Originally posted by Hurvart Originally posted by JohnnyMotrin
Originally posted by Timukas
Originally posted by Xasapis Yes, healing or buffing a flagged person flags you as well. Any other way would have been easily exploitable. I think the moaning is because people can kill the opposing NPCs in some areas. When this happens you either have to flag yourself and help, or wait for the 2-3 minutes it takes for the NPCs to respawn.
Think you get flagged for PvP for 5 minutes if you heal/buff a flagged player. Do not mind PvP folks killing my NPCs because that only adds spice to the game. In one beta I parked my toon in a safe spot. At least I thought so. And when I logged in I was in middle of higher level invasion killing all NPCs, me and several others. And that was fun. Same goes for PvP flagged players, I just take them as an invasion. Difference with PvP servers is that there you can conquer territories of the opposing faction.
As I'm reading the various posts in this thread, a major point is being left out of the convo. The BIG problem people are having on the PvE servers are that groups of higher level players are camping at NPC quest hubs for hours at a time killing the NPC's every time they spawn. These groups are making it impossible for people to get quests and turn them in. To add to this, by default everyone is flagged for PvP so unless you were aware, these gankers probably ran a train on your behind once or twice. Not only that, repairing your soul can get quite expensive.
PvE'ers don't mind if someone else wants to PvP as long as it doesn't effect their game play... that is the reason for having PvE servers isn't it??? They could give quest npc:s 50 million hp and make them impossible to kill. That would fix that problem and there would be no need to change any rules or mechanics. I agree that you should be able to do your quests without the quest npc getting farmed and killed. I do alot of pvp myself. But killing quest npc:s is not pvp... Its just silly. There should be other ways to get good (real)pvp fights. And on a PvE server players that wants to PvE should not be interrupted and hindered by something like that. I mean it will hurt the game if people that log in to do some quests cant because the quest giving npc:s are dead. This is not even OK on PvP servers...you should be able to kill the players everywhere but there is no reason you should be able to kill quest-npc:s... Being able to kill the players trying to do the quests is enough... Killing quest npc:s is not PvP.
You're not getting it...
It is PvP, matter of fact Forced PvP because that's the only way you're going to get them to leave and thus get your NPC's/Quest hubs back.
IM sorry but from my experience the Pve raider loot whores are the children in MMOs.
Sure you get certain loud mouth asshats on the pvp side but the progressive pve kiddies are really annoying with that im better than you shit because they can play 10-15 hours aday off mommies and daddy's dime.
I've never had a pvper inspect my character and belittle me for a uncommon spec or a low gear score.
I disagree.
As another poster mentionned, most high end guilds are not spending much time trolling forums. If they end up playing a weak class (or a class that doesn't really work well in PVE), they reroll or they just try to make the best use of it. The same goes with high end pvp players.
Though in my opinion, when there is competition follows asshateries. PvP is driven by competition. PvE has competition, but it's not its main driver. This would explain such a big difference in attitude in global chat between, for example, Tyranny/NA and Wiccana/NA in Age of Conan.
But when it comes to who's complaining the most, look at this reactionary thread about World of Warcraft's latest patch. The main concern out there is 'I'll get insta-gibbed while other classes are playing easy mode', or 'I'll lose my raid spot because they are nerfing me!'. In my eyes both PVEers and PVPers are complaining loudly and equally.
They could give quest npc:s 50 million hp and make them impossible to kill.
They could not really do that as quest npcs need to be easy to kill so Rift Invaders can kill them and take over hubs. Quest hubs seem to be balanced where the quest npcs will always lose to non elite Rift Invaders if no player is there to help. The only real option I can think of short of banning griefers would be to make them green to both factions on PvE servers.
There are several ways to fix that problem without making it impossible for Rift invaders to kill them.
1. If a player attacks the quest npc the npc will get a 50 million hp buff...
2. A player will only do 10% of his normal damage if he attacks a quest npc.
3. The quest npc will regen hp 1000% faster if a player attacks him.
4. A player cant attack quest npc:s. Only Rift invaders can attack them.
A few options. I would probably prefer 2 or 4.
I mean PvP is fighting other players. Not killing NPC:s... I enjoy PvP. But doing something like that is not in any way PvP.
Thinngs like that only hurts the game. And true PvP fans prefer if PvP is about fighting other players. If people killing those NPC:s started fights with other players there would be more PvP. But I guess people that behave like that are not good enough to do real PvP. And prefer to interrupt players doing quests in lower level areas.
I'm getting very confused about this game. The server status site shows there is a PVE server. But lots of people are asking for a PVE server without PVP. So there is PVP on the PVE server? Just confused.
Yes it's the same as WoW PVE server. I don't know what the fuss is about. There are contested zones where you can opt to PVP via flagging.... or you can just deck an NPC. Please folks relax and keep those preorders going for Rift!
They could give quest npc:s 50 million hp and make them impossible to kill.
They could not really do that as quest npcs need to be easy to kill so Rift Invaders can kill them and take over hubs. Quest hubs seem to be balanced where the quest npcs will always lose to non elite Rift Invaders if no player is there to help. The only real option I can think of short of banning griefers would be to make them green to both factions on PvE servers.
There are several ways to fix that problem without making it impossible for Rift invaders to kill them.
1. If a player attacks the quest npc the npc will get a 50 million hp buff...
2. A player will only do 10% of his normal damage if he attacks a quest npc.
3. The quest npc will regen hp 1000% faster if a player attacks him.
4. A player cant attack quest npc:s. Only Rift invaders can attack them.
A few options. I would probably prefer 2 or 4.
I mean PvP is fighting other players. Not killing NPC:s... I enjoy PvP. But doing something like that is not in any way PvP.
Thinngs like that only hurts the game. And true PvP fans prefer if PvP is about fighting other players. If people killing those NPC:s started fights with other players there would be more PvP. But I guess people that behave like that are not good enough to do real PvP. And prefer to interrupt players doing quests in lower level areas.
People that kill quest npcs ARE engaging in PvE. there is not difference between someone killing a npc or a boar.
if people were so inclined, they could kill your quest objectives or mobs, circumventing your suggested "fixes"
This isnt a development issue. People are the problem.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
PvE'ers don't mind if someone else wants to PvP as long as it doesn't effect their game play... that is the reason for having PvE servers isn't it???
Yes, but for some that means flagging, and for others that means pvp is 100% instanced. Rift caters for the former already on what are labled pve servers. Players from the latter group have requested an additional server type be created with is strictly pve a la Lotro, EQ etc. If not profitable, it won't happen. If profitable Trion has more money with which to develop content on all server types. Either way there is no change to the rule sets on the pvp and pve servers.
The response to this request on the Rift forums is probably the most fascinating/disturbing thread I have ever read. It is also a demonstration of why some players will only play on servers where all pvp is instanced. Last I looked it was 130 pages, most of it on the theme foad if you like pve, and despite posts by pvp-ers pointing out that the request didn't affect pvp-ers. Regardless if grief-proofed, regardless of flagging, the open world pvp game mechanic attracts the noisy minority and some players won't pay to be around them.
People that kill quest npcs ARE engaging in PvE. there is not difference between someone killing a npc or a boar.
Wrong, there is a major difference. On a PVE server, people killing quests NPCs are GRIEFERS. Players I pity, because they don't have the balls to play on a PvP server where there would actually be at risk all the time, but are only enjoying ruining someone else's play time.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Originally posted by JohnnyMotrin PvE'ers don't mind if someone else wants to PvP as long as it doesn't effect their game play... that is the reason for having PvE servers isn't it???
Yes, but for some that means flagging, and for others that means pvp is 100% instanced. Rift caters for the former already on what are labled pve servers. Players from the latter group have requested an additional server type be created with is strictly pve a la Lotro, EQ etc. If not profitable, it won't happen. If profitable Trion has more money with which to develop content on all server types. Either way there is no change to the rule sets on the pvp and pve servers. The response to this request on the Rift forums is probably the most fascinating/disturbing thread I have ever read. It is also a demonstration of why some players will only play on servers where all pvp is instanced. Last I looked it was 130 pages, most of it on the theme foad if you like pve, and despite posts by pvp-ers pointing out that the request didn't affect pvp-ers. Regardless if grief-proofed, regardless of flagging, the open world pvp game mechanic attracts the noisy minority and some players won't pay to be around them.
Seems more like the 'Hardcore PvE' people are the small but vocal minority here. The PvEvP players are the majority. Hence the reason Trion put it in the game from the very beginning of the game's design.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
sounds to me like OP is looking for a server where you can walk into an enemy town, wave at the hostile npcs, and walk out without a scratch. Basically they want to wander around the entire world as if they were switzerland.
I will never forget when the PVE only server was clamored for in DAOC. People wanting it were very loud and vocal and would make you think it would have thousands of players. In reality, it always lagged behind the other servers in population even at its highpoint.
The Co-Op serverrs were the highest populated servers in DAOC and were very successful. That being said alternate servers like this are best done after release after the game populaton settles.
But its inetresting you brought up DAOC as it was the last successful PvP game (outside of Eve). I would argue the reason that is because the playerbase and PvP has changed. In DAOC players were different and played PvP differently. Before the zerging started there was honor in PvP. For the most part people did not kill low levels they let them be. They did not engage in unfair fights. Now the playerbase is to imature, lacks anytype of honor in how they fight PvP, has no patience or maturity. PvP games cannot survive with these type of players. Grifing, explioting, win at all costs and the game becomes fun for no one but the kiddies. All PvP does for a game now is help initial box sales and help drive good people from games. 3-4 months after release most of the so called PvP forum posters will have moved on to PvPing on the forums of the next game they will follow. Quite simply most PvP players are forum warriors and not long term subs.
You know, I enjoy my PvP in certain games. Do I believe there should be a PvE server without flagging for PvP, where quest givers cannot be touched? Absolutely. Let the PvP happen in arenas, battlegrounds, etc on those servers and not spill out all over the place. Sometimes I want my chocolate without peanut butter. My favorite MMO experience is still the original Eq where all you had to watch out for were the train wars. Sometimes people just want to play the game, as odd as that sounds. Yes, I know, go back to my console. The console platforms that create games with limited offline or limited online play. I like community, I like other people (even if they're pixelated). However, I do not enjoy running across the same map half a dozen or more times simply because someone has nothing better to do than stand over my dead toon. Perhaps it is the people who clamor for the ability to kill wantonly that need to go to the console. There you can kill any mass of pixelation you come across in the game. Or is there simply the need to feel superior that will only attach if you know you're making another's play experience miserable?
Once again, I'll stress that I enjoy my PvP as well. Playing an FPS online is gratifying and enjoyable, as is DCUO (built more like an arcade fighter than an RPG). In MMORPGs shouldn't conquering the world be enough?
People that kill quest npcs ARE engaging in PvE. there is not difference between someone killing a npc or a boar.
if people were so inclined, they could kill your quest objectives or mobs, circumventing your suggested "fixes"
This isnt a development issue. People are the problem.
This. IIRC there are quests in the shared zones to take Stones. these are 2 factions at WAR people, they dont stop hating each other and start picking daisies because a few carebears dont like the fact that they are at war. Go play LotRO or a console RPG if you don't like the game mechanics that Trion has given you
Comments
Think you get flagged for PvP for 5 minutes if you heal/buff a flagged player. Do not mind PvP folks killing my NPCs because that only adds spice to the game. In one beta I parked my toon in a safe spot. At least I thought so. And when I logged in I was in middle of higher level invasion killing all NPCs, me and several others. And that was fun. Same goes for PvP flagged players, I just take them as an invasion. Difference with PvP servers is that there you can conquer territories of the opposing faction.
As I'm reading the various posts in this thread, a major point is being left out of the convo. The BIG problem people are having on the PvE servers are that groups of higher level players are camping at NPC quest hubs for hours at a time killing the NPC's every time they spawn. These groups are making it impossible for people to get quests and turn them in. To add to this, by default everyone is flagged for PvP so unless you were aware, these gankers probably ran a train on your behind once or twice. Not only that, repairing your soul can get quite expensive.
PvE'ers don't mind if someone else wants to PvP as long as it doesn't effect their game play... that is the reason for having PvE servers isn't it???
They could give quest npc:s 50 million hp and make them impossible to kill. That would fix that problem and there would be no need to change any rules or mechanics. I agree that you should be able to do your quests without the quest npc getting farmed and killed. I do alot of pvp myself. But killing quest npc:s is not pvp... Its just silly.
There should be other ways to get good (real)pvp fights. And on a PvE server players that wants to PvE should not be interrupted and hindered by something like that. I mean it will hurt the game if people that log in to do some quests cant because the quest giving npc:s are dead. This is not even OK on PvP servers...you should be able to kill the players everywhere but there is no reason you should be able to kill quest-npc:s... Being able to kill the players trying to do the quests is enough... Killing quest npc:s is not PvP.
You're not getting it...
It is PvP, matter of fact Forced PvP because that's the only way you're going to get them to leave and thus get your NPC's/Quest hubs back.
I disagree.
As another poster mentionned, most high end guilds are not spending much time trolling forums. If they end up playing a weak class (or a class that doesn't really work well in PVE), they reroll or they just try to make the best use of it. The same goes with high end pvp players.
Though in my opinion, when there is competition follows asshateries. PvP is driven by competition. PvE has competition, but it's not its main driver. This would explain such a big difference in attitude in global chat between, for example, Tyranny/NA and Wiccana/NA in Age of Conan.
But when it comes to who's complaining the most, look at this reactionary thread about World of Warcraft's latest patch. The main concern out there is 'I'll get insta-gibbed while other classes are playing easy mode', or 'I'll lose my raid spot because they are nerfing me!'. In my eyes both PVEers and PVPers are complaining loudly and equally.
There are several ways to fix that problem without making it impossible for Rift invaders to kill them.
1. If a player attacks the quest npc the npc will get a 50 million hp buff...
2. A player will only do 10% of his normal damage if he attacks a quest npc.
3. The quest npc will regen hp 1000% faster if a player attacks him.
4. A player cant attack quest npc:s. Only Rift invaders can attack them.
A few options. I would probably prefer 2 or 4.
I mean PvP is fighting other players. Not killing NPC:s... I enjoy PvP. But doing something like that is not in any way PvP.
Thinngs like that only hurts the game. And true PvP fans prefer if PvP is about fighting other players. If people killing those NPC:s started fights with other players there would be more PvP. But I guess people that behave like that are not good enough to do real PvP. And prefer to interrupt players doing quests in lower level areas.
Yes it's the same as WoW PVE server. I don't know what the fuss is about. There are contested zones where you can opt to PVP via flagging.... or you can just deck an NPC. Please folks relax and keep those preorders going for Rift!
PVE/PVP servers in Rift work the same as most other MMOs. If you don't want to PVP join a PVE server and just don't flag yourself. Done.
People that kill quest npcs ARE engaging in PvE. there is not difference between someone killing a npc or a boar.
if people were so inclined, they could kill your quest objectives or mobs, circumventing your suggested "fixes"
This isnt a development issue. People are the problem.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Wrong, there is a major difference. On a PVE server, people killing quests NPCs are GRIEFERS. Players I pity, because they don't have the balls to play on a PvP server where there would actually be at risk all the time, but are only enjoying ruining someone else's play time.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Seems more like the 'Hardcore PvE' people are the small but vocal minority here. The PvEvP players are the majority. Hence the reason Trion put it in the game from the very beginning of the game's design.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
sounds to me like OP is looking for a server where you can walk into an enemy town, wave at the hostile npcs, and walk out without a scratch. Basically they want to wander around the entire world as if they were switzerland.
So is this like DAoC with 2 factions.where you enter a pvp frontier if you want, or you can stay in pve areas?
The Co-Op serverrs were the highest populated servers in DAOC and were very successful. That being said alternate servers like this are best done after release after the game populaton settles.
But its inetresting you brought up DAOC as it was the last successful PvP game (outside of Eve). I would argue the reason that is because the playerbase and PvP has changed. In DAOC players were different and played PvP differently. Before the zerging started there was honor in PvP. For the most part people did not kill low levels they let them be. They did not engage in unfair fights. Now the playerbase is to imature, lacks anytype of honor in how they fight PvP, has no patience or maturity. PvP games cannot survive with these type of players. Grifing, explioting, win at all costs and the game becomes fun for no one but the kiddies. All PvP does for a game now is help initial box sales and help drive good people from games. 3-4 months after release most of the so called PvP forum posters will have moved on to PvPing on the forums of the next game they will follow. Quite simply most PvP players are forum warriors and not long term subs.
You know, I enjoy my PvP in certain games. Do I believe there should be a PvE server without flagging for PvP, where quest givers cannot be touched? Absolutely. Let the PvP happen in arenas, battlegrounds, etc on those servers and not spill out all over the place. Sometimes I want my chocolate without peanut butter. My favorite MMO experience is still the original Eq where all you had to watch out for were the train wars. Sometimes people just want to play the game, as odd as that sounds. Yes, I know, go back to my console. The console platforms that create games with limited offline or limited online play. I like community, I like other people (even if they're pixelated). However, I do not enjoy running across the same map half a dozen or more times simply because someone has nothing better to do than stand over my dead toon. Perhaps it is the people who clamor for the ability to kill wantonly that need to go to the console. There you can kill any mass of pixelation you come across in the game. Or is there simply the need to feel superior that will only attach if you know you're making another's play experience miserable?
Once again, I'll stress that I enjoy my PvP as well. Playing an FPS online is gratifying and enjoyable, as is DCUO (built more like an arcade fighter than an RPG). In MMORPGs shouldn't conquering the world be enough?
This. IIRC there are quests in the shared zones to take Stones. these are 2 factions at WAR people, they dont stop hating each other and start picking daisies because a few carebears dont like the fact that they are at war. Go play LotRO or a console RPG if you don't like the game mechanics that Trion has given you
I would propably go for 3-5 mins grace time after respawn, this is used mechanic in games where same mobs are both quest givers and targets.
Why not wholy disable combat for some people then?