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Get rid of the math in mmo's!!
Gintoh
Member UncommonPosts: 329
Here is an article from undea labs I found.
"I don’t like MMOs.
I love the idea of MMOs. The idea of playing in a massive, persistent world with my best friends and folks from all over the world is incredibly appealing. Current MMOs offer the world, and tons of players, but I’m an action gamer and that’s just not what MMOs are right now.
I’ve been dreaming about what an MMO could be since I was a n00b designer. In my mind I always pictured my friends and I piling into a car and tearing off into a massive world. They would lean out of the car, shooting and swinging bats.
Why aren’t MMOs really like that?
MMOs get breaks because of their social nature, but if you really look at them closely they’re barely even games. Mario 64 (nearly 15 years old at this point) feels better than any MMO I’ve ever played. MMOs aren’t even close to keeping up with cutting edge videogames from a gameplay or presentation perspective.
I’m a console guy. I always have been. I cut my teeth on the NES, playing Mario 3 and Contra. I got completely sucked into A Link to the Past and Super Metroid. The FEELING of interacting with the world has always been stronger for me on consoles; it’s what they’re made for.
What about MMOs? What if we replaced all the math with action? What if an MMO could feel like a kickass console game?
How about we give you a bat, and when you press a button to swing that bat, it hits things. Not just range tests to the target, but your bat has collision and the path it moves through defines what you hit. Not numbers and spreadsheets behind the scenes, but you actually hit that thing with your weapon.
How about if you could actually dodge out of the way of enemy attacks? Not a skill that gives you an increased percentage to do some counter-math against the opponent’s formula, but an actual dodge-out-of-the-way that lets you duck just underneath the rotting grasp of an attacking zombie.
How about some actual guild goals? Not, “We’re doing this raid to get our healer caught up on gear,” but instead, “We’re going to raid the power plant because if we clear it out we can get power to our community and get our communications network online.”
Imagine plowing a modified death truck into a swarm of zombies to clear a path to a building your community wants to scavenge. Imagine vaulting over a couch smoothly into a jump kick, whipping out your pistols and nailing a couple of quick headshots, then diving out the window onto the back of an RV that your buddies are driving. Imagine loading a car up with explosives, driving full speed at a massive swarm of zombies, diving out and detonating the trap just as it plows its way to the heart of the horde.
"
Why aren't mmo's like this, huh? Why do we have boring numbers instead of fun?
Comments
In other words, you want an MMOFPS, not an MMORPG.
Mortal Online? Granted it's a buggy mess right now, but the combat is how you're describing it. Swing and your sword hits what's in its path, be it person, equipment, animal or what have you. I think MMOs are slowly moving in that direction but it may be a while before we see any major studio make a game like that. We can always hope.
I agree, get rid of math in mmos but keep it in mmorpgs. In the end I still want to play a rpg game.
I'd play a community game that offered a variety of modern gaming mechanics.
1 class can be a FPS type. The other all sneaky sick like MGS. Another all acrobatic like Assassins Creed and nameless others. Another all smash smash super smash like God of War. All in one game, where they can work towards actual goals; not gear.
You sir, are probably 8 MMO generations too early.
But I'd love to see it one day.
Hopefully TERA and GW2 will change that.
Whoever wrote that article has NOT played an MMO in a while. I mean, swing a bat and it hits whatever is in the path? That is axactly what sword weilders do in ANY mmo. It seems to me that he is expecting EVERYONE to have this UBER gaming computer to play on so every MMO can look absolutely amazing. Sorry, but that just is not the case. He actually hurts his case when he admits to being a console player. The problem (and plus) of consoles is they are ALL the same in a particular generation so the game designers can get very good at designer for that particular console. Computers do not have that problem/plus. Instead we have a variety of computers, with a variety of abilities that designers have to factor in when they design their games. MMOs have to deal with THAT and yet, look at the graphics on most serious MMOs. They are amazing.
All in all, I just can't take this guy seriously. A devoted console player seldom likes MMOs and at the same time a serious MMO player normally gets annoyed at the limited and static nature of consoles.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Why dynamic MMO are you play?
The reason online games aren't like that is Internet latency. When you have to show the world in real time, but your computer only knows what it was like 200 ms ago, they have to employ various tricks to disguise that latency. You might be able to make quicker reaction times work in a purely PVE game with no notion of body blocking or knockbacks by having the server broadcast what AI characters are going to do a few hundred milliseconds before they do it. But there's no way to do anything like that for PVP.
But you can't get rid of the math entirely in MMOs. There's a tremendous amount of mathematics going beyond behind the scenes to do any 3D rendering.
Take your pick. MMOs evolve all the time or they simply die out. New updates for a game are demanded by MMO players on a regular basis and normally come as "free" upgrades if it is a subscription OR ftp based MMO while you have to pay for a completely new game if you want ANY new content in a console game. MMOs also have the added benefit that as the "average" technology in computers improve, the graphics/abilities of the games engine can also be improved. With a console game, it remains the same forever and can never improve.
Don't get me wrong. Consoles can be fun, but after beating the same game a few times it gets old, while MMOs based on computers evolve if they plan on staying around for a while and trying to make some real money.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
*I am in a rush so I will spell check this later, sorry if it's hard to read!
To Gman3: Well, most mmo's are just single player games with a chat room anyways.
Howabout this for a shooter mmorpg skill system . Say I level up rifle, it doesn't do more damage as I lvl up, or any dice rolls, however I am able to reload faster, be more accurate, less recoil etc. High level items would be like 75% more effective then lower lvl items not 100 times more effective. Using a high level weapon when you have low skill will make the weapon pretty much useless, because it will be so innacurate and have so much recoil. (like if a tried to pick up a SAW machine gun). But you stil can use it if you choose.
Then you would get various abilaties as you level up, such as more damage damage over time etc. That you would get as you leveled up the gun skill, these abilaties don't get better per say, but you get more options in combat which is an advantage. You would also get other abilaties not connected to weapons/armor. Such as as leveling up skills that give you abilaties that lower lower resistences to damage, lower armor, and lower weapon skills of opponents, which would be the rpg aspect as it's about using abilaties at the correct time. Such as if someone is coming at you with a shotgun you use an abilaty to lower shotgun skill. A heavil armored oponent you lower is armor. Certain abilaties could be more powerful when use with other abilaties so you could "chain" them like in normal mmo's. Then these abilaties could be combined with other types of abilaties to customize it and add effects to it and such.
This would combine "twitch" skills, without dice rolls and such, so your weapon does the same amount of damage/if you hit him you hit him, not some dice rol thing.
With strategic use of abilaties. Abilaties would add spice to combat but wouldn't be the main part. They would give an advantage, but it's more about shooting. These abilities would be buffs/debuffs/heals, none would do dame axep for maybe increasing the weapon damage for a time. This sytem would have no levels or classes.
I really have to disagree with this statement, unless, of course, you're talking about Cryptic MMO's. If this is the way you see MMO's, I think you may be playing them wrong.
This is the only part of the post I have a problem with, so it is the only part I will quote.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here personally since teaming up with other people in an MMO is what takes it out of the Single and into the MMO. Teaming up is what makes these games SO different. Different people on a team makes for a different experience EVERY time. Single player games don't have that.
The game I am currently playing is semi-story based and it allows for people with the same missions to complete them "co-operatively" which means all people with the same mission can complete the mission at the same time. On the flip side, if I don't want to complete my parallel mission, I simply choose not too and can then do it again later when I want to. Let's see a console do that.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Well there was this game on a Galaxy far far away..
It was said that there was too much reading in it and we all know what happened to that game.
This guy makes his ideas sound cool, but until he produces a quality MMO and proves they are possible, he's just another great idea fairy swinging his wand around IMO.
MMOs will always be about math. When you swing your bat at someone and it hits them, how hard does it hit? Does the person or thing it hit have more life, hitpoints, durability, resists...any number of variables that could cause it to survive, deflect, or maybe absorb the blow?
Take all the variables out and the only option you have is giving NPCs the ability to one shot players and vice versa. That works for people who like twitch style FPS, but I don't see your standard MMO player liking it.
Taking the math out of MMOS is like taking the engine out of a car.
Math is the nuts and bolts of ALL software that runs on your computer.
Now if you're just saying that YOU don't want to make any mental calculations of any sort, thats understandable, especially coming from a console gamer standpoint. I wouldn't expect a console gamer to know how to type really, much less do anything else with their PC.
Um, online co-op?
The group/community system in mmo's has been so watered down that it seems most are solo games. Everything is so easy, people don't want a challenge. EVE seems to be the only mmo that encourages social interaction.
I know people will say DF and MO, but those games more encourage vitriol then community building.
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Sorry MMO are MMO not singleplayer game , how much you play it as singleplayer game.
Doesn´t mean in time you will get fed up of it .
Its simply not appealing enough to play MMO as solo player without interacting with the community.
Its a bit like this forum , you can read all you want without participating , out of fear of getting trolled insulted baited.
But in the end you choose to participate or not .
MMO binding factor is the special people you will meet , doesn´t matter if its somebody who gets your blood boiling pure out of anger (the nasty experience) or that so sweet guy or girl that makes you wonder if is that person real (the nice experience).
Thats really the magic of MMORPG , aside from drama´s , well i wont go into the too negative aspect of it .
MMO sometimes mirrors real life , without actual real life consequences .
But anyway back to your orginal post , DCUO is trying that and its coming out on console .
They have more interactive way , some say its more action like , street fighter like but at a slower pace.
I will try it out once its out , cause it might be a next gen development plan .
But will it be succesfull , only time can tell , but for now we can only speculate.
About the guild goals , sigh well simple thats something you can roleplay with the guild.
But sadly for raids or gearing up people , you need often none roleplayers , unless you want to be stuck in a dungeon for hours talking about the poor dwarf who hurted his toes ... and then the other person hurted his ankle etc etc etc.....
So a 2 hour raid turned into a 6 hour raid , where 4 hours is spend discussing the pain and sorrows and missery of avatars.
And get rid of reading there is lots of reading in MMOs much to much,and theres a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities, we need to give the players little more than a button mashing whack a mole experience.
I would rather go to the dentist than play that game. An xbox crowd swinging bats in an mmorpg?
I'll pass.
And people complain about lack of innovation in mmos? Man alot of you just come off as conservative pricks.
Anything other than skill spamming and number crunching min/max shit = omg 360 kidz playing mmos...
I think many of you are missing the whole point, which is a good one.. Have MMO's today turned into a math game..
What's your dps?
What's your defence rating?
What's your AC?
How much mana?
How much health?
How many HP does that boss have?
numbers , numbers and numbers are everywhere.. I can understand basic numbers and math being used such as armor class or similar.. But now people are into dps , hps and the ever evil "GEAR SCORE". Has math and numbes taken over MMO's? Instead of role playing, people are calculating everything..
Weren't those always part of rpg games? If you take armor stats, mana, dps, defense rating and all that calculation do you still have a rpg game? If you remove all that then I think you have an action game not a rpg.
At this point you're only showing either your ignorance or your intense dislike for the gaming system. If it is ignorance then please go and improve yourself AND your arguement by getting some more experience. Maybe then you will see that many MMO's actually REQUIRE teaming up (In other words social interaction) to complete some missions/quests. If it is just your dislike, then I guess we are done discussing this.
Plain and simple an MMO is based on a community (while still allowing solo play if desired) while for the most part your console is not and could not be. Even the Halo type FPS where you are competing against other players is not truely an MMO, it is a ghost of an MMO. DC Universe On-Line MAY be able to bring the world of the MMO to a console, but personally I am doubtful it can be pulled off with any real degree of success.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Gary Gynax father of D&D. Our current roleplaying seems to come from some roots.
MMOs in general do not have to have much reading but I am an RPGer at heart so a MMORPG must require reading. I love reading up about the things offered and how I could combine or spec just enough in something to get something else. It is part of the joy of being an MMORPG player. Yes to some extent it involves calculations but roleplaying requires character building that require you to take pride and time to build your toon.That does not mean just building levels but spending your time architecturing said toon.
Sounds to me like this genre is not for you you need the MMOFPS .