Oh and think on this a bit. If there was this "Oh so better way of doing things" why wouldn't someone have done it by now? I mean, making money is what most of us are about in the business world and there is so MANY Indie companies out there willing to try to do something new and innovative. Your theories sound good in a rant, but they just don't add up.
Not to be rude, but boy do you sound like a nay sayer.
Please understand the buisness before you shoot down someones idea on the basis that nobody is doing it.
#3 Doing something different increases the risk and the statistical probability that it could flop
#4 Therefore publishers tend to stick with games that have already been tried and whose actual numbers can be easily quantified by simple statistical calculations based off demographic projections
#5 to make a polished mmo you need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
#6 Indie companies have revenue as their only hurdle, the less revenue, the longer development process, the longer development process the more likely that technology surpasses their initial development and the more probability that the demographic they are targeting will desire more polished games
So to imply that it is not a good idea because no one is doing it, is really the most ignorant thng I think I have heard in my 33 years, well maybe not as ignorant as Bush's "mission accomplished" speech, but hey no one will ever beat that.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
WRyan - I am sorry, but what you are talking about sounds like it would have to be boring to be played IF you even know what you are talking about. My own personal theory is you don't. First off, the inherent lag of playing over the internet will ALWAYS cause problems and with people demanding as much detail as possible it will only get worse. You theory might work if everyone played on an UBER computer in the room right next door to the server, but not when you a few thousand miles away like I am. Fact is it takes time to transmit data and when you have to do it with several people on a team, it also takes co-ordination on the servers part. I wish you luck with you game but something now tells me I'll never see it for sale.
Oh and think on this a bit. If there was this "Oh so better way of doing things" why wouldn't someone have done it by now? I mean, making money is what most of us are about in the business world and there is so MANY Indie companies out there willing to try to do something new and innovative. Your theories sound good in a rant, but they just don't add up.
You obviously didn't read anything I said, because I literally explained everything you just asked me.
And if you are thousands of miles away from the nearest server of a game that you want to play - then it is obvious that the game was never localized in your area, and the people who produced the game didn't consider your place of residence as a priority zone to provide service for their game. I live in an area where the closest server is about 300 miles away. Latency stuff works pretty good for me, just like it would for most anyone else in the United States mainland, and/or most of Western Europe and/or Asia, which by most, I mean on average.
So if the average internet connection for a game (which means the bulk of their audience) is running their game pretty well, then they are happy, because their game is perofrming properly and as expected.
Your problem with internet connection with an MMO has nothing to do with how it is designed. It has to do with where you live, and whether or not the game producers wanted to localize it for your area.
And the truth is, with everything I've mentioned - you would be no worse off either way.... because the game is not localized for your area on the world map. It would run exactly the same for you either way. And besides that, why would a game developer develop the game with people who live outside the selected servicable areas in mind? If they were going to do that - then they would just provide service for your area. Which means there would be a big room filled with servers just for you and everyone within a 300 mile radius of where you live to play on.
This isn't even about game design. It's about not coding certain things we have already played, and instead, coding things we haven't played before. You're using the exact same amount of resources in both cases. It would literally be no different.
The reason no one has done it by now..... and I feel like I'm repeating myself (because I am) is because of WoW's success and investors wanting a sure thing. And since WoW worked - investors want WoW. It realliy is just that simple why no one is doing this stuff. It's a gamble, not because it wouldn't work. It's a gamble because what is currently top dog, is completely different.
It's easy to gurantee success if you lie to the investor. That's how the first MMO was made possible.... they lied to the investor. They said "This will work." when in truth... they had no idea it would work. And... it did work. And it will work again.
I would have no problem lying to an investor. I would do it in a heartbeat. But only because a) I wouldn't be lying - I KNOW this will work, and b) they lie to me all the time, so it must be okay.
As far as the whole "more detail" thing. Detail and world art quality isn't even a huge deal until you start getting into things like shaders. And guess what the number one cause of system FPS lag in an MMO is? Shaders. And shaders is either one of two things a) shadows, which can be avoided with some clever art designs and good use of static decals, and b) glowy stuff and light shows (i.e. the magic explosions every time your ability shoots off.)
By reducing those alone, you have freed up about 200-400 MB of RAM on your GPU. Which can be used for other things.... like more world detail, or just simply faster fram rates by allowing the GPU to draw everything faster.
Do instead of damage calculations, you want physics calculations?
You guys realize physics calculations as normally harder than the math that's in MMOs right now? They involve 4D+ arrays lol
Actually, I never said anything about physics being put into a game. In fact, I said the direct opposite. I specifically stated that doing all of this wouldn't allow for physics, but would allow for other things. I'm not going to repeat the whole thing...
And yes, I do realize physics are more taxing and heavier (mathematically) than just math. I am completely aware of this. In fact, the reason why we have all of these math equations floating around, is to emulate physics. Emulate - not simulate. If we are emulating something, it means we are trying to produce similar results by using a work around method. Simulating them would just be using them.
And besides that, the dude the OP was referencing to was the guy who suggested that stuff. I am the guy who clearly stated that I like the way he thinks, but that he also doesn't know what he is talking about.
All the Math and stuff is still there in everything I have proposed and stated. There just isn't as much of it floating around at one time. It's dispersed evenly and in a controlled environment. You still have stats - you still have To Hit, Defense, all that stuff.... it's still there. You never ditch that (because I said some things have to stay.)
All you're ditching is the stuff that is what I refer to Magic: The Gathering - the endless list of abilities every class has, and does not need.
Really, it's not the fact that they exist. It's the fact that we have way too much control over how much $hit is being sent to the server, and that it's too much information being spammed. THAT is the issue, in a nutshell.
All I'm really suggesting is to put a cap on that - funnel it so that it isn't a million different things at one time, and if nothing else, get rid of it as it really is truely unnecessary.
But, because I am a good sport, and I know people like that stuff, I have come up with a solution that would allow you to retain those sorts of things, and even provide another part of the MMO (that everyone just looooooves) with a very large and substantial boost..... Loot.
Instead of giving your character all of these abilities that do a million different things.... apply that crap to the weapons and armor. Normal gear does nothing, decent gear gets 1 effect put on it, quality gear gets 2, and epic gear gets 3. Wham! A million different possibilities for equpment. Not only that... but that means loot whores everywhere can rejoice, and crafters are good too, because there's more than enough of this $hit to go around. Not only that, but no more "clones and end-game" running around. You are almost guranteed to have different equipment than everyone else.
"But... how does it work?"
Glad you asked - If you have a weapon with some ability like (Summon Rain of Fire) on it... everytime you land a Critical Hit - that badboy Summons a giant f@cking storm cell over your point of origin and starts to rain sheets of fire down over anything and everything. Same spell that we're all used to - but it's controlled application means it's not hogging all the bandwidth because you aren't spamming it. It only works on a Critical Hit - and really, except for Rogues... how often do you land one of those?
It's also on armor too though. So maybe you have this thing... I dunno... called a Critical Defense. Because... you know... in RPG land - everytime an attack is made, there are 2 dice rolls made - one for attack, and one for defense. And when you make a perfect defence roll... you get a Critical Defense - which is basically like.... ummmm.... oh yeah, an emulated Counter-Attack! Which means that everytime you land one of those Critical Defense thingies... your Ultra Megabrand Full Plate of Horrifying Doom will instantly give you a Buff that allows you do this maneuver called.... Faceshearing Scissor Attack or maybe Bless (AoE) or Haste (AoE) or Heal (AoE) or all of them (because it's epic).... because that armor has those abilities built into it. Kind of gives you a reason to think about what you're wearing... doesn't it? You know... as sort of not just what everyone else is wearing because it was the best thing you could possibly loot in that Raid dungeon. And that's awesome... because... you know.... it kind of gives you the freedom to be the character you want to be... just a little... maybe?
There are fundamentally two philosophies in games. What your character does is based on YOUR skill, or what your character does is based on HIS skill, like his strength or dex or int or block value. Both have their audience, but I personally would never play a MMO where my characters powers are based on my own skill. If I were skilled I wouldn't play computer games!
All this jumping and dodging and whatnot just pissed me off. Maybe when you are hyper hyper and 16 years old and a console kid, ok. But then you have Super Mario-whatever. MMos should be about the character development, not fidgeting around. The more stats and numbers to flesh out the details of my char the better, thank you very much.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
And get rid of reading there is lots of reading in MMOs much to much,and theres a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities, we need to give the players little more than a button mashing whack a mole experience.
As someone said in this forum, somewhere:
To be able to run one's face over the keyboard and still viably play
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Originally posted by Benthon If you got rid of math in MMO's, MMO's wouldn't exist.
You literally can't get rid of Math in a game with combat. You can, however, get rid of the visible damage, healing and buff numbers. I'm not sure people would want to play a game where they couldn't confirm that spec X does more damage or where spell X is better than spell Y for the mana spent, etc.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I don't really think numbers should be changed much in combat at all. I don't think they're a problem. I think the problem lies with numbers on items. The majority of players don't want to have to break out a calculator and a special web mod to determine if the weapon that hits slightly faster or the weapon that hits slightly harder will produce more dps. They just want to upgrade to the better item and be done with it. Or if the purpose is to give them an option: they want a clearly-defined set of pros and cons between the two. Weeding through obscure rules like diminishing returns, soft caps, hard caps, chance procs and other needlessly dense algebra is what the game should be concerned with, not the player.
But hiding any other numbers associated with damaging attacks, character stats, or primary item roles like health bonus, is not a good idea. A huge appeal for a lot of players is simply trying to make a lot of those numbers go up one or two points (or one or two hundred, what have you). They're easily ignored by someone less interested in them, unless said person is being deliberately obtuse simply to make a dramatic soapbox excuse of an article.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Haha, wow, people COMPLETELY missed the point of my OP.
Many obviously read the title of the thread and nothing else. Some read it and missed the main point completely.
I am not saying to get rid of all math in mmo's, nor am I trying to remove depth and complexity of mmo's. The title is refering to the fact that mmo's tell me something has happened based on stats and numbers, when that thing clearly has not happened in the game (the only way the game proves to me that the thing has happened is through displaying numbers, not actually having it happen) nor does the thing the game tells me has happened make sense.
This may be confusing and vague but I will elaborate later because I don't feel like writing some long thing now.
An auction house that doesn't run on math... now that would be interesting.
Seeing as how I can go to a random sever onto WoW and dominate an entire section of the AH within a week without any real difficulty (every server always has at least 1 section that's not being dominated)....
I don't think most people would understand what you are trying to say, most people are math stupid lol
Whoever wrote that article has NOT played an MMO in a while. I mean, swing a bat and it hits whatever is in the path? That is axactly what sword weilders do in ANY mmo. It seems to me that he is expecting EVERYONE to have this UBER gaming computer to play on so every MMO can look absolutely amazing. Sorry, but that just is not the case. He actually hurts his case when he admits to being a console player. The problem (and plus) of consoles is they are ALL the same in a particular generation so the game designers can get very good at designer for that particular console. Computers do not have that problem/plus. Instead we have a variety of computers, with a variety of abilities that designers have to factor in when they design their games. MMOs have to deal with THAT and yet, look at the graphics on most serious MMOs. They are amazing.
All in all, I just can't take this guy seriously. A devoted console player seldom likes MMOs and at the same time a serious MMO player normally gets annoyed at the limited and static nature of consoles.
I know it's a day old, but I just can't get past this. The post wasn't about amazing graphics, it was about the number crunching skills required vs. control skills. Sword wielders don't do what he's saying. They get stock animations and they swing at a hit box, connecting even though they're 10 feet away from the actual boss. That's the probem he has. The enemies and players do nothing but stand still, and number generators determine if they get hit and for how much. They get to press keys to activate skills, which definitely helps alleviate the static feeling ,but even then, numbers decide if those hits land or flop.
As for his being a console player...that has nothing to do with his issue except that he has experience with games that function a certain way. Game designers sometimes make games for a single system, but often they make games for most of the consoles AND for the computer as well. So they have all the problems of a computer plus more. And deisgners of computer games don't care about the variety of computer abilites. They aim for midrange computers and call it a day. If a computer isn't able to run the game, it doesn't. But if it can't, it's usually outdated or low end, which aren't the sort of targets anyone shoots for. It's one thing to miss the point of the post, it's another to be woefully misinformed.
I can't beleive you think you should be taken seriously. A devoted console player seldom likes MMOs? Really? Wow...if you're going to be a jerk to someone, at least know something about what you're tlaking about.
As for later posts about the troubles of bad internet connections that lead to rubberbanding and wanky aiming, thats a great, thoughtful answer. Kudos to knowledge!!!
mmo is NOT a genre on its own. Its just a term that indicates if a game, no matter the genre, is massively multiplayer online. Thats it. Nothing more, nothing less. RTS,FPS,Action,Fighting,Racing,RPG: These are genres that can have an mmo element added to them.
Saying you have a problem with mmos because they dont play like fps like saying you have a problem with 3D movies because they arent all comedies. It misses the point entirely. They are not terms that one would use as a compare and contrast. One is an element of another, its not one or the other.
Originally posted by Gintoh The above poster sums up my thought exactly and the point of my OP.
I rarely feel that I am in a WORLD in an mmo, I merely feel that I am activating nodes or levers that tells me that something has happened. For instance. My guy hacks atsomeone in WoW with his sword. Some numbers pop up telling me how much damage I am doing even though I am clearly not even close to hitting him, then every ones in a while I get the word "dodge" that pops up, telling me that my enemy has dodged the blow. No, he did not dodge it, he didn't move, the game is just telling me that he did even though he didn't. Stats effect things that don't make sense. Why can't I pick up a sword because my "skill" is to low? Sure, maybe I would be less effective with it, but I should be able to use it even if I suck with it. If I have a low rifle skill, don't make it so that somehow I magically do less damage with it, don't make it so that I see the word "miss" when I have clearly hit him.
Portray my low skill in a realistic way. I will be extremely innacurate with the gun, there will be tons of recoil. This is more immersive, more realistic. If a child shoots someone in the head or a Navy Seal shoots someone in the head, both hits will do the same damage, the child won't do less damage because he has a lower skill.
Portray it in a realistic manner, if I picked up a SAW machine gun, a hit from it would do the same amount of damage as anyone else who used it, but I wouldn't be able to use it even remotely effectively, the recoil alone would practically knock me off my feet. Don't tell me I just dodged a blow, make it so that I can learn a talent where I can time when someone is about to hit me, and I can press a button to parry out of the way. Look at Oblivion, I had to time when people were about to hit me, then block to deflect the blow, there was no fake dice roll telling me I had dodged or blocked the blow when I had not.
I think this mmo "fakery" is a result of Dev lazyness. As a kid in school you learned to "show don't tell" in you're writing, the same concept could be applied to mmo's/
ugh. you are describing an rpg. doesnt matter if its an mmor or not. what you are looking for is an action game or fps made into an mmo. in other words; stop wishing that an mmorpg was an mmofps. they are 2 different genres for a reason.
Because number *is* fun. Otherwise, you won't have EJ devoting large amount of time to mathematically model WOW. Power comes from optimization and math is the way to fun gameplay.
WRyan - I am sorry, but what you are talking about sounds like it would have to be boring to be played IF you even know what you are talking about. My own personal theory is you don't. First off, the inherent lag of playing over the internet will ALWAYS cause problems and with people demanding as much detail as possible it will only get worse. You theory might work if everyone played on an UBER computer in the room right next door to the server, but not when you a few thousand miles away like I am. Fact is it takes time to transmit data and when you have to do it with several people on a team, it also takes co-ordination on the servers part. I wish you luck with you game but something now tells me I'll never see it for sale.
Oh and think on this a bit. If there was this "Oh so better way of doing things" why wouldn't someone have done it by now? I mean, making money is what most of us are about in the business world and there is so MANY Indie companies out there willing to try to do something new and innovative. Your theories sound good in a rant, but they just don't add up.
You obviously didn't read anything I said, because I literally explained everything you just asked me.
And if you are thousands of miles away from the nearest server of a game that you want to play - then it is obvious that the game was never localized in your area, and the people who produced the game didn't consider your place of residence as a priority zone to provide service for their game. I live in an area where the closest server is about 300 miles away. Latency stuff works pretty good for me, just like it would for most anyone else in the United States mainland, and/or most of Western Europe and/or Asia, which by most, I mean on average.
So if the average internet connection for a game (which means the bulk of their audience) is running their game pretty well, then they are happy, because their game is perofrming properly and as expected.
Your problem with internet connection with an MMO has nothing to do with how it is designed. It has to do with where you live, and whether or not the game producers wanted to localize it for your area.
And the truth is, with everything I've mentioned - you would be no worse off either way.... because the game is not localized for your area on the world map. It would run exactly the same for you either way. And besides that, why would a game developer develop the game with people who live outside the selected servicable areas in mind? If they were going to do that - then they would just provide service for your area. Which means there would be a big room filled with servers just for you and everyone within a 300 mile radius of where you live to play on.
This isn't even about game design. It's about not coding certain things we have already played, and instead, coding things we haven't played before. You're using the exact same amount of resources in both cases. It would literally be no different.
The reason no one has done it by now..... and I feel like I'm repeating myself (because I am) is because of WoW's success and investors wanting a sure thing. And since WoW worked - investors want WoW. It realliy is just that simple why no one is doing this stuff. It's a gamble, not because it wouldn't work. It's a gamble because what is currently top dog, is completely different.
It's easy to gurantee success if you lie to the investor. That's how the first MMO was made possible.... they lied to the investor. They said "This will work." when in truth... they had no idea it would work. And... it did work. And it will work again.
I would have no problem lying to an investor. I would do it in a heartbeat. But only because a) I wouldn't be lying - I KNOW this will work, and b) they lie to me all the time, so it must be okay.
As far as the whole "more detail" thing. Detail and world art quality isn't even a huge deal until you start getting into things like shaders. And guess what the number one cause of system FPS lag in an MMO is? Shaders. And shaders is either one of two things a) shadows, which can be avoided with some clever art designs and good use of static decals, and b) glowy stuff and light shows (i.e. the magic explosions every time your ability shoots off.)
By reducing those alone, you have freed up about 200-400 MB of RAM on your GPU. Which can be used for other things.... like more world detail, or just simply faster fram rates by allowing the GPU to draw everything faster.
Look, if I am so wrong . . . PROVE it. You seem to know exactly HOW to do it so make the game you are talking about. Send me a message with it's name and IF you managed to make a fun and playable game, I'll buy it and play it. If not you won't get any money from me. That easy. I myself don't think what you are describing is possible so I have no faith in you, but you are more than welcome to prove me wrong. IF you can.
Until then, I will continue to play my MMO's, and in fact basically EVERY game out there, that use the math and have fun doing so.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
To me, the article above describes a game like (possibly) crackdown turned massively multiplayer. Nobody has done something like that. They should though.
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WRyan - I am sorry, but what you are talking about sounds like it would have to be boring to be played IF you even know what you are talking about. My own personal theory is you don't. First off, the inherent lag of playing over the internet will ALWAYS cause problems and with people demanding as much detail as possible it will only get worse. You theory might work if everyone played on an UBER computer in the room right next door to the server, but not when you a few thousand miles away like I am. Fact is it takes time to transmit data and when you have to do it with several people on a team, it also takes co-ordination on the servers part. I wish you luck with you game but something now tells me I'll never see it for sale.
Oh and think on this a bit. If there was this "Oh so better way of doing things" why wouldn't someone have done it by now? I mean, making money is what most of us are about in the business world and there is so MANY Indie companies out there willing to try to do something new and innovative. Your theories sound good in a rant, but they just don't add up.
You obviously didn't read anything I said, because I literally explained everything you just asked me.
And if you are thousands of miles away from the nearest server of a game that you want to play - then it is obvious that the game was never localized in your area, and the people who produced the game didn't consider your place of residence as a priority zone to provide service for their game. I live in an area where the closest server is about 300 miles away. Latency stuff works pretty good for me, just like it would for most anyone else in the United States mainland, and/or most of Western Europe and/or Asia, which by most, I mean on average.
So if the average internet connection for a game (which means the bulk of their audience) is running their game pretty well, then they are happy, because their game is perofrming properly and as expected.
Your problem with internet connection with an MMO has nothing to do with how it is designed. It has to do with where you live, and whether or not the game producers wanted to localize it for your area.
And the truth is, with everything I've mentioned - you would be no worse off either way.... because the game is not localized for your area on the world map. It would run exactly the same for you either way. And besides that, why would a game developer develop the game with people who live outside the selected servicable areas in mind? If they were going to do that - then they would just provide service for your area. Which means there would be a big room filled with servers just for you and everyone within a 300 mile radius of where you live to play on.
This isn't even about game design. It's about not coding certain things we have already played, and instead, coding things we haven't played before. You're using the exact same amount of resources in both cases. It would literally be no different.
The reason no one has done it by now..... and I feel like I'm repeating myself (because I am) is because of WoW's success and investors wanting a sure thing. And since WoW worked - investors want WoW. It realliy is just that simple why no one is doing this stuff. It's a gamble, not because it wouldn't work. It's a gamble because what is currently top dog, is completely different.
It's easy to gurantee success if you lie to the investor. That's how the first MMO was made possible.... they lied to the investor. They said "This will work." when in truth... they had no idea it would work. And... it did work. And it will work again.
I would have no problem lying to an investor. I would do it in a heartbeat. But only because a) I wouldn't be lying - I KNOW this will work, and b) they lie to me all the time, so it must be okay.
As far as the whole "more detail" thing. Detail and world art quality isn't even a huge deal until you start getting into things like shaders. And guess what the number one cause of system FPS lag in an MMO is? Shaders. And shaders is either one of two things a) shadows, which can be avoided with some clever art designs and good use of static decals, and b) glowy stuff and light shows (i.e. the magic explosions every time your ability shoots off.)
By reducing those alone, you have freed up about 200-400 MB of RAM on your GPU. Which can be used for other things.... like more world detail, or just simply faster fram rates by allowing the GPU to draw everything faster.
Look, if I am so wrong . . . PROVE it. You seem to know exactly HOW to do it so make the game you are talking about. Send me a message with it's name and IF you managed to make a fun and playable game. I'll buy it and play it. If not you won't get any money from me. That easy. I myself don't think what you are describing is possible so I have no faith in you, but you are more than welcome to prove me wrong. IF you can.
Until then, I will continue to play my MMO's, and in fact basically EVERY game out there, that use the math and have fun doing so.
Dude..... we're done talking. You have read nothing I have written, or worse you just don't understand.
Also - If I were going to make this game somehow.... proving you wrong would be the least of my worries. I'm not 12. I don't get mad at people on the interent anymore.
What exactly do you mean by math? It seems like you want more realistic, responsive combat, but that math and numbers work very well with that too, in fact it's probably going to require a lot more complex calculations.
For me only fun thing about RPG's is exactly the numbers, the optimization of characters and equipment. It's a core part of RPG's. You are most likely looking for some different genre, MMO, MMOFPS, social game, I don't what all genres there are.
Comments
Not to be rude, but boy do you sound like a nay sayer.
Please understand the buisness before you shoot down someones idea on the basis that nobody is doing it.
#1 publishers are a group of investors
#2 investors use their money to make more money
#3 Doing something different increases the risk and the statistical probability that it could flop
#4 Therefore publishers tend to stick with games that have already been tried and whose actual numbers can be easily quantified by simple statistical calculations based off demographic projections
#5 to make a polished mmo you need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
#6 Indie companies have revenue as their only hurdle, the less revenue, the longer development process, the longer development process the more likely that technology surpasses their initial development and the more probability that the demographic they are targeting will desire more polished games
So to imply that it is not a good idea because no one is doing it, is really the most ignorant thng I think I have heard in my 33 years, well maybe not as ignorant as Bush's "mission accomplished" speech, but hey no one will ever beat that.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
You obviously didn't read anything I said, because I literally explained everything you just asked me.
And if you are thousands of miles away from the nearest server of a game that you want to play - then it is obvious that the game was never localized in your area, and the people who produced the game didn't consider your place of residence as a priority zone to provide service for their game. I live in an area where the closest server is about 300 miles away. Latency stuff works pretty good for me, just like it would for most anyone else in the United States mainland, and/or most of Western Europe and/or Asia, which by most, I mean on average.
So if the average internet connection for a game (which means the bulk of their audience) is running their game pretty well, then they are happy, because their game is perofrming properly and as expected.
Your problem with internet connection with an MMO has nothing to do with how it is designed. It has to do with where you live, and whether or not the game producers wanted to localize it for your area.
And the truth is, with everything I've mentioned - you would be no worse off either way.... because the game is not localized for your area on the world map. It would run exactly the same for you either way. And besides that, why would a game developer develop the game with people who live outside the selected servicable areas in mind? If they were going to do that - then they would just provide service for your area. Which means there would be a big room filled with servers just for you and everyone within a 300 mile radius of where you live to play on.
This isn't even about game design. It's about not coding certain things we have already played, and instead, coding things we haven't played before. You're using the exact same amount of resources in both cases. It would literally be no different.
The reason no one has done it by now..... and I feel like I'm repeating myself (because I am) is because of WoW's success and investors wanting a sure thing. And since WoW worked - investors want WoW. It realliy is just that simple why no one is doing this stuff. It's a gamble, not because it wouldn't work. It's a gamble because what is currently top dog, is completely different.
It's easy to gurantee success if you lie to the investor. That's how the first MMO was made possible.... they lied to the investor. They said "This will work." when in truth... they had no idea it would work. And... it did work. And it will work again.
I would have no problem lying to an investor. I would do it in a heartbeat. But only because a) I wouldn't be lying - I KNOW this will work, and b) they lie to me all the time, so it must be okay.
As far as the whole "more detail" thing. Detail and world art quality isn't even a huge deal until you start getting into things like shaders. And guess what the number one cause of system FPS lag in an MMO is? Shaders. And shaders is either one of two things a) shadows, which can be avoided with some clever art designs and good use of static decals, and b) glowy stuff and light shows (i.e. the magic explosions every time your ability shoots off.)
By reducing those alone, you have freed up about 200-400 MB of RAM on your GPU. Which can be used for other things.... like more world detail, or just simply faster fram rates by allowing the GPU to draw everything faster.
lol
Do instead of damage calculations, you want physics calculations?
You guys realize physics calculations as normally harder than the math that's in MMOs right now? They involve 4D+ arrays lol
The reading part is a problem as well!
Actually, I never said anything about physics being put into a game. In fact, I said the direct opposite. I specifically stated that doing all of this wouldn't allow for physics, but would allow for other things. I'm not going to repeat the whole thing...
And yes, I do realize physics are more taxing and heavier (mathematically) than just math. I am completely aware of this. In fact, the reason why we have all of these math equations floating around, is to emulate physics. Emulate - not simulate. If we are emulating something, it means we are trying to produce similar results by using a work around method. Simulating them would just be using them.
And besides that, the dude the OP was referencing to was the guy who suggested that stuff. I am the guy who clearly stated that I like the way he thinks, but that he also doesn't know what he is talking about.
All the Math and stuff is still there in everything I have proposed and stated. There just isn't as much of it floating around at one time. It's dispersed evenly and in a controlled environment. You still have stats - you still have To Hit, Defense, all that stuff.... it's still there. You never ditch that (because I said some things have to stay.)
All you're ditching is the stuff that is what I refer to Magic: The Gathering - the endless list of abilities every class has, and does not need.
Really, it's not the fact that they exist. It's the fact that we have way too much control over how much $hit is being sent to the server, and that it's too much information being spammed. THAT is the issue, in a nutshell.
All I'm really suggesting is to put a cap on that - funnel it so that it isn't a million different things at one time, and if nothing else, get rid of it as it really is truely unnecessary.
But, because I am a good sport, and I know people like that stuff, I have come up with a solution that would allow you to retain those sorts of things, and even provide another part of the MMO (that everyone just looooooves) with a very large and substantial boost..... Loot.
Instead of giving your character all of these abilities that do a million different things.... apply that crap to the weapons and armor. Normal gear does nothing, decent gear gets 1 effect put on it, quality gear gets 2, and epic gear gets 3. Wham! A million different possibilities for equpment. Not only that... but that means loot whores everywhere can rejoice, and crafters are good too, because there's more than enough of this $hit to go around. Not only that, but no more "clones and end-game" running around. You are almost guranteed to have different equipment than everyone else.
"But... how does it work?"
Glad you asked - If you have a weapon with some ability like (Summon Rain of Fire) on it... everytime you land a Critical Hit - that badboy Summons a giant f@cking storm cell over your point of origin and starts to rain sheets of fire down over anything and everything. Same spell that we're all used to - but it's controlled application means it's not hogging all the bandwidth because you aren't spamming it. It only works on a Critical Hit - and really, except for Rogues... how often do you land one of those?
It's also on armor too though. So maybe you have this thing... I dunno... called a Critical Defense. Because... you know... in RPG land - everytime an attack is made, there are 2 dice rolls made - one for attack, and one for defense. And when you make a perfect defence roll... you get a Critical Defense - which is basically like.... ummmm.... oh yeah, an emulated Counter-Attack! Which means that everytime you land one of those Critical Defense thingies... your Ultra Megabrand Full Plate of Horrifying Doom will instantly give you a Buff that allows you do this maneuver called.... Faceshearing Scissor Attack or maybe Bless (AoE) or Haste (AoE) or Heal (AoE) or all of them (because it's epic).... because that armor has those abilities built into it. Kind of gives you a reason to think about what you're wearing... doesn't it? You know... as sort of not just what everyone else is wearing because it was the best thing you could possibly loot in that Raid dungeon. And that's awesome... because... you know.... it kind of gives you the freedom to be the character you want to be... just a little... maybe?
*sigh*
Ermm no.
There are fundamentally two philosophies in games. What your character does is based on YOUR skill, or what your character does is based on HIS skill, like his strength or dex or int or block value. Both have their audience, but I personally would never play a MMO where my characters powers are based on my own skill. If I were skilled I wouldn't play computer games!
All this jumping and dodging and whatnot just pissed me off. Maybe when you are hyper hyper and 16 years old and a console kid, ok. But then you have Super Mario-whatever. MMos should be about the character development, not fidgeting around. The more stats and numbers to flesh out the details of my char the better, thank you very much.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
An auction house that doesn't run on math... now that would be interesting.
If you got rid of math in MMO's, MMO's wouldn't exist.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
As someone said in this forum, somewhere:
To be able to run one's face over the keyboard and still viably play
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
You literally can't get rid of Math in a game with combat. You can, however, get rid of the visible damage, healing and buff numbers. I'm not sure people would want to play a game where they couldn't confirm that spec X does more damage or where spell X is better than spell Y for the mana spent, etc.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I guess. But then you've gotten rid of vital information for combat, making it a unnecassary struggle to stay informed in combat.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
I don't really think numbers should be changed much in combat at all. I don't think they're a problem. I think the problem lies with numbers on items. The majority of players don't want to have to break out a calculator and a special web mod to determine if the weapon that hits slightly faster or the weapon that hits slightly harder will produce more dps. They just want to upgrade to the better item and be done with it. Or if the purpose is to give them an option: they want a clearly-defined set of pros and cons between the two. Weeding through obscure rules like diminishing returns, soft caps, hard caps, chance procs and other needlessly dense algebra is what the game should be concerned with, not the player.
But hiding any other numbers associated with damaging attacks, character stats, or primary item roles like health bonus, is not a good idea. A huge appeal for a lot of players is simply trying to make a lot of those numbers go up one or two points (or one or two hundred, what have you). They're easily ignored by someone less interested in them, unless said person is being deliberately obtuse simply to make a dramatic soapbox excuse of an article.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Haha, wow, people COMPLETELY missed the point of my OP.
Many obviously read the title of the thread and nothing else. Some read it and missed the main point completely.
I am not saying to get rid of all math in mmo's, nor am I trying to remove depth and complexity of mmo's. The title is refering to the fact that mmo's tell me something has happened based on stats and numbers, when that thing clearly has not happened in the game (the only way the game proves to me that the thing has happened is through displaying numbers, not actually having it happen) nor does the thing the game tells me has happened make sense.
This may be confusing and vague but I will elaborate later because I don't feel like writing some long thing now.
Seeing as how I can go to a random sever onto WoW and dominate an entire section of the AH within a week without any real difficulty (every server always has at least 1 section that's not being dominated)....
I don't think most people would understand what you are trying to say, most people are math stupid lol
I know it's a day old, but I just can't get past this. The post wasn't about amazing graphics, it was about the number crunching skills required vs. control skills. Sword wielders don't do what he's saying. They get stock animations and they swing at a hit box, connecting even though they're 10 feet away from the actual boss. That's the probem he has. The enemies and players do nothing but stand still, and number generators determine if they get hit and for how much. They get to press keys to activate skills, which definitely helps alleviate the static feeling ,but even then, numbers decide if those hits land or flop.
As for his being a console player...that has nothing to do with his issue except that he has experience with games that function a certain way. Game designers sometimes make games for a single system, but often they make games for most of the consoles AND for the computer as well. So they have all the problems of a computer plus more. And deisgners of computer games don't care about the variety of computer abilites. They aim for midrange computers and call it a day. If a computer isn't able to run the game, it doesn't. But if it can't, it's usually outdated or low end, which aren't the sort of targets anyone shoots for. It's one thing to miss the point of the post, it's another to be woefully misinformed.
I can't beleive you think you should be taken seriously. A devoted console player seldom likes MMOs? Really? Wow...if you're going to be a jerk to someone, at least know something about what you're tlaking about.
As for later posts about the troubles of bad internet connections that lead to rubberbanding and wanky aiming, thats a great, thoughtful answer. Kudos to knowledge!!!
mmo is NOT a genre on its own. Its just a term that indicates if a game, no matter the genre, is massively multiplayer online. Thats it. Nothing more, nothing less. RTS,FPS,Action,Fighting,Racing,RPG: These are genres that can have an mmo element added to them.
Saying you have a problem with mmos because they dont play like fps like saying you have a problem with 3D movies because they arent all comedies. It misses the point entirely. They are not terms that one would use as a compare and contrast. One is an element of another, its not one or the other.
Ignore post.
in other words; stop wishing that an mmorpg was an mmofps. they are 2 different genres for a reason.
Because number *is* fun. Otherwise, you won't have EJ devoting large amount of time to mathematically model WOW. Power comes from optimization and math is the way to fun gameplay.
Look, if I am so wrong . . . PROVE it. You seem to know exactly HOW to do it so make the game you are talking about. Send me a message with it's name and IF you managed to make a fun and playable game, I'll buy it and play it. If not you won't get any money from me. That easy. I myself don't think what you are describing is possible so I have no faith in you, but you are more than welcome to prove me wrong. IF you can.
Until then, I will continue to play my MMO's, and in fact basically EVERY game out there, that use the math and have fun doing so.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
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Dude..... we're done talking. You have read nothing I have written, or worse you just don't understand.
Also - If I were going to make this game somehow.... proving you wrong would be the least of my worries. I'm not 12. I don't get mad at people on the interent anymore.
You wouldnt like a game that wouldnt have maths...
... if it would be possible to make such a game. The computer is ALL maths, after all.
What exactly do you mean by math? It seems like you want more realistic, responsive combat, but that math and numbers work very well with that too, in fact it's probably going to require a lot more complex calculations.
For me only fun thing about RPG's is exactly the numbers, the optimization of characters and equipment. It's a core part of RPG's. You are most likely looking for some different genre, MMO, MMOFPS, social game, I don't what all genres there are.