Well I don't know about EQ but as far as DAoC is concerned I think some people are overstating the 'every pull was different' angle. Occasionally a pull would go badly and provide a bit of excitement but on the whole camping was very repetitive in my experience.
As far as the reasoning behind downtime goes I think it was simply a translation of how spells had traditionally been memorized and used in the RPG genre. In earlier forms of RPG spells were often very powerful but they were also a scarce resource. You had to use your spells points sparingly and wisely because once cast it took several hours of rest to recharge them. For obvious reasons that format was not ideal for a real-time game so the early MMOs greatly increased the rate at which spell points could be recovered but not so much that the idea of spells as a scarce resource was completely abandoned.
Way off topic now but the price casters now pay for low downtimes is that their nukes are little more than brightly coloured arrows.
I disagree that group mechanics were why MMOs weren't more popular. It had more to do with the fact that only people in I.T., college or the military even knew they existed. Or maybe it was the prohibitive cost of a new system capable of running a new 3D game.
I can understand people not liking and not wanting to be forced to group grind, which is precisely why I can't figure out why those same people can't understand that some of us don't want to quest all day long.
Bring back some group grind spots. MMOs haven't allowed it in the last 6 years aside from some smaller titles. It's time for options.
I disagree that group mechanics were why MMOs weren't more popular. It had more to do with the fact that only people in I.T., college or the military even knew they existed. Or maybe it was the prohibitive cost of a new system capable of running a new 3D game.
I can understand people not liking and not wanting to be forced to group grind, which is precisely why I can't figure out why those same people can't understand that some of us don't want to quest all day long.
Bring back some group grind spots. MMOs haven't allowed it in the last 6 years aside from some smaller titles. It's time for options.
You do have options, those smaller titles are the options. If you and others don't play them, how do we expect investors and developers to believe that that method of gameplay is a viable option?
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I disagree that group mechanics were why MMOs weren't more popular. It had more to do with the fact that only people in I.T., college or the military even knew they existed. Or maybe it was the prohibitive cost of a new system capable of running a new 3D game.
I can understand people not liking and not wanting to be forced to group grind, which is precisely why I can't figure out why those same people can't understand that some of us don't want to quest all day long.
Bring back some group grind spots. MMOs haven't allowed it in the last 6 years aside from some smaller titles. It's time for options.
You do have options, those smaller titles are the options. If you and others don't play them, how do we expect investors and developers to believe that that method of gameplay is a viable option?
Venge Sunsoar
Well said, and I personally do play indie titles, but why is it that when anyone suggests that a AAA MMO should provide the OPTION of 'camping' so many people get bent out of shape? Keep the quests, keep the solo content, keep the scripted dungeons. Why not ADD camping and open dungeons too?
Its really confusing when people say they want a game like the good old days of EQ1 of grinding mobs and claim they cant do that in our modern MMO's.
There arent any mechanics that need to be introduced to any of these games to allow you to go out and farm mobs and pick up no quests. Feel free to do so. Pick a spot with mobs and kill them repeatedly. Better than "kill 10 rats and return it for your reward"?
I guess it just makes no sense to me. I've played a lot of grinding games and I dont think its as good as some of you may remember. We didnt grind because there was a plethora of quests in an MMO. We grinded because there were no quests. Adding quests to a game doesnt take away from the mobs your able to attack in an MMO world.
*edit* Ok so reading back up the last poster sort of cleared it up for me. We're actually talking about contested content and ya, modern games lack contested content. I believe both darkfall and mortal online offer contested content though.
I am quite frankly surprised that none of these developers have provided rule-based sets of servers with their games in order to provide variety. Other than PvP or PvE servers, they haven't gone any further.
One day these guys are going to realize that it would be smart to offer other choices at launch, like a hardcore server with heavy death penalties and tougher mobs. Or alternative servers that give much less exp for quests and give much more exp for killing group mobs in the camp areas. They could even consider making an elite server that is only available for players who maxed out the same class of character in the regular servers. I am sure they can come up with all kinds of ideas. It would take a little more effort to maintain the servers, but I think the population would appreciate it.
Well I don't know about EQ but as far as DAoC is concerned I think some people are overstating the 'every pull was different' angle. Occasionally a pull would go badly and provide a bit of excitement but on the whole camping was very repetitive in my experience.
As far as the reasoning behind downtime goes I think it was simply a translation of how spells had traditionally been memorized and used in the RPG genre. In earlier forms of RPG spells were often very powerful but they were also a scarce resource. You had to use your spells points sparingly and wisely because once cast it took several hours of rest to recharge them. For obvious reasons that format was not ideal for a real-time game so the early MMOs greatly increased the rate at which spell points could be recovered but not so much that the idea of spells as a scarce resource was completely abandoned.
Way off topic now but the price casters now pay for low downtimes is that their nukes are little more than brightly coloured arrows.
You do a great job here of painting the picture of why those old camp groups were fun. I remember how the mana was very hard to manage and if you didn't run into town and buy a C3 ahead of time you wouldn't be able to spam spells like the mages of today can. I think its comical that they even give staffs to mages to use, there is no need or time to strike an enemy with it because you have plenty of mana to spam spells the whole time.
Well I don't know about EQ but as far as DAoC is concerned I think some people are overstating the 'every pull was different' angle. Occasionally a pull would go badly and provide a bit of excitement but on the whole camping was very repetitive in my experience.
As far as the reasoning behind downtime goes I think it was simply a translation of how spells had traditionally been memorized and used in the RPG genre. In earlier forms of RPG spells were often very powerful but they were also a scarce resource. You had to use your spells points sparingly and wisely because once cast it took several hours of rest to recharge them. For obvious reasons that format was not ideal for a real-time game so the early MMOs greatly increased the rate at which spell points could be recovered but not so much that the idea of spells as a scarce resource was completely abandoned.
Way off topic now but the price casters now pay for low downtimes is that their nukes are little more than brightly coloured arrows.
You do a great job here of painting the picture of why those old camp groups were fun. I remember how the mana was very hard to manage and if you didn't run into town and buy a C3 ahead of time you wouldn't be able to spam spells like the mages of today can. I think its comical that they even give staffs to mages to use, there is no need or time to strike an enemy with it because you have plenty of mana to spam spells the whole time.
Its really confusing when people say they want a game like the good old days of EQ1 of grinding mobs and claim they cant do that in our modern MMO's.
There arent any mechanics that need to be introduced to any of these games to allow you to go out and farm mobs and pick up no quests. Feel free to do so. Pick a spot with mobs and kill them repeatedly. Better than "kill 10 rats and return it for your reward"? Except I think we all can agree that camping a location won't even come close to rewarding the same exp and loot as questing.. I've tried it and it's a silly option.. Further, do you know how quick a mob dies camping a location with a group.. The 4th guy won't even be able to get a spell off before the mob is dead.. Then once you clear out that area, you cant' PULL mobs from a neighboring location because WoW has it set that mob lose agro.. So for a group to actually do what we used to in EQ1 is impossible..
I guess it just makes no sense to me. I've played a lot of grinding games and I dont think its as good as some of you may remember. We didnt grind because there was a plethora of quests in an MMO. We grinded because there were no quests. I"ve done my share of "WORTHY" quest in EQ1.. I dont' need to do chores over and over to level.. I think people need to revisit any dictionary and reaquaint themselves to the meaning of a quest.. Go out and collect 10 flowers is NOT a quest.. Go out and kill 10 rats is NOT a quest.. These are meaningless chores.. When my wife ask me to go collect 10 items at the grocery store, trust me.. I'm NOT on a quest.. I'm running errands and doing chores.. Now if I was to search for The Holy Grail" .. now that is a QUEST Adding quests to a game doesnt take away from the mobs your able to attack in an MMO world.
*edit* Ok so reading back up the last poster sort of cleared it up for me. We're actually talking about contested content and ya, modern games lack contested content. I believe both darkfall and mortal online offer contested content though.
I hope this clears things up on points of view If I could play WoW like I played EQ1 I would, but the game mechanics aren't there..
Well Daff.. best thing I can say to you is that MMO of old were more of a marathon race, not a sprint.. Having downtime to force people to meditate and regen their health, mana or stamina was just another mechanic to playing, no different then threat generation.. Mana regen was removed because too many people are just impatient = instant gratification crowd.. MMO combat of the past was more of "pacing" yourself then just zerg , chug a dring, zerg, chug a drink, zerg.. etc etc.. Too many players are just becoming lazy and impatient in my opinion.. Slow down, enjoy the ride.. you might miss the scenerary
I don't recall any marathons where the runners sit down every 1/4 mile for several minutes to do nothing.
You said forced downtime wasn't in the game to encourage socialization, so I'm curious what you think the forced no-play time was designed to accomplish? Certainly one doesn't need to spend 50% of their playtime sitting around just looking at the scenary of the camp they have already been sitting in for hours.
The fact that you enjoyed the sit in one spot and kill the same mob repeatedly for 8+ hours disgusts me.
Who mentioned "8 hours" besides you?
The ability to play slow has nothing to do with how long you play.
Chess is a pretty slow game too, where you can talk a lot, but you can play a match over multiple weeks by playing in 30 minutes sessions easy.
Btw, people never play for 8 hour sessions in WoW for example? I doubt that.
lol Theres a major difference between grinding 8 hours on the same mob and enjoying 8 hours of different dungeons or farming or questing or whatever.
Oh yeah and sorry about the disgust thing. I just wrote that badly out of very bad feelings toward that whole thing you enjoy.
Its that camp thing that disgusted me about the game.
I did enjoy the chats ya know, but the gameplay? I wished for death every day but my friends played it so, so did i. lol Dont get me wrong, i loved a lot of the aspects involved in the game, it was just the grind, the grind, f*** the grind, i hate you grind, die grind.
Im not talking about an "xp grind" im talking about a same camp endlessly, same mob for hours and hours and hours and days and months and yes years.
No.
And the grind was just the worst part, there was plenty other stuff that i couldnt stand. That game is the devil, cool aspects but... devil.
But if leveling takes a long time while the content is changing and involving enough then great.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief. Join me on TwitchFacebook Twitter
8 hours was definitely excessive as was horrible tendency with EQ (some of those times I wish I were more wiser not to have wasted so much time) but I do see sit-camp as viable gaming element still. As people have said it does encourage maybe being more social, and it does offer a different slant on the gameplay. For instance, you could easily have a sit-camp that is defending an outpost for maybe 45 minutes.
Well Daff.. best thing I can say to you is that MMO of old were more of a marathon race, not a sprint.. Having downtime to force people to meditate and regen their health, mana or stamina was just another mechanic to playing, no different then threat generation.. Mana regen was removed because too many people are just impatient = instant gratification crowd.. MMO combat of the past was more of "pacing" yourself then just zerg , chug a dring, zerg, chug a drink, zerg.. etc etc.. Too many players are just becoming lazy and impatient in my opinion.. Slow down, enjoy the ride.. you might miss the scenerary
I don't recall any marathons where the runners sit down every 1/4 mile for several minutes to do nothing. Same can be said that I never see a sprinter run the 100m dash, chug a drink, then sprint another 100m, then drink, then sprint, then drink.. Have you?
You said forced downtime wasn't in the game to encourage socialization, so I'm curious what you think the forced no-play time was designed to accomplish? Certainly one doesn't need to spend 50% of their playtime sitting around just looking at the scenary of the camp they have already been sitting in for hours. As I said, which you appearantly didnt' read, grasp or understand.. As I said, the 'group' had to learn to pace themself.. This is no different then in WoW if a Mage didnt' learn to pace his spells, he's going to go OOM and also gain agro.. As in almost all games, group combat is about pacing who, what and when.. I think we can agree on that.. Adding "mana and health" regen to that forumla is just another twist.. Just as most games pace themselves THROUGH the mob, regen makes you pace yourself from mob to mob..
Sorta like Nascar.. Sure you could go all out and sprint around the track setting speed times per lap.. However if you don't pace yourself, you burn the tires and lose traction which in the end just hurts you with an overal time and performace.. .. and using your words, " Certainly one doesnt' need to spend 50% of their playtime sitting around just looking at the scenary of a camp......... for hours".. Does this apply to WoW end game dungeons and raids.. How many hours did the average raider spend in ICC the past year? BTW.. when I played with friends in EQ1, we NEVER camped the same spot for hours.. You know, as a group you have the freedom to move within the zone you're in, or move to another.. Just because YOUR group chose to sit in one spot for "hours" isn't Sony's fault..
Marathons, Nascar, sprinting... ok I get it, you want to talk through loosely worded analogies and don't really have an answer. That works.
As for EQ players not camping spots for hours, I suspect you are the exception and not the norm. I didn't have a "group" as you seem to have, but ask anyone from any server what the term Camp Check means and I think you will get a picture of typical eq dungeoning experiences.
Great that your group broke the social norm of camping spawns and had the freedom to go where ever you desired in the shared dungeons of EQ. I think it is wonderful that you always seem to have avoided any of the issues that everyone else seems to have encountered. Grats to you.
I've never gotten into a group grind MMO before. I played Aion at release which was a solo grind affair at least for the most part and I didn't care much for it. Mind you I was playing a Templar (tank class) and solo grinding as a tank is painfully slow.
I'm not sure I see what the appeal is to forcing grouping and forcing downtime just to try to encourage socializing, but it sounds like there are plenty of games out there that still offer this gameplay style so perhaps it isn't the gameplay you miss so much as the memories.
The downtime wasn't to force "socializing".. that was a bi-prodict of the game mechanic, and a damn good one.. Such as EQ1 when you are required to have food and drink on your character that adds yet another thing to keep track of.. and a good thing too IMO.. Food and drink effect your ability to regen health, mana and stamina.. Even with food and drink you still have recovery time for health and mana to recoop.. There was no "instant" health and mana biscuits like WoW.. In EQ1 "OOM" actually meant something.. This gave the game yet aother role to plug into the group formula.. Can someone buff me mana regen? Welcome Enchanter In my opinion one of the best classes ever created for the "group" mmo experience..
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If downtime wasn't used to force socialization, then what was it designed for? Why was the forced downtime created then? What purpose did it serve?
I just do not see the benefit of having some mechanic and then only offering 1 way to nullify the negative affects of that mechanic. Well, two if you could put up with a bard, but that is a different story. To much forced gameplay in my opinion. Not enough of letting players make their own choices.
Mind you I played an enchanter in EQ and reaped the benefits of being a class in constant demand in a forced grouping game.
Just to weigh in on your question- increasing socialization was only a positive secondary aspect of the mechanic. My guess is it was used to artificially increase the time it took to level. The inconveniences that slowed leveling helped to expand the time content took to complete- not all gamers were in a hurry to get to cap then. It also did give more importance to classes other than just being tank, heals, or dps- buffing, debuffing, and CC were important roles that helped inspire interdependency of players. This again helped to develop the community as well as encourage players to play the role they desired rather than being shoehorned into the holy trinity.
Now, we get a child's version of these types of gameplay for players that have no patience, want to be rewarded for just logging in, and desire nothing more than a hack & slash game with a chat box.
I don't miss you camping an area with a group, most of the time it made my life less fun, particularly if there was something I needed to do there and the group wouldn't allow me to join them to complete it.
Now, we get a child's version of these types of gameplay for players that have no patience, want to be rewarded for just logging in, and desire nothing more than a hack & slash game with a chat box.
Indeed. What I don't get is why does everyone assume MMORPG has to be a single, unified genre? It's a game, and like any games, it should target a specific audience, and only that audience. If you aren't in one particular mmo's target audience, then you shouldn't be that interested in playing it anyway. Instead people have come to the conclusion that MMO's should target all audiences at once, which is silly.
There should be a place for the nintendo gamer crowd (aka players of insta-gratification insta-action cutesy games), and there should be a place for the old school enjoy-the-trip-not-the-destination crowd.
Luckily some game dev teams seem to have realized this in recent times, and have been trying to return to the old paradigm, to varying degrees of success. There are a few titles in the works for the old-school style even as we speak.
There's more than enough population for the oldschooler style to fill some servers and make some game dev shop successful, we just need someone to make it right.
As a side note, vanguard as a pve game of that nature is worth trying out, it's got great depth. Although the pvp stuff didnt work out at the time i played (on an openpvp server, mostly broken from what i recall because the npcs didnt respect the pvp factions and key quests sent you to silly enemy places and stuff).. I'm surprised the game didnt get more popular (leaving aside any SoE conspiracy theories), it was pretty great. Maybe I should try it again myself actually. hm.
There should be a place for the nintendo gamer crowd (aka players of insta-gratification insta-action cutesy games), and there should be a place for the old school enjoy-the-trip-not-the-destination crowd.
Stuff like this is why the 'old school' gamers get so little sympathy. They treat people who do not agree with their prefernces like brain dead idiots. Naturally they get no support from the people they insult. After you are exposed to this for a bit, you just feel like locking them up all in a room with a single Pong game and throwing away the key.
Originally posted by Torik Originally posted by randomt
There should be a place for the nintendo gamer crowd (aka players of insta-gratification insta-action cutesy games), and there should be a place for the old school enjoy-the-trip-not-the-destination crowd.
Stuff like this is why the 'old school' gamers get so little sympathy. They treat people who do not agree with their prefernces like brain dead idiots. Naturally they get no support from the people they insult. After you are exposed to this for a bit, you just feel like locking them up all in a room with a single Pong game and throwing away the key.
Eh, sorry, that wasn't mean in any way as a negative statement.. There's no insult, no treating anyone like a braindead idiot.. there's a statement of fact about 2 different genres of play style using common descriptions. There's the console gamer (aka the nintendo crowd), and there's the oldschool computer game player (aka games that were actually epic, not just console-style quick n dirty).
That's just the way it is, and there's no reason why both groups should be forced to play with each other in the same game.
You like to drive a race car, to get from A to B as fast as possible in order to enjoy whatever's at B, I like to walk and enjoy the scenery, taking my time.
The fact that you enjoyed the sit in one spot and kill the same mob repeatedly for 8+ hours disgusts me.
lol, that is what im saying recently i[object Window]ve been seeing threads talking about missing old horrid mechanics that made games atrocious but hey I fall into that category with Ultima Online and the PVP and looting it had during its time.
The fact that you enjoyed the sit in one spot and kill the same mob repeatedly for 8+ hours disgusts me.
lol, that is what im saying recently i[object Window]ve been seeing threads talking about missing old horrid mechanics that made games atrocious but hey I fall into that category with Ultima Online and the PVP and looting it had during its time.
While I'm glad camping is no longer the only viable method for gaining XP, I miss the socialization that was provided by those old school camp groups. You don't get that by constantly being on the move in modern MMO dungeons.
The last game I ever played that I can remember there being legitimate mob camping was EQ2 at launch. Once they changed the game to fit more of a WoW-oriented model and made all the overland mobs solo, that kinda went away.
There should be a place for the nintendo gamer crowd (aka players of insta-gratification insta-action cutesy games), and there should be a place for the old school enjoy-the-trip-not-the-destination crowd.
Stuff like this is why the 'old school' gamers get so little sympathy. They treat people who do not agree with their prefernces like brain dead idiots. Naturally they get no support from the people they insult. After you are exposed to this for a bit, you just feel like locking them up all in a room with a single Pong game and throwing away the key.
Eh, sorry, that wasn't mean in any way as a negative statement.. There's no insult, no treating anyone like a braindead idiot.. there's a statement of fact about 2 different genres of play style using common descriptions. There's the console gamer (aka the nintendo crowd), and there's the oldschool computer game player (aka games that were actually epic, not just console-style quick n dirty).
That's just the way it is, and there's no reason why both groups should be forced to play with each other in the same game.
You like to drive a race car, to get from A to B as fast as possible in order to enjoy whatever's at B, I like to walk and enjoy the scenery, taking my time.
Where's the insult in that? Tsk.
I agree with this and your previous post- although I can see the misunderstanding. It comes down to patience really, there are gamers that need to have a quick succession of accomplishments and no downtime or else the game is boring, then there are others that see those accomplishments that take time as being more worthwhile (to them). Not all games should target the entire array of gamers, and it is silly that they try.
I'm hesitant to use a simile because they all get ripped to shreds on this site, and I doubt this will receive any different treatment, but what we currently have are companies that, if it were in the form of movies- are only kicking out action flicks and telling the viewers No, this has everything- the main character nailed some girl- there's your romance. And, there was a full 30 minutes between explosions, that's suspense!
I do have faith that there will eventually be a game for those of us with patience, however as has been stated by other posters it will likely be a small, independent developer/publisher. I'm fine with that as long as they put the necessary time and testing into it. To go back to the movie thing, it's okay to have direct to DVD movies as long as it winds up being one you enjoy.
There should be a place for the nintendo gamer crowd (aka players of insta-gratification insta-action cutesy games), and there should be a place for the old school enjoy-the-trip-not-the-destination crowd.
Stuff like this is why the 'old school' gamers get so little sympathy. They treat people who do not agree with their prefernces like brain dead idiots. Naturally they get no support from the people they insult. After you are exposed to this for a bit, you just feel like locking them up all in a room with a single Pong game and throwing away the key.
Eh, sorry, that wasn't mean in any way as a negative statement.. There's no insult, no treating anyone like a braindead idiot.. there's a statement of fact about 2 different genres of play style using common descriptions. There's the console gamer (aka the nintendo crowd), and there's the oldschool computer game player (aka games that were actually epic, not just console-style quick n dirty).
That's just the way it is, and there's no reason why both groups should be forced to play with each other in the same game.
You like to drive a race car, to get from A to B as fast as possible in order to enjoy whatever's at B, I like to walk and enjoy the scenery, taking my time.
Where's the insult in that? Tsk.
The insult comes from the false dichtonomy of you dividing the playerbase into the 'insta-gratification' and 'old school' groups. Since I do not like the 'old school' mechanics you lump me into the 'insta-gratification', 'no-brainer' game crowd which is insulting. It would be like me dividing the playerbase into 'new school' players and 'masochistic no-lifers'.
In fact I consider myself a enjoy-the-trip-not-the-destination player who considers the 'old school' design to be a way to make the trip not enjoyable.
3 orcs should be able to tear apart a lone ranger. A pack of wolves should be a danger to a warrior and cleric trying to duo out on their own. A group of 5 should really have someone there who can keep the 12 banshees that some noob just idiot-pulled at bay so they can work out a strategy to survive.
Those days are gone. GONE GONE GONE......
Now my well specced Nuker Healer can walk into a cave filled to the brim with Satan's Bubbling Seedlings, kill them all, then bitch that the xp was bad and they only got 1,020,102 gold pieces.
I don't really care for the old way of doing it, nor do I care for the modern interpretation of (it's only difficult in an instance). Developers need to start thinking and stop copying. What we need is innovation and a thought process that people will pay to be challenged.
I agree with this and your previous post- although I can see the misunderstanding. It comes down to patience really, there are gamers that need to have a quick succession of accomplishments and no downtime or else the game is boring, then there are others that see those accomplishments that take time as being more worthwhile (to them). Not all games should target the entire array of gamers, and it is silly that they try.
The misunderstanding is actually in the other part of the issue that you are overlooking. I am one of the people who likes long-time accomplishments as more worthwhile but I simply do not consider leveling through 'camp grinding' as an 'accomplishment' or 'worthwhile'.
Comments
Well I don't know about EQ but as far as DAoC is concerned I think some people are overstating the 'every pull was different' angle. Occasionally a pull would go badly and provide a bit of excitement but on the whole camping was very repetitive in my experience.
As far as the reasoning behind downtime goes I think it was simply a translation of how spells had traditionally been memorized and used in the RPG genre. In earlier forms of RPG spells were often very powerful but they were also a scarce resource. You had to use your spells points sparingly and wisely because once cast it took several hours of rest to recharge them. For obvious reasons that format was not ideal for a real-time game so the early MMOs greatly increased the rate at which spell points could be recovered but not so much that the idea of spells as a scarce resource was completely abandoned.
Way off topic now but the price casters now pay for low downtimes is that their nukes are little more than brightly coloured arrows.
I disagree that group mechanics were why MMOs weren't more popular. It had more to do with the fact that only people in I.T., college or the military even knew they existed. Or maybe it was the prohibitive cost of a new system capable of running a new 3D game.
I can understand people not liking and not wanting to be forced to group grind, which is precisely why I can't figure out why those same people can't understand that some of us don't want to quest all day long.
Bring back some group grind spots. MMOs haven't allowed it in the last 6 years aside from some smaller titles. It's time for options.
You do have options, those smaller titles are the options. If you and others don't play them, how do we expect investors and developers to believe that that method of gameplay is a viable option?
Venge Sunsoar
Well said, and I personally do play indie titles, but why is it that when anyone suggests that a AAA MMO should provide the OPTION of 'camping' so many people get bent out of shape? Keep the quests, keep the solo content, keep the scripted dungeons. Why not ADD camping and open dungeons too?
Its really confusing when people say they want a game like the good old days of EQ1 of grinding mobs and claim they cant do that in our modern MMO's.
There arent any mechanics that need to be introduced to any of these games to allow you to go out and farm mobs and pick up no quests. Feel free to do so. Pick a spot with mobs and kill them repeatedly. Better than "kill 10 rats and return it for your reward"?
I guess it just makes no sense to me. I've played a lot of grinding games and I dont think its as good as some of you may remember. We didnt grind because there was a plethora of quests in an MMO. We grinded because there were no quests. Adding quests to a game doesnt take away from the mobs your able to attack in an MMO world.
*edit* Ok so reading back up the last poster sort of cleared it up for me. We're actually talking about contested content and ya, modern games lack contested content. I believe both darkfall and mortal online offer contested content though.
I am quite frankly surprised that none of these developers have provided rule-based sets of servers with their games in order to provide variety. Other than PvP or PvE servers, they haven't gone any further.
One day these guys are going to realize that it would be smart to offer other choices at launch, like a hardcore server with heavy death penalties and tougher mobs. Or alternative servers that give much less exp for quests and give much more exp for killing group mobs in the camp areas. They could even consider making an elite server that is only available for players who maxed out the same class of character in the regular servers. I am sure they can come up with all kinds of ideas. It would take a little more effort to maintain the servers, but I think the population would appreciate it.
You do a great job here of painting the picture of why those old camp groups were fun. I remember how the mana was very hard to manage and if you didn't run into town and buy a C3 ahead of time you wouldn't be able to spam spells like the mages of today can. I think its comical that they even give staffs to mages to use, there is no need or time to strike an enemy with it because you have plenty of mana to spam spells the whole time.
Stat-Sticks
I hope this clears things up on points of view
If I could play WoW like I played EQ1 I would, but the game mechanics aren't there..
I don't recall any marathons where the runners sit down every 1/4 mile for several minutes to do nothing.
You said forced downtime wasn't in the game to encourage socialization, so I'm curious what you think the forced no-play time was designed to accomplish? Certainly one doesn't need to spend 50% of their playtime sitting around just looking at the scenary of the camp they have already been sitting in for hours.
lol Theres a major difference between grinding 8 hours on the same mob and enjoying 8 hours of different dungeons or farming or questing or whatever.
Oh yeah and sorry about the disgust thing. I just wrote that badly out of very bad feelings toward that whole thing you enjoy.
Its that camp thing that disgusted me about the game.
I did enjoy the chats ya know, but the gameplay? I wished for death every day but my friends played it so, so did i. lol Dont get me wrong, i loved a lot of the aspects involved in the game, it was just the grind, the grind, f*** the grind, i hate you grind, die grind.
Im not talking about an "xp grind" im talking about a same camp endlessly, same mob for hours and hours and hours and days and months and yes years.
No.
And the grind was just the worst part, there was plenty other stuff that i couldnt stand. That game is the devil, cool aspects but... devil.
But if leveling takes a long time while the content is changing and involving enough then great.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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8 hours was definitely excessive as was horrible tendency with EQ (some of those times I wish I were more wiser not to have wasted so much time) but I do see sit-camp as viable gaming element still. As people have said it does encourage maybe being more social, and it does offer a different slant on the gameplay. For instance, you could easily have a sit-camp that is defending an outpost for maybe 45 minutes.
Marathons, Nascar, sprinting... ok I get it, you want to talk through loosely worded analogies and don't really have an answer. That works.
As for EQ players not camping spots for hours, I suspect you are the exception and not the norm. I didn't have a "group" as you seem to have, but ask anyone from any server what the term Camp Check means and I think you will get a picture of typical eq dungeoning experiences.
Great that your group broke the social norm of camping spawns and had the freedom to go where ever you desired in the shared dungeons of EQ. I think it is wonderful that you always seem to have avoided any of the issues that everyone else seems to have encountered. Grats to you.
Just to weigh in on your question- increasing socialization was only a positive secondary aspect of the mechanic. My guess is it was used to artificially increase the time it took to level. The inconveniences that slowed leveling helped to expand the time content took to complete- not all gamers were in a hurry to get to cap then. It also did give more importance to classes other than just being tank, heals, or dps- buffing, debuffing, and CC were important roles that helped inspire interdependency of players. This again helped to develop the community as well as encourage players to play the role they desired rather than being shoehorned into the holy trinity.
Now, we get a child's version of these types of gameplay for players that have no patience, want to be rewarded for just logging in, and desire nothing more than a hack & slash game with a chat box.
Edit: fixed spelling
I don't miss you camping an area with a group, most of the time it made my life less fun, particularly if there was something I needed to do there and the group wouldn't allow me to join them to complete it.
Indeed. What I don't get is why does everyone assume MMORPG has to be a single, unified genre? It's a game, and like any games, it should target a specific audience, and only that audience. If you aren't in one particular mmo's target audience, then you shouldn't be that interested in playing it anyway. Instead people have come to the conclusion that MMO's should target all audiences at once, which is silly.
There should be a place for the nintendo gamer crowd (aka players of insta-gratification insta-action cutesy games), and there should be a place for the old school enjoy-the-trip-not-the-destination crowd.
Luckily some game dev teams seem to have realized this in recent times, and have been trying to return to the old paradigm, to varying degrees of success. There are a few titles in the works for the old-school style even as we speak.
There's more than enough population for the oldschooler style to fill some servers and make some game dev shop successful, we just need someone to make it right.
As a side note, vanguard as a pve game of that nature is worth trying out, it's got great depth. Although the pvp stuff didnt work out at the time i played (on an openpvp server, mostly broken from what i recall because the npcs didnt respect the pvp factions and key quests sent you to silly enemy places and stuff).. I'm surprised the game didnt get more popular (leaving aside any SoE conspiracy theories), it was pretty great. Maybe I should try it again myself actually. hm.
Stuff like this is why the 'old school' gamers get so little sympathy. They treat people who do not agree with their prefernces like brain dead idiots. Naturally they get no support from the people they insult. After you are exposed to this for a bit, you just feel like locking them up all in a room with a single Pong game and throwing away the key.
Eh, sorry, that wasn't mean in any way as a negative statement.. There's no insult, no treating anyone like a braindead idiot.. there's a statement of fact about 2 different genres of play style using common descriptions. There's the console gamer (aka the nintendo crowd), and there's the oldschool computer game player (aka games that were actually epic, not just console-style quick n dirty).
That's just the way it is, and there's no reason why both groups should be forced to play with each other in the same game.
You like to drive a race car, to get from A to B as fast as possible in order to enjoy whatever's at B, I like to walk and enjoy the scenery, taking my time.
Where's the insult in that? Tsk.
lol, that is what im saying recently i[object Window]ve been seeing threads talking about missing old horrid mechanics that made games atrocious but hey I fall into that category with Ultima Online and the PVP and looting it had during its time.
While I'm glad camping is no longer the only viable method for gaining XP, I miss the socialization that was provided by those old school camp groups. You don't get that by constantly being on the move in modern MMO dungeons.
The last game I ever played that I can remember there being legitimate mob camping was EQ2 at launch. Once they changed the game to fit more of a WoW-oriented model and made all the overland mobs solo, that kinda went away.
I agree with this and your previous post- although I can see the misunderstanding. It comes down to patience really, there are gamers that need to have a quick succession of accomplishments and no downtime or else the game is boring, then there are others that see those accomplishments that take time as being more worthwhile (to them). Not all games should target the entire array of gamers, and it is silly that they try.
I'm hesitant to use a simile because they all get ripped to shreds on this site, and I doubt this will receive any different treatment, but what we currently have are companies that, if it were in the form of movies- are only kicking out action flicks and telling the viewers No, this has everything- the main character nailed some girl- there's your romance. And, there was a full 30 minutes between explosions, that's suspense!
I do have faith that there will eventually be a game for those of us with patience, however as has been stated by other posters it will likely be a small, independent developer/publisher. I'm fine with that as long as they put the necessary time and testing into it. To go back to the movie thing, it's okay to have direct to DVD movies as long as it winds up being one you enjoy.
The insult comes from the false dichtonomy of you dividing the playerbase into the 'insta-gratification' and 'old school' groups. Since I do not like the 'old school' mechanics you lump me into the 'insta-gratification', 'no-brainer' game crowd which is insulting. It would be like me dividing the playerbase into 'new school' players and 'masochistic no-lifers'.
In fact I consider myself a enjoy-the-trip-not-the-destination player who considers the 'old school' design to be a way to make the trip not enjoyable.
Crowd control needs to come back in a big way.
3 orcs should be able to tear apart a lone ranger. A pack of wolves should be a danger to a warrior and cleric trying to duo out on their own. A group of 5 should really have someone there who can keep the 12 banshees that some noob just idiot-pulled at bay so they can work out a strategy to survive.
Those days are gone. GONE GONE GONE......
Now my well specced Nuker Healer can walk into a cave filled to the brim with Satan's Bubbling Seedlings, kill them all, then bitch that the xp was bad and they only got 1,020,102 gold pieces.
I don't really care for the old way of doing it, nor do I care for the modern interpretation of (it's only difficult in an instance). Developers need to start thinking and stop copying. What we need is innovation and a thought process that people will pay to be challenged.
The misunderstanding is actually in the other part of the issue that you are overlooking. I am one of the people who likes long-time accomplishments as more worthwhile but I simply do not consider leveling through 'camp grinding' as an 'accomplishment' or 'worthwhile'.