature. Nothgin wrong with it. just the way it is.
Up until World of Warcraft, most of the people that played and enjoyed the MMO genre were accustomed to sandbox style gameplay. Wildly Successful games boasted a few hundred thousand subscribers. The ease of the game WoW was attracted the console gamers. It was enjoyable enough for them to stay on board. WoW became #1.
WoW attracted the casual gamer, the veteran MMO player was left to grumble in the proverbial corner. Money talks and the evolution of MMO games went from niche metagames and chat drama to a glorified easter egg hunt to win.
That is not to say WoW didn't have its share of drama and metagames. They sure did. I do not recall Everquest, DAOC, Shadowbane and the like having so many videos made like WoW. Player made documentaries, dramatic movies and the like are everywhere.
They aren't fun for the OP, because he is an aging breed of player. He is a sandboxer. Just like in the early 90s, there will be few games that will quench your thirst, always. Why, because developers will no longer invest millions of dollars and tie up those funds for 4+ years. Indy developers will slowly forge out their niche games for you, but they are handcrafted, flawed and require lots of patience for the sandboxer to endure.
For the casual player, MMOs offer an opportunity to wade into the online pool and splash around. Sometimes they continue on to become veteran swimmers and even lifeguards for others. Most will move on to the next swimming pool that offers a slide or another trinket feature. Nothgin wrong with it. just the way it is.
And these are usually the first people to start crying when it starts raining outside. The pool jumpers who usually don't spend very long in each pool, but will complain the heaviest when it starts to pour or even sprinkle a little.
These "fair-weather fans" basically control the industry right now..
Up until World of Warcraft, most of the people that played and enjoyed the MMO genre were accustomed to sandbox style gameplay. Wildly Successful games boasted a few hundred thousand subscribers. The ease of the game WoW was attracted the console gamers. It was enjoyable enough for them to stay on board. WoW became #1.
WoW attracted the casual gamer, the veteran MMO player was left to grumble in the proverbial corner. Money talks and the evolution of MMO games went from niche metagames and chat drama to a glorified easter egg hunt to win.
That is not to say WoW didn't have its share of drama and metagames. They sure did. I do not recall Everquest, DAOC, Shadowbane and the like having so many videos made like WoW. Player made documentaries, dramatic movies and the like are everywhere.
They aren't fun for the OP, because he is an aging breed of player. He is a sandboxer. Just like in the early 90s, there will be few games that will quench your thirst, always. Why, because developers will no longer invest millions of dollars and tie up those funds for 4+ years. Indy developers will slowly forge out their niche games for you, but they are handcrafted, flawed and require lots of patience for the sandboxer to endure.
For the casual player, MMOs offer an opportunity to wade into the online pool and splash around. Sometimes they continue on to become veteran swimmers and even lifeguards for others. Most will move on to the next swimming pool that offers a slide or another trinket feature. Nothgin wrong with it. just the way it is.
And these are usually the first people to start crying when it starts raining outside. The pool jumpers who usually don't spend very long in each pool, but will complain the heaviest when it starts to pour or even sprinkle a little.
These "fair-weather fans" basically control the industry right now..
For the casual player, MMOs offer an opportunity to wade into the online pool and splash around. Sometimes they continue on to become veteran swimmers and even lifeguards for others. Most will move on to the next swimming pool that offers a slide or another trinket feature. Nothgin wrong with it. just the way it is.
And these are usually the first people to start crying when it starts raining outside. The pool jumpers who usually don't spend very long in each pool, but will complain the heaviest when it starts to pour or even sprinkle a little.
These "fair-weather fans" basically control the industry right now..
Actual casual gamers are pretty consistent players...they just play a game for fewer hours per week, but nothing stops them from playing that game for years. They are by far the biggest source of revenue for MMOs. Ignoring 90%+ of the playerbase would be rather idiotic.
This is probably my largest complaint with MMOs; they're just not fun. I can't think of a single MMO which when translated into a single player experience would be even remotely enjoyable.
And I love how people accept, and even defend, these horrible games on the sole basis of, "...it's an MMO."
Yes, as if that's a legitimate excuse for basic gameplay to be atrocious.
The basis of the terrible gameplay is generally RNG dominated RPG combat which is incredibly dull and disengaging. In 2010 I get the feeling that people are more and more interested in an action based experienced, like shooters (Bioware and Bethesda confirm this trend with their recent titles), then a predominately stat driven tab-targeting fest.
Seriously though, can anyone think of a single MMO's combat that is enjoyable enough to be used verbatim in a single player game? I can't... and most would make me cringe and immediately delete the game.
I guess I could make a case for Global Agenda but that's not an MMO to begin with.
This is probably my largest complaint with MMOs; they're just not fun. I can't think of a single MMO which when translated into a single player experience would be even remotely enjoyable.
And I love how people accept, and even defend, these horrible games on the sole basis of, "...it's an MMO."
Yes, as if that's a legitimate excuse for basic gameplay to be atrocious.
The basis of the terrible gameplay is generally RNG dominated RPG combat which is incredibly dull and disengaging. In 2010 I get the feeling that people are more and more interested in an action based experienced, like shooters (Bioware and Bethesda confirm this trend with their recent titles), then a predominately stat driven tab-targeting fest.
Seriously though, can anyone think of a single MMO's combat that is enjoyable enough to be used verbatim in a single player game? I can't... and most would make me cringe and immediately delete the game.
I guess I could make a case for Global Agenda but that's not an MMO to begin with.
Non-action combat can be good if there is a lot of depth to it. I think pretty much no MMO has a lot of depth to the decisions one player makes in combat.
I agree though, the guy at Undead Labs was pretty much correct when he said that MMOs get cut a lot of slack with bad gameplay because of the social environment.
Originally posted by Banquetto The dirty secret of MMOs: the bulk of players are Achiever-type gambler personalities, and developers have discovered that Achievers Gamblers will perform repetitive activities that aren't actually fun if there is a reward at the end of it. I don't share your view that all or even most of MMO's gameplay isn't fun, but you have to be watchful if you want to avoid being sucked into un-fun activities without noticing that it is happening.
Actual Achiever personalities are rarely playing MMOs; they're too busy, you know, achieving something in real life like becoming a doctor.
Yes, many complain about the lack of freedom and such which is a problem, but the real problem is that the minute to minute gameplay isn't fun. Lets take WoW. You click on a guy, watch you Avatar hack on him for a little bit, maybe spam a few skill combos, then one of you falls over.
Thrilling.
This is why I would much rather play Fallen Earth then Eve. Yes I like the idea of Sandboxes better, and that's what eve has going for it, the metagame. The metagame is interesting, upgrading your ship and world polotics and such. But is the actual gameplay itself fun? Not really. Yes FE is a Themepark, but imo it's far more entertaining even though it lacks alot of depth. The real problem is that MMO's have crappy, boring gameplay. Not that a game is streamlined or open or whatever.
You could downplay the fun of ANY game by putting it in that context.
"right-click, zap a guy, or left click, shoot a guy. Do it enough times in his direction and he drops over dead. Thrilling. Bioshock is lame."
Personally, I have a blast in almost every aspect of LotRO. I press the same number keys as I do in a game I don't particularly like, Champions for example, but yet for some strange reason, I like it tons better.
Non-action combat can be good if there is a lot of depth to it. I think pretty much no MMO has a lot of depth to the decisions one player makes in combat.
I agree though, the guy at Undead Labs was pretty much correct when he said that MMOs get cut a lot of slack with bad gameplay because of the social environment.
Is that a typo?
If not, you should try playing a high level Warden in LotRO.
Well, again I think these games are what one makes of it and part of the "contract" is that we use our imaginations.
They may or may not offer engaging combat (which doesn't have to be fast to be enjoyable though i recognize that is a personal preference) but they do in many ways offer a world where the player can live and move through.
I remember during LOTRO beta a player was complaining about the combat because it wasn't fast and he felt it wasn't engaging. The discussion then wound around the idea as to whether the combat was there to be a complex part of game play or whether it was there to support the encounter with the player.
So, instead of getting into the nitty gritty of what a combat encounter would have it was a combat game it was more about "legolas encountered an orc on the way to the shire, after a brief scuffle he dispatched the unpleasant thing and continued on his way."
I think that mmo's are more about the the sum of their parts over the "parts".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I would post with something witty, and attention grabbing, but I am too busy grinding out my daily forum posts. Got to get that 'top poster' achievement.
I don't find the content MMO's have fun to play *as such*: if you would single out the content from most MMO's right now and compare it to other, non-MMO games, it wouldn't even begin to hold a candle to even the shittiest games out there.
I honestly can't think anyone would play a singleplayer with the content of an MMO for long and I think such a game would be absolutely destroyed by critics.
Even soloers complete MMO content to carve out a place for themselves in the online society that exists in an MMO, even if they go through the bulk of content alone.
But in the end, that's not a very fair comparison, because the online community also limits the possibilities for content by its very nature.
I do believe games of the future will need to find a middle road and they will need to provide more real quality content (and no I don't mean leaving content out so some people can live their fantasies).
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Non-action combat can be good if there is a lot of depth to it. I think pretty much no MMO has a lot of depth to the decisions one player makes in combat.
I agree though, the guy at Undead Labs was pretty much correct when he said that MMOs get cut a lot of slack with bad gameplay because of the social environment.
Is that a typo?
If not, you should try playing a high level Warden in LotRO.
Why'd you ask if it was a typo if your best example is one class at high level in one game? How's that not pretty much non-existent? Assuming you're right about the high level LotRO Warden, of course.
...because the online community also limits the possibilities for content by its very nature.
Y'know, maybe it's just me, but the original lure of MMOs was that the online community lifts barriers to content by their very nature, don't they?
In Fallout New Vegas it's me, Boone, and ED-E versus the entire Legion. In an MMO I could be bringing the entire NCR Army with me.
What we're really getting down to is the static nature of MMOs and the reason for it is so that one person can't disrupt/eliminate content for another person; that content must persist so everyone can do it.
And when I say content I primarily mean questing. So if we accept the lame nature of the gameworld being a result of questing what would be possible if there simply weren't quests?
What if the gameworld was 100% dynamic? Players could build and destroy every single object, building, vehicle, et cetera, in the gameworld.
Would this type of content be an engaging substitution for quests?
But these are truly huge endeavors orchestrated by groups and not individuals so the sacrifice here seems to be solo play... but then that solo play questing is basically what holds the dynamism of the world back in the first place... so perhaps it's a price worth paying for an experiment or two.
I know I'd be incredibly stoked to jump into a gameworld in which the most minute detail could be altered by characters. And though questing may not exist I don't think it's a huge leap to throw in some NPC factions with some actual goals that they attempt to realize.
I think another aspect which would have be somewhat minimized, at least relative to other MMOs, is combat. And by "minimize" I mean simply to make less frequent which I feel is a sacrifice that would have to be made as each encounter itself would in some way help to shape the gameworld. So there would be less but it would have more meaning.
It's certainly an interesting thing to ponder... I hope one day some devs make a game like that.
Non-action combat can be good if there is a lot of depth to it. I think pretty much no MMO has a lot of depth to the decisions one player makes in combat.
I agree though, the guy at Undead Labs was pretty much correct when he said that MMOs get cut a lot of slack with bad gameplay because of the social environment.
Is that a typo?
If not, you should try playing a high level Warden in LotRO.
Why'd you ask if it was a typo if your best example is one class at high level in one game? How's that not pretty much non-existent? Assuming you're right about the high level LotRO Warden, of course.
Yes, it was my BEST example, as in, better than all my other examples. And yes, I say higher level because all classes are pretty simple at lower levels. I didn't want folks retorting "my level 10 Warden with only 5 manuevers wasn't deep at all!
But pretty much all the LotRO classes I've played up to a significant level have a pretty good amount of depth. It's pretty much never a matter of starting out with the highest damage attack and moving downward. There are different strategies for starting combat with different mobs, interrupt queues, tactical options...
I agree, most MMOs aren't real fun in the gameplay department, they're more focused on the grind... skilllevelgearwhatever.
If I understand you and the OP correctly, you feel the average gamer is a masochistic idiot that pays monthly fees for games that they don't find fun. Either that, or millions upon millions of gamers do actually find MMOs fun to play.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
But you know what may be the biggest problem here.. MMORPG's are becomming "games" rather than worlds.. The term Theme park game describes what the MMO genre has become. Now instead of people expecting to be immersed in a world, they play them in "stages" expecting to actually beat them as if they are single player console games.. So after the WoW boom and the start of the theme park era, developers simply follow the money trail..
In a world, think everquest pre-luclin, the entertainment value came from the ability to actually exist within a shared enviroment where the actions of other players as well as your own created a believable atmosphere where true risk vs reward, and adventure were a possibilty.
It had TRUE weather and day/night cycles, ambient sound, dynamic monster spawns that could change based on the weather, time of day and even special events. Besides the starter towns it had no real linear path to follow, dungeons were sprinkled all over and could include mobs of many level ranges. Hell for the social people it even had languages that you could actually speak in and people who didnt know your language wouldn't be able to understand you. They even had the ability to consume alcohol and get drunken tunnel vision while stumbling around. You get the point im sure.
Now-a-days, you basically get to... Grind.. Cut out all the other stuff and replace it with some sort of grind.. Quest grind.. Item grind.. Equipment grind..They cut out the world and basically found the heart of which many players play and based their whole game around it, getting to the next level..
I truly believe that although WoW is an excellent game, that it killed alot of the fun factor we look for in MMORPG's.
I have fun playing MMO's. I am very sorry if you do not. Have fun playing whatever it is you do like.
Currently bored with MMO's.
I read this entire thread, agree with most of it... but I know this off topic, but I will say this "Fallen Earth" is not a sandbox, not even close -- it's a themepark -- ie. It's driven by quests... and just because you can put skill points into areas you want, does not make the game SANDBOX.
I have fun until I reach max level. The raiding game is just not fun to me. I loved DDO from level 1-20. I enjoyed WoW from level 1-80. I enojyed EQ from level 1-70. I enjoyed DAoC, ok that one is an exception. I love that game until ToA.
its funny, i was just thinking the other day about this, and for the the first time in some 15 years i'm thinking about buying a console.
The way MMOs are being developed, I don't see a ton of difference between them and say xbox live, besides the price. Between the monthly cost of MMOs, and of keeping a gaming rig up to date, i'm trying to find the downside of this decision, and i am hard pressed to find one.
I haven't bought a console since the sega genesis hit the market, and have been playing strictly MMOs since shortly after. With the lack of "world building" by recent games, so many instances, repetative gameplay between titles, and all the rest, i just feel like i could get comparable online gameplay from a console, something i thought i would never say.
Doing a lot more research before i make a desicion, as i have (obviously) been out of the console market for some time.
That's exactley what I said.
Too many mmos are copying console hack n slash. Then they try to sell it as next gen and innovative. When what you really end up with is just an action game. And the genre loses its identity more with each one that comes out.
No, they aren't fun to play. A lot of it was fun to play when it was new, but it got old and the gameplay is just not sustainable with most of these games. The genre is dead. To me, it was murdered with Everquest almost 10 years ago, but it took a while for it to stop breathing. At this time, you can safely bury it. There just isn't much creativity and development in this genre anymore except for a few games like Darkfall that add a first person shooter type gameplay, or what have you.
Some of the larger problems, IMO:
-Boring repetitive quests(kill x mob, deliver A to
-Lack of challenging content and mob AI
-Pvp combat that requires little skill and is predominantly based on level and gear
-Instances instead of a truly open world and dungeons.
-More catering to solo gameplay
-Aggressive marketing policy that has monthly fees, expansions that are almost required to continue to play, and the further use of cash shops
I tend to agree with this. Good games have that tight control such as tetris but mmos need to be worlds going out of control imo!
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Up until World of Warcraft, most of the people that played and enjoyed the MMO genre were accustomed to sandbox style gameplay. Wildly Successful games boasted a few hundred thousand subscribers. The ease of the game WoW was attracted the console gamers. It was enjoyable enough for them to stay on board. WoW became #1.
WoW attracted the casual gamer, the veteran MMO player was left to grumble in the proverbial corner. Money talks and the evolution of MMO games went from niche metagames and chat drama to a glorified easter egg hunt to win.
That is not to say WoW didn't have its share of drama and metagames. They sure did. I do not recall Everquest, DAOC, Shadowbane and the like having so many videos made like WoW. Player made documentaries, dramatic movies and the like are everywhere.
They aren't fun for the OP, because he is an aging breed of player. He is a sandboxer. Just like in the early 90s, there will be few games that will quench your thirst, always. Why, because developers will no longer invest millions of dollars and tie up those funds for 4+ years. Indy developers will slowly forge out their niche games for you, but they are handcrafted, flawed and require lots of patience for the sandboxer to endure.
For the casual player, MMOs offer an opportunity to wade into the online pool and splash around. Sometimes they continue on to become veteran swimmers and even lifeguards for others. Most will move on to the next swimming pool that offers a slide or another trinket feature. Nothgin wrong with it. just the way it is.
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And these are usually the first people to start crying when it starts raining outside. The pool jumpers who usually don't spend very long in each pool, but will complain the heaviest when it starts to pour or even sprinkle a little.
These "fair-weather fans" basically control the industry right now..
I wish I could disagree, but I can't.
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Actual casual gamers are pretty consistent players...they just play a game for fewer hours per week, but nothing stops them from playing that game for years. They are by far the biggest source of revenue for MMOs. Ignoring 90%+ of the playerbase would be rather idiotic.
This is probably my largest complaint with MMOs; they're just not fun. I can't think of a single MMO which when translated into a single player experience would be even remotely enjoyable.
And I love how people accept, and even defend, these horrible games on the sole basis of, "...it's an MMO."
Yes, as if that's a legitimate excuse for basic gameplay to be atrocious.
The basis of the terrible gameplay is generally RNG dominated RPG combat which is incredibly dull and disengaging. In 2010 I get the feeling that people are more and more interested in an action based experienced, like shooters (Bioware and Bethesda confirm this trend with their recent titles), then a predominately stat driven tab-targeting fest.
Seriously though, can anyone think of a single MMO's combat that is enjoyable enough to be used verbatim in a single player game? I can't... and most would make me cringe and immediately delete the game.
I guess I could make a case for Global Agenda but that's not an MMO to begin with.
Non-action combat can be good if there is a lot of depth to it. I think pretty much no MMO has a lot of depth to the decisions one player makes in combat.
I agree though, the guy at Undead Labs was pretty much correct when he said that MMOs get cut a lot of slack with bad gameplay because of the social environment.
Actual Achiever personalities are rarely playing MMOs; they're too busy, you know, achieving something in real life like becoming a doctor.
You could downplay the fun of ANY game by putting it in that context.
"right-click, zap a guy, or left click, shoot a guy. Do it enough times in his direction and he drops over dead. Thrilling. Bioshock is lame."
Personally, I have a blast in almost every aspect of LotRO. I press the same number keys as I do in a game I don't particularly like, Champions for example, but yet for some strange reason, I like it tons better.
Is that a typo?
If not, you should try playing a high level Warden in LotRO.
Well, again I think these games are what one makes of it and part of the "contract" is that we use our imaginations.
They may or may not offer engaging combat (which doesn't have to be fast to be enjoyable though i recognize that is a personal preference) but they do in many ways offer a world where the player can live and move through.
I remember during LOTRO beta a player was complaining about the combat because it wasn't fast and he felt it wasn't engaging. The discussion then wound around the idea as to whether the combat was there to be a complex part of game play or whether it was there to support the encounter with the player.
So, instead of getting into the nitty gritty of what a combat encounter would have it was a combat game it was more about "legolas encountered an orc on the way to the shire, after a brief scuffle he dispatched the unpleasant thing and continued on his way."
I think that mmo's are more about the the sum of their parts over the "parts".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I would post with something witty, and attention grabbing, but I am too busy grinding out my daily forum posts. Got to get that 'top poster' achievement.
I agree, but with some nuance.
I don't find the content MMO's have fun to play *as such*: if you would single out the content from most MMO's right now and compare it to other, non-MMO games, it wouldn't even begin to hold a candle to even the shittiest games out there.
I honestly can't think anyone would play a singleplayer with the content of an MMO for long and I think such a game would be absolutely destroyed by critics.
Even soloers complete MMO content to carve out a place for themselves in the online society that exists in an MMO, even if they go through the bulk of content alone.
But in the end, that's not a very fair comparison, because the online community also limits the possibilities for content by its very nature.
I do believe games of the future will need to find a middle road and they will need to provide more real quality content (and no I don't mean leaving content out so some people can live their fantasies).
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Why'd you ask if it was a typo if your best example is one class at high level in one game? How's that not pretty much non-existent? Assuming you're right about the high level LotRO Warden, of course.
Y'know, maybe it's just me, but the original lure of MMOs was that the online community lifts barriers to content by their very nature, don't they?
In Fallout New Vegas it's me, Boone, and ED-E versus the entire Legion. In an MMO I could be bringing the entire NCR Army with me.
What we're really getting down to is the static nature of MMOs and the reason for it is so that one person can't disrupt/eliminate content for another person; that content must persist so everyone can do it.
And when I say content I primarily mean questing. So if we accept the lame nature of the gameworld being a result of questing what would be possible if there simply weren't quests?
What if the gameworld was 100% dynamic? Players could build and destroy every single object, building, vehicle, et cetera, in the gameworld.
Would this type of content be an engaging substitution for quests?
But these are truly huge endeavors orchestrated by groups and not individuals so the sacrifice here seems to be solo play... but then that solo play questing is basically what holds the dynamism of the world back in the first place... so perhaps it's a price worth paying for an experiment or two.
I know I'd be incredibly stoked to jump into a gameworld in which the most minute detail could be altered by characters. And though questing may not exist I don't think it's a huge leap to throw in some NPC factions with some actual goals that they attempt to realize.
I think another aspect which would have be somewhat minimized, at least relative to other MMOs, is combat. And by "minimize" I mean simply to make less frequent which I feel is a sacrifice that would have to be made as each encounter itself would in some way help to shape the gameworld. So there would be less but it would have more meaning.
It's certainly an interesting thing to ponder... I hope one day some devs make a game like that.
Yes, it was my BEST example, as in, better than all my other examples. And yes, I say higher level because all classes are pretty simple at lower levels. I didn't want folks retorting "my level 10 Warden with only 5 manuevers wasn't deep at all!
But pretty much all the LotRO classes I've played up to a significant level have a pretty good amount of depth. It's pretty much never a matter of starting out with the highest damage attack and moving downward. There are different strategies for starting combat with different mobs, interrupt queues, tactical options...
If I understand you and the OP correctly, you feel the average gamer is a masochistic idiot that pays monthly fees for games that they don't find fun. Either that, or millions upon millions of gamers do actually find MMOs fun to play.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre