I'm not trying to make you think ganking is good. You don't like being ganked, you think it sucks. Fine, I can appreicate that. But its not the same as griefing. Your definition of griefing seems to be any pvp that you don't think is justified and that is simply not the case.
Ganking that has no justification outside of enjoyment for the person perpetrating it, is very much griefing.
As I've stated, if you are competing with other players over an objective, resources, etc that benefit you, or you are doing to to exact revenge over them having wronged you in some way, it's not griefing.
If however, you gank another player who is minding his own business and is in no way impeding you or in direct competition with you over some objective or resource, and you have no justifiable motivation to gank them other than "it's easy and/or it's fun", then you my friend, are griefing.
The fact that your definition of griefing requires that you presume to know the intent of the other person without actually knowing it invalidates it. If someone kills you for no reason you've been ganked. If they target you specifically, killing you repeatedly, not letting you play or progess, then you're being griefed. The difference is huge.
No it doesn't. It's the INTENT that defines the action. The fact that INTENT may not always be easy to discern at face value doesn't change the action... it just means that it may require some effort to discover.
However most of the time, INTENT not much in question....either you observe it through established patterns of behavior or in many cases, the "ganker" outright admits as much themsleves through chat.
What I see is alot of people trying to play Johnny Cochrane here to try to pretend anti-social behavior is somehow not anti-social behavior because it hasn't been witnessed by 30 nuns and a priest and you don't have a confession signed in triplicate.
Trust me, MOST of the time if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....it's a duck.
Most "gankers" are griefers...some may not be...but most are.
if you are the opposing faction and you are on a pvp server, no matter what level you are i will kill you. you are the enemy in game so when i see you i will try my best to kill you.
Essentially, in a game like Lineage 2, it was about finding/making your own faction and using your power how you saw fit.
And interesting social effct, at least on the old hindemith server, was that the server would only put up with nonsense from very hostile clans/alliances for so long.
Then they would rise up and remove them from their castles.
It worked this way for quite a while and actually created some incredible sieges.
But again, this type of game is not for everyone and that's "ok".
I could easily see why players wouldn't want it. But it did create a very palpable, very real game world. I recall signing off of LOTRO in order to attend a huge siege on one evening.
When I logged into Lineage 2 and saw everyone running around preparing, saw the sides mustering I could really feel the energy and the sense of urgency that this event created.
It felt like what was going to go down mattered more as it affected, in this case, most of the server.
This is a far cry from games like LOTRO where you just log on, have some fun and log off.
It's just a completely different experience.
Games that allow you to murder players tha have no chance to defend themselves are bad games.
Or just games that aren't for everyone.
If a game allows players to murder people who have no chance but there is some sort of consequence such as the player going red (in L2 a red player with a certain amount of kills can drop gear if killed) and everyone who signs into the game likes this type of gameplay then how is it a bad game?
you see, the problem I have with this discussion is that there are people who catagorically hate this type of game play but for some reason have a problem with it existing for those who like it.
Now, these games are niche games. But if the game can garner enough subs so that it can keep it's doors open and the players who sign on like the experience then I don't see the issue.
I don't have a problem with games existing where people throw monkey poo at each other if that's what they like and the game honestly advertises what it's about. If you enjoy it..go for it.
Doesn't mean I won't make some judgments about that sort of game, it's designers and the people who play it.
My real problem is where those sorts of players come into other types of games who's game design cleary isn't about that intent but which offer some form of PvP and then those players exploit holes in the PvP mechanics to allow them to do just that...where it wasn't really the game designers intent. Now it's easy to say...don't have mechanics that allow that.... but it's alot tougher to design PvP mechanics that are meaningfull but gank-proof.
I honestly don't think most games where PvP exists and where ganking happens are designed with the intent to be gankfests. Heck, I don't even think most FFA Open PvP games were built by the designers with the intent of being rabid gankfests.
I haven't seen too many ads for those games that read "Come here and be Ganked!". Yet that's what most of those games seem to devolve into...and little more.
Ah, as always I harken back to the early days of EQ. First, there was the invention of camping (legend has it the first camp target was the Shiny Brass Shield). There, I digressed immediately to get it out of my system. But the next invention, to my mind, was training. Aggroing a string of mobs, then heading to where other players were camping, or grinding. What fun. And then there was - exploit griefing. My best example is from WoW. They introduced the snake trap for high level hunters. And at the outset the snakes didn't obey the pvp restrictions. So I am sitting on a dock waiting for a boat, up comes a group of horde, one of who is a hunter. I am lvl 14. I am not worried, let them have their fun, I am too low for them to attack me, at least in a very low level area. Boom, eaten by snakes. That guy knew damn well the trap wasn't intended to circumvent the pvp rules. But he looked me in the eye and cast it. I am pretty sure the Darkshore docks weren't meant for exploit ganking.
I also played WoW on a pvp server. I have no problem with small groups patrolling popular leveling zones to kill enemy players. The other side would find it necessary to provide protection. I remember getting caught up such a contest, and my faction showed up to clear the area. Then one lvl 60 rode up to me and commented, "OK, all clear. I think you can continue leveling now." And I gave him a bow. When I soloed on that server it was alwaya a little dicey, but that just added to the spice, imo. I needed to do some scouting, some recon, and occassionally get surprized. But Wow had so many zones and areas that if someone tried to camp you, you just moved over. And the "campers" quickly got bored.
It's all in your point of view really. You either think it's part of the game or you think the other guy(s) are just trying to annoy you, depending on the game/situation. Opinions will vary. The guy who snake trapped me was a jerk. The guy who patiently waited for me to absent mindedly wander down a trail in full view (stupid look on my face, I am sure!) and smacked me a good one was just playing the game. To me.
I like immersion, and anything that pulls me out of immersion and makes me remember I'm just a chump sitting at a computer paying $15 a month to some game designers, pisses me off.
Ganking that's in the spirit of the game (e.g. someone roleplaying - in the general sense - a pirate or criminal) doesn't pull me out of immersion, and I absolutely don't mind it at all - not matter how vicious or "unfair", if it's in the spirit of the game, with some attempt at immersion, I'm all for it.
Ganking that's just obviously some tit sitting at a computer getting their lulz in by griefing, without any attempt at making it make some sense in the game world, that pulls me out of immersion and pisses me off.
Of course, one has to live with a certain amount of the latter in any FFA PvP context, it's just part of the territory.
In the broader view, of course people are and should be free to play as they like; it's just that in any MMORPG there are bound to be some people I'd rather not be on the same server as
Frankly, I'd be quite happy to have an MMORPG that was much more expensive per month, and that was not anonymous, just to filter out the people for whom those features would be a barrier to cheap thrills. A server like that with a few thousand population who were really into the immersion and didn't stand fools gladly, would be MMORPG heaven, even with the ever-present possibility of being ganked meaningfully.
In fact, EVE sort of tends that way anyway, as it's a pretty expensive MMO to feed. There are a few dickheads here and there, but most of the PvP, when you get into the low sec stuff, is sort of vaguely in character, which is great.
Essentially, in a game like Lineage 2, it was about finding/making your own faction and using your power how you saw fit.
And interesting social effct, at least on the old hindemith server, was that the server would only put up with nonsense from very hostile clans/alliances for so long.
Then they would rise up and remove them from their castles.
It worked this way for quite a while and actually created some incredible sieges.
But again, this type of game is not for everyone and that's "ok".
I could easily see why players wouldn't want it. But it did create a very palpable, very real game world. I recall signing off of LOTRO in order to attend a huge siege on one evening.
When I logged into Lineage 2 and saw everyone running around preparing, saw the sides mustering I could really feel the energy and the sense of urgency that this event created.
It felt like what was going to go down mattered more as it affected, in this case, most of the server.
This is a far cry from games like LOTRO where you just log on, have some fun and log off.
It's just a completely different experience.
Games that allow you to murder players tha have no chance to defend themselves are bad games.
Or just games that aren't for everyone.
If a game allows players to murder people who have no chance but there is some sort of consequence such as the player going red (in L2 a red player with a certain amount of kills can drop gear if killed) and everyone who signs into the game likes this type of gameplay then how is it a bad game?
you see, the problem I have with this discussion is that there are people who catagorically hate this type of game play but for some reason have a problem with it existing for those who like it.
Now, these games are niche games. But if the game can garner enough subs so that it can keep it's doors open and the players who sign on like the experience then I don't see the issue.
I don't have a problem with games existing where people throw monkey poo at each other if that's what they like and the game honestly advertises what it's about. If you enjoy it..go for it.
Doesn't mean I won't make some judgments about that sort of game, it's designers and the people who play it.
My real problem is where those sorts of players come into other types of games who's game design cleary isn't about that intent but which offer some form of PvP and then those players exploit holes in the PvP mechanics to allow them to do just that...where it wasn't really the game designers intent. Now it's easy to say...don't have mechanics that allow that.... but it's alot tougher to design PvP mechanics that are meaningfull but gank-proof.
I honestly don't think most games where PvP exists and where ganking happens are designed with the intent to be gankfests. Heck, I don't even think most FFA Open PvP games were built by the designers with the intent of being rabid gankfests.
I haven't seen too many ads for those games that read "Come here and be Ganked!". Yet that's what most of those games seem to devolve into...and little more.
you do know what FFA pvp means right, it means free for all. by definition free for all means uncontrolled but here you are saying it should be controlled. if its a pvp server a player killing another player is part of the rule set, you might not like it but it is what it is.
I'm not trying to make you think ganking is good. You don't like being ganked, you think it sucks. Fine, I can appreicate that. But its not the same as griefing. Your definition of griefing seems to be any pvp that you don't think is justified and that is simply not the case.
Ganking that has no justification outside of enjoyment for the person perpetrating it, is very much griefing.
As I've stated, if you are competing with other players over an objective, resources, etc that benefit you, or you are doing to to exact revenge over them having wronged you in some way, it's not griefing.
If however, you gank another player who is minding his own business and is in no way impeding you or in direct competition with you over some objective or resource, and you have no justifiable motivation to gank them other than "it's easy and/or it's fun", then you my friend, are griefing.
The fact that your definition of griefing requires that you presume to know the intent of the other person without actually knowing it invalidates it. If someone kills you for no reason you've been ganked. If they target you specifically, killing you repeatedly, not letting you play or progess, then you're being griefed. The difference is huge.
In many circumstances it's relatively easy to accurately assume the intent of a player who is ganking.
If an lowbie is standing out in the wilderness, not actively competing with anyone else over resources, spawns, or anything else of consequences. Suddenly a high level player comes by, sees the lowbie whom he's never had contact with before or is in any way affiliated to them or their 'enemies', and kills him.
That's griefing, it really doesn't get any more simple than that. There was no motivation for the high level player to kill the lower level player who was minding his business. To think it's anything else but griefing is being naive. Stop deluding yourself into thinking that it's not griefing, because I assure you that a great many other people whom it happens to believe it's griefing as well. It's this exact mentality that you have which is why today's FFA PvP ruleset games are doomed to garner nothing more than niche popularity, because the majority of gamers don't want to have to put up with what they feel is griefing behavior.
As per your definition of what griefing is, that's actually harassment, which is simply griefing taken to the next level due to it being focused upon a specificly targeted player or players, and prolonged over a large span of time.
No, that is ganking. Not saying its good or justified or that the ganker isn't a total asshat, just that it is gangking. If the player spawn camps the lowbie and hunts him non-stop then its griefing. You're essentially saying any activity that you judge as negative to you is griefing and that is a ridiculous claim. You're essentially saying that any gameplay in an antagonistic mmo that isn't positive for all involved rises to the level of abuse. If someone outbids you on the market have you been griefed?
No, he's saying that griefing is any action taken by a player with the express intent to cause another player GRIEF. Strangely enough, that is the accepted definition of the term by most players.
Whether it's possible to PROOVE that the other players intent was to cause GRIEF or not is a seperate issue (although it's really not as difficult as some people pretend it is)... but actions taken with the express intent of causing GRIEF are "griefing".... it can't get much plainer then that.
I do admit that I like hearing the, "if you don't like getting ganked, this game is not for you so GTFO!" mentality that everyone who plays these sort of games seems to have. All they're really doing is ignoring the greater problem and perpetuating their game's existence as a tiny, insignificant niche title that hardly anyone plays.
Then again, I think most people who play FFA PvP games actually like the fact that they're playing a niche title. I think that by doing so, they get some sort of satisfaction out of thinking that they are superior to the average MMO player.
That is indeed the irony about the whole situation.
Back in UO -- Yes I realize I keep referencing it, but it's because it's such a fantastic historical reference for this topic -- when the PvE ruleset area was added, all of the 'hardcore PvPers' -- AKA the gankers / murderers -- complained that everyone had left the old FFA ruleset lands. Basically they complained that they didn't have anyone to kill but each other, which meant no more easy pickings for them. They bitched up and down that the change "ruined the game", when the reality of the issue, is that they were actually the ones that ruined the game by creating such a hostile environment, that the developers were prompted to offer a non-PvP alternative, which players in-turn flocked to in order to get away from the gankers and murderers.
Man... We have a whole bunch of people in this thread that should never, ever roll on a pvp server or play anytype of pvp focused game.
Ever think that people just like killing others? Why attack them personally as if they have a issue in real life for killing a lowbie?
Yup, I don't play PvP focused MMOs because of the minority of 'griefer' mentality players who go around randomly ganknig and killing players for no particular reason. But I do enjoy PvP in several other forms, from FPS, RTS, and other such games, and I have absolutely no problem with being killed in any of those games.
And yeah, I know that some of people just like killing other players because the act of doing so is enjoyable to them. As per 'personally attacking' the people who enjoying doing such, really it's not so much an attack as it is an observation said person displaying a sociopathic tendency. But hey, I'm not dumb enough to try to convince someone who falls within the sociopath range, because you simply can't convince such a person that they are in any way wrong in their behavior.
Which again, is why I avoid PvP ruleset games and servers, because I'd rather avoid having to deal with people who derive enjoyment out of the causing misery to others.
Man... We have a whole bunch of people in this thread that should never, ever roll on a pvp server or play anytype of pvp focused game.
Ever think that people just like killing others? Why attack them personally as if they have a issue in real life for killing a lowbie?
Yup, I don't play PvP focused MMOs because of the minority of 'griefer' mentality players who go around randomly ganknig and killing players for no particular reason. But I do enjoy PvP in several other forms, from FPS, RTS, and other such games, and I have absolutely no problem with being killed in any of those games.
And yeah, I know that some of people just like killing other players because the act of doing so is enjoyable to them. As per 'personally attacking' the people who enjoying doing such, really it's not so much an attack as it is an observation said person displaying a sociopathic tendency. But hey, I'm not dumb enough to try to convince someone who falls within the sociopath range, because you simply can't convince such a person that they are in any way wrong in their behavior.
Which again, is why I avoid PvP ruleset games and servers, because I'd rather avoid having to deal with people who derive enjoyment out of the causing misert to others.
so because a person would rather interact and attack players rather than boars that makes them a sociopath. Just because my idea of fun doesnt match yours doesnt make me a lesser person or clinically ill, maybe you are just taking these "games" far too seriously. yes i do like killing players and i like being hunted by players too, this doesnt mean i have a personality disorder its a game for god sake.
First of all, the context I put it in is with regards to "interecting" with another player in a negative way, in which it is non-related to any specific ingame related goal or gain. In other words, it's taken in the context that the person you're attacking hasn't done anything to provoke it from an ingame standpoint.
Furthermore, said ganking is targetted towards players whom are, for whatever reason, unable to adequately defend themselves.
Lastly, I further qualified it by stating that the intent was to 'derive enjoyment' from the knowledge that the victim was caused distressed.
If your ingame 'ganking' follows the above criteria, you are displaying a sociopathic tendency. That doesn't mean that you are a sociopath, simply that you are behaving in-part like one.
Take that as you will. If the knowledge of that assessment upsets you, maybe you should re-evaluate your behavior.
Essentially, in a game like Lineage 2, it was about finding/making your own faction and using your power how you saw fit.
And interesting social effct, at least on the old hindemith server, was that the server would only put up with nonsense from very hostile clans/alliances for so long.
Then they would rise up and remove them from their castles.
It worked this way for quite a while and actually created some incredible sieges.
But again, this type of game is not for everyone and that's "ok".
I could easily see why players wouldn't want it. But it did create a very palpable, very real game world. I recall signing off of LOTRO in order to attend a huge siege on one evening.
When I logged into Lineage 2 and saw everyone running around preparing, saw the sides mustering I could really feel the energy and the sense of urgency that this event created.
It felt like what was going to go down mattered more as it affected, in this case, most of the server.
This is a far cry from games like LOTRO where you just log on, have some fun and log off.
It's just a completely different experience.
Games that allow you to murder players tha have no chance to defend themselves are bad games.
Or just games that aren't for everyone.
If a game allows players to murder people who have no chance but there is some sort of consequence such as the player going red (in L2 a red player with a certain amount of kills can drop gear if killed) and everyone who signs into the game likes this type of gameplay then how is it a bad game?
you see, the problem I have with this discussion is that there are people who catagorically hate this type of game play but for some reason have a problem with it existing for those who like it.
Now, these games are niche games. But if the game can garner enough subs so that it can keep it's doors open and the players who sign on like the experience then I don't see the issue.
I don't have a problem with games existing where people throw monkey poo at each other if that's what they like and the game honestly advertises what it's about. If you enjoy it..go for it.
Doesn't mean I won't make some judgments about that sort of game, it's designers and the people who play it.
My real problem is where those sorts of players come into other types of games who's game design cleary isn't about that intent but which offer some form of PvP and then those players exploit holes in the PvP mechanics to allow them to do just that...where it wasn't really the game designers intent. Now it's easy to say...don't have mechanics that allow that.... but it's alot tougher to design PvP mechanics that are meaningfull but gank-proof.
I honestly don't think most games where PvP exists and where ganking happens are designed with the intent to be gankfests. Heck, I don't even think most FFA Open PvP games were built by the designers with the intent of being rabid gankfests.
I haven't seen too many ads for those games that read "Come here and be Ganked!". Yet that's what most of those games seem to devolve into...and little more.
you do know what FFA pvp means right, it means free for all. by definition free for all means uncontrolled but here you are saying it should be controlled. if its a pvp server a player killing another player is part of the rule set, you might not like it but it is what it is.
Free For All simply means that PvP is not constrained to preset factions. It doesn't mean that the intent is for high level players to go around feverishly ganking low level players at any opportunity that presents itself.
It's sort of like real physics and collision. Designers might like to put collision in game because it's a really cool combat mechanic alternative (especialy to the aggro system). It means that in combat players don't have to rely on aggro mechanics to tank...and it can work against other players as well as mobs. You can even do cool stuff like hold choke-points in PvP battles.
However, in games that impliment it, inevitably some jerk will come around and use it to block access to the door of a bank or vault or temple or quest giver in a non-combat area/town and prevent anyone else from using that area...for no other reason that they can...and they like being a jerk.
Just becase a mechanic exists doesn't neccesarly mean that the designer intended for a player to use that mechanic in the way that they are doing. Unfortunately...it can be very difficult to code a mechanic so that it is ONLY used in the way it was intended and not in any way not intended. Unfortunately these games sometimes seem to attract a small minority which exhibit the worst sort of behavior.....and that small minority often ruins what would otherwise be very cool mehanics for everyone else by abusing thier intent. It really is a pitty that some players can't exhibit a better sense of maturity and sportsmenship toward others.
In short...just because a game has a FFA PvP ruleset doesn't mean that the designers intent was really that it devolve into a rabid gankfest....heck that pretty much ensures they are going to have a tough time retaining new players.... unforunately that's what many devolve into, unless heavly policed by the Devs.
Man... We have a whole bunch of people in this thread that should never, ever roll on a pvp server or play anytype of pvp focused game.
Ever think that people just like killing others? Why attack them personally as if they have a issue in real life for killing a lowbie?
Yup, I don't play PvP focused MMOs because of the minority of 'griefer' mentality players who go around randomly ganknig and killing players for no particular reason. But I do enjoy PvP in several other forms, from FPS, RTS, and other such games, and I have absolutely no problem with being killed in any of those games.
And yeah, I know that some of people just like killing other players because the act of doing so is enjoyable to them. As per 'personally attacking' the people who enjoying doing such, really it's not so much an attack as it is an observation said person displaying a sociopathic tendency. But hey, I'm not dumb enough to try to convince someone who falls within the sociopath range, because you simply can't convince such a person that they are in any way wrong in their behavior.
Which again, is why I avoid PvP ruleset games and servers, because I'd rather avoid having to deal with people who derive enjoyment out of the causing misert to others.
so because a person would rather interact and attack players rather than boars that makes them a sociopath. Just because my idea of fun doesnt match yours doesnt make me a lesser person or clinically ill, maybe you are just taking these "games" far too seriously. yes i do like killing players and i like being hunted by players too, this doesnt mean i have a personality disorder its a game for god sake.
First of all, the context I put it in is with regards to "interecting" with another player in a negative way, in which it is non-related to any specific ingame related goal or gain. In other words, it's taken in the context that the person you're attacking hasn't done anything to provoke it from an ingame standpoint.
Furthermore, said ganking is targetted towards players whom are, for whatever reason, unable to adequately defend themselves.
Lastly, I further qualified it by stating that the intent was to 'derive enjoyment' from the knowledge that the victim was caused distressed.
If your ingame 'ganking' follows the above criteria, you are displaying a sociopathic tendency. That doesn't mean that you are a sociopath, simply that you are behaving in-part like one.
Take that as you will. If the knowledge of that assessment upsets you, maybe you should re-evaluate your behavior.
Ok Doctor Phil you have it all wrong, i dont attack other players to upset them i attack other players because i enjoy it. someone getting upset by that seems very silly to me. i dont repeatedly gank someone, if i have killed the person then i tend to leave them alone the next time i see them unless they provoke or attack me first. Sorry but what i do in a pvp game doesnt define me as a person in real life.
Essentially, in a game like Lineage 2, it was about finding/making your own faction and using your power how you saw fit.
And interesting social effct, at least on the old hindemith server, was that the server would only put up with nonsense from very hostile clans/alliances for so long.
Then they would rise up and remove them from their castles.
It worked this way for quite a while and actually created some incredible sieges.
But again, this type of game is not for everyone and that's "ok".
I could easily see why players wouldn't want it. But it did create a very palpable, very real game world. I recall signing off of LOTRO in order to attend a huge siege on one evening.
When I logged into Lineage 2 and saw everyone running around preparing, saw the sides mustering I could really feel the energy and the sense of urgency that this event created.
It felt like what was going to go down mattered more as it affected, in this case, most of the server.
This is a far cry from games like LOTRO where you just log on, have some fun and log off.
It's just a completely different experience.
Games that allow you to murder players tha have no chance to defend themselves are bad games.
Or just games that aren't for everyone.
If a game allows players to murder people who have no chance but there is some sort of consequence such as the player going red (in L2 a red player with a certain amount of kills can drop gear if killed) and everyone who signs into the game likes this type of gameplay then how is it a bad game?
you see, the problem I have with this discussion is that there are people who catagorically hate this type of game play but for some reason have a problem with it existing for those who like it.
Now, these games are niche games. But if the game can garner enough subs so that it can keep it's doors open and the players who sign on like the experience then I don't see the issue.
I don't have a problem with games existing where people throw monkey poo at each other if that's what they like and the game honestly advertises what it's about. If you enjoy it..go for it.
Doesn't mean I won't make some judgments about that sort of game, it's designers and the people who play it.
My real problem is where those sorts of players come into other types of games who's game design cleary isn't about that intent but which offer some form of PvP and then those players exploit holes in the PvP mechanics to allow them to do just that...where it wasn't really the game designers intent. Now it's easy to say...don't have mechanics that allow that.... but it's alot tougher to design PvP mechanics that are meaningfull but gank-proof.
I honestly don't think most games where PvP exists and where ganking happens are designed with the intent to be gankfests. Heck, I don't even think most FFA Open PvP games were built by the designers with the intent of being rabid gankfests.
I haven't seen too many ads for those games that read "Come here and be Ganked!". Yet that's what most of those games seem to devolve into...and little more.
you do know what FFA pvp means right, it means free for all. by definition free for all means uncontrolled but here you are saying it should be controlled. if its a pvp server a player killing another player is part of the rule set, you might not like it but it is what it is.
Free For All simply means that PvP is not constrained to preset factions. It doesn't mean that the intent is for high level players to go around feverishly ganking low level players at any opportunity that presents itself.
It's sort of like real physics and collision. Designers might like to put collision in game because it's a really cool combat mechanic alternative (especialy to the aggro system). It means that in combat players don't have to rely on aggro mechanics to tank...and it can work against other players as well as mobs. You can even do cool stuff like hold choke-points in PvP battles.
However, in games that impliment it, inevitably some jerk will come around and use it to block access to the door of a bank or vault or temple or quest giver in a non-combat area/town and prevent anyone else from using that area...for no other reason that they can...and they like being a jerk.
Just becase a mechanic exists doesn't neccesarly mean that the designer intended for a player to use that mechanic in the way that they are doing. Unfortunately...it can be very difficult to code a mechanic so that it is ONLY used in the way it was intended and not in any way not intended. Unfortunately these games sometimes seem to attract a small minority which exhibit the worst sort of behavior.....and that small minority often ruins what would otherwise be very cool mehanics for everyone else by abusing thier intent. It really is a pitty that some players can't exhibit a better sense of maturity and sportsmenship toward others.
In short...just because a game has a FFA PvP ruleset doesn't mean that the designers intent was really that it devolve into a rabid gankfest....heck that pretty much ensures they are going to have a tough time retaining new players.... unforunately that's what many devolve into, unless heavly policed by the Devs.
I played lineage 2 for years so i know what im talking about. when that game was released high level players used come to the noob island and kill me or other newly joined players, when you died you would drop items and lose xp. but i didnt cry about it because i knew this when i joined the game. Lineage 2 was a FFA pvp game but it wasnt just about ganking it was about self policing by players, you had your pk'er and then you have pk killers. I didnt think the guy who killed me had some mental disorder, i just saw it as part of the game i was playing.
Man... We have a whole bunch of people in this thread that should never, ever roll on a pvp server or play anytype of pvp focused game.
Ever think that people just like killing others? Why attack them personally as if they have a issue in real life for killing a lowbie?
Yup, I don't play PvP focused MMOs because of the minority of 'griefer' mentality players who go around randomly ganknig and killing players for no particular reason. But I do enjoy PvP in several other forms, from FPS, RTS, and other such games, and I have absolutely no problem with being killed in any of those games.
And yeah, I know that some of people just like killing other players because the act of doing so is enjoyable to them. As per 'personally attacking' the people who enjoying doing such, really it's not so much an attack as it is an observation said person displaying a sociopathic tendency. But hey, I'm not dumb enough to try to convince someone who falls within the sociopath range, because you simply can't convince such a person that they are in any way wrong in their behavior.
Which again, is why I avoid PvP ruleset games and servers, because I'd rather avoid having to deal with people who derive enjoyment out of the causing misert to others.
so because a person would rather interact and attack players rather than boars that makes them a sociopath. Just because my idea of fun doesnt match yours doesnt make me a lesser person or clinically ill, maybe you are just taking these "games" far too seriously. yes i do like killing players and i like being hunted by players too, this doesnt mean i have a personality disorder its a game for god sake.
First of all, the context I put it in is with regards to "interecting" with another player in a negative way, in which it is non-related to any specific ingame related goal or gain. In other words, it's taken in the context that the person you're attacking hasn't done anything to provoke it from an ingame standpoint.
Furthermore, said ganking is targetted towards players whom are, for whatever reason, unable to adequately defend themselves.
Lastly, I further qualified it by stating that the intent was to 'derive enjoyment' from the knowledge that the victim was caused distressed.
If your ingame 'ganking' follows the above criteria, you are displaying a sociopathic tendency. That doesn't mean that you are a sociopath, simply that you are behaving in-part like one.
Take that as you will. If the knowledge of that assessment upsets you, maybe you should re-evaluate your behavior.
Ok Doctor Phil you have it all wrong, i dont attack other players to upset them i attack other players because i enjoy it. someone getting upset by that seems very silly to me. i dont repeatedly gank someone, if i have killed the person then i tend to leave them alone the next time i see them unless they provoke or attack me first. Sorry but what i do in a pvp game doesnt define me as a person in real life.
Ok but here's an interesting question. If you are say level 50.... do you enjoy taking on level 5 mobs? If not, then why would you enjoy taking on some player that has the same combat abilties as a level 5 mob?
I'm not trying to put you down or anything. I'm just honestly curious as to why you would derive enjoyment from taking on a player that had that significant a disaparity in abilities from you?
Essentially, in a game like Lineage 2, it was about finding/making your own faction and using your power how you saw fit.
And interesting social effct, at least on the old hindemith server, was that the server would only put up with nonsense from very hostile clans/alliances for so long.
Then they would rise up and remove them from their castles.
It worked this way for quite a while and actually created some incredible sieges.
But again, this type of game is not for everyone and that's "ok".
I could easily see why players wouldn't want it. But it did create a very palpable, very real game world. I recall signing off of LOTRO in order to attend a huge siege on one evening.
When I logged into Lineage 2 and saw everyone running around preparing, saw the sides mustering I could really feel the energy and the sense of urgency that this event created.
It felt like what was going to go down mattered more as it affected, in this case, most of the server.
This is a far cry from games like LOTRO where you just log on, have some fun and log off.
It's just a completely different experience.
Games that allow you to murder players tha have no chance to defend themselves are bad games.
Or just games that aren't for everyone.
If a game allows players to murder people who have no chance but there is some sort of consequence such as the player going red (in L2 a red player with a certain amount of kills can drop gear if killed) and everyone who signs into the game likes this type of gameplay then how is it a bad game?
you see, the problem I have with this discussion is that there are people who catagorically hate this type of game play but for some reason have a problem with it existing for those who like it.
Now, these games are niche games. But if the game can garner enough subs so that it can keep it's doors open and the players who sign on like the experience then I don't see the issue.
I don't have a problem with games existing where people throw monkey poo at each other if that's what they like and the game honestly advertises what it's about. If you enjoy it..go for it.
Doesn't mean I won't make some judgments about that sort of game, it's designers and the people who play it.
My real problem is where those sorts of players come into other types of games who's game design cleary isn't about that intent but which offer some form of PvP and then those players exploit holes in the PvP mechanics to allow them to do just that...where it wasn't really the game designers intent. Now it's easy to say...don't have mechanics that allow that.... but it's alot tougher to design PvP mechanics that are meaningfull but gank-proof.
I honestly don't think most games where PvP exists and where ganking happens are designed with the intent to be gankfests. Heck, I don't even think most FFA Open PvP games were built by the designers with the intent of being rabid gankfests.
I haven't seen too many ads for those games that read "Come here and be Ganked!". Yet that's what most of those games seem to devolve into...and little more.
you do know what FFA pvp means right, it means free for all. by definition free for all means uncontrolled but here you are saying it should be controlled. if its a pvp server a player killing another player is part of the rule set, you might not like it but it is what it is.
Free For All simply means that PvP is not constrained to preset factions. It doesn't mean that the intent is for high level players to go around feverishly ganking low level players at any opportunity that presents itself.
It's sort of like real physics and collision. Designers might like to put collision in game because it's a really cool combat mechanic alternative (especialy to the aggro system). It means that in combat players don't have to rely on aggro mechanics to tank...and it can work against other players as well as mobs. You can even do cool stuff like hold choke-points in PvP battles.
However, in games that impliment it, inevitably some jerk will come around and use it to block access to the door of a bank or vault or temple or quest giver in a non-combat area/town and prevent anyone else from using that area...for no other reason that they can...and they like being a jerk.
Just becase a mechanic exists doesn't neccesarly mean that the designer intended for a player to use that mechanic in the way that they are doing. Unfortunately...it can be very difficult to code a mechanic so that it is ONLY used in the way it was intended and not in any way not intended. Unfortunately these games sometimes seem to attract a small minority which exhibit the worst sort of behavior.....and that small minority often ruins what would otherwise be very cool mehanics for everyone else by abusing thier intent. It really is a pitty that some players can't exhibit a better sense of maturity and sportsmenship toward others.
In short...just because a game has a FFA PvP ruleset doesn't mean that the designers intent was really that it devolve into a rabid gankfest....heck that pretty much ensures they are going to have a tough time retaining new players.... unforunately that's what many devolve into, unless heavly policed by the Devs.
I played lineage 2 for years so i know what im talking about. when that game was released high level players used come to the noob island and kill me or other newly joined players, when you died you would drop items and lose xp. but i didnt cry about it because i knew this when i joined the game. Lineage 2 was a FFA pvp game but it wasnt just about ganking it was about self policing by players, you had your pk'er and then you have pk killers. I didnt think the guy who killed me had some mental disorder, i just saw it as part of the game i was playing.
I know what I'm talking about too. I played a MUD called Gemstone for many years that had FFA PvP mechanics. However the GM's tightly policed it. If you went around killing people without cause (or even with cause if it got out of hand) you would get yanked out of the game, banned and even perma-banned if you ignored warnings. Especialy true if you went around killing lower level players.
The PvP mechanic existed in order people to RP conflicts (consentualy). The rule was that you didn't kill other people without thier consent. The Dev's made it very cleary to all players exactly what the expected rules of behavior were for the players before they played. Most nights there probably wasn't even a single PK incident in the game. When it did happen it was generaly between players who had agreed ahead of time to that kind of interaction and was well understood and RP'ed why it was happening. I was killed by another player or killed one myself probably no more then a dozen or two times in my 10 years there.
Worked great for that game...was one of largest and longest running commercial text based MUDS around...and had an awesome community.... but it only worked because the GM's kept a tight reign on PK behavior.
It's amazing how heated people get over the subject. To me ganking was killing a player who had little to no chance to win against his/her attacker - an imbalance of levels/abilities that clearly spelled out a quick loss for the person being ganked.
Griefers are those who go out of their way to disrupt another player's enjoyment of the game, be it via PvP or an in-game mechanic that allows them act this way. Most people associate griefers with PK camping. Griefing could just as easily be slaughtering quest mobs or NPC to keep the player from completing a quest/achievement/etc.
Do griefers project sociopathic tendencies? I would argue the point that the tendencies are more in line with being sadistic. Unless you're a trained psychologist or pyscho-therapist I would think it difficult to judge someone as having sociopathic tendencies based soley on their play style within an MMO.
If at first you don't succeed, pay someone who will.
Im glad we still have game like Darkfall where ganking is way of playing (full loot so its even harder then most games you play guys) and your victem most of time won't whine or cry about it.
I dont even see the problem in a game like WoW you dont lose anything only little setback and walk to your grave thats all.
Why choose a pvp server and then complain about ganked is beyond me this kind of playing is part of mmo's sinds UO so get use to it instead of whine and cry about it.
This topic is sad becouse you just hope it will make developers think again, and try everything to avoid you been ganked save carebear ass ingame so you and so many others dont cry or whine on forums about some pixels on your screen:P
For years you anti gankers came to Darkfall section saying you hate gankers while you dont even play such games is pathetic so much hate is so SAD:(
Its only a game people, learn to enjoy it having fun, no matter what playstyle please dont hate gankers its silly.
Cya ingame, but watch your back maybe ill gank you:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
For 90% of humans. Yet people are so stupid and feel they win even thought their win is worth nothing since they just pressed a button and one shotted a 1 level player...
Having to hear kids brainorz trying to excuse themselves by saying what they are doing is skill demanding and requires planning and they won because of skill is pathetic, strategy and planning is words that these people should never use and defile them...
Fair pvp exists, but it also depends heavily on ingame balance of classes(assuming both players have top gear etc). Dueling is on way, the most satisfying skill based wins come from 1v1, and mostly dueling in an rpg, were both sides are ready and are going to fight full strenght, so the player who plays better wins. even if i lose a close fight, i am still happy since its actually a really indepth strategy and reflex contest(that always depends on the complexity of classes though)
I have played "fun" pvp=unfair. Its nice but its never something to be proud off. Its fun going playing with some people and killing other groups, but there is no true skill. Its just for lulz
The main reason for ganking for me is to annoy psychologically people i dont like aka people who go orc/undead/female tauren/troll(generally non-cute non-furry monsters). I do that because i believe they are playing a race that is so ugly i cant stand it, kill the fucking thing, its ugly, it shouldnt exist!!! Top model werewolves and bulls and smelly humans only!!!
Or just annoy stupid people who shout u ganking noob, these ppl are rly stupid and i like seeing how more stupid they can be by keep shouting xD
I think it's important to note that getting ganked or evern griefed is not an issue for players who clearly understand the rules of the game world and are there precisely because those rules exist.
But if players don't want to be tackled they shouldn't be playing full contact football.
The proper analogy would be 'If players don't want to get tackled by a freight train while playing football, they shouldn't be playing a hackneyed version of football where older athletes can drive vehicles on the field.'
Though I guess you'd leave out accuracy for the sake of making a point.
Just come out and say it.
'I like being able to savagely beat to death people that don't have a chance. I'm satisfied every time I see a new corpse of an otherwise innocent bystander left in my wake, because I have no emotional or rational connection to other people that makes me understand that I just ruined someone's day and committed to what in the real world would be homicide.'
Is it so hard to say it?
I personally love playing PvP games because I love fighting people. It's not a fight if there's a clear victor before the fight even starts, then it's just boring. Part of the reason I've always loved doing SCA and tournaments in real life, because it's just more satisfying to me to have a challenge.
Ganking annoys me not because I die, but because there's no challenge. There's no tactical or quantitative value in games generally to beating people outside my level range, so I don't do it.
When people do it to me I suck it up and keep going. If they continue, I'm forced to wonder just what is wrong with them, because they obviously lack respect for other people, and definitely aren't doing PvP for any real combat or reward external to the glee they get from murder.
Just because a high level player can park themselves in the middle of a town full of new players and go on a killing spree doesn't mean that was the intentions or design of the game. That simply means that there is some assumption of self regulation and value judgement.
Rather the reason I made that post before inquiring about the progressive degradation of player quality in PvP games. I remember playing Planetside and having plenty of respect for other players. Playing on full PvP servers in DAoC and AC I had the same experiences. I've come back to those games and sen marked degradation, and it's obviously in part due to a new generation of gamers as much as it's older gamers just caving in.
And again why I make my point on skill centric games being my preferred PvP type. People just can't be as homicidal, because there's no one clearly below some 'level' to pick on.
Your sarcasm is unwarranted.
You make too many assumptions.
Tell me when "I" have ever ganked any individual? Tell me when I have ever camped an individual?
If the game is an all out ffa free-for-all kill-athon then that is the game. End of subject. If people want to play the game they should know the rules. If they don't like the rules then don't play. It's not for you. This is ok. Not everything has to be for everyone.
At the time during my stint in Lineage 2 I had a lvl 78 Storm Screamer. At this point in time that's not too high but at the time I was only two levels from cap and there weren't many players in that upper level range.
I could have easily taken control of any of the starter cities and there would be nothing that those new players could have done about it.
But I didn't because that's not who I am. However, I don't begrudge players who did that in L2 because that was the game. Not quests but player interaction that would then spawn additional player interaction and consequences.
You may point your finger elsewhere though I suspect that your finger shouldn't be in these types of games to begin with.
Not sarcasm, but you can downplay these problems as you see fit.
You assert assumptions, but you make no real allegations.
I can't tell you when 'you' have done things, because I haven't played a game with you that I am aware of. Freak bump into that we're not aware of aside.
If the game is an all out ffa free-for-all kill-athon, then that game is probably a shooter. Even Lineage 2 wasn't about just stabbing the crap out of other players.
Was it the centerpiece of the title? Yes!
Was that the only thing to do in it? Far from!
That 'far from' thing is the issue that one has to purposefully ignore in order to justify the idea that the game is condoning mindless slaughter. The fact that games like L2 have levels, xp, guild progression, etc that players can earn from PvP also reinforces this.
Killing a lowbie earns you what compared to killing someone your level or above? In games it's either a weak reward or no reward. And there's a reason for that. They are trying to dissuade people specifically from ganking people.
Can you still kill low level NPCs when you're 50? Yes!
Do you still kill low level NPCs every time you run by them? My guess is, no!
And why would that be? Because while it's allowed by the game's mechanics, there is neither incentive nor value to killing them or even harvesting resources from them most of the time. That's the exact same thing going on with players and layer killing. The only difference between the two is whether or not there's a person on the other side of the internet that you just arbitrarily murdured or a server.
They aren't going to outright remove the option to gank people because it's still a matter of freedom of choice, but that doesn't mean the titles condone it nor does it make the players doing it any less of dicks.
You mention player interaction, but that's the biggest pile of bull for an excuse you could make.
The only interaction that spawns reliably from ganking is trolling, rants, and whining. More often than not, the gankers just keep rolling until they're bored.
The second most common thing is they are either kicked off or bail because opposition is incoming.
The third most common thing is they have a scuffle with an equal level player or players and either win and keel ganking, or lose and leave.
It's low in the probability that any valuable conflict, reward, or even meaningful player interaction comes from it.
I also like how you place that ad hominem that I 'shouldn't place my finger in these types of games' when I very clearly have remarked on just how much I love and play PvP games.
Like the fact that my still favorite MMO is Planetside, which the only thing to do in that game is kill other players.
Like the fact that may favorite multiplayer game is Mount&Blade, which the only thing to do in that game is kill other players.
Games about fighting other people is paramount to my entertainment, because (as I always harp on) I need a challenge. PvE does not offer me a challenge, I can too easily parse the mechanics driving AI enemies and it becomes too formulaic and boring. Playing against other people is the only way for me to hope to find properly reactive and adaptable enemies, and I revel in it when I can find a well matched opponent.
The pivotal difference is I'm playing PvP for the challenge, because that's what I find fun.
What's being condoned here though is playing PvP to murder other players, which I don't find fun and just can't agree with.
So please, how is wishing for a fair fight in PvP where I can challenge evenly matched players do a duel of skill, both singularly and in large scale combat, a bid for no ffa or even PvP in general?
I call it having respect for the people I'm about to fight, it's the same reason I don't fight people in fencing, SCA, etc until they at least have a damn stick in their hands. Because that's the difference between 'fighting' someone and 'murdering' them.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
It's amazing how heated people get over the subject. To me ganking was killing a player who had little to no chance to win against his/her attacker - an imbalance of levels/abilities that clearly spelled out a quick loss for the person being ganked.
Griefers are those who go out of their way to disrupt another player's enjoyment of the game, be it via PvP or an in-game mechanic that allows them act this way. Most people associate griefers with PK camping. Griefing could just as easily be slaughtering quest mobs or NPC to keep the player from completing a quest/achievement/etc.
Do griefers project sociopathic tendencies? I would argue the point that the tendencies are more in line with being sadistic. Unless you're a trained psychologist or pyscho-therapist I would think it difficult to judge someone as having sociopathic tendencies based soley on their play style within an MMO.
+1
Ganking is a perfectly legitimate playstyle imho, griefing is never legitimate and is, as you suggest, more akin to a kind of sadism.
By "legitimate" I mean from the point of view of the devs in the design they set up. MMORPGs, as the name suggests, are roleplaying games, so the "player killing" is avatar on avatar, and ganking is a legitimate part of that. Griefing is when it gets personal, and it's deliberately meant to annoy the other player in an OOC sense.
Even EVE, which is a ganker's paradise, doesn't allow griefing, it's a reportable offence. A lot of griefing means lots of players who love immersion and are likely to stick with a game long-term if they can have their kind of fun, will leave the game. Devs don't like that - doubly so, since griefers are more fickle, and flit more from game to game.
It's true that they can shade into each other, and maybe sometimes inadvertendly and innocently too (since a player killer can't always tell how "sensitive" the gankee is to trauma); but a grey line doesn't mean there's a bunch of stuff on either side of the mark that's pretty clear cut.
The "oh it's just pixels" argument doesn't hold water. These games are designed so you get immersed, so you live through the avatar, you roleplay. Not everyone's a hardcore roleplayer of course, but most players have some feeling of living in the game world, living through the career of their avatar. Loss should hurt, otherwise the designers haven't been doing their job. Griefing loss pulls a player out of immersion, and that's bad from the devs' point of view; ganking loss is fine, so long as it's vaguely in the spirit of the game (e.g. the ganker is a criminal, a pirate, or whatnot) and doesn't shade into sadistically targetting a player for repeated torture.
...here's an interesting question. If you are say level 50.... do you enjoy taking on level 5 mobs? If not, then why would you enjoy taking on some player that has the same combat abilties as a level 5 mob?
I'm not trying to put you down or anything. I'm just honestly curious as to why you would derive enjoyment from taking on a player that had that significant a disaparity in abilities from you?
If you are a soldier in a war with someone, would you wait for them to attack you first? Would you spare the children who would one day grow up to usurp your power? If you want to win, the answer is no. Of course these games aren't as serious as the above two scenarios and should never be. But that is part of the roleplaying and immersion for many players. It's not fun, it's a "necessary" evil.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
...here's an interesting question. If you are say level 50.... do you enjoy taking on level 5 mobs? If not, then why would you enjoy taking on some player that has the same combat abilties as a level 5 mob?
I'm not trying to put you down or anything. I'm just honestly curious as to why you would derive enjoyment from taking on a player that had that significant a disaparity in abilities from you?
If you are a soldier in a war with someone, would you wait for them to attack you first? Would you spare the children who would one day grow up to usurp your power? If you want to win, the answer is no. Of course these games aren't as serious as the above two scenarios and should never be. But that is part of the roleplaying and immersion for many players. It's not fun, it's a "necessary" evil.
When you know who your enemies are, that's one thing. Seeing another player who is a known enemy, in that you've encountered them before and they've been a threat, and/or they are apart of a clan that opposes yours, or are a different faction, etc.
And then there's FFA PvP, where you don't know who your enemies are, but can potentially be attacked by any of them, and consequently you can attack any of them. You do not know for certain if they are a threat or not, you can't tell their intentions.
If you're going from the 'war' scenario to put it into perspective, then I would liken the ganking of other players unable to defend themselves, who are not knowingly associated to any enemies, and whom are not directly competing with you over anything, to be pretty much the exact same as slaughtering civilians in war.
First of all, we need to establish that ganking and griefing are two different things. A difference that is usually over looked.
That being said, I'm not a pvp'er. not good at it, don't look for it. But the possibilty that I might be attacked while attempting to do whatever it is I'm doing adds a lot to a game for me. Games without some type of open world pvp in it usually lose my interest after a while without that dynamic.
And nothing in an MMO ever gets me more more excited and happy than escaping a ganker, and engaging in some smacktalk bragging about my skillfull cowardice.
Not all griefing is ganking, but most ganking is griefing.
A player ninja looting, or smack talking, then getting ganked in response, really isn't so much a gank as it is retribution.
In my opinion, a player or group of players that ovewhelm another player or group of players in power, either through levels, gear, or numbers, and whom kill the weaker group without provocation or explicit gain (aka they're mainly just doing it because it's fun to gank), are griefing. That's the majority of ganking.
So any interaction that is not consensual and equal is griefing? That is ridiculous. Griefing is when they are trying to ruin your game by not letting you play. It has to be a sustained repeated effort to rise to the level of griefing. Ganking is a bump in the road and the natural consequence of playing a game with other people.
Yeah, whatever. I've never seen a ganker who wouldn't merrily camp out a spot like a quest objective if he thought you needed to get to it. The only question is how long it is before they get bored. That's griefing. And in my experience, it's the rule, not the exception. If you're not a threat to one of these jackals and they think they can get a few more chuckles at your expense because they've realized that you need to come back, for whatever reason, they ain't going nowhere until either you leave or someone bigger comes along and boots them out.
Ganking: the game that allows angsty, disaffected, basement-dwelling teenagers to fool themselves into thinking that they're anything more than just a waste of oxygen smothered in acne cream.
Well to me, this seems like a pointless thread, I mean why play on a PVP server if you dont want to be attacked when offguard, cuz thats basically the differences between PVP and PVE servers in most MMO's ive played.
Why be flagged on a PVE server when your not PVPing? Turn it off?
Ive never seen the point to PVP servers, there the same as PVE but you can be forced into pvp combat at any time.
It doesnt add realism to your factions cause, it just makes questing that little more time consuming and frustration when ur waiting for your death penalty to wear off or begging for money to fix your gear.
Simple solution:
PVE or RP servers, you choose when you want to pvp, what level to pvp against, saving you from being ganked!
...here's an interesting question. If you are say level 50.... do you enjoy taking on level 5 mobs? If not, then why would you enjoy taking on some player that has the same combat abilties as a level 5 mob?
I'm not trying to put you down or anything. I'm just honestly curious as to why you would derive enjoyment from taking on a player that had that significant a disaparity in abilities from you?
If you are a soldier in a war with someone, would you wait for them to attack you first? Would you spare the children who would one day grow up to usurp your power? If you want to win, the answer is no. Of course these games aren't as serious as the above two scenarios and should never be. But that is part of the roleplaying and immersion for many players. It's not fun, it's a "necessary" evil.
So you do it from a role-playing perspective? That sounds perfectly legitimate to me, although I'll point out that the first rule of RP that I was ever taught (from my MUD/MUSH days) that you don't engage in any interaction that the other player doesn't consent to...and if there is any question about that you send a private OOC /tell or /whisper to the other player to confirm it first. Not telling anyone what to do....just explaining what I was taught about RP and good sportsmanship.
I will say honestly that in all my years of playing MMORPG's, I have yet to meet a "ganker" that gave the slightest hint that they had any inclination in role-playing. The most common interaction I've seen is "gank" followed by a string of OOC taunts against the player just ganked. Maybe it's just been my personal bad luck to always run into the worst sort of these players....and I never have run into the kind that were actualy RPing.... and If I did run into the latter, I don't think I'd actualy be annoyed at the "ganker" at all.... I might even get some enjoyment out of the encounter. But I'll tell you that I litteraly have never run into that sort of "ganker" while playing an MMORPG..... in MUDS/MUSHES...yes plenty of times... and was fine with it (really didn't even consider it "ganking") but MMORPG's...not once.
In the words of the great one... I gotta call em like I see em.
Comments
if you are the opposing faction and you are on a pvp server, no matter what level you are i will kill you. you are the enemy in game so when i see you i will try my best to kill you.
I don't have a problem with games existing where people throw monkey poo at each other if that's what they like and the game honestly advertises what it's about. If you enjoy it..go for it.
Doesn't mean I won't make some judgments about that sort of game, it's designers and the people who play it.
My real problem is where those sorts of players come into other types of games who's game design cleary isn't about that intent but which offer some form of PvP and then those players exploit holes in the PvP mechanics to allow them to do just that...where it wasn't really the game designers intent. Now it's easy to say...don't have mechanics that allow that.... but it's alot tougher to design PvP mechanics that are meaningfull but gank-proof.
I honestly don't think most games where PvP exists and where ganking happens are designed with the intent to be gankfests. Heck, I don't even think most FFA Open PvP games were built by the designers with the intent of being rabid gankfests.
I haven't seen too many ads for those games that read "Come here and be Ganked!". Yet that's what most of those games seem to devolve into...and little more.
Ah, as always I harken back to the early days of EQ. First, there was the invention of camping (legend has it the first camp target was the Shiny Brass Shield). There, I digressed immediately to get it out of my system. But the next invention, to my mind, was training. Aggroing a string of mobs, then heading to where other players were camping, or grinding. What fun. And then there was - exploit griefing. My best example is from WoW. They introduced the snake trap for high level hunters. And at the outset the snakes didn't obey the pvp restrictions. So I am sitting on a dock waiting for a boat, up comes a group of horde, one of who is a hunter. I am lvl 14. I am not worried, let them have their fun, I am too low for them to attack me, at least in a very low level area. Boom, eaten by snakes. That guy knew damn well the trap wasn't intended to circumvent the pvp rules. But he looked me in the eye and cast it. I am pretty sure the Darkshore docks weren't meant for exploit ganking.
I also played WoW on a pvp server. I have no problem with small groups patrolling popular leveling zones to kill enemy players. The other side would find it necessary to provide protection. I remember getting caught up such a contest, and my faction showed up to clear the area. Then one lvl 60 rode up to me and commented, "OK, all clear. I think you can continue leveling now." And I gave him a bow. When I soloed on that server it was alwaya a little dicey, but that just added to the spice, imo. I needed to do some scouting, some recon, and occassionally get surprized. But Wow had so many zones and areas that if someone tried to camp you, you just moved over. And the "campers" quickly got bored.
It's all in your point of view really. You either think it's part of the game or you think the other guy(s) are just trying to annoy you, depending on the game/situation. Opinions will vary. The guy who snake trapped me was a jerk. The guy who patiently waited for me to absent mindedly wander down a trail in full view (stupid look on my face, I am sure!) and smacked me a good one was just playing the game. To me.
---------------------------
Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...
I like immersion, and anything that pulls me out of immersion and makes me remember I'm just a chump sitting at a computer paying $15 a month to some game designers, pisses me off.
Ganking that's in the spirit of the game (e.g. someone roleplaying - in the general sense - a pirate or criminal) doesn't pull me out of immersion, and I absolutely don't mind it at all - not matter how vicious or "unfair", if it's in the spirit of the game, with some attempt at immersion, I'm all for it.
Ganking that's just obviously some tit sitting at a computer getting their lulz in by griefing, without any attempt at making it make some sense in the game world, that pulls me out of immersion and pisses me off.
Of course, one has to live with a certain amount of the latter in any FFA PvP context, it's just part of the territory.
In the broader view, of course people are and should be free to play as they like; it's just that in any MMORPG there are bound to be some people I'd rather not be on the same server as
Frankly, I'd be quite happy to have an MMORPG that was much more expensive per month, and that was not anonymous, just to filter out the people for whom those features would be a barrier to cheap thrills. A server like that with a few thousand population who were really into the immersion and didn't stand fools gladly, would be MMORPG heaven, even with the ever-present possibility of being ganked meaningfully.
In fact, EVE sort of tends that way anyway, as it's a pretty expensive MMO to feed. There are a few dickheads here and there, but most of the PvP, when you get into the low sec stuff, is sort of vaguely in character, which is great.
you do know what FFA pvp means right, it means free for all. by definition free for all means uncontrolled but here you are saying it should be controlled. if its a pvp server a player killing another player is part of the rule set, you might not like it but it is what it is.
No, he's saying that griefing is any action taken by a player with the express intent to cause another player GRIEF. Strangely enough, that is the accepted definition of the term by most players.
Whether it's possible to PROOVE that the other players intent was to cause GRIEF or not is a seperate issue (although it's really not as difficult as some people pretend it is)... but actions taken with the express intent of causing GRIEF are "griefing".... it can't get much plainer then that.
+1
+1
First of all, the context I put it in is with regards to "interecting" with another player in a negative way, in which it is non-related to any specific ingame related goal or gain. In other words, it's taken in the context that the person you're attacking hasn't done anything to provoke it from an ingame standpoint.
Furthermore, said ganking is targetted towards players whom are, for whatever reason, unable to adequately defend themselves.
Lastly, I further qualified it by stating that the intent was to 'derive enjoyment' from the knowledge that the victim was caused distressed.
If your ingame 'ganking' follows the above criteria, you are displaying a sociopathic tendency. That doesn't mean that you are a sociopath, simply that you are behaving in-part like one.
Take that as you will. If the knowledge of that assessment upsets you, maybe you should re-evaluate your behavior.
Free For All simply means that PvP is not constrained to preset factions. It doesn't mean that the intent is for high level players to go around feverishly ganking low level players at any opportunity that presents itself.
It's sort of like real physics and collision. Designers might like to put collision in game because it's a really cool combat mechanic alternative (especialy to the aggro system). It means that in combat players don't have to rely on aggro mechanics to tank...and it can work against other players as well as mobs. You can even do cool stuff like hold choke-points in PvP battles.
However, in games that impliment it, inevitably some jerk will come around and use it to block access to the door of a bank or vault or temple or quest giver in a non-combat area/town and prevent anyone else from using that area...for no other reason that they can...and they like being a jerk.
Just becase a mechanic exists doesn't neccesarly mean that the designer intended for a player to use that mechanic in the way that they are doing. Unfortunately...it can be very difficult to code a mechanic so that it is ONLY used in the way it was intended and not in any way not intended. Unfortunately these games sometimes seem to attract a small minority which exhibit the worst sort of behavior.....and that small minority often ruins what would otherwise be very cool mehanics for everyone else by abusing thier intent. It really is a pitty that some players can't exhibit a better sense of maturity and sportsmenship toward others.
In short...just because a game has a FFA PvP ruleset doesn't mean that the designers intent was really that it devolve into a rabid gankfest....heck that pretty much ensures they are going to have a tough time retaining new players.... unforunately that's what many devolve into, unless heavly policed by the Devs.
Ok Doctor Phil you have it all wrong, i dont attack other players to upset them i attack other players because i enjoy it. someone getting upset by that seems very silly to me. i dont repeatedly gank someone, if i have killed the person then i tend to leave them alone the next time i see them unless they provoke or attack me first. Sorry but what i do in a pvp game doesnt define me as a person in real life.
I played lineage 2 for years so i know what im talking about. when that game was released high level players used come to the noob island and kill me or other newly joined players, when you died you would drop items and lose xp. but i didnt cry about it because i knew this when i joined the game. Lineage 2 was a FFA pvp game but it wasnt just about ganking it was about self policing by players, you had your pk'er and then you have pk killers. I didnt think the guy who killed me had some mental disorder, i just saw it as part of the game i was playing.
Ok but here's an interesting question. If you are say level 50.... do you enjoy taking on level 5 mobs? If not, then why would you enjoy taking on some player that has the same combat abilties as a level 5 mob?
I'm not trying to put you down or anything. I'm just honestly curious as to why you would derive enjoyment from taking on a player that had that significant a disaparity in abilities from you?
I know what I'm talking about too. I played a MUD called Gemstone for many years that had FFA PvP mechanics. However the GM's tightly policed it. If you went around killing people without cause (or even with cause if it got out of hand) you would get yanked out of the game, banned and even perma-banned if you ignored warnings. Especialy true if you went around killing lower level players.
The PvP mechanic existed in order people to RP conflicts (consentualy). The rule was that you didn't kill other people without thier consent. The Dev's made it very cleary to all players exactly what the expected rules of behavior were for the players before they played. Most nights there probably wasn't even a single PK incident in the game. When it did happen it was generaly between players who had agreed ahead of time to that kind of interaction and was well understood and RP'ed why it was happening. I was killed by another player or killed one myself probably no more then a dozen or two times in my 10 years there.
Worked great for that game...was one of largest and longest running commercial text based MUDS around...and had an awesome community.... but it only worked because the GM's kept a tight reign on PK behavior.
It's amazing how heated people get over the subject. To me ganking was killing a player who had little to no chance to win against his/her attacker - an imbalance of levels/abilities that clearly spelled out a quick loss for the person being ganked.
Griefers are those who go out of their way to disrupt another player's enjoyment of the game, be it via PvP or an in-game mechanic that allows them act this way. Most people associate griefers with PK camping. Griefing could just as easily be slaughtering quest mobs or NPC to keep the player from completing a quest/achievement/etc.
Do griefers project sociopathic tendencies? I would argue the point that the tendencies are more in line with being sadistic. Unless you're a trained psychologist or pyscho-therapist I would think it difficult to judge someone as having sociopathic tendencies based soley on their play style within an MMO.
If at first you don't succeed, pay someone who will.
Im glad we still have game like Darkfall where ganking is way of playing (full loot so its even harder then most games you play guys) and your victem most of time won't whine or cry about it.
I dont even see the problem in a game like WoW you dont lose anything only little setback and walk to your grave thats all.
Why choose a pvp server and then complain about ganked is beyond me this kind of playing is part of mmo's sinds UO so get use to it instead of whine and cry about it.
This topic is sad becouse you just hope it will make developers think again, and try everything to avoid you been ganked save carebear ass ingame so you and so many others dont cry or whine on forums about some pixels on your screen:P
For years you anti gankers came to Darkfall section saying you hate gankers while you dont even play such games is pathetic so much hate is so SAD:(
Its only a game people, learn to enjoy it having fun, no matter what playstyle please dont hate gankers its silly.
Cya ingame, but watch your back maybe ill gank you:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
fair & true pvp doesnt exist in mmorpg.
go play some CS/SC alike games.
Fun=winning
For 90% of humans. Yet people are so stupid and feel they win even thought their win is worth nothing since they just pressed a button and one shotted a 1 level player...
Having to hear kids brainorz trying to excuse themselves by saying what they are doing is skill demanding and requires planning and they won because of skill is pathetic, strategy and planning is words that these people should never use and defile them...
Fair pvp exists, but it also depends heavily on ingame balance of classes(assuming both players have top gear etc). Dueling is on way, the most satisfying skill based wins come from 1v1, and mostly dueling in an rpg, were both sides are ready and are going to fight full strenght, so the player who plays better wins. even if i lose a close fight, i am still happy since its actually a really indepth strategy and reflex contest(that always depends on the complexity of classes though)
I have played "fun" pvp=unfair. Its nice but its never something to be proud off. Its fun going playing with some people and killing other groups, but there is no true skill. Its just for lulz
The main reason for ganking for me is to annoy psychologically people i dont like aka people who go orc/undead/female tauren/troll(generally non-cute non-furry monsters). I do that because i believe they are playing a race that is so ugly i cant stand it, kill the fucking thing, its ugly, it shouldnt exist!!! Top model werewolves and bulls and smelly humans only!!!
Or just annoy stupid people who shout u ganking noob, these ppl are rly stupid and i like seeing how more stupid they can be by keep shouting xD
Not sarcasm, but you can downplay these problems as you see fit.
You assert assumptions, but you make no real allegations.
I can't tell you when 'you' have done things, because I haven't played a game with you that I am aware of. Freak bump into that we're not aware of aside.
If the game is an all out ffa free-for-all kill-athon, then that game is probably a shooter. Even Lineage 2 wasn't about just stabbing the crap out of other players.
Was it the centerpiece of the title? Yes!
Was that the only thing to do in it? Far from!
That 'far from' thing is the issue that one has to purposefully ignore in order to justify the idea that the game is condoning mindless slaughter. The fact that games like L2 have levels, xp, guild progression, etc that players can earn from PvP also reinforces this.
Killing a lowbie earns you what compared to killing someone your level or above? In games it's either a weak reward or no reward. And there's a reason for that. They are trying to dissuade people specifically from ganking people.
Can you still kill low level NPCs when you're 50? Yes!
Do you still kill low level NPCs every time you run by them? My guess is, no!
And why would that be? Because while it's allowed by the game's mechanics, there is neither incentive nor value to killing them or even harvesting resources from them most of the time. That's the exact same thing going on with players and layer killing. The only difference between the two is whether or not there's a person on the other side of the internet that you just arbitrarily murdured or a server.
They aren't going to outright remove the option to gank people because it's still a matter of freedom of choice, but that doesn't mean the titles condone it nor does it make the players doing it any less of dicks.
You mention player interaction, but that's the biggest pile of bull for an excuse you could make.
The only interaction that spawns reliably from ganking is trolling, rants, and whining. More often than not, the gankers just keep rolling until they're bored.
The second most common thing is they are either kicked off or bail because opposition is incoming.
The third most common thing is they have a scuffle with an equal level player or players and either win and keel ganking, or lose and leave.
It's low in the probability that any valuable conflict, reward, or even meaningful player interaction comes from it.
I also like how you place that ad hominem that I 'shouldn't place my finger in these types of games' when I very clearly have remarked on just how much I love and play PvP games.
Like the fact that my still favorite MMO is Planetside, which the only thing to do in that game is kill other players.
Like the fact that may favorite multiplayer game is Mount&Blade, which the only thing to do in that game is kill other players.
Games about fighting other people is paramount to my entertainment, because (as I always harp on) I need a challenge. PvE does not offer me a challenge, I can too easily parse the mechanics driving AI enemies and it becomes too formulaic and boring. Playing against other people is the only way for me to hope to find properly reactive and adaptable enemies, and I revel in it when I can find a well matched opponent.
The pivotal difference is I'm playing PvP for the challenge, because that's what I find fun.
What's being condoned here though is playing PvP to murder other players, which I don't find fun and just can't agree with.
So please, how is wishing for a fair fight in PvP where I can challenge evenly matched players do a duel of skill, both singularly and in large scale combat, a bid for no ffa or even PvP in general?
I call it having respect for the people I'm about to fight, it's the same reason I don't fight people in fencing, SCA, etc until they at least have a damn stick in their hands. Because that's the difference between 'fighting' someone and 'murdering' them.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
+1
Ganking is a perfectly legitimate playstyle imho, griefing is never legitimate and is, as you suggest, more akin to a kind of sadism.
By "legitimate" I mean from the point of view of the devs in the design they set up. MMORPGs, as the name suggests, are roleplaying games, so the "player killing" is avatar on avatar, and ganking is a legitimate part of that. Griefing is when it gets personal, and it's deliberately meant to annoy the other player in an OOC sense.
Even EVE, which is a ganker's paradise, doesn't allow griefing, it's a reportable offence. A lot of griefing means lots of players who love immersion and are likely to stick with a game long-term if they can have their kind of fun, will leave the game. Devs don't like that - doubly so, since griefers are more fickle, and flit more from game to game.
It's true that they can shade into each other, and maybe sometimes inadvertendly and innocently too (since a player killer can't always tell how "sensitive" the gankee is to trauma); but a grey line doesn't mean there's a bunch of stuff on either side of the mark that's pretty clear cut.
The "oh it's just pixels" argument doesn't hold water. These games are designed so you get immersed, so you live through the avatar, you roleplay. Not everyone's a hardcore roleplayer of course, but most players have some feeling of living in the game world, living through the career of their avatar. Loss should hurt, otherwise the designers haven't been doing their job. Griefing loss pulls a player out of immersion, and that's bad from the devs' point of view; ganking loss is fine, so long as it's vaguely in the spirit of the game (e.g. the ganker is a criminal, a pirate, or whatnot) and doesn't shade into sadistically targetting a player for repeated torture.
If you are a soldier in a war with someone, would you wait for them to attack you first? Would you spare the children who would one day grow up to usurp your power? If you want to win, the answer is no. Of course these games aren't as serious as the above two scenarios and should never be. But that is part of the roleplaying and immersion for many players. It's not fun, it's a "necessary" evil.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
When you know who your enemies are, that's one thing. Seeing another player who is a known enemy, in that you've encountered them before and they've been a threat, and/or they are apart of a clan that opposes yours, or are a different faction, etc.
And then there's FFA PvP, where you don't know who your enemies are, but can potentially be attacked by any of them, and consequently you can attack any of them. You do not know for certain if they are a threat or not, you can't tell their intentions.
If you're going from the 'war' scenario to put it into perspective, then I would liken the ganking of other players unable to defend themselves, who are not knowingly associated to any enemies, and whom are not directly competing with you over anything, to be pretty much the exact same as slaughtering civilians in war.
Yeah, whatever. I've never seen a ganker who wouldn't merrily camp out a spot like a quest objective if he thought you needed to get to it. The only question is how long it is before they get bored. That's griefing. And in my experience, it's the rule, not the exception. If you're not a threat to one of these jackals and they think they can get a few more chuckles at your expense because they've realized that you need to come back, for whatever reason, they ain't going nowhere until either you leave or someone bigger comes along and boots them out.
Ganking: the game that allows angsty, disaffected, basement-dwelling teenagers to fool themselves into thinking that they're anything more than just a waste of oxygen smothered in acne cream.
Well to me, this seems like a pointless thread, I mean why play on a PVP server if you dont want to be attacked when offguard, cuz thats basically the differences between PVP and PVE servers in most MMO's ive played.
Why be flagged on a PVE server when your not PVPing? Turn it off?
Ive never seen the point to PVP servers, there the same as PVE but you can be forced into pvp combat at any time.
It doesnt add realism to your factions cause, it just makes questing that little more time consuming and frustration when ur waiting for your death penalty to wear off or begging for money to fix your gear.
Simple solution:
PVE or RP servers, you choose when you want to pvp, what level to pvp against, saving you from being ganked!
Problem Solved.
So you do it from a role-playing perspective? That sounds perfectly legitimate to me, although I'll point out that the first rule of RP that I was ever taught (from my MUD/MUSH days) that you don't engage in any interaction that the other player doesn't consent to...and if there is any question about that you send a private OOC /tell or /whisper to the other player to confirm it first. Not telling anyone what to do....just explaining what I was taught about RP and good sportsmanship.
I will say honestly that in all my years of playing MMORPG's, I have yet to meet a "ganker" that gave the slightest hint that they had any inclination in role-playing. The most common interaction I've seen is "gank" followed by a string of OOC taunts against the player just ganked. Maybe it's just been my personal bad luck to always run into the worst sort of these players....and I never have run into the kind that were actualy RPing.... and If I did run into the latter, I don't think I'd actualy be annoyed at the "ganker" at all.... I might even get some enjoyment out of the encounter. But I'll tell you that I litteraly have never run into that sort of "ganker" while playing an MMORPG..... in MUDS/MUSHES...yes plenty of times... and was fine with it (really didn't even consider it "ganking") but MMORPG's...not once.
In the words of the great one... I gotta call em like I see em.