You see it all the time, game "XXX" has the crappiest gaming community out there. No, some folks say, all gaming communities suck no matter what game you're talking about.
Maybe its just nostalgia, or I'm looking through rose colored glasses, but I don't recall it always being this way folks. My first few MMO's, Lineage 1, DAOC, Lineage 2 and even Shadowbane all had much better communities (from a random encounter perspective) than those of more recent games.
So why is that?: I've read some theories, some of which I heartily agree with. I'll kick it off with a few prime suspects but I'll be interested to hear what others have to say.
1) Lack of forced downtime. The older games used to make us wait to regenerate our health, mana or whatever, it wasn't constant fight, fight, fight that it seems to be in every game today. This was a good thing IMO, it gave us time to chat with our groupmates, guildmates, or even random strangers in global chat. Nowdays it seems everyone is either soloing or even grouping through the (usully quest based) content to the point there's no time for player interaction.
2) Quick travel options - yes, I know they are seen as a benefit, but in their ultimate form, being able to queue for dungeons without ever traveling to them and looking for a group, while ideal for those who want to just get in and get busy, are some of the biggest detriments to building a strong gaming community. Truely a case of the negatives outweighing the positives, at least if the goal is to build a better community.
3) Game mechanics that discourage grouping, specifically quest based mechanics. Most games don't provide enough reward for re-running a quest with someone,(if its even possible) therefore people complete most quests solo. How many times did you try to group up only to be told, "no thanks, I've already completed that one". Say what you will about the old camp grinding games, it rarely happened, people always wanted some competent and friendly folks to join up, help with the kills and to pass the time.
OK, there's 3 off the top of my head, let's hear what others think.
Lineage specially L2 had some of the worst shit talking and jackassery i have ever witnessed in a game, (i loved my time in L2) but the competitive nature of the PvP made for the most hostile shit talking ever. If you have doubts i point you to l2blah and look at the forums it goes back to l2orphus before that site went dead L2 has always brought out the worst in people. Communities are no better back then than they are now.
So basically, your argument is that in order for games to have a good community, they need to be obnoxious and boring to the degree that they drive away most prospective players? Having to spend half your time in a game sitting there waiting rather than actually doing anything isn't fun. If that's the price of a good community, then we don't need a good community.
Really, though, I think the problem is that games designed around killing and looting monsters attract bad communities, because that's the sort of game that attracts the wrong sort of players.
So basically, your argument is that in order for games to have a good community, they need to be obnoxious and boring to the degree that they drive away most prospective players? Having to spend half your time in a game sitting there waiting rather than actually doing anything isn't fun. If that's the price of a good community, then we don't need a good community.
Really, though, I think the problem is that games designed around killing and looting monsters attract bad communities, because that's the sort of game that attracts the wrong sort of players.
No, I think you may have missed some of my posts since the OP where I agree, we cannot go back to game mechanics of the past that would not be acceptable to most players, even most old school players I suspect.
I did ask what Developers could do today thats new and different that could help improve the community and while there were a few suggestions, I didn't see a lot of outstanding ideas that really might change things.
As some suggested, the only solution may be to wrap some subset of the community around ourselves (our guild, close RL friends) and find the fun that we can. There may be no going back to what existed before....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
for me personally I think its how the game pits people against each other, not in pvp terms but in that whenever another player approaches your target you either see them as a kill stealer, or because of their interaction the combat becomes way too easy.
And then with the loot in actual parties it pits the players against each other in "who gets it?" or with the random rolling it makes you feel down right jealous of the other player when they get the loot you wanted.
These things really take allot of the fun out of the equation because after the kill stealers and the loot stealers have had their day, suddenly parties have commities to decide who gets loot, and who gets to fight the boss next.
It becomes the players job to ensure every one gets something, but shouldnt that be in the game already?
Its not that players cant work together but because they feel forced in order to gain the rewards they personally want they have to party and then they eventually become a sour gaming community devout to only personal gain.
Also I think the holy trinity is to blame, sure it allows players to fill the roles they like to some degree, but when a party is forced to take a jerk into their party because he's the only healer it becomes a problem. I want to be able to choose who to party with without having to wait several more hours for a more decent healer. I cant decide to take that ranger or that warrior that I just befriended instead of having to take the jerk whos rolling a healer class, because my party neeeeeeeds a healer. The community would be so much better if we werent forced to take people into the group we dont like, because if that feature was made possible then all the jerks no one enjoys playing with would not progress through the game and all thats left is a good community that can freely form teams together.
for me personally I think its how the game pits people against each other, not in pvp terms but in that whenever another player approaches your target you either see them as a kill stealer, or because of their interaction the combat becomes way too easy.
Also I think the holy trinity is to blame, sure it allows players to fill the roles they like to some degree, but when a party is forced to take a jerk into their party because he's the only healer it becomes a problem. I want to be able to choose who to party with without having to wait several more hours for a more decent healer.
Bingo. But the trinity is just one of the things, the loot system is another issue, not to mention how much the games are based on gear today than earlier.
When I started MMOs with Meridian and Lineage gear had a point but experience were more important than gear. Today XP matter little since people gets to max soon, it is grinding gear that is the entire endgame, and since leveling up is so fast most of the time is spent in the endgame.
Separate loot like in GW already helps a lot.
The games are themselves turning their community rotten with their mechanics. You get nothing for helping out and can gain a lot by being a jerk so many people turn to the dark side.....
for me personally I think its how the game pits people against each other, not in pvp terms but in that whenever another player approaches your target you either see them as a kill stealer, or because of their interaction the combat becomes way too easy.
Also I think the holy trinity is to blame, sure it allows players to fill the roles they like to some degree, but when a party is forced to take a jerk into their party because he's the only healer it becomes a problem. I want to be able to choose who to party with without having to wait several more hours for a more decent healer.
Bingo. But the trinity is just one of the things, the loot system is another issue, not to mention how much the games are based on gear today than earlier.
When I started MMOs with Meridian and Lineage gear had a point but experience were more important than gear. Today XP matter little since people gets to max soon, it is grinding gear that is the entire endgame, and since leveling up is so fast most of the time is spent in the endgame.
Separate loot like in GW already helps a lot.
The games are themselves turning their community rotten with their mechanics. You get nothing for helping out and can gain a lot by being a jerk so many people turn to the dark side.....
I like how you broke my post down lol xD
and I agree entirely, MMO mechanics are becoming too focused on using player interaction for personal benefit, when really for a good community and fun play experience player interaction shouldnt feel forced and should be directed as a means of itself not a means to a personal end; something we wont see with current MMOs.
The more older, smaller, social a game is, the better is the community. Where social is a bit hard to define. P2P tends to be more social than F2P, for example.
for me personally I think its how the game pits people against each other, not in pvp terms but in that whenever another player approaches your target you either see them as a kill stealer, or because of their interaction the combat becomes way too easy.
Also I think the holy trinity is to blame, sure it allows players to fill the roles they like to some degree, but when a party is forced to take a jerk into their party because he's the only healer it becomes a problem. I want to be able to choose who to party with without having to wait several more hours for a more decent healer.
Bingo. But the trinity is just one of the things, the loot system is another issue, not to mention how much the games are based on gear today than earlier.
When I started MMOs with Meridian and Lineage gear had a point but experience were more important than gear. Today XP matter little since people gets to max soon, it is grinding gear that is the entire endgame, and since leveling up is so fast most of the time is spent in the endgame.
Separate loot like in GW already helps a lot.
The games are themselves turning their community rotten with their mechanics. You get nothing for helping out and can gain a lot by being a jerk so many people turn to the dark side.....
I like how you broke my post down lol xD
and I agree entirely, MMO mechanics are becoming too focused on using player interaction for personal benefit, when really for a good community and fun play experience player interaction shouldnt feel forced and should be directed as a means of itself not a means to a personal end; something we wont see with current MMOs.
Both of you are spot on.. Been saying that for years.. Should we blame the community or the devs for the mechanics of the game that spark the fire in the first place? Today's MMO are NOT design to promote and encourage social prosperity, but more of Esport one upsmanship.. I (we) are better then you.. Even real life is getting uglier.. My wife and I do charity all year round and this past week we took part in a childrens christmas event in where thousands was spent to buy new gilfs for needy kids for Xmas.. The only catch was that each parent was given one ticket for FREE to buy ONE new gift with that free ticket.. I was shocked how many young parents shoplifted or tried to get more then one FREE gift..
BTW.. ALL gifts that were not brand spanking new were slightly used in good shop items donated, and nothing more then 3 or 5 bucks at most.. Most items were in the ballpark of 2 dollars each.. These items being clothes or whatnot often found and donated to Goodwill or whomever.. In any case it was still nice to see some children getting things they never would of without these events.. I won't even get into the conduct of parents that bitched and whined about the FREE food handed out that was donated by McDonalds, Chick fil A, and local grocerty stores.. LOL
I was considering starting a new thread with my own analysis of a similar subject, but I suppose this is as good as any place.
I think it goes deeper than game mechanics in some cases.
If a group is encouraged to adhere to a common goal (whether that group size be 5 people or the entire server), they will only necessarily interact with eachother insofar as that goal is addressed.
For example, if you play WoW and join the random "dungeon finder" queue which groups you up with 4 other randomly chosen people, you'll find that most times you will complete the dungeon without anyone uttering a single word. Everyone simply focuses on the collective goal, and that's all they need to do. Any dialogue arising in that group is purely incidental - not necessary for accomplishing the goal. The same is looking to be even more true for the upcoming GW2, where almost every aspect of the game (other than competitive Guild vs Guild pvp perhaps) follows the same dynamic of collective goal setting.
I'm not saying this model is inherently bad; it has it's advantages (and certainly might be preferable to a dog-eat-dog model if you're going for genuine socialization). However, it's not the ideal model either.
What really constitutes a strong community are interpersonal relationships (I mean instances of people exchanging meaningful, honest dialogue).
Now, it's impossible to build any game mechanic that forces this sort of relationship to form, but perhaps there are those that could encourage it. Any scenario where people are encouraged to confront each other (not necessarily in an aggressive or conflicting way) and really meaningfully communicate in order to solve problems would be ideal.
That would be exceedingly tough to design for, and ultimately it's as contingent on the players as the situation (especially in a medium where people are inherently objectified by each other as merely avatars).
Perhaps the old games were theoretically better in this regard because they were so inaccessible and bewildering by design (and lacked online resources to guide players) that you needed to start communicating with others to get anywhere. This is no longer the case with newer games (and I don't think it'd be good for the medium to return to those days) but I think devs might be able to come up with creative new ways to overcome obstacles to relationships in the new generations of games.
In fact I think Kyleran? touched on that by bringing up old world mechanics of "down time", such as mana and health regeneration. At times that mechanic seemed to be a real pain, but seeing how communities are now, I think it's something that should be brought back.. I hate to call it for what it is, but forced socializing, just might be what the doctor ordered.. It's just not gaming online either, but real life interation.. IMO far too many have lost the art of getting to know others.. Is this something devs should tackle, or just sit back and earn a better bottom line.. Cause I think we all know if any game stands up, and polices their community it will hit them square in the pocketbook..
You see it all the time, game "XXX" has the crappiest gaming community out there. No, some folks say, all gaming communities suck no matter what game you're talking about.
Maybe its just nostalgia, or I'm looking through rose colored glasses, but I don't recall it always being this way folks. My first few MMO's, Lineage 1, DAOC, Lineage 2 and even Shadowbane all had much better communities (from a random encounter perspective) than those of more recent games.
So why is that?: I've read some theories, some of which I heartily agree with. I'll kick it off with a few prime suspects but I'll be interested to hear what others have to say.
1) Lack of forced downtime. The older games used to make us wait to regenerate our health, mana or whatever, it wasn't constant fight, fight, fight that it seems to be in every game today. This was a good thing IMO, it gave us time to chat with our groupmates, guildmates, or even random strangers in global chat. Nowdays it seems everyone is either soloing or even grouping through the (usully quest based) content to the point there's no time for player interaction.
2) Quick travel options - yes, I know they are seen as a benefit, but in their ultimate form, being able to queue for dungeons without ever traveling to them and looking for a group, while ideal for those who want to just get in and get busy, are some of the biggest detriments to building a strong gaming community. Truely a case of the negatives outweighing the positives, at least if the goal is to build a better community.
3) Game mechanics that discourage grouping, specifically quest based mechanics. Most games don't provide enough reward for re-running a quest with someone,(if its even possible) therefore people complete most quests solo. How many times did you try to group up only to be told, "no thanks, I've already completed that one". Say what you will about the old camp grinding games, it rarely happened, people always wanted some competent and friendly folks to join up, help with the kills and to pass the time.
OK, there's 3 off the top of my head, let's hear what others think.
Kids these days!
The Internet has changed in the last twenty years. In 1990 it was full of nerds, today everyone is on. And some of those new people are little kids and some are jerks.
In fact I think Kyleran? touched on that by bringing up old world mechanics of "down time", such as mana and health regeneration. At times that mechanic seemed to be a real pain, but seeing how communities are now, I think it's something that should be brought back.. I hate to call it for what it is, but forced socializing, just might be what the doctor ordered.. It's just not gaming online either, but real life interation.. IMO far too many have lost the art of getting to know others.. Is this something devs should tackle, or just sit back and earn a better bottom line.. Cause I think we all know if any game stands up, and polices their community it will hit them square in the pocketbook..
I wasn't arguing on behalf of old school mechanics like forced downtime or forced grouping. In fact, I was pointing out that forcing people to group (or sit in the vicinity of each other during downtime) for some collective goal does nothing in particular for socialization. I think you see where I was going though. I'd prefer we move toward new mechanics that are conducive to interpersonal relationships rather than default to old school mechanics.
I see both communities pretty plentyful, the difference is alot of people (like me) jump from F2P to F2P unless we find one that really catches our attention and stick, but many are friendly and go around talking to or helping people level up. P2P has more of a closed personality where people really only socializing with their groups or guilds most of the time which there are other who don't.
I think its just the individuals and groups that focus on how the community becomes, I still see Ragnarok online pretty full with players of course not as huge as WoW, but newer games like Dragon Saga and Rose online have a growing community where even the admins team up with people because they enjoy there games and dont focus on a single group which to me is a plus.
To have an in game community there has to be opportunities for players to interact, the fewer those opportunities the more other player are just like NPC's with differant coloured names floating above their heads.
As time has gone on we have had less grouping, more instancing, more fast travel, raid dungeons needing less people, fewer raids, fewer roleplaying tools, F2P players who don't bother with a forum and only play a month or two tops, auction houses replacing individual sellers, the ability to solo to top level, a reduction in class differances so every class can do quests, crafting and pvp without needing other classes, a reduction in the need of other crafting professions to pursue your craft.
It just goes on and on and it does not stop here, if you think that think again, it will only get worse as they try to make MMO's games for 'everyone and their mom'. They want every age group, gender, social network types, hardcore, care bears in their game. So our MMO's will become even more indistinguishable from one another, they were once called mush's they are a mush now.
I didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been brought up or not, but I don't think the problems we see in in-game communities is unique to MMO's, or even video game in general.
IMO, the general attitudes of people everywhere have gotten worse over last generation or so. It seems like while I was growing up, the average kid was more respectful of people.
So to answer your question OP: Root cause is society.
I'm not so sure if the communities are more poor but more that gated interaction has started to disappear from games. Also the mmorpg's largest growth isn't really coming from people like those of you out there who ushered in the genre. They are generally a younger crowd who demands different things out of their experience.
I think it may be a bit more appropriate to consider how exactly to find the players who go through these games that exhibit the qualities you seek because I'm willing to bet in any that you would have an interest in you can find those out there who like to game as you do. To me it's difficult to label the community on what I tend to see, which is mostly people chosing to go about their business, whether alone or in a group.
The only mmo I play right now is LOTRO which I honestly think has the best community I've ever encountered in an mmorpg, but honestly the only one I can say has a really bad outward appearance is WOW and I wonder if that too isn't just magnified by the sheer size of that game.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been brought up or not, but I don't think the problems we see in in-game communities is unique to MMO's, or even video game in general.
IMO, the general attitudes of people everywhere have gotten worse over last generation or so. It seems like while I was growing up, the average kid was more respectful of people.
So to answer your question OP: Root cause is society.
Every generations says that yet somehow that one in a historical sense never turns out any worse than the one to complain about them.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been brought up or not, but I don't think the problems we see in in-game communities is unique to MMO's, or even video game in general.
IMO, the general attitudes of people everywhere have gotten worse over last generation or so. It seems like while I was growing up, the average kid was more respectful of people.
So to answer your question OP: Root cause is society.
Every generations says that yet somehow that one in a historical sense never turns out any worse than the one to complain about them.
Not too sure about that. Respect seems to have plumetted in the last 50 years, respect for your elders, respect for your parents, respect for Authority (however this can be a grey area, not all authority is deserving of respect when it abuses its power and position), respect for Women and self respect in general.
Now, not to derail the thread any further, but how often do you see a child swear at their parents, or around their parents. There is a new generation of entitled loudmouth self centred children growing up, and not all of them actually grow up, they remain children through their adult years. There were always those kinds, however it woudl appear that todays generation is fostering many many more of them.
As the Videogame industry is rather young, it would be hard to judge its impact, or societies impact from drawing correlating data from the last 30 years of its existance, but this small test shoudl suffice. When you were younger and in your parents care, what was the worst profanity word that you could say within their earshot that would not provoke an immediate response of some form of rebuke? Then think of the last time you overheard a child say a profanity and think what type of response you would have recieved at that age.
There is both a common perception that every generation the attitude of people is getting worse and there is also a common belief that this is not really happening. Typically it is the older generation who thinks this while the younger generation thinks it is not happening, that alone should tell you something.
Remember that the new generation only sees the situation relative to their own experience, so if things were better or worse back when they were toddlers how would they know? Likewise as you get older you become more cynical and jaded, things will seem worse regardless of what really is happening.
If you look at social history we have had huge changes in everything from personal freedoms to personal reasonability. What you can definitely say is things are not the same now as they were then. Which in turn tells us that the dewy eyed view of the young and/or the crabby eyed view of the old is deceiving us, I leave you to decide which is deceiving us more.
I didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been brought up or not, but I don't think the problems we see in in-game communities is unique to MMO's, or even video game in general.
IMO, the general attitudes of people everywhere have gotten worse over last generation or so. It seems like while I was growing up, the average kid was more respectful of people.
So to answer your question OP: Root cause is society.
Every generations says that yet somehow that one in a historical sense never turns out any worse than the one to complain about them.
I have a little bit more time tonight, so I'll expand on this a bit.
First, I'm 27. I'm actually talking primarily about my generation. In the area I grew up in, I was at the tale end of the group of kids that got spanked by their parents, or recieved punishments harsher than time out. I've I talked back to my mom, I got smacked. And there was nothing anyone would do about it. I deserved it. But By the time my brother, who is 5 years younger than I am, Started school, the system had started teaching children that if you get spanked for anything, that its abuse, and that they should call the cops or whatever. So anytime my brother got introuble, he would threaten to call the cops on my parents.
Ive also yet to meet a familly that uses timeouts and has respectful children. I'm sure there is one out there somewhere, but my experience tells me that is doesn't work.
It seams my generation and younger have been spoon fed this bull**** that they "know better" than their elders. Respect for anyone has almost totaly gone out the window. Foul language is accepted as the norm in school, even if its aginst the rules. There is no real punishment for breaking the rules, or the law for that matter (our Jail is so underfunded that they basically book and release anyone that hasn't commited a class 1 felony)
Society is teaching our young people that it is okay to be an asshat, and in the internet world it is even easier to do. So, I stand by my earlier statment: It is societies fault that MMO comunities suck.
Comments
Lineage specially L2 had some of the worst shit talking and jackassery i have ever witnessed in a game, (i loved my time in L2) but the competitive nature of the PvP made for the most hostile shit talking ever. If you have doubts i point you to l2blah and look at the forums it goes back to l2orphus before that site went dead L2 has always brought out the worst in people. Communities are no better back then than they are now.
So basically, your argument is that in order for games to have a good community, they need to be obnoxious and boring to the degree that they drive away most prospective players? Having to spend half your time in a game sitting there waiting rather than actually doing anything isn't fun. If that's the price of a good community, then we don't need a good community.
Really, though, I think the problem is that games designed around killing and looting monsters attract bad communities, because that's the sort of game that attracts the wrong sort of players.
No, I think you may have missed some of my posts since the OP where I agree, we cannot go back to game mechanics of the past that would not be acceptable to most players, even most old school players I suspect.
I did ask what Developers could do today thats new and different that could help improve the community and while there were a few suggestions, I didn't see a lot of outstanding ideas that really might change things.
As some suggested, the only solution may be to wrap some subset of the community around ourselves (our guild, close RL friends) and find the fun that we can. There may be no going back to what existed before....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I find these discussions of "community" boring and non essential.
We play games with friends - be that on line or in RL - the rest of the dudes are just a background painting.
Who cares if a by passer says "Booh".
In MMO's the circle of friends is called a guild, in RL it is called a club.
If you have a difficulty in finding a good club or a good guild ... then it's not the fault of the community.
It's probably the anti social behaviour of the man behind the complaints.
if your game is broken, your forum becomes littered with rants, and it poisons your game community.
if your game is in good shape, your forum is littered with strats, and it enhances your game community.
for me personally I think its how the game pits people against each other, not in pvp terms but in that whenever another player approaches your target you either see them as a kill stealer, or because of their interaction the combat becomes way too easy.
And then with the loot in actual parties it pits the players against each other in "who gets it?" or with the random rolling it makes you feel down right jealous of the other player when they get the loot you wanted.
These things really take allot of the fun out of the equation because after the kill stealers and the loot stealers have had their day, suddenly parties have commities to decide who gets loot, and who gets to fight the boss next.
It becomes the players job to ensure every one gets something, but shouldnt that be in the game already?
Its not that players cant work together but because they feel forced in order to gain the rewards they personally want they have to party and then they eventually become a sour gaming community devout to only personal gain.
Also I think the holy trinity is to blame, sure it allows players to fill the roles they like to some degree, but when a party is forced to take a jerk into their party because he's the only healer it becomes a problem. I want to be able to choose who to party with without having to wait several more hours for a more decent healer. I cant decide to take that ranger or that warrior that I just befriended instead of having to take the jerk whos rolling a healer class, because my party neeeeeeeds a healer. The community would be so much better if we werent forced to take people into the group we dont like, because if that feature was made possible then all the jerks no one enjoys playing with would not progress through the game and all thats left is a good community that can freely form teams together.
Bingo. But the trinity is just one of the things, the loot system is another issue, not to mention how much the games are based on gear today than earlier.
When I started MMOs with Meridian and Lineage gear had a point but experience were more important than gear. Today XP matter little since people gets to max soon, it is grinding gear that is the entire endgame, and since leveling up is so fast most of the time is spent in the endgame.
Separate loot like in GW already helps a lot.
The games are themselves turning their community rotten with their mechanics. You get nothing for helping out and can gain a lot by being a jerk so many people turn to the dark side.....
I like how you broke my post down lol xD
and I agree entirely, MMO mechanics are becoming too focused on using player interaction for personal benefit, when really for a good community and fun play experience player interaction shouldnt feel forced and should be directed as a means of itself not a means to a personal end; something we wont see with current MMOs.
The more older, smaller, social a game is, the better is the community. Where social is a bit hard to define. P2P tends to be more social than F2P, for example.
Both of you are spot on.. Been saying that for years.. Should we blame the community or the devs for the mechanics of the game that spark the fire in the first place? Today's MMO are NOT design to promote and encourage social prosperity, but more of Esport one upsmanship.. I (we) are better then you.. Even real life is getting uglier.. My wife and I do charity all year round and this past week we took part in a childrens christmas event in where thousands was spent to buy new gilfs for needy kids for Xmas.. The only catch was that each parent was given one ticket for FREE to buy ONE new gift with that free ticket.. I was shocked how many young parents shoplifted or tried to get more then one FREE gift..
BTW.. ALL gifts that were not brand spanking new were slightly used in good shop items donated, and nothing more then 3 or 5 bucks at most.. Most items were in the ballpark of 2 dollars each.. These items being clothes or whatnot often found and donated to Goodwill or whomever.. In any case it was still nice to see some children getting things they never would of without these events.. I won't even get into the conduct of parents that bitched and whined about the FREE food handed out that was donated by McDonalds, Chick fil A, and local grocerty stores.. LOL
Happy Holidays
I was considering starting a new thread with my own analysis of a similar subject, but I suppose this is as good as any place.
I think it goes deeper than game mechanics in some cases.
If a group is encouraged to adhere to a common goal (whether that group size be 5 people or the entire server), they will only necessarily interact with eachother insofar as that goal is addressed.
For example, if you play WoW and join the random "dungeon finder" queue which groups you up with 4 other randomly chosen people, you'll find that most times you will complete the dungeon without anyone uttering a single word. Everyone simply focuses on the collective goal, and that's all they need to do. Any dialogue arising in that group is purely incidental - not necessary for accomplishing the goal. The same is looking to be even more true for the upcoming GW2, where almost every aspect of the game (other than competitive Guild vs Guild pvp perhaps) follows the same dynamic of collective goal setting.
I'm not saying this model is inherently bad; it has it's advantages (and certainly might be preferable to a dog-eat-dog model if you're going for genuine socialization). However, it's not the ideal model either.
What really constitutes a strong community are interpersonal relationships (I mean instances of people exchanging meaningful, honest dialogue).
Now, it's impossible to build any game mechanic that forces this sort of relationship to form, but perhaps there are those that could encourage it. Any scenario where people are encouraged to confront each other (not necessarily in an aggressive or conflicting way) and really meaningfully communicate in order to solve problems would be ideal.
That would be exceedingly tough to design for, and ultimately it's as contingent on the players as the situation (especially in a medium where people are inherently objectified by each other as merely avatars).
Perhaps the old games were theoretically better in this regard because they were so inaccessible and bewildering by design (and lacked online resources to guide players) that you needed to start communicating with others to get anywhere. This is no longer the case with newer games (and I don't think it'd be good for the medium to return to those days) but I think devs might be able to come up with creative new ways to overcome obstacles to relationships in the new generations of games.
Well said twrule..
In fact I think Kyleran? touched on that by bringing up old world mechanics of "down time", such as mana and health regeneration. At times that mechanic seemed to be a real pain, but seeing how communities are now, I think it's something that should be brought back.. I hate to call it for what it is, but forced socializing, just might be what the doctor ordered.. It's just not gaming online either, but real life interation.. IMO far too many have lost the art of getting to know others.. Is this something devs should tackle, or just sit back and earn a better bottom line.. Cause I think we all know if any game stands up, and polices their community it will hit them square in the pocketbook..
Kids these days!
The Internet has changed in the last twenty years. In 1990 it was full of nerds, today everyone is on. And some of those new people are little kids and some are jerks.
Its never going to return to the old days.
I wasn't arguing on behalf of old school mechanics like forced downtime or forced grouping. In fact, I was pointing out that forcing people to group (or sit in the vicinity of each other during downtime) for some collective goal does nothing in particular for socialization. I think you see where I was going though. I'd prefer we move toward new mechanics that are conducive to interpersonal relationships rather than default to old school mechanics.
I see both communities pretty plentyful, the difference is alot of people (like me) jump from F2P to F2P unless we find one that really catches our attention and stick, but many are friendly and go around talking to or helping people level up. P2P has more of a closed personality where people really only socializing with their groups or guilds most of the time which there are other who don't.
I think its just the individuals and groups that focus on how the community becomes, I still see Ragnarok online pretty full with players of course not as huge as WoW, but newer games like Dragon Saga and Rose online have a growing community where even the admins team up with people because they enjoy there games and dont focus on a single group which to me is a plus.
To have an in game community there has to be opportunities for players to interact, the fewer those opportunities the more other player are just like NPC's with differant coloured names floating above their heads.
As time has gone on we have had less grouping, more instancing, more fast travel, raid dungeons needing less people, fewer raids, fewer roleplaying tools, F2P players who don't bother with a forum and only play a month or two tops, auction houses replacing individual sellers, the ability to solo to top level, a reduction in class differances so every class can do quests, crafting and pvp without needing other classes, a reduction in the need of other crafting professions to pursue your craft.
It just goes on and on and it does not stop here, if you think that think again, it will only get worse as they try to make MMO's games for 'everyone and their mom'. They want every age group, gender, social network types, hardcore, care bears in their game. So our MMO's will become even more indistinguishable from one another, they were once called mush's they are a mush now.
I didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been brought up or not, but I don't think the problems we see in in-game communities is unique to MMO's, or even video game in general.
IMO, the general attitudes of people everywhere have gotten worse over last generation or so. It seems like while I was growing up, the average kid was more respectful of people.
So to answer your question OP: Root cause is society.
Tottaly agree....
I'm not so sure if the communities are more poor but more that gated interaction has started to disappear from games. Also the mmorpg's largest growth isn't really coming from people like those of you out there who ushered in the genre. They are generally a younger crowd who demands different things out of their experience.
I think it may be a bit more appropriate to consider how exactly to find the players who go through these games that exhibit the qualities you seek because I'm willing to bet in any that you would have an interest in you can find those out there who like to game as you do. To me it's difficult to label the community on what I tend to see, which is mostly people chosing to go about their business, whether alone or in a group.
The only mmo I play right now is LOTRO which I honestly think has the best community I've ever encountered in an mmorpg, but honestly the only one I can say has a really bad outward appearance is WOW and I wonder if that too isn't just magnified by the sheer size of that game.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Every generations says that yet somehow that one in a historical sense never turns out any worse than the one to complain about them.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Not too sure about that. Respect seems to have plumetted in the last 50 years, respect for your elders, respect for your parents, respect for Authority (however this can be a grey area, not all authority is deserving of respect when it abuses its power and position), respect for Women and self respect in general.
Now, not to derail the thread any further, but how often do you see a child swear at their parents, or around their parents. There is a new generation of entitled loudmouth self centred children growing up, and not all of them actually grow up, they remain children through their adult years. There were always those kinds, however it woudl appear that todays generation is fostering many many more of them.
As the Videogame industry is rather young, it would be hard to judge its impact, or societies impact from drawing correlating data from the last 30 years of its existance, but this small test shoudl suffice. When you were younger and in your parents care, what was the worst profanity word that you could say within their earshot that would not provoke an immediate response of some form of rebuke? Then think of the last time you overheard a child say a profanity and think what type of response you would have recieved at that age.
There is both a common perception that every generation the attitude of people is getting worse and there is also a common belief that this is not really happening. Typically it is the older generation who thinks this while the younger generation thinks it is not happening, that alone should tell you something.
Remember that the new generation only sees the situation relative to their own experience, so if things were better or worse back when they were toddlers how would they know? Likewise as you get older you become more cynical and jaded, things will seem worse regardless of what really is happening.
If you look at social history we have had huge changes in everything from personal freedoms to personal reasonability. What you can definitely say is things are not the same now as they were then. Which in turn tells us that the dewy eyed view of the young and/or the crabby eyed view of the old is deceiving us, I leave you to decide which is deceiving us more.
I have a little bit more time tonight, so I'll expand on this a bit.
First, I'm 27. I'm actually talking primarily about my generation. In the area I grew up in, I was at the tale end of the group of kids that got spanked by their parents, or recieved punishments harsher than time out. I've I talked back to my mom, I got smacked. And there was nothing anyone would do about it. I deserved it. But By the time my brother, who is 5 years younger than I am, Started school, the system had started teaching children that if you get spanked for anything, that its abuse, and that they should call the cops or whatever. So anytime my brother got introuble, he would threaten to call the cops on my parents.
Ive also yet to meet a familly that uses timeouts and has respectful children. I'm sure there is one out there somewhere, but my experience tells me that is doesn't work.
It seams my generation and younger have been spoon fed this bull**** that they "know better" than their elders. Respect for anyone has almost totaly gone out the window. Foul language is accepted as the norm in school, even if its aginst the rules. There is no real punishment for breaking the rules, or the law for that matter (our Jail is so underfunded that they basically book and release anyone that hasn't commited a class 1 felony)
Society is teaching our young people that it is okay to be an asshat, and in the internet world it is even easier to do. So, I stand by my earlier statment: It is societies fault that MMO comunities suck.