OP, it is human nature to be selfish. The minority are selfless. Even with mmo's, the most are geared toward soloists and selfishness, not community. Rift will be the same. You will find comfort with a more active guild, regardless of the game you play, but you will always, always be surrounded by people that are more selfish than you and within games that encourage selfishness, such as a predominently PvE solo-rpg-esque kind of game.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
In any case, I prefer to party with good people, even if we fail 50 times. Because of this I rarely do pick up groups.
That statement holds true to me. I can't stand pugs where everyone is all about performance and will cry if someone isn't geared properly. I would much rather play with older people who might not be as fast and must wipe the group then play with kids who complain about anything. I'm an easy going guy and ill stick in a group with someone a few lvls lower who isn't helping as much while stealing all the loot and it won't bother me, but when people start complaining its over. It just ruins the fun. I'm so glad that there are solo friendly MMOs so you can avoid groups like those and if you find a group of good people/friends it just makes it better.
MMORPG's suffer from the same social issues as the real world does. Its not anything new. It is worse in online games though, since real life ramifacations arent there. So what can we really do about it other than complain? Find people that you enjoy playing with, dont cause yourself undue stress over the fact that people are ass holes, and lead by example.
If people can solo, change names, change servers and there are no consequences for their actions they have no incentive to be nice or pretend to be nice. They can buy characters and make new ones to max level in a few weeks, why would they care if they are nice.
EQ generation and post-WoW generation players are completely different.
If you think MMO are bad, try playing on Xbox Live or PS3 online.
This, I feel for the OP but you won't find the kind of community it appears you (and I) seek in any MMO that is soloable past the earliest levels. Games with the quoted mechanics give no repercussions whatsoever to being completely selfish in game- even at endgame other players are little more than tools used to help the player get whatever he/she wants. Joining a likeminded guild/kinship, etc is only a band-aid because it doesn't change the real root of the problem.
Games without repercussions and without interdependency of players will always have poor communities.
I played LoTRO a bit before it went F2P (before playing a minstrel started to make my hands hurt), and it had one of the absolute best communities out there. Plenty of people always willing to help, answer questions, etc. It was one of the most friendly communities in MMORPGs.
I haven't tried it out since it went F2P though, I fear for it after your post here. Hopefully those friendly old timers haven't given up and you can meet a few. Good luck.
Yeah. Apparently it's not as obvious as it might seem that if one wants community, one should join a community ("kindred" in this case).
Before the super solo friendly MMOs of post-wow I never needed to join a guild to feel a Community.
As Bastinox said, if a player never needs 99.9999% of the other players in a game to "finsh it", aka get to end level and get good loot, they don't have to be nice and if anything being nice will only slow them down, so yes they will be shellfess jerks.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
I could ramble the 1000th time how humanity is a wretched race, prolly doomed to destroy itself, how most people out there are either barbarians with a VERY thin pastiche of civilization, a mask all to easy to break, or they are doing damage because they are simply dumb.
Or, to quote The Joker:
“The real joke is your stubborn, bone deep conviction that somehow, somewhere, all of this makes sense! That’s what cracks me up each time!”
But playing Advocatus Angelius, recently there was an article in the Science mag "GEO", which said that due to modern sciences what allowed humanity to ascend beyond animals and what really built civilization wasn't humans intelligence, but humanities empathy, the ability to feel sympathetic with someone else. No young spent so much time and need so much care from parents than humans, which greatly forms their perspective. Those scientists said, what really differs man from every animal is not his intelligence, but his capacity to help someone else without selfish profit. No other animal helps a stranger of the herd, unless there is some need, some gain. So indeed empathy and kindness are the very foundation of society. The alternative is living like animals, like wolves and cavemen. Only humans help a stranger with no personal gain. Or so they say, So humans are better than we think.
There you have two perspectives on the world. Which do you prefer?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
But playing Advocatus Angelius, recently there was an article in the Science mag "GEO", which said that due to modern sciences what allowed humanity to ascend beyond animals and what really built civilization wasn't humans intelligence, but humanities empathy, the ability to feel sympathetic with someone else. No young spent so much time and need so much care from parents than humans, which greatly forms their perspective. Those scientists said, what really differs man from every animal is not his intelligence, but his capacity to help someone else without selfish profit. No other animal helps a stranger of the herd, unless there is some need, some gain. So indeed empathy and kindness are the very foundation of society. The alternative is living like animals, like wolves and cavemen. Only humans help a stranger with no personal gain. Or so they say, So humans are better than we think.
I guess in that line of reasoning, some (a lot?) of people are closer to animals in character then, since these people lack discernable amounts of empathy or unselfishly helping others with no personal gain in mind (consciously or unconsciously)?
As someone once said to me, there are very few completely altruistic acts, if only it is to make you feel good about yourself or towards others.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
See, that's the problem. Altruism doesn't work for exactly what he described. He did something nice for someone else, and then he expected them to do something nice in return. Yes, it's nice to think that people will always do nice things without the need for anything in return, i.e. altruism, but that doesn't work because he expected somebody else to do things for him after he did that nice thing for them. I guess you could say he was altruistic while the others were selfish, but to expect something in return is not altruistic at all, in fact it is very selfish, and you become the very thing you started to hate. Life only works when people are naturally selfish, for example I was helping a noob in World of Warcraft with some information about professions and which ones to take, which could be constituted as altruism, but at the same time I was being selfish because I wanted to talk to someone and he was in the trade chat looking to talk to someone so I passively found him. After professions we talked about a little more in-game stuff, such as how I wanted to be a blood elf because I could "RP and be a jerk at the same time!" which we both laughed at. Of course there is selfishness to the extreme, but I believe what the OP is talking about is passive selfishness, not active. I think if you would've asked them for help, they probably would have helped you, at least after you helped them, if not they were being actively selfish which might be "bad", but you shouldn't ever get your hopes up when you are talking to strangers. Playing World of Warcraft most of the players I played with helped me a lot and I helped them a lot too and it felt good, but we kept an active dialogue and didn't expect anything from each other, other than what was originally talked about. The OP blows the issue way out of proportion simply because he didn't have the nerve to ask people for help.
All you did here was lay down the cold truth, Sanity888.
Awesome.
But people don't want to hear it. Everybody ignored you except for one person who actually got angry, but expressed it in hypothetical. You must be onto something, man.
"Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong." -- Oscar Wilde
Heh, I think many just didn't read his post. I didn't, I only read the OP and the last few posts of the thread.
What he says sounds true, making agreements is better with strangers, the OP poster made the mistake that people would behave and act like he did, which certainly many MMO gamers would do, but you can't count on strangers acting like that. However, if you talk with eachother about it, then it'll become more of a deal or arrangement.
Unselfishness can still work though, you can heal other gamers who you see need help without expecting anything in return, and even still wonder about the selfish nature of a community compared to how it was in other games. And it would certainly improve a server atmosphere if enough people would act more in unselfish attitude. But you can't expect people to behave like that.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
In its own way, I see nothing wrong with being 'selfish' per say. My issue is with basic manners....it is common for someone to be completely and unnecessarily rude to another gamer, just because they asked a question in general chat.
Is it too much to ask, that negative people just say nothing, instead of being rude to people where there really is no need?
Everyone has their own reasons for playing an MMO, for me its to take my mind off things and just have fun. Having fun to me means being courteous to others, because I have to play with them after all....and helping where I can.
I can understand how OP feel and think that there is something wrong with whole situation. I will agree that today's society (in the way of behavior) goes down at fast speed.
For me, first i never make difference between "player" and "person" becasue they are one. And in same way, i behave. That means that how i talk and behave in real life iam doing in game. Heck, in most games i even use my real name for char name.
And in past I behave like OP. I was very helpful to everyone, everywhere, i give much of my time and energy to be on service to others so after some time, in the end of day, i realize that there is nothing for me. My quests arent done, i didnt gather material what i need and after all, (sometimes) i only get few "thanks". I ask myself "why nobody offer/do something for me? Did i do something wrong?" So, with time I change. No, not because i start to feel hate, jelaousty or any bad emotions toward anyone. I simply realize that I dont feel good. So, I still help to ppl. And any time when I help, I absouletly dont expect anything in return. Not even "thanks". If someone say, that will make me happy, but if not it will not make me unhappy. But also, iam looking for my own goals. So, if iam going in area to do quest and see someone that is in desperate situation (low health, too much mobs), I help and continue my way. Throw some buffs also. But just because someone need help and is located on other side of map, I will not rush there.
Being helpful is highly positive thing, but being help addicted is negative. Ppl need to learn and understand to rely on themself first and if that isnt going then ask for help.
Also, you must say loudly your goals. If you need some item/quest to be done, you must say loudly, not expect that others will think for you and pat you all the time. I can summarize and say that you first must stand for yourself then you can stand for others.
Iam just couple years younger then OP and i play games for long time. And, as some of ppl say, i was there in vanilla wow when community was really helpfull. Also, tide of change come and thing change. For worse, but i know , that I cant change that. So, I adjust myself. I didnt change my behavior for one side to other. I still help to ppl, i answer questions on chat but Iam also chasing my goals (whatever they are).
This thread has actually inspired me to do an experiment.
I'm starting a new game which is about to launch and at the same time returning to a game I've been away from for a long time. I want to reinvent my characters as a type of Forrest Gump player who is innocent, positive, and naive.
At the same time, due to the nature of at least one of the games, I will have to engage in pvp, so that will give it an interesting twist.
If people can solo, change names, change servers and there are no consequences for their actions they have no incentive to be nice or pretend to be nice. They can buy characters and make new ones to max level in a few weeks, why would they care if they are nice.
EQ generation and post-WoW generation players are completely different.
If you think MMO are bad, try playing on Xbox Live or PS3 online.
Agree. The game mechanics will determine how people play the game.
Put a bone between two dogs and guess what will happen? Put a shiney sword between two loot starved nerds and guess what will also happen. Group a obsessive OCD min/maxer with people that just want to play and have fun and guess what will happen.
You can fix the effect without fixting the cause first.
This thread has actually inspired me to do an experiment.
I'm starting a new game which is about to launch and at the same time returning to a game I've been away from for a long time. I want to reinvent my characters as a type of Forrest Gump player who is innocent, positive, and naive.
At the same time, due to the nature of at least one of the games, I will have to engage in pvp, so that will give it an interesting twist.
if one of those games is eve, prepare for incoming scamfest hehe
(unless you join Uni or Agony)
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
This thread has actually inspired me to do an experiment.
I'm starting a new game which is about to launch and at the same time returning to a game I've been away from for a long time. I want to reinvent my characters as a type of Forrest Gump player who is innocent, positive, and naive.
At the same time, due to the nature of at least one of the games, I will have to engage in pvp, so that will give it an interesting twist.
if one of those games is eve, prepare for incoming scamfest hehe
(unless you join Uni or Agony)
Haha!
No, one of the games is Darkfall.
I have met mostly decent players there, in fact. But that doesn't hide the fact that the minority of players who are less than ideal community members do exist and are actively out there griefing players they know are much weaker than they are.
My character there is not really strong enough to be an avenger of the weak. And you know, those "weak" players can be demanding little junior griefers themselves, so as has been said, I'm just going to play it for my own satisfaction and not expect anything from anyone else.
Comments
OP, it is human nature to be selfish. The minority are selfless. Even with mmo's, the most are geared toward soloists and selfishness, not community. Rift will be the same. You will find comfort with a more active guild, regardless of the game you play, but you will always, always be surrounded by people that are more selfish than you and within games that encourage selfishness, such as a predominently PvE solo-rpg-esque kind of game.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
That statement holds true to me. I can't stand pugs where everyone is all about performance and will cry if someone isn't geared properly. I would much rather play with older people who might not be as fast and must wipe the group then play with kids who complain about anything. I'm an easy going guy and ill stick in a group with someone a few lvls lower who isn't helping as much while stealing all the loot and it won't bother me, but when people start complaining its over. It just ruins the fun. I'm so glad that there are solo friendly MMOs so you can avoid groups like those and if you find a group of good people/friends it just makes it better.
Make games you want to play.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RavikAztar
MMORPG's suffer from the same social issues as the real world does. Its not anything new. It is worse in online games though, since real life ramifacations arent there. So what can we really do about it other than complain? Find people that you enjoy playing with, dont cause yourself undue stress over the fact that people are ass holes, and lead by example.
This, I feel for the OP but you won't find the kind of community it appears you (and I) seek in any MMO that is soloable past the earliest levels. Games with the quoted mechanics give no repercussions whatsoever to being completely selfish in game- even at endgame other players are little more than tools used to help the player get whatever he/she wants. Joining a likeminded guild/kinship, etc is only a band-aid because it doesn't change the real root of the problem.
Games without repercussions and without interdependency of players will always have poor communities.
Sorry to hear it.
I played LoTRO a bit before it went F2P (before playing a minstrel started to make my hands hurt), and it had one of the absolute best communities out there. Plenty of people always willing to help, answer questions, etc. It was one of the most friendly communities in MMORPGs.
I haven't tried it out since it went F2P though, I fear for it after your post here. Hopefully those friendly old timers haven't given up and you can meet a few. Good luck.
Before the super solo friendly MMOs of post-wow I never needed to join a guild to feel a Community.
As Bastinox said, if a player never needs 99.9999% of the other players in a game to "finsh it", aka get to end level and get good loot, they don't have to be nice and if anything being nice will only slow them down, so yes they will be shellfess jerks.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Welcome to the Real-World OP.
From a gameplay perspective it is not in the company's best interest to 'force grouping'.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Welcome to planet earth...
I could ramble the 1000th time how humanity is a wretched race, prolly doomed to destroy itself, how most people out there are either barbarians with a VERY thin pastiche of civilization, a mask all to easy to break, or they are doing damage because they are simply dumb.
Or, to quote The Joker:
“The real joke is your stubborn, bone deep conviction that somehow, somewhere, all of this makes sense! That’s what cracks me up each time!”
But playing Advocatus Angelius, recently there was an article in the Science mag "GEO", which said that due to modern sciences what allowed humanity to ascend beyond animals and what really built civilization wasn't humans intelligence, but humanities empathy, the ability to feel sympathetic with someone else. No young spent so much time and need so much care from parents than humans, which greatly forms their perspective. Those scientists said, what really differs man from every animal is not his intelligence, but his capacity to help someone else without selfish profit. No other animal helps a stranger of the herd, unless there is some need, some gain. So indeed empathy and kindness are the very foundation of society. The alternative is living like animals, like wolves and cavemen. Only humans help a stranger with no personal gain. Or so they say, So humans are better than we think.
There you have two perspectives on the world. Which do you prefer?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I guess in that line of reasoning, some (a lot?) of people are closer to animals in character then, since these people lack discernable amounts of empathy or unselfishly helping others with no personal gain in mind (consciously or unconsciously)?
As someone once said to me, there are very few completely altruistic acts, if only it is to make you feel good about yourself or towards others.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
All you did here was lay down the cold truth, Sanity888.
Awesome.
But people don't want to hear it. Everybody ignored you except for one person who actually got angry, but expressed it in hypothetical. You must be onto something, man.
"Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong." -- Oscar Wilde
Heh, I think many just didn't read his post. I didn't, I only read the OP and the last few posts of the thread.
What he says sounds true, making agreements is better with strangers, the OP poster made the mistake that people would behave and act like he did, which certainly many MMO gamers would do, but you can't count on strangers acting like that. However, if you talk with eachother about it, then it'll become more of a deal or arrangement.
Unselfishness can still work though, you can heal other gamers who you see need help without expecting anything in return, and even still wonder about the selfish nature of a community compared to how it was in other games. And it would certainly improve a server atmosphere if enough people would act more in unselfish attitude. But you can't expect people to behave like that.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
In its own way, I see nothing wrong with being 'selfish' per say. My issue is with basic manners....it is common for someone to be completely and unnecessarily rude to another gamer, just because they asked a question in general chat.
Is it too much to ask, that negative people just say nothing, instead of being rude to people where there really is no need?
Everyone has their own reasons for playing an MMO, for me its to take my mind off things and just have fun. Having fun to me means being courteous to others, because I have to play with them after all....and helping where I can.
I can understand how OP feel and think that there is something wrong with whole situation. I will agree that today's society (in the way of behavior) goes down at fast speed.
For me, first i never make difference between "player" and "person" becasue they are one. And in same way, i behave. That means that how i talk and behave in real life iam doing in game. Heck, in most games i even use my real name for char name.
And in past I behave like OP. I was very helpful to everyone, everywhere, i give much of my time and energy to be on service to others so after some time, in the end of day, i realize that there is nothing for me. My quests arent done, i didnt gather material what i need and after all, (sometimes) i only get few "thanks". I ask myself "why nobody offer/do something for me? Did i do something wrong?" So, with time I change. No, not because i start to feel hate, jelaousty or any bad emotions toward anyone. I simply realize that I dont feel good. So, I still help to ppl. And any time when I help, I absouletly dont expect anything in return. Not even "thanks". If someone say, that will make me happy, but if not it will not make me unhappy. But also, iam looking for my own goals. So, if iam going in area to do quest and see someone that is in desperate situation (low health, too much mobs), I help and continue my way. Throw some buffs also. But just because someone need help and is located on other side of map, I will not rush there.
Being helpful is highly positive thing, but being help addicted is negative. Ppl need to learn and understand to rely on themself first and if that isnt going then ask for help.
Also, you must say loudly your goals. If you need some item/quest to be done, you must say loudly, not expect that others will think for you and pat you all the time. I can summarize and say that you first must stand for yourself then you can stand for others.
Iam just couple years younger then OP and i play games for long time. And, as some of ppl say, i was there in vanilla wow when community was really helpfull. Also, tide of change come and thing change. For worse, but i know , that I cant change that. So, I adjust myself. I didnt change my behavior for one side to other. I still help to ppl, i answer questions on chat but Iam also chasing my goals (whatever they are).
This thread has actually inspired me to do an experiment.
I'm starting a new game which is about to launch and at the same time returning to a game I've been away from for a long time. I want to reinvent my characters as a type of Forrest Gump player who is innocent, positive, and naive.
At the same time, due to the nature of at least one of the games, I will have to engage in pvp, so that will give it an interesting twist.
Agree. The game mechanics will determine how people play the game.
Put a bone between two dogs and guess what will happen? Put a shiney sword between two loot starved nerds and guess what will also happen. Group a obsessive OCD min/maxer with people that just want to play and have fun and guess what will happen.
You can fix the effect without fixting the cause first.
if one of those games is eve, prepare for incoming scamfest hehe
(unless you join Uni or Agony)
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Or may be if you cannot fight them, join them.
Just rage-quit and ninja some in random dungeon group with people you will never see again. It can be fun.
Haha!
No, one of the games is Darkfall.
I have met mostly decent players there, in fact. But that doesn't hide the fact that the minority of players who are less than ideal community members do exist and are actively out there griefing players they know are much weaker than they are.
My character there is not really strong enough to be an avenger of the weak. And you know, those "weak" players can be demanding little junior griefers themselves, so as has been said, I'm just going to play it for my own satisfaction and not expect anything from anyone else.