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General: Something Old, Something New
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
MMO players can be a fickle lot at times, both clamoring for innovation yet simultaneously running as fast as possible back to what's known and comfortable. It is this curious paradox that MMORPG.com's Bill Murphy ponders in his latest column and that leads him to create a list of ways he plans to combat his own paradoxical behavior. Check it out and see if you agree. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below.
As I watch these forums daily, and as I see so many games come and go, I begin to wonder: do we really want something new, or do we just want what was once new to be new again?
Read more of Bill Murphy's Something Old, Something New.
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Comments
Here here! Bill says EXACTLY what is on my mind!
Too many "I played for 5 minutes, this game Suxxors!" and "You suck cause you don't like my game".
People's opinions aren't any more or less valid but some people for whatever reason think people give a @*!&$ what they think.
Why no ones satisfied In my opinion (which is usually considered wrong) I think we need age group category's when it comes to games.
Some mmo's need to be made for little kids, 10 and under. Some for 10 to 18. And another for adults 18 and up.
I'm not saying a 13 year old cant play the adult game but at least he knows what lvl of play he's getting into.
An adult mmo should have MORE difficulty. I shouldn't be able to KNOW that when i attack a creature my own lvl that there is no way i can be killed, it should be hard. Crafting should be a challenge, no real ideas of how but maybe with crafting failing more times than not or just having the materials hard to come by. These two things alone would create a more social game, meeting people for help leveling and trading materials.
Before anyone says 'there are adult mmo's" i'm referring to difficulty. And just because some games flash a virtual titty once in a while doesnt make it any more challenging to play.
10 to 18 can keep on with what they have out now, the handholding and questmarkers showing exactly where everything is. (remember i said earlier in my post if they want to play the rated higher game that is their option).
The problem is mmo's try to please all ages. I dont get the same enjoyment from watching movies my kids like. Companys need to stop trying to dominate the entire market and start market toward different player skill levels.I dont think it's a matter of 'old schoolers' want their old games new again, its more a matter of wanting the same challenges and enjoyment from meeting those challenges that people want.
I think a good many people want what is now old to be new again.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I like the overall positive energy of your article, but the points of:
"I will remember that different is good, even if done badly, because at least it’s an attempt.
I will also remember that different doesn’t excuse poor design. If something stinks, I will not be afraid to say so."
Might tend to walk a fine line...as guessing if something was purely design fault or just poor development-time decisions is harder & harder as games become more complex
.
Overall I want things (even old) to be made interesting, they don't need to be different with high risk
but in the end that may just be semantics.
Descent article though.
Good points to remember.
Well using the 3 examples...sci fi,i doubt there is many sci fi sitting around waiting to play a gamethat are not really playing one.I thik the die hards are all waiting for SWTOR.
Rift...offers ONLY RIFTS,the rest is same old,is that worthy of praise or subscription?not in my books.
DCUO..biggest flaw is it is designed to attract younger/comic book type kids,who are into the super hero thing.Also there is a ton of action type games out there,if you want to crack that market it had better be real good,for example quit with the cheap static background buildings,it shows the effort was average at best.Basically it shows ,get the game done and get it out attitude,when you don't put the effort into all parts of the playable maps.
I think what is really ruining our chances of a good quality effort,is the cost of developing a game right now,it is staggering.I look at my fave MMORPG FFXIa game that really wasn't pushed to the max becauseof console limitations and it stil ltook Sqaure 5 years to break EVEN,let alone any profit.I think this is why we are seeing so many half ass efforts now,the RISK of high cost and MAYBE a profit are too great right now,even producers are being fired.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Part of he reason we remember older games so fondly is that they were somewhat revolutionary for what they did. Players want new games to take the next step up and offer a similar revolutionary experience, but revolutionary experience is difficult with similar mechanics.
Nice use of bullet points
* I read most of what Jon Wood writes
* He needs more bullet points though
I think that part of the problem is that the MMO market isn't really as big as the game developers and publishers think it is. You may think that's an odd thing to say, so I'll explain:
MMO's were a niche market. When EQ hit 750k subs it was BIG news. DAOC, AC and a few others were doing reasonably well at this time. Other games like E&B didn't get a chance and were killed off. Then in late 2004 we were hit over the head with the freak of nature, WoW.
Suddenly there were 9 million people playing an MMO and the guys looking at the bottom line started to drool. Now we see a lot of new games being developed and released following a similar model to WoW, theme parks, lots of quests etc.
The problem is, in my opinion, that the MMO market is still niche, and then there's the WoW market, which is completely different. I would guess that maybe 80% of WoW players had never played an MMO before WoW was released. They look at these new games, compare it to WoW and decide there's not much different and go back to playing WoW where their friends are.
I honestly believe this to be true, and I don't think the MMO developers realise that the market's not as big as they think it is. Now I'm not a WoW fan. I have played it but not any more, but I think it's going to take something very special to achieve the success that WoW has seen.
Food for thought.
i am humbled. its like reading the original commandments before moses busted them up and made up his own.
I will withhold judgment on any game until I play it myself.
Kinda no brainer for me. We have to be flexible, willing to change our opinion. At least thats the ideal. Reality is, most people I ever met clung to their first opinion as if their life depended on. On the other hand, me being flexible always got endless scorn from people "hey you changed your opinion!" because I saw new facts. Can't make it right for fools, I say. So these days I judge, and eat or die, I don't care what others think. Period.
I will not begrudge anyone their personal tastes because they don’t meet my own.
Good rule. Alas, 90% are unable to do that. I don't bear grudges to humans. That's like bearing a grudge to an insect or an automaton. It follows it's program. *shrug*
I will remember that different is good, even if done badly, because at least it’s an attempt.
You know the saying, the road to hell is paved with good attempts. It's what mothers plague their kids for eons: "I only meant it for your own good." We have dozens of good attempting MMOs the last 4 years, thank you very much. I can value the effort in private life, but when I have to pay for something "good try" isn't good enough when there are amateurs everywhere!
I will also remember that different doesn’t excuse poor design. If something stinks, I will not be afraid to say so.
Preaching to the choir here. Alas honesty makes lonely. Not that I care; most humans aren't worth the company and honesty is mostly the better companion than good weather "friends".
I will remember, once again, that what “stinks” is always subjective.
*Shrug* So what?
I will make my decision on a game and I will let it lie, not to harass those who enjoy it.
They harrass me, so I harras back. They don't give me a quarter and they shall receive none. Fair deal to me.
Basically, I will try my best to play and let play because there’s about to be plenty of choices out there.
My saying, man! If only they LET ME. Which if course they don't.
Saying "sorry for the acidic comments" would be a polite lie. Being around MMORPG gamers has surely proven to be the fastest way to be entirely disillusioned about humans in every single capacity, be it honesty, politeness, the ability to cooperate, fairness... take any quality a human should have, put a human in a MMO environment (forums included) and it will make a culprit in 9 out of 10 cases because anonymity will breed assholes. The best one can hope in a MMO these days is, that the next person is neutral towards you. Try that wondeful dungeon browser from WOW. 80% of all people I met there left without ANY WORD the moment THEY had what they wanted. Why? They are from some other of the many WOW servers and the chance you see him again is zilch. Not asking for hugs, but the number of hate replies here I got is enough to justify the payment for an entire PLETHORA of therapists.
So thanks for that, everyone here.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I like the op's rules. I have about the same rule set and It does not take me long to figure out if I give a game the thumbs down. We have hundreds of games on this site. I have never posted ina games forum area without having played it, as it is not fair for me to have thoughts one way or another if I have never put time into that game.
If I like a game I say so, however I don't personally attack the fan boys who play that game. If they love it that is a great thing. However boy howdy if I kick the tires on a game and don't like it and share my thoughts the fan boy is like you suxor because this game is great. What is great for one is not great for all.
Now to the part of wanting what was old to be new again. I have one on my list. I know folks are going to yell and stomp, and I will get cussed out and reported, but old game wanting it to be new again would be SWG pre NGE, even pre-cu.
Enough said.
Question for you: Have you been in or are you currently in the Rifts beta? It's not ONLY rifts that it offers. The Ascended Soul system is another great thing the game deserves credit for. It may not be revolutionary as other games have had a multi-tree skill system before, but they have done it -right-, as well as making engaging storylines, extremely fun, and often times challenging, open world PvP, AND a fairly good arena PvP system with Warfronts (which they are continually tweaking to make better). I don't mean to be rude, but it certainly sounds like you're breaking the very first rule that Bill brings up.
I think that Travamars makes a good point as well. We already have differentiation for age groups, but having a developer TELL us who the game is meant for might help situations immensely. I mean, I've had an absolute blast running around in Free Realms, playing different mini-games and whatnot, but it's extremely casual and targeted at a young crowd. Other games like CO come to mind as games that were unsure of what age group they were going for while games like DCUO (to stay in the same niche for comparison) were much more sure of their target audience and seem to have done better through that narrower focus.
Finally, jmcdermottuk makes the incredibly good point that WoW has changed the MMO market, not just in player numbers, but in the way developers and publishers look at the way they're doing business in the genre. However, the point that it's still a niche market doesn't stand up so well in my opinion. WoW opened the door, yes, and it ruined certain aspects of the games we love, yes, but currently MMORPG.com alone has ~1.3 million members, and I know plenty of people who use other sites (Ten Ton, Gama, GameInformer, etc) as their main stay for gaming news. Granted, this site is specialized, but everyone has habits of going to specific places on the sites they go to because they've come to trust it. I really think the population of MMO players has drastically expanded. Now we just need to get the dev/publisher to stop trying to take down WoW. WoW will eventually take itself down. It's only a matter of time before the weight of it all comes crashing down (see: Cataclysm, an expansion which effectively revamped a large chunk of the game, which most players say was needed, adding a minimal amount of new content in the process).
I don't believe that the MMO'ers are being fickle. People wouldn't be raging on the new stuff that didnt work if these guys would release these games with the traditional stuff working. My personal opinion take it for what it's worth or with a grain of salt ; is that these last few years of MMO's released almost all the games have been betas that people have bought and paid monthly fees to test for these companies.
So to sum up ; I don't expect the new stuff to work exactly perfect but would like to see the old stuff work really darn well. To the eastern game makers you give the east patch 1.0, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5 and the west gets 1.0 deals with all the bugs with no fixes till they get 1.5. Want the west to quit bitchin give us bug fix patches dont let the game go with the bugs and only give us the 1 patch every 6 months.
I have been playing games since the 1950s, a former low A rated Chess player and #63 in the world of play by mail Diplomacy in the 1970s, so I think I know a little about games. I obtained high speed internet fove years ago and during this time have played 3 games. Bounty Bay Online, Dungeons and Dragoons Online and AstroEmpires. All three were great games, well done with the potential for a lot of fun, unfortunately all three were ruined by their players who acted like anal orifices from the Kiddie Klown Klub. I played BBO for three years. The first two years were P2P then they changed to F2P and the KKK moved in apparently with the sole objective of ruining the game for everyone else. In my case they succeed and after nearly a year of putting up with their bovine scatology I quit and went to DDO and found the Kiddies were already there. I then went to AE and not only found the Kiddies but rampant cheating in the form of scripts connected to offline data base companies, multiple accounts using an IP switcher, one to play 2 or 3 to farm, or just to occupy an astro in the enemies regions to deprive them of a good base locations. Unfortunately it's management is in denial about their problems and I succeed in being banned from their forum for telling the guy who runs it, his claim there wa little or no cheating was bovine scatology.
I GIVE UP. I play games for fun and internet games just are not fun, three great games well thought out and designed made unplayable by their players. Since most games draw upon the same demographic I expect I would run into the same problems no matter what game I try to play, I am drooping internet access and going back to stand alone games where if I find an anal orifice It’s me.
I completely agree.
A friend of mine sent me an e-mail last week that he is now "hooked'.
Apparently he remembered those years I played Lineage 2. Those years I spent a lot of time in game.
For whatever reason he decided to try "World of Warcraft". It could be because we would sit around playing Warcraft 1 and Warcraft II and had a great time. So he finally decided to see what it was about.
In any case, he's "hooked".
But he knows nothing of any other mmo's and I'm inclined to think that he probably doesn't care. he's having fun and that is what matters.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Interesting points, all of them! I've never seen the argument for WoW's success made in quite that way, before.
Though, for clarity's sake, WoW didn't just bring outsiders in. I saw so many players... so many guilds pack up and leave SWG for WoW faster than I could bullseye a womprat, and they never returned. It took a huge crowd of mainstream gamers, but it took alot of MMO'ers as well. It could be that those players ALSO weren't really part of the MMO niche... that they just played games they weren't that big on for the sake of the multiplayer interaction.
But yeah... for a while there, it seemed that developers saw WoW as the rule, rather than the exception that it certainly was. "if we just do what they do but with better gfx, we can have a big slice of that pie". But WoW is a game that has years and years of crack-like content in it. For the most part, Xpacs have kept the game just fresh enough for most players, and their starter experience is getting better. I don't see their numbers slipping much if at all over the next year or so.
I glad you mention that we should appreciate something different even if it isn't good.
So logically;
We should shun RIFT because it does the same ol' thing, but ya know 'okay-ish'.
RUE IT! RUE I SAY!
Lots of excellent points all around in this thread. I must admit I am one of those guys who look back at the old days. My first MMO was EQ, but I never passed level 30 before moving on to my great love, DAoC where I logged up to 55 hours a week for way too many years.
I have never played WoW, so I will not go into that aside from agreeing that it is an anomaly. Unfortunately, it caught the attention and made MMOs the thing to make. To make it even worse, most designers seem unable to figure out how to make a game fun. Today it seems to be all about non-stop action and awesome graphics, and less about building communities. The communities was what made the old games awesome. I knew people how logged on just to chat in guild chat, and during downtime between fights I got to know my group members. With the non-stop action of recent MMOs, going afk is almost a sin because you slow down the group.
Games used to be about having fun. Now they seem anything but. Some even feel like a second job.
I will make my decision on a game and I will let it lie, not to harass those who enjoy it.
Some people take gaming far too seriously and actively pursue vendetta's against games and companies they believe have wronged them. It reminds me of religion but instead of Catholics and Muslims its Blizzard and SOE/Turbine/etc fanatics fighting a never ending war (virtually).
So what you are really saying Mr Murphy is Rifts sucks but that's OK.
I KEED I KEED STOP BASHING IN YOUR KEYBOARD WITH YOUR FACE!!
Good post with some excellent observations, and some words of wisdom. Of course words of wisdom from the speakers perspective often are. Its not until they reach the ears (in this case eyes) of the listiner that they become entangled in the subjective web of other individuals words and spawn the three headed, mutant hellbeasts of discord. Welcome to reality.
Two things:
You describe DCUO as not for the masses. Really? Does that mean its made just for a few elitist snobs who have the brain power to see its true worth? Calm down, because I'm sure that ISN'T what you meant, I'm just pointing out how much another persons interpretation can change the meaning of someones words. The reason I'm making this observation is because I feel both yourself and many others here have taken a stance lately that anyone with a negetive opinion of a game is an uninformed troll, whose opinions can be immediatly discounted as unimportant. Go back through your last few editorials, especially the ones about poster behavior and see if I don't have a point.
Of late posters on many web blogs seem to bandy the word subjective about as if it were the end all be all argument stopper. Sorry to tell you this, but opinions by their very nature are subjective. Without subjectivity we would get Film reviews that read thusly:
"The film was titled Fight Club, the plot of the film centered around a fight club and the people involved. It contained the actors Brad Pitt, Edward Norton, Helena Bonham Carter, and Meatloaf among others. The film was 139 minutes long. The Theater was dark.
Too wow, how exciting.
You see, if peoples viewpoints weren't subjective, we wouldn't have a damn thing to talk about. So when people discount another pesons point of view by saying "Well that's subjective" what they are usually saying is "I refuse to serioulsy consider your opinion could have as much weight as mine". In other words they are being a bit "Subjectiver" than thou. Which frankly defeats the purpose of having a rational discussion in the first place. And seriously defeats the purpose of sites such as these if all people want to hear is the undiluted (or as some of you out there seem to feel, UNPOLLUTED) noise in their own heads.
So where am I going with this? Well you bring up the point about what people want in an MMO. I think the one thing everyone can agree they want is to be entertained. They all want fun. Unfortunatly what constitutes fun for an individual is, as we've said before, subjective. So when many thousands of individuals are involved in the same activity there is going to be a bit of a rumble. The best we can do is add our own thoughts to the fray or say to hell with it and go fishing instead. The worst thing we can do, is to discount the feelings of others as uninformed, or unimportant.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Good points made. I usualy play a game for a bit longer than most to see if I'm missing something..and to get into the game. Played/playing Rift beta and initialy I thought meh, this is not going anywhere and many many hours later , wayyy past bedtime I was finishing just one more quest. It also has a great support community which imho makes a game alot more appealing. Glad I didn't drop it before finding out what the game had to offer....and still have a bunch I don't know about yet yet.
Like many I still want the thrill I felt playing an early D&D on paper or muds or whatever that early experience was... which is near impossible to find any more but I still enjoy gaming...and still hoping for a game that quickly says 'I am the one' . You know, that game, the one you can't wait to get back to and spend wayyy to much time playing.
Game reviews done by "professionals" are generally bland and cover the obvious. When you want the truth about a game the forums are the place to search. Of course "player" reviews are full of bias, but they are also full of something else you won't find on the front page- PASSION.
For instance, two days ago I was sifting through the rift forums when I stumbled across a thread entitled "I'm Sold." Reading about the user's elation and delight while playing his new favorite game jarred my memory- "Hey, I forgot about that beta key I used last week." Someone else's fanatacism was motivation enough for me to give the game a try.
Is my review of said title less valid because it took me 5 minutes to figure out what it might take others hours or days? Following a company's PR buzzwords and approved talking points is what I expect from big name reviewers, as it's their job to worry about who they piss off. I shared my thoughts on the topic, and will be content to let them fade into the darkness. Excellent material Bill, quite relevant- and great feedback from everyone above. My favorite comments were jmcdermottuk, Elikal, and Tardcore.
Thank you, Bill.
Sure we want the old stuff to be new, that is human nature. The issue is we *are* getting the old stuff with new flavor. But we are full of it and it does not taste as good as the natural taste after you chew it a while anyway. We do not lack MMOs, we do not even lack fun MMOs, we lack choice of MMOs to stick with.
How many games tried EvE in fantasy or EvE for kids or EvE with storyline? How many games are inspired by GW, be it sales method, class mechanics or levelling? Is it really players you dare to blame for this?
It is all WoW in new coat but without the meticulous WoW ballancing, careful social engineering, robust network code and high budget that can afford to to invest in beyond the scenes features. WoW same as Startcraft is about *perfection* and doing clones of clones without the defining characteristic gets old and pointless and feels like cheating.
Well, "He's having fun and that is what matters." The truth slips out!!! Fun IS what matters. And that (fun) is absolutely subjective.
This is my objective opinion. /LOL
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin