I don't think allow players to solo everything via scaling is the way to go. Instead, I would argue that grouping just needs to be made easier and more accessible for the casual player.
I myself have become more of a casual player due to getting older and I hardly ever group. Reason being because my play sessions are like 2-3 hours long and I sometimes I have leave unexpectedly if something comes up. Grouping for a dungeon is a huge time commitment. It can sometimes take hours to even find a group and then when you get in the group, the dungeon is normally a multi-hour commitment and you feel guilty if you have to leave because you know you are basically screwing your group over.
So here is what I propose...
1. Implement a matchmaking system for dungeons similar to how WoW's BG matchmaking (or Starcraft matchmaking). You just join the matchmaking queue and go on your way. The system will match you up with a group that needs you (class-wise). Regular groups will still be allowed of course.
2. Allow the matchmaking system to "drop-in" players to groups that have a dungeon in progress but have lost members.
I know it reduces immersion, but really I think it's better than making everything soloable because I actually WANT to group, but I'm not willing/able to deal with the overhead invovled in getting into a group.
Lets take 2 very popular movies & Games on these forums. Lord of the rings & Star Wars. Now both of these movies have the stars that the movies are based around. But in these movies are HUGE epic scale battles. Not 10- 140 but thousands upon thousands of people,thingys,robots.
Agreed. Large epic battles is part of fantasy. But we have no name for that even since due to technical reason have no MMORPG ever made something like that. We have 1 person, a small group and a large group.
A battle like that would have to be either scalable or PvP and I look forward to an epic game with huge battles in the future sometimes.
The question here anyways is: Can and should you make all content of MMOs scalable from 1 to a bunch of players or not.
I think no because I think it would make the game less fun, I am all for some scalable things but an entire game you can solo is just not a good idea.
I don't think allow players to solo everything via scaling is the way to go. Instead, I would argue that grouping just needs to be made easier and more accessible for the casual player.
I myself have become more of a casual player due to getting older and I hardly ever group. Reason being because my play sessions are like 2-3 hours long and I sometimes I have leave unexpectedly if something comes up. Grouping for a dungeon is a huge time commitment. It can sometimes take hours to even find a group and then when you get in the group, the dungeon is normally a multi-hour commitment and you feel guilty if you have to leave because you know you are basically screwing your group over.
So here is what I propose...
1. Implement a matchmaking system for dungeons similar to how WoW's BG matchmaking (or Starcraft matchmaking). You just join the matchmaking queue and go on your way. The system will match you up with a group that needs you (class-wise). Regular groups will still be allowed of course.
2. Allow the matchmaking system to "drop-in" players to groups that have a dungeon in progress but have lost members.
I know it reduces immersion, but really I think it's better than making everything soloable because I actually WANT to group, but I'm not willing/able to deal with the overhead invovled in getting into a group.
Listen, groping in modern MMOs is already so easy that my friend who is a teacher have almost every kid in her class play Wow, they are 9. How much easier should it get?.
I think we rather need some games that cateers to different groups of players or have certain servers for casuals, hardcore and regular players. If you make MMOs more casual than it is today the genre will lose a lot of players as well as it would if the games all become a lot harder.
I don't believe in the "One game to rule them all" talk. Some games should be aimed at casual players and others should not. The alternative is the compromises we seen the last few years that leaves no one happy but everyone so so.
I want my game, you want yours and I frankly believe we both deserve a few games aimed at our player type, there is enough players for at least one large casual game and 1 large tougher game.
I guess at the end of the day it really comes down to this: MMO's are supposed to be Massive MULTI player games. These games have always included grouping and the need to group as part of the game dynamic.
The OP is correct that we are certainly moving away from this mechanic and making all games easier for solo players to play. But again MMO. If we are going to continue to move away and make all games single player games with a soical lobby, why even bother?
IMO i feel that there still has to be some kind of Group/raid content in these games. WHile i understand that this is not for everyone. Thats part of life. If you choose to play the game in your own way thats great. But dont complain where there are certain things that you are unable to do becuase of your choices.
As a RPG player(P&P and video games), and avid book reader, I can say,"Most stories do not involve 10 to 140 people beating on one guy for an hour for phat lewts." It's usually 1 to 5 guys and/or gals fighting a dragon, gang, monster, or a horde. Thematically raids just don't happen anywhere other than MMOs.
If raids were done away with, I wouldn't shed a tear. MMO means being able to play with many people, not playing with the exact same people every day for the next year just for loot.
That's the players fault.
Whether there is raiding or not shoudln't affect how you play. Just because one can play every day for the next year for loot doesn't mean that we as intelligent people have to subject ourselves to such abuse.
I've only done a few raids in LOTRO and loved each time I did them. But i don't make it a habit to seek that every night.
As far as stories not involving 10 to 140 people, well, you are correct. But in those stories, besides the main characters, there might be battles that DO include more people.
It's very difficult to have an epic battle with 6 people per side.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I believe that soloplayers should have some kind of endgame as well as anyone else, many game teaches people to solo and then cut them of at max level.
For it to be an "end game", the game has to change. Or else it's just more game, not an "end game".
So a solo "end game" would be, you level up your character.
Then you reach max level, the "end" of that part of the game.
So then instead of leveling up your character more, you collect gear. First you beat a boss mob and get the +1 sword of ultimate doom. Then you get the +2 sword of ultimate doom. Then you get the +3 sword of ultimate doom, and so on, unitl you get the super sword of ultimate doom +1. And then you get teh super sword of ultimate doom +2....
I can see some solo players would enjoy that. Lots of players like to collect things.
Yeah, lets let the soloers play EVERYTHING in the game. Every quest, boss, raid, wigit, whatever but then lets make each of these experiences scale depeneding on the number of people in the party.
The second you get something a soloer doesn't, they will cry. The loot, the experience, The title, whatever the case may be, better be exactly the same as solo mode, or they will cry.
The simple fact is, the genre players are people who don't understand the concept of time and effort. You can't make a game that is enjoyable that someone with more time or drive won't have it better off than you. This is something casual people just have to deal with.
I don't think allow players to solo everything via scaling is the way to go. Instead, I would argue that grouping just needs to be made easier and more accessible for the casual player.
I myself have become more of a casual player due to getting older and I hardly ever group. Reason being because my play sessions are like 2-3 hours long and I sometimes I have leave unexpectedly if something comes up. Grouping for a dungeon is a huge time commitment. It can sometimes take hours to even find a group and then when you get in the group, the dungeon is normally a multi-hour commitment and you feel guilty if you have to leave because you know you are basically screwing your group over.
So here is what I propose...
1. Implement a matchmaking system for dungeons similar to how WoW's BG matchmaking (or Starcraft matchmaking). You just join the matchmaking queue and go on your way. The system will match you up with a group that needs you (class-wise). Regular groups will still be allowed of course.
2. Allow the matchmaking system to "drop-in" players to groups that have a dungeon in progress but have lost members.
I know it reduces immersion, but really I think it's better than making everything soloable because I actually WANT to group, but I'm not willing/able to deal with the overhead invovled in getting into a group.
Listen, groping in modern MMOs is already so easy that my friend who is a teacher have almost every kid in her class play Wow, they are 9. How much easier should it get?.
I think we rather need some games that cateers to different groups of players or have certain servers for casuals, hardcore and regular players. If you make MMOs more casual than it is today the genre will lose a lot of players as well as it would if the games all become a lot harder.
I don't believe in the "One game to rule them all" talk. Some games should be aimed at casual players and others should not. The alternative is the compromises we seen the last few years that leaves no one happy but everyone so so.
I want my game, you want yours and I frankly believe we both deserve a few games aimed at our player type, there is enough players for at least one large casual game and 1 large tougher game.
I agree that there should be multiple games for different tastes.
Still, I don't see how a matchmaking system to help in grouping would make a game less "hardcore." After all, the only part of the game your eliminating is spamming general chat for an hour trying to find a group. I really don't see this as a big loss. The actual dungeon content can be just as difficult as it was before.
I strongly disagree. In another of your posts, OP, you wrote about how many MMO devs don't target the right market- since WoW players (or many of them) are not MMO players in general. Dumbing a game down and making it absolutely solo friendly, that's not what we, the MMO players want, but what many WOW players seem to prefer. Now, according to you, they are not even a market! They won't leave WoW. So why does no dev try to appeal to the MMO player that wants to go back to the roots of online gaming?
Heck, if I could complete all content solo, why would I want to play a MMO? A single player, console game often has better mechanics, a better story and I don't have to pay a monthly fee. What makes MMOs so great is the group experience. Now, by making raids solo-able, you take a lot away. It's things like that that destroy the community and make MMOs more and more single player centric. Many who are happy with not having the best gear wouldn't want to raid. And if you could complete all quests, all instances alone...why would anyone want to group? There will be a few who will grudgingly do so for the best gear, but for the rest of the game- for leveling, questing, grinding- everyone will solo. In the first place, I don't even agree with the trend that you can basically solo to level cap in most newly released games and WoW.
Now, many games garner to the solo player and I don't say that I always group. But it's those quests that you can't finish alone, those instances that are a challenge and require teamwork and those raids where you have to rely on your teammates to beat it that make MMOs great for me. It's a good feeling to team up and get something done that you couldn't have achieved alone. And honestly, from where are you taking it that all MMO players want to solo 100% of the time? As far as I know, no group centric game has really been made this year or last year. I'm not saying I want a game where every quest has to be done in a group, but I sure as hell would love to play a game that is a little bit more group-centric! Also, making everything soloable wouldn't help player skill either. If you never played in a group, never experienced how to act and what group mechanics you have to look out for, you are going to suck in a group. Soloing a boss and taking it on as a group is not the same. I'm sick and tired of dumbed down and solo-centric- I want a game where my skills as a player, my coordination with a group, me having actually LEARNED how to play my class both alone and in a party matters. And I'm not even a "vet" so to speak. Well, sorry for the rant, that just my opinion. No offense to anyone intended
Yeah, lets let the soloers play EVERYTHING in the game. Every quest, boss, raid, wigit, whatever but then lets make each of these experiences scale depeneding on the number of people in the party.
The second you get something a soloer doesn't, they will cry. The loot, the experience, The title, whatever the case may be, better be exactly the same as solo mode, or they will cry.
The simple fact is, the genre players are people who don't understand the concept of time and effort. You can't make a game that is enjoyable that someone with more time or drive won't have it better off than you. This is something casual people just have to deal with.
It's important to note that in some games, people can be soloers and still have the same gear as groupers, they just do it differently and in some ways it can be harder.
I mostly soloed in Lineage2. loved my clan and would group with them of course. But mostly soloed to level. Still, i had excellent gear with the exception of some epic raid jewelery.
Why? because leveling is separate from the economy in some ways. One has to work the econony, and gear for the most part, doesn't bind so it can be sold after the player is done with it.
There is no specific gear for people who raid or specific gear for people to earn through pvp but "gear" that is better for raiding pve or pvp and one can buy both or get it as a drop, etc.
So one can solo to their heart's content and still get gear that is usable. They have to group for things such as dungeons that have better xp or for dungeons where they can get the mats they need (if they don't want to buy them) or for specific bosses taht are required for class changes/sub classes.
Both soloer and grouper can coexist.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What this thread shows it some gamers base their game play and time around acquiring in game rewards and others want a sense of adventure and challenge or other intangible goals like working as a team to successfully overcome an objective.
People focused on rewards don't like having to rely on others to get them and seem to prefer soloing or at least the option to solo for their rewards.
People after adventure and challenge see rewards more as a nice little bonus.
It seems AAA developers the last few years have been focusing on trying to make a one size fits all mmo. I'd prefer they pick a demographic and cater to them.
I can appreciate some catering to single players, but in the case of raids I disagree. Take for example GW1. I could go through the entire first campaign solo. Once you figured out the dynamics it really wasn't that hard. But my favorite part in GW was playing through "The Deep". it was a very complex area that required all the players to work together to complete the goal. It was about knowing your job and doing it well. That is what made it enjoyable for me, the teamwork aspect. I don't care if other places allow for solo play but I don't want to lose the aspect of teamwork, or the crazy dynamics of a raid just so a person can go through it solo. I think raids need to be more diverse and complex, not less.
I can appreciate that but what say you about the dynamic content?
Using your example, yes the solo version would be less complex but as the instance scales to your party it can become more difficult, complex and rewarding.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have rushed through my post and it ended up being rather unclear. I shouldn't have used dynamic, but different. And I do think that your explaination is possible, I'm not trying to argue over that.
I enjoy soloing. and don't mind progressing through a game by myself rarely looking for a group.
But a raid is a different story. A raid is about overcoming odds, beating challenges that require teamwork. That is the nature of a raid. And just like in real life, The rewards are much greater for people that can work as a team. A person's inability to work with other people SHOULD mean that they don't get to acheive the same ends.
Personally, I think the exact reason that the people that want raids to be soloable, is the same reason why they shouldn't be. The rewards are there for the people that overcome the challenges of finding other players to work with, and learn to cooperate with them. If a player can't work with other players to reach the goal, then they don't deserve the rewards.
A game without raiding, can be as solo friendly as possible. I like raiding, so I wouldn't be as interested in it.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
What this thread shows it some gamers base their game play and time around acquiring in game rewards and others want a sense of adventure and challenge or other intangible goals like working as a team to successfully overcome an objective.
People focused on rewards don't like having to rely on others to get them and seem to prefer soloing or at least the option to solo for their rewards.
People after adventure and challenge see rewards more as a nice little bonus.
It seems AAA developers the last few years have been focusing on trying to make a one size fits all mmo. I'd prefer they pick a demographic and cater to them.
Excellent summation though I feel as though I may fall a bit in the middle. I want cool shit but I want to get it for a reason and with a challenge and friends.
I don't think allow players to solo everything via scaling is the way to go. Instead, I would argue that grouping just needs to be made easier and more accessible for the casual player.
I myself have become more of a casual player due to getting older and I hardly ever group. Reason being because my play sessions are like 2-3 hours long and I sometimes I have leave unexpectedly if something comes up. Grouping for a dungeon is a huge time commitment. It can sometimes take hours to even find a group and then when you get in the group, the dungeon is normally a multi-hour commitment and you feel guilty if you have to leave because you know you are basically screwing your group over.
So here is what I propose...
1. Implement a matchmaking system for dungeons similar to how WoW's BG matchmaking (or Starcraft matchmaking). You just join the matchmaking queue and go on your way. The system will match you up with a group that needs you (class-wise). Regular groups will still be allowed of course.
2. Allow the matchmaking system to "drop-in" players to groups that have a dungeon in progress but have lost members.
I know it reduces immersion, but really I think it's better than making everything soloable because I actually WANT to group, but I'm not willing/able to deal with the overhead invovled in getting into a group.
I appreciate the arguement, and I think its wrong. Unexpected things happen often. It is a burden on others to join up with them and not be able to finish. If you know that instance, dungeons, raids are going to take longer than you probably ahve, then you need not sign up for them. the answer isnt to make it easier for you to join and to drop. That just makes it too casual. If you are going to be committed to other people to a common cause then you should be able to commit the time encessarya s well, if not htne that part of the game is just not going to be available to you. By extension, then perhaps MMOS in general are not for you anymore, or perhaps the grouping aspect is not longer appropriate for you.
As a single parent myself, I feel for your situation. I love the group aspect of MMOs and it is not very often that I can participate. I feel that it is up to me to be ready and be able to spend the time to commit to others in the group. Since most of the time I cant, I dont particpate in those areas very often. Instead I found a group of people in a situation similar to me and that makes it easier. We plan in advance common days that we all can commit to and go from there, other than that I group with family were there is no stigma attached to leaving earlier nor is there a problem.
If is up to each individual to consider the group as a whole and make themselves a proper candidate for grouping activities, not the other way around. The many should not have to accommmodate the one.
What this thread shows it some gamers base their game play and time around acquiring in game rewards and others want a sense of adventure and challenge or other intangible goals like working as a team to successfully overcome an objective.
People focused on rewards don't like having to rely on others to get them and seem to prefer soloing or at least the option to solo for their rewards.
People after adventure and challenge see rewards more as a nice little bonus.
It seems AAA developers the last few years have been focusing on trying to make a one size fits all mmo. I'd prefer they pick a demographic and cater to them.
Excellent summation though I feel as though I may fall a bit in the middle. I want cool shit but I want to get it for a reason and with a challenge and friends.
Also agree. The "one size fits all" maybe doesn't fit "all" but it does fit a HUGE amount of players that enjoy WoW.
if you can't make a game for a lot less than 100 million dollars, then You do have to go after this HUGE crowd of solo players that want cookies.
If you can make a game for a lot less than that, you can go after a niche of players that wants something else besides a cookie, and feels like having to work with others gets in the way fo getting the cookie.
TOR is going to let you get your cookie without making you work with others. They did spend a 100 million plus on the game, so they do need WoW sized crowds.
I'm not saying it won't be fun, maybe it will be, but they are going for that least common denominator factor so they can be very popular.
Yeah, lets let the soloers play EVERYTHING in the game. Every quest, boss, raid, wigit, whatever but then lets make each of these experiences scale depeneding on the number of people in the party.
And I don't mean scale once from normal to epic/heroic. I mean dynamic scaling of both loot and difficulty. There is absolutely no reason why the game engines are not recognizing the number of people loading into an instance/raid and adjusting to that party. Nothing but lazy developers that is. Hell we could take it one step further and have each encounter tailored to your EXACT party make up. That way even groups with the ideal OP builds/group make up would still be challeneged.
Champions Online, for example, is doing this.
The result? A solo-fest game where players have no clue about proper team-play mechanics and where you hardly ever see anybody organizing a group for anything.
Lotro also scaled down plenty of old group content to small group or solo.
The result? Massive dumbification of the game. Most players get to lvl cap without having grouped not even once, and then want to join the instances and raids. Of course, since they have no knowledge of group mechanics, they can't beat the encounters, so they cry on the forums and the game gets dumbed down even further. Next wave of players is even more useless than the previous one, so they keep wiping anyway, so they cry in the forums again so the content gets dumbed down even further.
The day raid bosses are soloable is the day raiding dies and the day guilds die. And I can't see the point in playing an online game to solo everything. I'd rather play Dragon Age or New Vegas instead then, from a single player perspective they are way better, and I can always have MSN or Skype to chat with my friends while playing.
I don't think allow players to solo everything via scaling is the way to go. Instead, I would argue that grouping just needs to be made easier and more accessible for the casual player.
I myself have become more of a casual player due to getting older and I hardly ever group. Reason being because my play sessions are like 2-3 hours long and I sometimes I have leave unexpectedly if something comes up. Grouping for a dungeon is a huge time commitment. It can sometimes take hours to even find a group and then when you get in the group, the dungeon is normally a multi-hour commitment and you feel guilty if you have to leave because you know you are basically screwing your group over.
So here is what I propose...
1. Implement a matchmaking system for dungeons similar to how WoW's BG matchmaking (or Starcraft matchmaking). You just join the matchmaking queue and go on your way. The system will match you up with a group that needs you (class-wise). Regular groups will still be allowed of course.
2. Allow the matchmaking system to "drop-in" players to groups that have a dungeon in progress but have lost members.
I know it reduces immersion, but really I think it's better than making everything soloable because I actually WANT to group, but I'm not willing/able to deal with the overhead invovled in getting into a group.
I appreciate the arguement, and I think its wrong. Unexpected things happen often. It is a burden on others to join up with them and not be able to finish. If you know that instance, dungeons, raids are going to take longer than you probably ahve, then you need not sign up for them. the answer isnt to make it easier for you to join and to drop. That just makes it too casual. If you are going to be committed to other people to a common cause then you should be able to commit the time encessarya s well, if not htne that part of the game is just not going to be available to you. By extension, then perhaps MMOS in general are not for you anymore, or perhaps the grouping aspect is not longer appropriate for you.
As a single parent myself, I feel for your situation. I love the group aspect of MMOs and it is not very often that I can participate. I feel that it is up to me to be ready and be able to spend the time to commit to others in the group. Since most of the time I cant, I dont particpate in those areas very often. Instead I found a group of people in a situation similar to me and that makes it easier. We plan in advance common days that we all can commit to and go from there, other than that I group with family were there is no stigma attached to leaving earlier nor is there a problem.
If is up to each individual to consider the group as a whole and make themselves a proper candidate for grouping activities, not the other way around. The many should not have to accommmodate the one.
A good compromise is to make large dungeons or quests doable in one hour chunks, or less.
Pshyea. And have epic long ones too! Have both. Do it like Karazan, have an epic long raid, but have sections that take about an hour. Implimented better of course so casuals don't feel compelled to do the entire run...
Yeah, lets let the soloers play EVERYTHING in the game. Every quest, boss, raid, wigit, whatever but then lets make each of these experiences scale depeneding on the number of people in the party.
The second you get something a soloer doesn't, they will cry. The loot, the experience, The title, whatever the case may be, better be exactly the same as solo mode, or they will cry.
The simple fact is, the genre players are people who don't understand the concept of time and effort. You can't make a game that is enjoyable that someone with more time or drive won't have it better off than you. This is something casual people just have to deal with.
It's the same group that was raised to believe that everyone gets a trophy just for trying. I miss the days of effort gets you the gold, not just showing up.
The lure of scalable content is strong, but just like the dungeon finder, the benefits are outweighed by the cost.
Sure, there should be strong end game content for solo players, but an MMORPG should always have some segment of content that is group oriented. Some should be small group, and some should be raid oriented. I don't think the small group content should be required to feed the raid content, nor should those who pursue it be inferior to those who do not raid, the rewards should be different, but on an equal level. (same for the solo player).
As mentioned, for games to appeal to the broadest possible player base companies must provide as many options as possible. It makes the game very expansive (and expensive) however this is the way of the "Mega-MMORPG" I think.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What this thread shows it some gamers base their game play and time around acquiring in game rewards and others want a sense of adventure and challenge or other intangible goals like working as a team to successfully overcome an objective.
People focused on rewards don't like having to rely on others to get them and seem to prefer soloing or at least the option to solo for their rewards.
People after adventure and challenge see rewards more as a nice little bonus.
It seems AAA developers the last few years have been focusing on trying to make a one size fits all mmo. I'd prefer they pick a demographic and cater to them.
Excellent summation though I feel as though I may fall a bit in the middle. I want cool shit but I want to get it for a reason and with a challenge and friends.
Also agree. The "one size fits all" maybe doesn't fit "all" but it does fit a HUGE amount of players that enjoy WoW.
if you can't make a game for a lot less than 100 million dollars, then You do have to go after this HUGE crowd of solo players that want cookies.
If you can make a game for a lot less than that, you can go after a niche of players that wants something else besides a cookie, and feels like having to work with others gets in the way fo getting the cookie.
TOR is going to let you get your cookie without making you work with others. They did spend a 100 million plus on the game, so they do need WoW sized crowds.
I'm not saying it won't be fun, maybe it will be, but they are going for that least common denominator factor so they can be very popular.
They have to to be profitable.
I think by trying to cater to everyone you end up with a game that has no real direction and just ends up bland like WAR or AoC. I'd say it also wastes a lot of money and efficiency implementing too many systems and trying to mesh them all together properly.
If they focused a bit more they wouldn't need to maintain such a large subscription base to be profitable.
I agree TOR is most likely going to be very solo orientated but i have no problem with that. I'm expecting a more KOTOR experience than a proper MMO one. In fact in a game like TOR i'd probably prefer soloing mainly because of the story. However i'm sure if TOR was hugely successful and developers tried copying its model i'd get bored again. I'm just sick of logging into a new mmo and getting that very familar been here done that feeling.
I don't think allow players to solo everything via scaling is the way to go. Instead, I would argue that grouping just needs to be made easier and more accessible for the casual player.
I myself have become more of a casual player due to getting older and I hardly ever group. Reason being because my play sessions are like 2-3 hours long and I sometimes I have leave unexpectedly if something comes up. Grouping for a dungeon is a huge time commitment. It can sometimes take hours to even find a group and then when you get in the group, the dungeon is normally a multi-hour commitment and you feel guilty if you have to leave because you know you are basically screwing your group over.
So here is what I propose...
1. Implement a matchmaking system for dungeons similar to how WoW's BG matchmaking (or Starcraft matchmaking). You just join the matchmaking queue and go on your way. The system will match you up with a group that needs you (class-wise). Regular groups will still be allowed of course.
2. Allow the matchmaking system to "drop-in" players to groups that have a dungeon in progress but have lost members.
I know it reduces immersion, but really I think it's better than making everything soloable because I actually WANT to group, but I'm not willing/able to deal with the overhead invovled in getting into a group.
I appreciate the arguement, and I think its wrong. Unexpected things happen often. It is a burden on others to join up with them and not be able to finish. If you know that instance, dungeons, raids are going to take longer than you probably ahve, then you need not sign up for them. the answer isnt to make it easier for you to join and to drop. That just makes it too casual. If you are going to be committed to other people to a common cause then you should be able to commit the time encessarya s well, if not htne that part of the game is just not going to be available to you. By extension, then perhaps MMOS in general are not for you anymore, or perhaps the grouping aspect is not longer appropriate for you.
As a single parent myself, I feel for your situation. I love the group aspect of MMOs and it is not very often that I can participate. I feel that it is up to me to be ready and be able to spend the time to commit to others in the group. Since most of the time I cant, I dont particpate in those areas very often. Instead I found a group of people in a situation similar to me and that makes it easier. We plan in advance common days that we all can commit to and go from there, other than that I group with family were there is no stigma attached to leaving earlier nor is there a problem.
If is up to each individual to consider the group as a whole and make themselves a proper candidate for grouping activities, not the other way around. The many should not have to accommmodate the one.
I fail to see how letting a group easily find a replacement for a member that left is hurting anything. Honestly, all you're doing is taking the "spam general chat for a healer" portion out of the game. I don't really see how this adds at all to the experience.
If you feel that enabling people to find group members without having to spam general chat will somehow make a game worse, then please let me know why.
However. If the game is designed to be soloed to the cap, I don't understand how that concept is thrown out of the window when it comes to endgame. It simply doesn't make any sense. Take it all the way if you do it.
If the game is a grouping game, that should be the primary focus before and during endgame. If the game is a soloing game, the same should apply.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
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I don't think allow players to solo everything via scaling is the way to go. Instead, I would argue that grouping just needs to be made easier and more accessible for the casual player.
I myself have become more of a casual player due to getting older and I hardly ever group. Reason being because my play sessions are like 2-3 hours long and I sometimes I have leave unexpectedly if something comes up. Grouping for a dungeon is a huge time commitment. It can sometimes take hours to even find a group and then when you get in the group, the dungeon is normally a multi-hour commitment and you feel guilty if you have to leave because you know you are basically screwing your group over.
So here is what I propose...
1. Implement a matchmaking system for dungeons similar to how WoW's BG matchmaking (or Starcraft matchmaking). You just join the matchmaking queue and go on your way. The system will match you up with a group that needs you (class-wise). Regular groups will still be allowed of course.
2. Allow the matchmaking system to "drop-in" players to groups that have a dungeon in progress but have lost members.
I know it reduces immersion, but really I think it's better than making everything soloable because I actually WANT to group, but I'm not willing/able to deal with the overhead invovled in getting into a group.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Agreed. Large epic battles is part of fantasy. But we have no name for that even since due to technical reason have no MMORPG ever made something like that. We have 1 person, a small group and a large group.
A battle like that would have to be either scalable or PvP and I look forward to an epic game with huge battles in the future sometimes.
The question here anyways is: Can and should you make all content of MMOs scalable from 1 to a bunch of players or not.
I think no because I think it would make the game less fun, I am all for some scalable things but an entire game you can solo is just not a good idea.
Listen, groping in modern MMOs is already so easy that my friend who is a teacher have almost every kid in her class play Wow, they are 9. How much easier should it get?.
I think we rather need some games that cateers to different groups of players or have certain servers for casuals, hardcore and regular players. If you make MMOs more casual than it is today the genre will lose a lot of players as well as it would if the games all become a lot harder.
I don't believe in the "One game to rule them all" talk. Some games should be aimed at casual players and others should not. The alternative is the compromises we seen the last few years that leaves no one happy but everyone so so.
I want my game, you want yours and I frankly believe we both deserve a few games aimed at our player type, there is enough players for at least one large casual game and 1 large tougher game.
That's the players fault.
Whether there is raiding or not shoudln't affect how you play. Just because one can play every day for the next year for loot doesn't mean that we as intelligent people have to subject ourselves to such abuse.
I've only done a few raids in LOTRO and loved each time I did them. But i don't make it a habit to seek that every night.
As far as stories not involving 10 to 140 people, well, you are correct. But in those stories, besides the main characters, there might be battles that DO include more people.
It's very difficult to have an epic battle with 6 people per side.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
For it to be an "end game", the game has to change. Or else it's just more game, not an "end game".
So a solo "end game" would be, you level up your character.
Then you reach max level, the "end" of that part of the game.
So then instead of leveling up your character more, you collect gear. First you beat a boss mob and get the +1 sword of ultimate doom. Then you get the +2 sword of ultimate doom. Then you get the +3 sword of ultimate doom, and so on, unitl you get the super sword of ultimate doom +1. And then you get teh super sword of ultimate doom +2....
I can see some solo players would enjoy that. Lots of players like to collect things.
I agree that there should be multiple games for different tastes.
Still, I don't see how a matchmaking system to help in grouping would make a game less "hardcore." After all, the only part of the game your eliminating is spamming general chat for an hour trying to find a group. I really don't see this as a big loss. The actual dungeon content can be just as difficult as it was before.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I strongly disagree. In another of your posts, OP, you wrote about how many MMO devs don't target the right market- since WoW players (or many of them) are not MMO players in general. Dumbing a game down and making it absolutely solo friendly, that's not what we, the MMO players want, but what many WOW players seem to prefer. Now, according to you, they are not even a market! They won't leave WoW. So why does no dev try to appeal to the MMO player that wants to go back to the roots of online gaming?
Heck, if I could complete all content solo, why would I want to play a MMO? A single player, console game often has better mechanics, a better story and I don't have to pay a monthly fee. What makes MMOs so great is the group experience. Now, by making raids solo-able, you take a lot away. It's things like that that destroy the community and make MMOs more and more single player centric. Many who are happy with not having the best gear wouldn't want to raid. And if you could complete all quests, all instances alone...why would anyone want to group? There will be a few who will grudgingly do so for the best gear, but for the rest of the game- for leveling, questing, grinding- everyone will solo. In the first place, I don't even agree with the trend that you can basically solo to level cap in most newly released games and WoW.
Now, many games garner to the solo player and I don't say that I always group. But it's those quests that you can't finish alone, those instances that are a challenge and require teamwork and those raids where you have to rely on your teammates to beat it that make MMOs great for me. It's a good feeling to team up and get something done that you couldn't have achieved alone. And honestly, from where are you taking it that all MMO players want to solo 100% of the time? As far as I know, no group centric game has really been made this year or last year. I'm not saying I want a game where every quest has to be done in a group, but I sure as hell would love to play a game that is a little bit more group-centric! Also, making everything soloable wouldn't help player skill either. If you never played in a group, never experienced how to act and what group mechanics you have to look out for, you are going to suck in a group. Soloing a boss and taking it on as a group is not the same. I'm sick and tired of dumbed down and solo-centric- I want a game where my skills as a player, my coordination with a group, me having actually LEARNED how to play my class both alone and in a party matters. And I'm not even a "vet" so to speak. Well, sorry for the rant, that just my opinion. No offense to anyone intended
It's important to note that in some games, people can be soloers and still have the same gear as groupers, they just do it differently and in some ways it can be harder.
I mostly soloed in Lineage2. loved my clan and would group with them of course. But mostly soloed to level. Still, i had excellent gear with the exception of some epic raid jewelery.
Why? because leveling is separate from the economy in some ways. One has to work the econony, and gear for the most part, doesn't bind so it can be sold after the player is done with it.
There is no specific gear for people who raid or specific gear for people to earn through pvp but "gear" that is better for raiding pve or pvp and one can buy both or get it as a drop, etc.
So one can solo to their heart's content and still get gear that is usable. They have to group for things such as dungeons that have better xp or for dungeons where they can get the mats they need (if they don't want to buy them) or for specific bosses taht are required for class changes/sub classes.
Both soloer and grouper can coexist.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What this thread shows it some gamers base their game play and time around acquiring in game rewards and others want a sense of adventure and challenge or other intangible goals like working as a team to successfully overcome an objective.
People focused on rewards don't like having to rely on others to get them and seem to prefer soloing or at least the option to solo for their rewards.
People after adventure and challenge see rewards more as a nice little bonus.
It seems AAA developers the last few years have been focusing on trying to make a one size fits all mmo. I'd prefer they pick a demographic and cater to them.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have rushed through my post and it ended up being rather unclear. I shouldn't have used dynamic, but different. And I do think that your explaination is possible, I'm not trying to argue over that.
I enjoy soloing. and don't mind progressing through a game by myself rarely looking for a group.
But a raid is a different story. A raid is about overcoming odds, beating challenges that require teamwork. That is the nature of a raid. And just like in real life, The rewards are much greater for people that can work as a team. A person's inability to work with other people SHOULD mean that they don't get to acheive the same ends.
Personally, I think the exact reason that the people that want raids to be soloable, is the same reason why they shouldn't be. The rewards are there for the people that overcome the challenges of finding other players to work with, and learn to cooperate with them. If a player can't work with other players to reach the goal, then they don't deserve the rewards.
A game without raiding, can be as solo friendly as possible. I like raiding, so I wouldn't be as interested in it.
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Excellent summation though I feel as though I may fall a bit in the middle. I want cool shit but I want to get it for a reason and with a challenge and friends.
I appreciate the arguement, and I think its wrong. Unexpected things happen often. It is a burden on others to join up with them and not be able to finish. If you know that instance, dungeons, raids are going to take longer than you probably ahve, then you need not sign up for them. the answer isnt to make it easier for you to join and to drop. That just makes it too casual. If you are going to be committed to other people to a common cause then you should be able to commit the time encessarya s well, if not htne that part of the game is just not going to be available to you. By extension, then perhaps MMOS in general are not for you anymore, or perhaps the grouping aspect is not longer appropriate for you.
As a single parent myself, I feel for your situation. I love the group aspect of MMOs and it is not very often that I can participate. I feel that it is up to me to be ready and be able to spend the time to commit to others in the group. Since most of the time I cant, I dont particpate in those areas very often. Instead I found a group of people in a situation similar to me and that makes it easier. We plan in advance common days that we all can commit to and go from there, other than that I group with family were there is no stigma attached to leaving earlier nor is there a problem.
If is up to each individual to consider the group as a whole and make themselves a proper candidate for grouping activities, not the other way around. The many should not have to accommmodate the one.
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
Also agree. The "one size fits all" maybe doesn't fit "all" but it does fit a HUGE amount of players that enjoy WoW.
if you can't make a game for a lot less than 100 million dollars, then You do have to go after this HUGE crowd of solo players that want cookies.
If you can make a game for a lot less than that, you can go after a niche of players that wants something else besides a cookie, and feels like having to work with others gets in the way fo getting the cookie.
TOR is going to let you get your cookie without making you work with others. They did spend a 100 million plus on the game, so they do need WoW sized crowds.
I'm not saying it won't be fun, maybe it will be, but they are going for that least common denominator factor so they can be very popular.
They have to to be profitable.
Champions Online, for example, is doing this.
The result? A solo-fest game where players have no clue about proper team-play mechanics and where you hardly ever see anybody organizing a group for anything.
Lotro also scaled down plenty of old group content to small group or solo.
The result? Massive dumbification of the game. Most players get to lvl cap without having grouped not even once, and then want to join the instances and raids. Of course, since they have no knowledge of group mechanics, they can't beat the encounters, so they cry on the forums and the game gets dumbed down even further. Next wave of players is even more useless than the previous one, so they keep wiping anyway, so they cry in the forums again so the content gets dumbed down even further.
The day raid bosses are soloable is the day raiding dies and the day guilds die. And I can't see the point in playing an online game to solo everything. I'd rather play Dragon Age or New Vegas instead then, from a single player perspective they are way better, and I can always have MSN or Skype to chat with my friends while playing.
A good compromise is to make large dungeons or quests doable in one hour chunks, or less.
Pshyea. And have epic long ones too! Have both. Do it like Karazan, have an epic long raid, but have sections that take about an hour. Implimented better of course so casuals don't feel compelled to do the entire run...
It's the same group that was raised to believe that everyone gets a trophy just for trying. I miss the days of effort gets you the gold, not just showing up.
The lure of scalable content is strong, but just like the dungeon finder, the benefits are outweighed by the cost.
Sure, there should be strong end game content for solo players, but an MMORPG should always have some segment of content that is group oriented. Some should be small group, and some should be raid oriented. I don't think the small group content should be required to feed the raid content, nor should those who pursue it be inferior to those who do not raid, the rewards should be different, but on an equal level. (same for the solo player).
As mentioned, for games to appeal to the broadest possible player base companies must provide as many options as possible. It makes the game very expansive (and expensive) however this is the way of the "Mega-MMORPG" I think.
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I think by trying to cater to everyone you end up with a game that has no real direction and just ends up bland like WAR or AoC. I'd say it also wastes a lot of money and efficiency implementing too many systems and trying to mesh them all together properly.
If they focused a bit more they wouldn't need to maintain such a large subscription base to be profitable.
I agree TOR is most likely going to be very solo orientated but i have no problem with that. I'm expecting a more KOTOR experience than a proper MMO one. In fact in a game like TOR i'd probably prefer soloing mainly because of the story. However i'm sure if TOR was hugely successful and developers tried copying its model i'd get bored again. I'm just sick of logging into a new mmo and getting that very familar been here done that feeling.
I fail to see how letting a group easily find a replacement for a member that left is hurting anything. Honestly, all you're doing is taking the "spam general chat for a healer" portion out of the game. I don't really see how this adds at all to the experience.
If you feel that enabling people to find group members without having to spam general chat will somehow make a game worse, then please let me know why.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
people solo because it takes too long to group:D
Can't say I agree with this thread.
However. If the game is designed to be soloed to the cap, I don't understand how that concept is thrown out of the window when it comes to endgame. It simply doesn't make any sense. Take it all the way if you do it.
If the game is a grouping game, that should be the primary focus before and during endgame. If the game is a soloing game, the same should apply.
Grouping takes too long becouse people solo. ^^
Soloing takes too group because people long.