The reason online games aren't like that is Internet latency. When you have to show the world in real time, but your computer only knows what it was like 200 ms ago, they have to employ various tricks to disguise that latency. You might be able to make quicker reaction times work in a purely PVE game with no notion of body blocking or knockbacks by having the server broadcast what AI characters are going to do a few hundred milliseconds before they do it. But there's no way to do anything like that for PVP.
But you can't get rid of the math entirely in MMOs. There's a tremendous amount of mathematics going beyond behind the scenes to do any 3D rendering.
This man speaks the true and is the main reason. Play Planetside and engage in a 200+ man battle. You'll see how you have to lead ahead your shot to hit someone because of latency. Or when You lag for a second then everything hits you at once and you die. Or you rubberband for a bit then die because everyone else sees you as standing still.
I will agree that the net is getting better all the time, but you still get tha latency regardless versus none on a console like mario cart because you aren't playing over the net. And yes Console games with internet play have latency too.
I think many of you are missing the whole point, which is a good one.. Have MMO's today turned into a math game..
What's your dps?
What's your defence rating?
What's your AC?
How much mana?
How much health?
How many HP does that boss have?
numbers , numbers and numbers are everywhere.. I can understand basic numbers and math being used such as armor class or similar.. But now people are into dps , hps and the ever evil "GEAR SCORE". Has math and numbes taken over MMO's? Instead of role playing, people are calculating everything..
Now you I can discuss this with. At least you are talking common sense here. The only problem is as far back as I can remember games have ALL been about the Min/Max thing IF you wanted too because of the rise of complexity of games. Hey the original Street Fighter was fun, and had no "Math" to it, but for how long? A month or two? Most every game has risen WAY beyond that now though and for the better I think. I do not cosider myself a Hardcore Min/Max'er, more of a casual player in that department, but that does not mean I will pass up an opportunity to make my character better. That would be foolish. I just won't go way out of my way to do so. For me the story behind a game AND the social interaction is what is so fun about an MMO. For other people the fun is making the best character that can possibly be made. Nothing wrong with either style of play and a LOT more fun than Street Fighter ever thought of being.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I think many of you are missing the whole point, which is a good one.. Have MMO's today turned into a math game..
What's your dps?
What's your defence rating?
What's your AC?
How much mana?
How much health?
How many HP does that boss have?
numbers , numbers and numbers are everywhere.. I can understand basic numbers and math being used such as armor class or similar.. But now people are into dps , hps and the ever evil "GEAR SCORE". Has math and numbes taken over MMO's? Instead of role playing, people are calculating everything..
Weren't those always part of rpg games? If you take armor stats, mana, dps, defense rating and all that calculation do you still have a rpg game? If you remove all that then I think you have an action game not a rpg.
Yes and No.. when some of us started in RPG gaming, it was done with paper and pencil.. Granted we had to "roll" our character up and give them a bio.. In my case I played with friends with one of us normally taking turns hosting a campain as Dungeon Master.. Because we need something to determine who won or lost a fight, math was used after a roll of the dice to determine the outcome..
Todays date is decades later and here we are blessed with the ability to not have to roll dice, and do our own math.. We have computers.. But in anycase, I got off topic.. sorry.. As a RPG fan, we still played the game and never worried about our numbers so to speak.. that was second thought.. Hell, back in those days we didn't "con" the mob to see if it was win or lose fight.. You only found out after you got into one.. LOL So basically from what used to be a genre that was 80% rpg.. is now 80% math.. Where is the rpg?
Gary Gynax father of D&D. Our current roleplaying seems to come from some roots.
MMOs in general do not have to have much reading but I am an RPGer at heart so a MMORPG must require reading. I love reading up about the things offered and how I could combine or spec just enough in something to get something else. It is part of the joy of being an MMORPG player. Yes to some extent it involves calculations but roleplaying requires character building that require you to take pride and time to build your toon.That does not mean just building levels but spending your time architecturing said toon.
Sounds to me like this genre is not for you you need the MMOFPS .
Agree. There are mmorpg and mmo action games and the difference is the same as rpgs and action games. Only because these may have a mmo in front doesn't make em the same and doesn't target the same players. What happened here is that a lot of players are getting into mmorpgs but they never enjoyed the rpg part. They just want a mmo action game. I want a rpg so all that math it's actually why I play these games.
Actually the only game with an unhealthy obsession with figures is WoW. Not every MMORPG is like that. We do not chase people off with a broom because their DPS is not a certain level. I played in other MMORPGs that never did that.We played with friends and never even questioned their builds. Not every game is like that. You are just making generalisations based on one game.
I think many of you are missing the whole point, which is a good one.. Have MMO's today turned into a math game..
What's your dps?
What's your defence rating?
What's your AC?
How much mana?
How much health?
How many HP does that boss have?
numbers , numbers and numbers are everywhere.. I can understand basic numbers and math being used such as armor class or similar.. But now people are into dps , hps and the ever evil "GEAR SCORE". Has math and numbes taken over MMO's? Instead of role playing, people are calculating everything..
Now you I can discuss this with. At least you are talking common sense here. The only problem is as far back as I can remember games have ALL been about the Min/Max thing IF you wanted too because of the rise of complexity of games. Hey the original Street Fighter was fun, and had no "Math" to it, but for how long? A month or two? Most every game has risen WAY beyonf that now though and for the better I think. I do not cosider myself a Hardcore Min/Max'er, more of a casual player in that department, but that does not mean I will pass up an opportunity to make my character better. That would be foolish. I just won't go way out of my way to do so. For me the story behind a game AND the social interaction is what is so fun about an MMO. For other people the fun is making the best character that can possibly be made. Nothing wrong with either style of play and a LOT more fun than Street Fighter ever thought of being.
I find that the standard impatient idiot players and elitist use those benchmarks most. Actual knowledgable players can tell how good you are in the first 5 minutes of playing with you. Or they can simply look at your gear and tell without the math.
Either way as most of those sample metrics are Warcraft generated, they really doesn't do a whole lot of good when you find yourself grouped with an epic geared e-bayed PoS that couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag because he never learned how to play. And they get away with it because you can't report cross server characters. Stupid cross server dungeon lfg system. Worst thing to happen to WoW.
I think many of you are missing the whole point, which is a good one.. Have MMO's today turned into a math game..
What's your dps?
What's your defence rating?
What's your AC?
How much mana?
How much health?
How many HP does that boss have?
numbers , numbers and numbers are everywhere.. I can understand basic numbers and math being used such as armor class or similar.. But now people are into dps , hps and the ever evil "GEAR SCORE". Has math and numbes taken over MMO's? Instead of role playing, people are calculating everything..
Weren't those always part of rpg games? If you take armor stats, mana, dps, defense rating and all that calculation do you still have a rpg game? If you remove all that then I think you have an action game not a rpg.
Yes and No.. when some of us started in RPG gaming, it was done with paper and pencil.. Granted we had to "roll" our character up and give them a bio.. In my case I played with friends with one of us normally taking turns hosting a campain as Dungeon Master.. Because we need something to determine who won or lost a fight, math was used after a roll of the dice to determine the outcome..
Todays date is decades later and here we are blessed with the ability to not have to roll dice, and do our own math.. We have computers.. But in anycase, I got off topic.. sorry.. As a RPG fan, we still played the game and never worried about our numbers so to speak.. that was second thought.. Hell, back in those days we didn't "con" the mob to see if it was win or lose fight.. You only found out after you got into one.. LOL So basically from what used to be a genre that was 80% rpg.. is now 80% math.. Where is the rpg?
I have to assume from your post here that you played Dungeons and Dragons or a game that was pretty similar. So did I and I have to tell you that MANY of the people I played with did the "Math" all the time. Paper based gaming makes it even easier to do in my opinion. I think the problem you are having with this subject is that you, like me, and the friends you mentioned are more into the rpg experience. That does not mean that others don't want the UBER TOON!!!!!!! Doesn't always help them though, because I KNOW what my characters are capable of and how to use them. I often end up lasting much longer than the Uber Toons.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I think many of you are missing the whole point, which is a good one.. Have MMO's today turned into a math game..
What's your dps?
What's your defence rating?
What's your AC?
How much mana?
How much health?
How many HP does that boss have?
numbers , numbers and numbers are everywhere.. I can understand basic numbers and math being used such as armor class or similar.. But now people are into dps , hps and the ever evil "GEAR SCORE". Has math and numbes taken over MMO's? Instead of role playing, people are calculating everything..
Weren't those always part of rpg games? If you take armor stats, mana, dps, defense rating and all that calculation do you still have a rpg game? If you remove all that then I think you have an action game not a rpg.
It's why 'RPG' grew to be defined by its progression system and not its storytelling. The players love the numbers. Even if the numbers were hidden, players would still invest the time to figure out what they are.... or even create their own.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I like the way that guy thinks, but I also think he doesn't really know what he's talking about.
The truth about why MMO's aren't made like action games has to do with a lot of things, and it has less to do with latency than you might think. In all truth of the matter, there is one really simple thing you could do that theoretically might solve every issue there could be. But I'll get to that.
For one, MMO's are a persistent online realm. You aren't just dealing with at most 40 dudes in a static arena with absolutely no AI running in the background. You have really large zones and maps with lots of these bots running in certain locations that respawn over and over again. You have any number of people in that same area doing anything and everything they are allowed to do in the game. You have AI scripts changing from one thing to another because they are supposed to react to all kinds of things going on around them: other AI mobs that they might be factionally alligned or disalligned with, other players that may or may not be friendly, combat strategies which include lots and lots of math algorythms, aggro zones, travel paths, and most importantly - YOU and all the crap you are doing.
In combat, there's a million things going on too. But, this is one of those things that can seriously be improved upon. I'll elaborate.
For some reason, MMO's have more or less become nothing more than a glorified Magic: The Gathering game. I mean, seriously... that's all combat is. Magic: The Gathering and a chatbox. Combat in an MMO is basically you clicking on any skill you may have on your hotbar, which in turn results in any number of possible outcomes, depending on any number of circumstances. You can basically think of your Hotbar as your Card Deck, and each skill on that Hotbar is an individual card. Then you have 4 people in your group, each of which have their own Card Deck. Then you have the mobs you all are fighting, and they have an assortment of Card Decks, not to mention their scripted AI strategies. Then you have everyone else in the zone doing all that crap against every other mob in the zone doing their crap. And all of it is different: different actions yield different results, at different times yields different latencies. And everything is being spammed like crazy. Oh yeah, and there is also all this To Hit% vs Defense and Armor Rating and health and Magic stuff going on... all kinds of stuff....
Let me put this as clearly and as plainly as I can:
CUT THAT $HIT THE F@CK OUT!
Have you ever wondered why MMO's suddenly get stupid lag crazy in the heat of battle, but when you're just running around, you really have no issues at all? There's your reason.
You see, despite what people want to believe - MMO's can't be more action packed, just because it's an MMO and technology can't handle it. No. Our computers and internet latency is pretty much already capable of doing these things. Now, I'm not talking about Call of Duty type of stuff, but it can certainly pull off a lot more than it's currently doing, by just getting rid of all that $hit!
Some of it has to stay, yes, but the bulk of it - ditch it. It's old theory design that had its day. It's time we reallocate our system's resources that were in charge of handling all of that, and put them on task of something else. I mean seriously - think about this for one second.
The reason why we get lag is because everytime we click one of those 50 billion skills on our hotbar, we are sending a lot of information to the server. A LOT. And the server has to process that, and at the same time, send some crap back to us. Not to mention animation and specular effects like magic trails and glowy stuff (otherwise known as Light Shows.) Then, we click a completely different button that does an entirely different list of stuff than the previous button. Which in turn, wastes our computer's and (more importantly) the server's ability to use cache - which is important for performing the same task over and over again. MMO's almost always completely bypass the need to use this function, because nothing ever stays the same. There isn't some short list of "things to do" (like a set of rules and series of universal tasks) that everyone generally falls under. Everything is different... which isn't always good lol. By using cache, we free up space for RAM (more than oyu think), which in turn can be used to process other, more interesting things, and will always help with internet stuff.
"But - if you get rid of all the Skills, the game will be shallow and boring." Wrong. Your brain (and by extension you) correlates fun and immersion and engagement by clicking buttons. It has nothing to do with the results. The more involved you are with the buttons - the more involved you are with the game. So it's not really anything boring or dumbed down to assign those same buttons to other functions. For instance: reloading a weapon instead of casting a fireball; digging in for cover instead of spamming your spam attack that does little damage but is inexpensive on your magic, so you can afford to spam it; hitting the squat/prone button to better your aim and give you a smaller hitbox (by the very nature of the fact), instead of clicking on the button that changes your battle stance which changes every single one of your attributes, and thereby effects every single algorythm in the encounter, which basically deletes your ability use cache all over again.
And besides that... is it really that big of a deal to not have Magic: The Gathering invading your MMO? I didn't like it when it was a card game; or when it was called Pokemon, or Yu-Gi-Oh, or whatever other card game there is that basically works the same way by strategically changing the names of all the attributes! If I didn't like it then - why would I want it in my video game now? You know what's worse than Magic: The Gathering? Magic: The Gathering.... the video game. In fact, the rules for that game existed because you can't do stuff in a card game that you can do in a video game. Ditch that $hit!
The difference here is you are making much more efficient use of your computer and the server, all the while retaining fun. And better still - you're playing something different than what you've been playing the past 10 years. Instead of a million different processes going on - you have effectively cut that down to maybe 100,000 process. So now, you can afford to do some more interesting things. Maybe not phsyics... but at the very least, quality lighting and animation, or maybe world interaction, or something really awesome... like... you know... some better AI stuff going on that doesn't revolve around a threat gauge. That is a major deal.
So... yadda, yadda. I could go on, but this is long enough I think. It's a pretty good base to start off with, anyway...
WRyan - So what game are you designing btw? I wouldn't mind checking it out some time. Seriously, post the name here so I can take a look, might be fun.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
WRyan - So what game are you designing btw? I wouldn't mind checking it out some time. Seriously, post the name here so I can take a look, might be fun.
lol I'm curious too. Only thing I can think of is either tera, or Blade&Soul. With Blade&Soul have a very minimized ui compared to any other MMO eith only a dozen actual keys to press on the keyboard.
WRyan - So what game are you designing btw? I wouldn't mind checking it out some time. Seriously, post the name here so I can take a look, might be fun.
Well, I said at the beginning "theoretically", but not because I don't know it would work, but because it hasn't been made yet. I'm just a guy who doesn't like bull$hit, and that's what MMO's are currently full of.
I'm not designing a game (well, technically I am... but it's like my hobby thing that I am doing on the side, but still keeping in mind all the stuff I hate about MMO's while I design it), but I know enough about them to know that the reason no one is trying this stuff is because WoW is making a crap load of money, and it doesn't do this stuff. And to make an MMO, you need money, which means you need investors, and they want guaranteed results, and no one has the balls to say "Yeah, it's never been done before - but I am absolutely positive that it will work." Lying every now and again is a good thing, kids. Without them, you can't take chances. And if you don't take chances, then you don't get new results.
And I also know enough about them to know that the reason why WoW doesn't do this stuff, is because it was designed to do everything that had already been done before it, only better. I mean, look. I don't like WoW, because of obvious reasons. But I understand that it is a good game, based on the design strategies of 10 years ago. No game is going to beat WoW out by making the same thing.... WoW has done it the best it can be done. It was created to do just that. And I respect it for that reason. So, not only is no game going to be able to beat it on a technical field, even if they match it, it's not going to be as good.... because people will suddenly feel like, "Hey... I've already played this! And I understand immediately how to play this and win, because it's just like Magic: The Gathering too!"
And I also know a little bit about how computers work. I'm not super genius at it, but I know enough to know that everything I just wrote above would work.
Now, you have to understand... what I described above is like... just a little bit about one aspect of the MMO. There's a lot more to it. You would have to make a few minor adjustments in other areas - but the point is to have an even trade in another area. You might have slightly fewer mobs hanging around to kill in one patch of space, but you could have a more expansive map with lots more interesting areas to explore - or visa-versa. You might see your dude reload his gun a lot... but it sure looks damn nice at 60 FPS while 20 dudes are on screen and real AI running in the background. This may not be Call of Duty... but at least it isn't WAR.
These sorts of things will effectively change everything about the MMO. No more Trinity (even though it works and could still be used), the point is you have another choice - the Non-Trinity. No more Tank-Mages or Alpha Classes. No more class balance issues because one class has one card in their deck that completely obliterates every other card in everyone else's deck. How do you expect to effectively balance that $hit anyway? No more bull$hit that we are all sick to death of, even though TOR and GW2 ( both of which basically go against everything I'm talking about... sort of) still look "kind of" rad.
I think that game would be entirely different from building an rpg character. Loading weapons and taking cover is more like a FPS or Third person shooter. Those games require you to do that. I am not saying that that is not exciting or that a mesh of the two types of games are not fun but players of different games are interested in different things. We have different genres and we also have overlapping games. It could be fun but it may not appeal to people who enjoy creating and designing the toon from stats and skills. Those are different categories of fun.
There is no right or wrong way to play. You are wrong to say that the person who enjoys skills is wrong to say a game without that is no fun because for that person their interest lies in a different direction. We are talking about fundamentally different interests and likes and not that they cannot meld may be in a game like Blade and Soul could cater to both but just that all these types of gameplay cater to a varying genre of players. Neither of them are right or wrong in their choice of gameplay.
To a large extent games being made less complex to enable people who do not want to be bothered with reading or checking things are what has lead us down the garden path of dumbed down games. Not necessarily a bad thing but generally considered by many the gradual decline of the MMORPG genre. Again having copied a cookie cutter build is not an Einstein moment but to many who spend time experimenting with builds these are the high points of the game.
For some an introduction of action elements in their RPG game is a pollution of their game and they resist it even if they might enjoy an occasional run on Xbox Live of Borderlands they want their genre separate. Yes that is why people resent it when others continuously complain about how a game focusses too much on skills and numbers because the main reason they are playing that game is for that very focus.
We are all so fixed in our idea of what is fun for us we forget that others may not like what we consider the cat's pyjamas. Of course for the life of me I cannot see the interest in certain games but there are so many games simply because we all have different tastes.
in my opinion MMOs are sposed to be more like pencil and paper RPGs, not like action games for a console.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Now instead of having numbers, you'd have to take into account physics?
You'd need to think, how far back do I have to be to get up to ramming spped in my truck to make it through a 10 foot wall of zombies, how hard do I need to swing my bat to cleanly take his head off his shoulders, and the like.
I know as the player, these things might seem trivial because they don't really concern us. We just press the W key harder or click the mouse button faster. But to a developer this may just be harder to simulate efficiently and realistically.
I think that game would be entirely different from building an rpg character. Loading weapons and taking cover is more like a FPS or Third person shooter. Those games require you to do that. I am not saying that that is not exciting or that a mesh of the two types of games are not fun but players of different games are interested in different things. We have different genres and we also have overlapping games. It could be fun but it may not appeal to people who enjoy creating and designing the toon from stats and skills. Those are different categories of fun.
There is no right or wrong way to play. You are wrong to say that the person who enjoys skills is wrong to say a game without that is no fun because for that person their interest lies in a different direction. We are talking about fundamentally different interests and likes and not they cannot meld may be in a game like Blade and Soul could cater to both but just that all these types of gameplay cater to a varying genre of players. Neither of them are right or wrong in their choice of gameplay.
To a large extent games being made less complex to enable people who do not want to be bothered with reading or checking things are what has lead us down the garden path of dumbed down games. Not necessarily a bad thing but generally considered by many the gradual decline of the MMORPG genre. Again having copied a cookie cutter build is not an Einstein moment but to many who spend time epxerimenting with builds these are the high points of the game.
We are all so fixed in our idea of what is fun for us we forget that others may not like what we consider the cat's pyjamas. Of course for the life of me I cannot see the interest in certain games but there are so many games simply because we all have different tastes.
I respect your opinion on this, and I'm not arguing with you about it. But I mean, it doesn't have to be some modern game with guns. It can still be a fantasy thing with swords and sorcery. I mean, it's not important that you change lore-genres.... it's just important that you change the way whatever it is you do, into something that isn't what you've already done in previous games.
You can still have that card deck design if you want it, but that means you still need to make room for new things so that the game doesn't feel like a rehash of the last game. How do you do this? I'll give you another alternative than the one I wrote about in my first post...
SLOW THE F@CK DOWN!
When did "faster' suddenly become "better" and "more immersive"? Did anyone even play Metal Gear Solid 4? Have we learned nothing as a community based on a common outlet of entertainment - video games? You can play that game as fast or as slow as you want, and either way... it's intense, glorious gameplay. Yes... I am aware that it isn't an MMO. But the only difference between Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid 4 Online, is the fact that in one, you are online, and in the other.... you are not. You can tell, because their names imply as much. The point is - they are both games that function the same way.
By slowing the game down, you automatically give yourself freedom to do things you never knew you were entitlted to. If you slow the pace of combat down, you are effectively slowthing the rate of stuff being spammed to the server. So, again... you're effectively doing the same thing I just spoke about. Now, suddenly, your computer and the server both have some leg room.
But, because it's slower... that means you need more buttons to press, so that your brain remembers that you're still enjoying the game. Guess what? Suddenly, instead of a GUI change, we're into control scheme changes, and how we use the controller (i.e. mouse and keyboard.) So, now, instead of pressing just one button on the keyboard (1,2,3,etc) we now have to press a combination of keys. "Maybe while holding the left movement button and holding down the LMB for 2 seconds, I can charge this attack and it will shoot the fireball. Maybe by press 3 which selects my fire domain spells, and then holding space to turn on my concentration stance, I can press and hold the LMB to summon a fire-torrent in my desired location and keep it there, so long as I have enough mana, and I don't move, and I concentrate the torrent with my mouse over a certain AoE!"
There - same genre... different allocation of resources - different results - different game play - new experience - awesome game!
in my opinion MMOs are sposed to be more like pencil and paper RPGs, not like action games for a console.
Wrong...
MMO's are supposed to be like video games. The fact that they are not, has a lot to do with why 90% of them suck, and why the other 10% are only populated by people who are either: die-hard fans of the lore, can stomach one particular game enough to play it even though they are really just hoping that next big thing they've been waiting on comes out soon and doesn't suck, or are tricked into believing their MMO of choice is actually a good game, even though it's Magic:The Gathering - Slot Machine Edition. And we all know what slot machines are..... addictive!
NOTE::
I exclude EVE Online from any and all statistics. EVE Online is actually a superb game that is doing something incredibly different than any other game available, and I commend them to it. And the reason why it isn't bigger than it is..... is because it is the most hardcore game you will ever experience in your life, and everyone who knows anything about it, is aware of this fact. Which is precisely why I (and probably you too) don't play it lol...
RPG is by definition "A Role Playing Game", two thirds of which (the RP part) is story telling and portraying a character in said story by controlling his/her actions/reactions to any number of plot twists and circumstances that take place in the story.
The last third (the G part) is the game part, which has a lot of rules to help define your character and what they are and are not capable of doing in the story. Every part of the RPG is a guideline to what any character is allowed to do in the STORY that the GM has created.
Without going into a history lesson - things got way off track into what we have now are MMO-Stat Based Level Grind Games with combat mechanics that play like Magic: The Gathering - the card game.
I am not sure whether you realise this but your example is not related to a game that involves group play in a MMORPG setting. Although these days so many solo the main reason why MMORPG do not expect you to aim or follow your mob while targetting them is because in a group setting we as players are suppose to be paying attention to what others are doing.
We are suppose to check what the situation is around us and take actions to help our team mates. Example a wizard in Everquest let's go back in time. So they will wait for the tank to run up and get aggro and while waiting they might root a melee mob out of the way so that it does not get in the way of AOE damage while checking to see how the healer and enchanter is doing. Then they might start dpsing but their eye is focussed on the overall situation and how many adds might come in and if the enchanter might need help ccing some of them and trying to get some mobs off the healer which the tank cannot get at. If the situation gets bad to evac out of the dungeon. So yes in such a situation the game designers felt that actually expecting the wizard to also manually aim their spells were too much. So yes they locked to a target and could cast on it while watching what is going on around them.
I am not saying this is the only way to play but certain design is made so because of the requirements that might be overly burdensome on some players if you expected them to do things like in an FPS.
I will give you another example try the Red Mage in FFXI. Now they have a ridiculous spell called Refresh that is on such a short timer you will almost be immediately casting it again on the first target because it would be expiring and on top of that they are required to debuff the mobs that come in. With all that is going on even required to spot heal. Imagine asking them to manually change ammunition or take cover behind a rock.
I am not sure whether you realise this but your example is not related to a game that involves group play in a MMORPG setting. Although these days so many solo the main reason why MMORPG do not expect you to aim or follow your mob while targetting them is because in a group setting we as players are suppose to be paying attention to what others are doing.
We are suppose to check what the situation is around us and take actions to help our team mates. Example a wizard in Everquest let's go back in time. So they will wait for the tank to run up and get aggro and while waiting they might root a melee mob out of the way so that it does not get in the way of AOE damage while checking to see how the healer and enchanter is doing. Then they might start dpsing but their eye is focussed on the overall situation and how many adds might come in and if the enchanter might need help ccing some of them and trying to get some mobs off the healer which the tank cannot get at. If the situation gets bad to evac out of the dungeon. So yes in such a situation the game designers felt that actually expecting the wizard to also manually aim their spells were to much. So yes they locked to a target and could cast on it while watching what is going on around them.
I am not saying this is the only way to play but certain design is made so because of the requirements that might be overly burdensome on some players if you expected them to do things like in an FPS.
Yes... I know how it works. It's called the Trinity. I mentioned it. I also mentioned that while it is effective and it works and it will always have a place in MMO's - it doesn't have to be the only option, which most people, presumably including yourself, believe it to be.
What I was writing about was basically explaining how stuff like that doesn't have to exist, and how to make a game work without it.
But, I'm not going to reiterate anything else I've written here. You either understand, or you don't. Obviously - and I mean no offense by this - you do not understand.
Still, I'd like to remind everyone that the purpose of this thread was to discuss ways to make MMO's different. Not to argue why they should stay the same.
Lastly, I understand that some people don't like to play FPS games or can't play them. Obviously, the kind of game isn't for you - just like the MMO's that have been produced for the past 10 years... aren't for me. Why is it so bad for me to dream about a game that is good for me? You do it all the time, and you have hundreds available for you to play. I just want one... and for them to make it well. if you don't like it - then it was obviously not a game made for you. Why is that so hard to understand?
WRyan - I am sorry, but what you are talking about sounds like it would have to be boring to be played IF you even know what you are talking about. My own personal theory is you don't. First off, the inherent lag of playing over the internet will ALWAYS cause problems and with people demanding as much detail as possible it will only get worse. You theory might work if everyone played on an UBER computer in the room right next door to the server, but not when you are few thousand miles away like I am. Fact is it takes time to transmit data and when you have to do it with several people on a team, it also takes co-ordination on the servers part. I wish you luck with your game but something now tells me I'll never see it for sale.
Oh and think on this a bit. If there was this "Oh so better way of doing things" why wouldn't someone have done it by now? I mean, making money is what most of us are about in the business world and there is so MANY Indie companies out there willing to try to do something new and innovative. Your theories sound good in a rant, but they just don't add up.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I do not believe it is the only option I just feel that such a game is different and it is an overlap of genres which can be interesting but that people who do not enjoy that will not be interested in. You seem to think that I am opposing that because it involves removing the holy trinity .That is not it at all. I happen to think that a game like that might work if it was interesting enough .That is the caveat would it be interesting enough for those of us who are interested in skills and preparation and build up of our toons.
I do understand what you are saying and I do not take offense that you thought I do not but forum you know no way sometimes to be very coherent.
Why I explained the logistics of the holy trinity was to make you understand why the games were designed the way they were. They were not meant to be a justification of why things should remain the way they are. I actually played Assassin's Creed and enjoyed it so I can play action games to an extent but the reason I could not play Half Life is because I get FPS headaches and not because I cannot play them . Do not make assumptions about me although I am almost a grandmother I still like those types of games. My sons tutors me and helps me assassinate the really hard targets.
I am also not trying to piss on your cheerios .I perfectly understand your dreams and would like to see the game you described simply because I might play it too if it is fun
I do not believe it is the only option I just feel that such a game is different and it is an overlap of genres which can be interesting but that people who do not enjoy that will not be interested in. You seem to think that I am opposing that because it involves removing the holy trinity .That is not it at all. I happen to think that a game like that might work if it was interesting enough .That is the caveat would it be interesting enough for those of us who are interested in skills and preparation and build up of our toons.
Well said. The growing up of my toon IS important to me. I am a story type player, but I do like to play with the skills as well, it rounds out the story and makes it more realistic to me. Kind of like in old D&D how if you wanted your character to be able to swim, he had to be proficient in the swimming skill. If I took it my character grew up around a lake or something, it got worked into his story. If I didn't, that was worked in too. The skills help round out the overall story for me and make the game more immersive.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Comments
This man speaks the true and is the main reason. Play Planetside and engage in a 200+ man battle. You'll see how you have to lead ahead your shot to hit someone because of latency. Or when You lag for a second then everything hits you at once and you die. Or you rubberband for a bit then die because everyone else sees you as standing still.
I will agree that the net is getting better all the time, but you still get tha latency regardless versus none on a console like mario cart because you aren't playing over the net. And yes Console games with internet play have latency too.
Now you I can discuss this with. At least you are talking common sense here. The only problem is as far back as I can remember games have ALL been about the Min/Max thing IF you wanted too because of the rise of complexity of games. Hey the original Street Fighter was fun, and had no "Math" to it, but for how long? A month or two? Most every game has risen WAY beyond that now though and for the better I think. I do not cosider myself a Hardcore Min/Max'er, more of a casual player in that department, but that does not mean I will pass up an opportunity to make my character better. That would be foolish. I just won't go way out of my way to do so. For me the story behind a game AND the social interaction is what is so fun about an MMO. For other people the fun is making the best character that can possibly be made. Nothing wrong with either style of play and a LOT more fun than Street Fighter ever thought of being.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Yes and No.. when some of us started in RPG gaming, it was done with paper and pencil.. Granted we had to "roll" our character up and give them a bio.. In my case I played with friends with one of us normally taking turns hosting a campain as Dungeon Master.. Because we need something to determine who won or lost a fight, math was used after a roll of the dice to determine the outcome..
Todays date is decades later and here we are blessed with the ability to not have to roll dice, and do our own math.. We have computers.. But in anycase, I got off topic.. sorry.. As a RPG fan, we still played the game and never worried about our numbers so to speak.. that was second thought.. Hell, back in those days we didn't "con" the mob to see if it was win or lose fight.. You only found out after you got into one.. LOL So basically from what used to be a genre that was 80% rpg.. is now 80% math.. Where is the rpg?
Agree. There are mmorpg and mmo action games and the difference is the same as rpgs and action games. Only because these may have a mmo in front doesn't make em the same and doesn't target the same players. What happened here is that a lot of players are getting into mmorpgs but they never enjoyed the rpg part. They just want a mmo action game. I want a rpg so all that math it's actually why I play these games.
Actually the only game with an unhealthy obsession with figures is WoW. Not every MMORPG is like that. We do not chase people off with a broom because their DPS is not a certain level. I played in other MMORPGs that never did that.We played with friends and never even questioned their builds. Not every game is like that. You are just making generalisations based on one game.
I find that the standard impatient idiot players and elitist use those benchmarks most. Actual knowledgable players can tell how good you are in the first 5 minutes of playing with you. Or they can simply look at your gear and tell without the math.
Either way as most of those sample metrics are Warcraft generated, they really doesn't do a whole lot of good when you find yourself grouped with an epic geared e-bayed PoS that couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag because he never learned how to play. And they get away with it because you can't report cross server characters. Stupid cross server dungeon lfg system. Worst thing to happen to WoW.
I have to assume from your post here that you played Dungeons and Dragons or a game that was pretty similar. So did I and I have to tell you that MANY of the people I played with did the "Math" all the time. Paper based gaming makes it even easier to do in my opinion. I think the problem you are having with this subject is that you, like me, and the friends you mentioned are more into the rpg experience. That does not mean that others don't want the UBER TOON!!!!!!! Doesn't always help them though, because I KNOW what my characters are capable of and how to use them. I often end up lasting much longer than the Uber Toons.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
It's why 'RPG' grew to be defined by its progression system and not its storytelling. The players love the numbers. Even if the numbers were hidden, players would still invest the time to figure out what they are.... or even create their own.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I like the way that guy thinks, but I also think he doesn't really know what he's talking about.
The truth about why MMO's aren't made like action games has to do with a lot of things, and it has less to do with latency than you might think. In all truth of the matter, there is one really simple thing you could do that theoretically might solve every issue there could be. But I'll get to that.
For one, MMO's are a persistent online realm. You aren't just dealing with at most 40 dudes in a static arena with absolutely no AI running in the background. You have really large zones and maps with lots of these bots running in certain locations that respawn over and over again. You have any number of people in that same area doing anything and everything they are allowed to do in the game. You have AI scripts changing from one thing to another because they are supposed to react to all kinds of things going on around them: other AI mobs that they might be factionally alligned or disalligned with, other players that may or may not be friendly, combat strategies which include lots and lots of math algorythms, aggro zones, travel paths, and most importantly - YOU and all the crap you are doing.
In combat, there's a million things going on too. But, this is one of those things that can seriously be improved upon. I'll elaborate.
For some reason, MMO's have more or less become nothing more than a glorified Magic: The Gathering game. I mean, seriously... that's all combat is. Magic: The Gathering and a chatbox. Combat in an MMO is basically you clicking on any skill you may have on your hotbar, which in turn results in any number of possible outcomes, depending on any number of circumstances. You can basically think of your Hotbar as your Card Deck, and each skill on that Hotbar is an individual card. Then you have 4 people in your group, each of which have their own Card Deck. Then you have the mobs you all are fighting, and they have an assortment of Card Decks, not to mention their scripted AI strategies. Then you have everyone else in the zone doing all that crap against every other mob in the zone doing their crap. And all of it is different: different actions yield different results, at different times yields different latencies. And everything is being spammed like crazy. Oh yeah, and there is also all this To Hit% vs Defense and Armor Rating and health and Magic stuff going on... all kinds of stuff....
Let me put this as clearly and as plainly as I can:
CUT THAT $HIT THE F@CK OUT!
Have you ever wondered why MMO's suddenly get stupid lag crazy in the heat of battle, but when you're just running around, you really have no issues at all? There's your reason.
You see, despite what people want to believe - MMO's can't be more action packed, just because it's an MMO and technology can't handle it. No. Our computers and internet latency is pretty much already capable of doing these things. Now, I'm not talking about Call of Duty type of stuff, but it can certainly pull off a lot more than it's currently doing, by just getting rid of all that $hit!
Some of it has to stay, yes, but the bulk of it - ditch it. It's old theory design that had its day. It's time we reallocate our system's resources that were in charge of handling all of that, and put them on task of something else. I mean seriously - think about this for one second.
The reason why we get lag is because everytime we click one of those 50 billion skills on our hotbar, we are sending a lot of information to the server. A LOT. And the server has to process that, and at the same time, send some crap back to us. Not to mention animation and specular effects like magic trails and glowy stuff (otherwise known as Light Shows.) Then, we click a completely different button that does an entirely different list of stuff than the previous button. Which in turn, wastes our computer's and (more importantly) the server's ability to use cache - which is important for performing the same task over and over again. MMO's almost always completely bypass the need to use this function, because nothing ever stays the same. There isn't some short list of "things to do" (like a set of rules and series of universal tasks) that everyone generally falls under. Everything is different... which isn't always good lol. By using cache, we free up space for RAM (more than oyu think), which in turn can be used to process other, more interesting things, and will always help with internet stuff.
"But - if you get rid of all the Skills, the game will be shallow and boring." Wrong. Your brain (and by extension you) correlates fun and immersion and engagement by clicking buttons. It has nothing to do with the results. The more involved you are with the buttons - the more involved you are with the game. So it's not really anything boring or dumbed down to assign those same buttons to other functions. For instance: reloading a weapon instead of casting a fireball; digging in for cover instead of spamming your spam attack that does little damage but is inexpensive on your magic, so you can afford to spam it; hitting the squat/prone button to better your aim and give you a smaller hitbox (by the very nature of the fact), instead of clicking on the button that changes your battle stance which changes every single one of your attributes, and thereby effects every single algorythm in the encounter, which basically deletes your ability use cache all over again.
And besides that... is it really that big of a deal to not have Magic: The Gathering invading your MMO? I didn't like it when it was a card game; or when it was called Pokemon, or Yu-Gi-Oh, or whatever other card game there is that basically works the same way by strategically changing the names of all the attributes! If I didn't like it then - why would I want it in my video game now? You know what's worse than Magic: The Gathering? Magic: The Gathering.... the video game. In fact, the rules for that game existed because you can't do stuff in a card game that you can do in a video game. Ditch that $hit!
The difference here is you are making much more efficient use of your computer and the server, all the while retaining fun. And better still - you're playing something different than what you've been playing the past 10 years. Instead of a million different processes going on - you have effectively cut that down to maybe 100,000 process. So now, you can afford to do some more interesting things. Maybe not phsyics... but at the very least, quality lighting and animation, or maybe world interaction, or something really awesome... like... you know... some better AI stuff going on that doesn't revolve around a threat gauge. That is a major deal.
So... yadda, yadda. I could go on, but this is long enough I think. It's a pretty good base to start off with, anyway...
WRyan - So what game are you designing btw? I wouldn't mind checking it out some time. Seriously, post the name here so I can take a look, might be fun.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
lol I'm curious too. Only thing I can think of is either tera, or Blade&Soul. With Blade&Soul have a very minimized ui compared to any other MMO eith only a dozen actual keys to press on the keyboard.
Well, I said at the beginning "theoretically", but not because I don't know it would work, but because it hasn't been made yet. I'm just a guy who doesn't like bull$hit, and that's what MMO's are currently full of.
I'm not designing a game (well, technically I am... but it's like my hobby thing that I am doing on the side, but still keeping in mind all the stuff I hate about MMO's while I design it), but I know enough about them to know that the reason no one is trying this stuff is because WoW is making a crap load of money, and it doesn't do this stuff. And to make an MMO, you need money, which means you need investors, and they want guaranteed results, and no one has the balls to say "Yeah, it's never been done before - but I am absolutely positive that it will work." Lying every now and again is a good thing, kids. Without them, you can't take chances. And if you don't take chances, then you don't get new results.
And I also know enough about them to know that the reason why WoW doesn't do this stuff, is because it was designed to do everything that had already been done before it, only better. I mean, look. I don't like WoW, because of obvious reasons. But I understand that it is a good game, based on the design strategies of 10 years ago. No game is going to beat WoW out by making the same thing.... WoW has done it the best it can be done. It was created to do just that. And I respect it for that reason. So, not only is no game going to be able to beat it on a technical field, even if they match it, it's not going to be as good.... because people will suddenly feel like, "Hey... I've already played this! And I understand immediately how to play this and win, because it's just like Magic: The Gathering too!"
And I also know a little bit about how computers work. I'm not super genius at it, but I know enough to know that everything I just wrote above would work.
Now, you have to understand... what I described above is like... just a little bit about one aspect of the MMO. There's a lot more to it. You would have to make a few minor adjustments in other areas - but the point is to have an even trade in another area. You might have slightly fewer mobs hanging around to kill in one patch of space, but you could have a more expansive map with lots more interesting areas to explore - or visa-versa. You might see your dude reload his gun a lot... but it sure looks damn nice at 60 FPS while 20 dudes are on screen and real AI running in the background. This may not be Call of Duty... but at least it isn't WAR.
These sorts of things will effectively change everything about the MMO. No more Trinity (even though it works and could still be used), the point is you have another choice - the Non-Trinity. No more Tank-Mages or Alpha Classes. No more class balance issues because one class has one card in their deck that completely obliterates every other card in everyone else's deck. How do you expect to effectively balance that $hit anyway? No more bull$hit that we are all sick to death of, even though TOR and GW2 ( both of which basically go against everything I'm talking about... sort of) still look "kind of" rad.
I think that game would be entirely different from building an rpg character. Loading weapons and taking cover is more like a FPS or Third person shooter. Those games require you to do that. I am not saying that that is not exciting or that a mesh of the two types of games are not fun but players of different games are interested in different things. We have different genres and we also have overlapping games. It could be fun but it may not appeal to people who enjoy creating and designing the toon from stats and skills. Those are different categories of fun.
There is no right or wrong way to play. You are wrong to say that the person who enjoys skills is wrong to say a game without that is no fun because for that person their interest lies in a different direction. We are talking about fundamentally different interests and likes and not that they cannot meld may be in a game like Blade and Soul could cater to both but just that all these types of gameplay cater to a varying genre of players. Neither of them are right or wrong in their choice of gameplay.
To a large extent games being made less complex to enable people who do not want to be bothered with reading or checking things are what has lead us down the garden path of dumbed down games. Not necessarily a bad thing but generally considered by many the gradual decline of the MMORPG genre. Again having copied a cookie cutter build is not an Einstein moment but to many who spend time experimenting with builds these are the high points of the game.
For some an introduction of action elements in their RPG game is a pollution of their game and they resist it even if they might enjoy an occasional run on Xbox Live of Borderlands they want their genre separate. Yes that is why people resent it when others continuously complain about how a game focusses too much on skills and numbers because the main reason they are playing that game is for that very focus.
We are all so fixed in our idea of what is fun for us we forget that others may not like what we consider the cat's pyjamas. Of course for the life of me I cannot see the interest in certain games but there are so many games simply because we all have different tastes.
in my opinion MMOs are sposed to be more like pencil and paper RPGs, not like action games for a console.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Now instead of having numbers, you'd have to take into account physics?
You'd need to think, how far back do I have to be to get up to ramming spped in my truck to make it through a 10 foot wall of zombies, how hard do I need to swing my bat to cleanly take his head off his shoulders, and the like.
I know as the player, these things might seem trivial because they don't really concern us. We just press the W key harder or click the mouse button faster. But to a developer this may just be harder to simulate efficiently and realistically.
Just my 2 cents
I respect your opinion on this, and I'm not arguing with you about it. But I mean, it doesn't have to be some modern game with guns. It can still be a fantasy thing with swords and sorcery. I mean, it's not important that you change lore-genres.... it's just important that you change the way whatever it is you do, into something that isn't what you've already done in previous games.
You can still have that card deck design if you want it, but that means you still need to make room for new things so that the game doesn't feel like a rehash of the last game. How do you do this? I'll give you another alternative than the one I wrote about in my first post...
SLOW THE F@CK DOWN!
When did "faster' suddenly become "better" and "more immersive"? Did anyone even play Metal Gear Solid 4? Have we learned nothing as a community based on a common outlet of entertainment - video games? You can play that game as fast or as slow as you want, and either way... it's intense, glorious gameplay. Yes... I am aware that it isn't an MMO. But the only difference between Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid 4 Online, is the fact that in one, you are online, and in the other.... you are not. You can tell, because their names imply as much. The point is - they are both games that function the same way.
By slowing the game down, you automatically give yourself freedom to do things you never knew you were entitlted to. If you slow the pace of combat down, you are effectively slowthing the rate of stuff being spammed to the server. So, again... you're effectively doing the same thing I just spoke about. Now, suddenly, your computer and the server both have some leg room.
But, because it's slower... that means you need more buttons to press, so that your brain remembers that you're still enjoying the game. Guess what? Suddenly, instead of a GUI change, we're into control scheme changes, and how we use the controller (i.e. mouse and keyboard.) So, now, instead of pressing just one button on the keyboard (1,2,3,etc) we now have to press a combination of keys. "Maybe while holding the left movement button and holding down the LMB for 2 seconds, I can charge this attack and it will shoot the fireball. Maybe by press 3 which selects my fire domain spells, and then holding space to turn on my concentration stance, I can press and hold the LMB to summon a fire-torrent in my desired location and keep it there, so long as I have enough mana, and I don't move, and I concentrate the torrent with my mouse over a certain AoE!"
There - same genre... different allocation of resources - different results - different game play - new experience - awesome game!
I hate how developers are dumbing down mmorpgs! Pretty soon they will actually be like this.
The more math, numbers, skills, builds, abilities, and counter-abilities the better.
Why is the intelligence of your generations going down? or is it laziness is going up? I think it's both.
Guild Wars 2!
Wrong...
MMO's are supposed to be like video games. The fact that they are not, has a lot to do with why 90% of them suck, and why the other 10% are only populated by people who are either: die-hard fans of the lore, can stomach one particular game enough to play it even though they are really just hoping that next big thing they've been waiting on comes out soon and doesn't suck, or are tricked into believing their MMO of choice is actually a good game, even though it's Magic:The Gathering - Slot Machine Edition. And we all know what slot machines are..... addictive!
NOTE::
I exclude EVE Online from any and all statistics. EVE Online is actually a superb game that is doing something incredibly different than any other game available, and I commend them to it. And the reason why it isn't bigger than it is..... is because it is the most hardcore game you will ever experience in your life, and everyone who knows anything about it, is aware of this fact. Which is precisely why I (and probably you too) don't play it lol...
RPG is by definition "A Role Playing Game", two thirds of which (the RP part) is story telling and portraying a character in said story by controlling his/her actions/reactions to any number of plot twists and circumstances that take place in the story.
The last third (the G part) is the game part, which has a lot of rules to help define your character and what they are and are not capable of doing in the story. Every part of the RPG is a guideline to what any character is allowed to do in the STORY that the GM has created.
Without going into a history lesson - things got way off track into what we have now are MMO-Stat Based Level Grind Games with combat mechanics that play like Magic: The Gathering - the card game.
I am not sure whether you realise this but your example is not related to a game that involves group play in a MMORPG setting. Although these days so many solo the main reason why MMORPG do not expect you to aim or follow your mob while targetting them is because in a group setting we as players are suppose to be paying attention to what others are doing.
We are suppose to check what the situation is around us and take actions to help our team mates. Example a wizard in Everquest let's go back in time. So they will wait for the tank to run up and get aggro and while waiting they might root a melee mob out of the way so that it does not get in the way of AOE damage while checking to see how the healer and enchanter is doing. Then they might start dpsing but their eye is focussed on the overall situation and how many adds might come in and if the enchanter might need help ccing some of them and trying to get some mobs off the healer which the tank cannot get at. If the situation gets bad to evac out of the dungeon. So yes in such a situation the game designers felt that actually expecting the wizard to also manually aim their spells were too much. So yes they locked to a target and could cast on it while watching what is going on around them.
I am not saying this is the only way to play but certain design is made so because of the requirements that might be overly burdensome on some players if you expected them to do things like in an FPS.
I will give you another example try the Red Mage in FFXI. Now they have a ridiculous spell called Refresh that is on such a short timer you will almost be immediately casting it again on the first target because it would be expiring and on top of that they are required to debuff the mobs that come in. With all that is going on even required to spot heal. Imagine asking them to manually change ammunition or take cover behind a rock.
Yes... I know how it works. It's called the Trinity. I mentioned it. I also mentioned that while it is effective and it works and it will always have a place in MMO's - it doesn't have to be the only option, which most people, presumably including yourself, believe it to be.
What I was writing about was basically explaining how stuff like that doesn't have to exist, and how to make a game work without it.
But, I'm not going to reiterate anything else I've written here. You either understand, or you don't. Obviously - and I mean no offense by this - you do not understand.
Still, I'd like to remind everyone that the purpose of this thread was to discuss ways to make MMO's different. Not to argue why they should stay the same.
Lastly, I understand that some people don't like to play FPS games or can't play them. Obviously, the kind of game isn't for you - just like the MMO's that have been produced for the past 10 years... aren't for me. Why is it so bad for me to dream about a game that is good for me? You do it all the time, and you have hundreds available for you to play. I just want one... and for them to make it well. if you don't like it - then it was obviously not a game made for you. Why is that so hard to understand?
WRyan - I am sorry, but what you are talking about sounds like it would have to be boring to be played IF you even know what you are talking about. My own personal theory is you don't. First off, the inherent lag of playing over the internet will ALWAYS cause problems and with people demanding as much detail as possible it will only get worse. You theory might work if everyone played on an UBER computer in the room right next door to the server, but not when you are few thousand miles away like I am. Fact is it takes time to transmit data and when you have to do it with several people on a team, it also takes co-ordination on the servers part. I wish you luck with your game but something now tells me I'll never see it for sale.
Oh and think on this a bit. If there was this "Oh so better way of doing things" why wouldn't someone have done it by now? I mean, making money is what most of us are about in the business world and there is so MANY Indie companies out there willing to try to do something new and innovative. Your theories sound good in a rant, but they just don't add up.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
This person wants mmol4d basically?
Shadus
I do not believe it is the only option I just feel that such a game is different and it is an overlap of genres which can be interesting but that people who do not enjoy that will not be interested in. You seem to think that I am opposing that because it involves removing the holy trinity .That is not it at all. I happen to think that a game like that might work if it was interesting enough .That is the caveat would it be interesting enough for those of us who are interested in skills and preparation and build up of our toons.
I do understand what you are saying and I do not take offense that you thought I do not but forum you know no way sometimes to be very coherent.
Why I explained the logistics of the holy trinity was to make you understand why the games were designed the way they were. They were not meant to be a justification of why things should remain the way they are. I actually played Assassin's Creed and enjoyed it so I can play action games to an extent but the reason I could not play Half Life is because I get FPS headaches and not because I cannot play them . Do not make assumptions about me although I am almost a grandmother I still like those types of games. My sons tutors me and helps me assassinate the really hard targets.
I am also not trying to piss on your cheerios .I perfectly understand your dreams and would like to see the game you described simply because I might play it too if it is fun
Well said. The growing up of my toon IS important to me. I am a story type player, but I do like to play with the skills as well, it rounds out the story and makes it more realistic to me. Kind of like in old D&D how if you wanted your character to be able to swim, he had to be proficient in the swimming skill. If I took it my character grew up around a lake or something, it got worked into his story. If I didn't, that was worked in too. The skills help round out the overall story for me and make the game more immersive.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
i find it odd that people want to get rid of math in games and replace it with... physics. *shrug*