Why? Why do we need to compare one mmo to the next?
Why can't you guys play a mmo, take from the game what you like and play the game until you no longer enjoy it and move on?
Why do we need to over analyze every feature with another games feature?
You will never be able to enjoy a game if you do that.
That's just a function of the way the human brain works. EVERYTHING we done is with comparisons. Everything.
Why is something hot? Because in our mind we have compiled what the temperature of something should be, and we call something hot in relation to that.
Hot icecream and hot soup are two different kinds of hot, but our minds constantly feel a need to peg everything in comparison to something else.
Upcoming movies are pitched that way 'It's like Field of Dreams meets the Matrix'. Food is described that way 'It tastes like Chicken'. Games are described that way 'It's like Super Mario Bros. but you run fast and you're a blue hedgehog'
Even if it's inaccurate, we need to categorize things, to put them in order, to know how one thing stacks up against another. Most people can instantly answer if they like Coke or Pepsi more... if they prefer one color or another, if they like one MMORPG or another. New things are compared to old things, and so on.
Sorry that human behavior bothers you so much though. I personally compare everything all the time, I'm just good at enjoying something ANYWAY.
It doesn't bother me. I take the good from these games and enjoy them for as long as I can. It's just sad that you guys will never enjoy anything because everytime you load up a mmo you will be comparing it to EQ or WoW feature for feature.
These games are supposed to be fun, I think people just take them way too seriously.
If I did what you guys do I would never have played Games like SSF4 because Alpha 3 is better, Never had a good time playing Bioshock because System shock was better or never gotten into any bioware rpg because they're all inferior to BG2.
I'm sorry but life is just too short to ruin every gaming experience because one game has similar or worse features than the last.
Why? Why do we need to compare one mmo to the next?
Why can't you guys play a mmo, take from the game what you like and play the game until you no longer enjoy it and move on?
Why do we need to over analyze every feature with another games feature?
You will never be able to enjoy a game if you do that.
That's just a function of the way the human brain works. EVERYTHING we done is with comparisons. Everything.
Why is something hot? Because in our mind we have compiled what the temperature of something should be, and we call something hot in relation to that.
Hot icecream and hot soup are two different kinds of hot, but our minds constantly feel a need to peg everything in comparison to something else.
Upcoming movies are pitched that way 'It's like Field of Dreams meets the Matrix'. Food is described that way 'It tastes like Chicken'. Games are described that way 'It's like Super Mario Bros. but you run fast and you're a blue hedgehog'
Even if it's inaccurate, we need to categorize things, to put them in order, to know how one thing stacks up against another. Most people can instantly answer if they like Coke or Pepsi more... if they prefer one color or another, if they like one MMORPG or another. New things are compared to old things, and so on.
Sorry that human behavior bothers you so much though. I personally compare everything all the time, I'm just good at enjoying something ANYWAY.
It doesn't bother me. I take the good from these games and enjoy them for as long as I can. It's just sad that you guys will never enjoy anything because everytime you load up a mmo you will be comparing it to EQ or WoW feature for feature.
These games are supposed to be fun, I think people just take them way too seriously.
If I did what you guys do I would never have played Games like SSF4 because Alpha 3 is better, Never had a good time playing Bioshock because System shock was better or never gotten into any bioware rpg because they're all inferior to BG2.
I'm sorry but life is just too short to ruin every gaming experience because one game has similar or worse features than the last.
Then stop making MMOs that are so similiar to EQ or WoW
Sorry had to ; )
I still don't understand why you think because we compare MMOs, that we can't enjoy them.. If I didnt enjoy MMOs, i doubt i would be on the site.....
It doesn't bother me. I take the good from these games and enjoy them for as long as I can. It's just sad that you guys will never enjoy anything because everytime you load up a mmo you will be comparing it to EQ or WoW feature for feature.
These games are supposed to be fun, I think people just take them way too seriously.
If I did what you guys do I would never have played Games like SSF4 because Alpha 3 is better, Never had a good time playing Bioshock because System shock was better or never gotten into any bioware rpg because they're all inferior to BG2.
I'm sorry but life is just too short to ruin every gaming experience because one game has similar or worse features than the last.
Hey, don't say 'you guys' and 'you people', I specifically said that despite overanalyzing everything, I enjoy things anyway!
You compare things yourself, you know, it's just that like me, you don't let it bother you. In fact, technically I'm probably one of 'you guys' and lumped in with you.
If you couldn't compare things you'd be incapable of determining the difference between a pile of crap and a sandwich. The trick is to not let one good sandwich ruin all other sandwiches for you (It's acceptable if it ruins piles of crap for you.)
(I guess in the interest of full disclosure, I don't really like most MMORPGs enough to pay a sub (It's why I'll dabble in open betas and F2P games), but that's not because I'm comparing them to other MMORPGs, it's because I don't think they're worth my money just in general and I dislike renting games.)
There are people on this forum that simply wont let themselves have fun in a game because a couple features in said game arent as good or too similar to the last.
Lets use Rift as an example. The game puts a new spin on the talent tree, role swaping system. Its added in dynamic group content throughout its entire leveling experience.
Yet the new is glazed over because the game uses the same questing formula of older games...
They refuse to let themselves enjoy any feature because it feels similar to that of WoW or WAR.
Just completely glaze over the fact that the games dungeon content is really well done, glaze over that the games actual storyline is pretty cool (dude time traveling defiant story is bad ass!).
Its come to the point that if a new game has an action bar and a mini-map in the top corner of the UI its slammed instantly.
Never mind that the game overall is very good, lets focus on small features and totally destroy any fun we could have had with the game.
This doesnt only happen in the rift forums, its been happening since 2004.
Being so critical over every little feature in a game, only leads to the player hating a game and glazing over anything thats positive in it.
It doesn't bother me. I take the good from these games and enjoy them for as long as I can. It's just sad that you guys will never enjoy anything because everytime you load up a mmo you will be comparing it to EQ or WoW feature for feature.
These games are supposed to be fun, I think people just take them way too seriously.
If I did what you guys do I would never have played Games like SSF4 because Alpha 3 is better, Never had a good time playing Bioshock because System shock was better or never gotten into any bioware rpg because they're all inferior to BG2.
I'm sorry but life is just too short to ruin every gaming experience because one game has similar or worse features than the last.
Hey, don't say 'you guys' and 'you people', I specifically said that despite overanalyzing everything, I enjoy things anyway!
You compare things yourself, you know, it's just that like me, you don't let it bother you. In fact, technically I'm probably one of 'you guys' and lumped in with you.
If you couldn't compare things you'd be incapable of determining the difference between a pile of crap and a sandwich. The trick is to not let one good sandwich ruin all other sandwiches for you (It's acceptable if it ruins piles of crap for you.)
(I guess in the interest of full disclosure, I don't really like most MMORPGs enough to pay a sub (It's why I'll dabble in open betas and F2P games), but that's not because I'm comparing them to other MMORPGs, it's because I don't think they're worth my money just in general and I dislike renting games.)
I didnt mean you specifically just anyone that ruins any enjoyment they could have in a game because they over analyze everything. It wasnt an attack on you personally.
There are people on this forum that simply wont let themselves have fun in a game because a couple features in said game arent as good or too similar to the last.
Lets use Rift as an example. The game puts a new spin on the talent tree, role swaping system. Its added in dynamic group content throughout its entire leveling experience.
Yet the new is glazed over because the game uses the same questing formula of older games...
They refuse to let themselves enjoy any feature because it feels similar to that of WoW or WAR.
Just completely glaze over the fact that the games dungeon content is really well done, glaze over that the games actual storyline is pretty cool (dude time traveling defiant story is bad ass!).
Its come to the point that if a new game has an action bar and a mini-map in the top corner of the UI its slammed instantly.
Never mind that the game overall is very good, lets focus on small features and totally destroy any fun we could have had with the game.
This doesnt only happen in the rift forums, its been happening since 2004.
Being so critical over every little feature in a game, only leads to the player hating a game and glazing over anything thats positive in it.
I honestly think some of it comes from something as simple as people who like to complain and be heard... doesn't matter what it's about.
Many people also love being offended... again... just for the opportunity to get out a megaphone and "be heard!". I mean look at the degree of righteous indignation some people spout out on these forums. You'd think the government came into their house, took all their money and kidnapped their family (okay, exaggerated.. but you get the idea :-p). I hardly believe these people are really *that* affected by a game.. If they are... well.. that's a whole other story.
Speaking for myself, I've known or at least spoken to a large number of people who will trash, bash and slam a MMO every day, every time you talk to them... yet they're playing it. They don't really hate the game. They just like to complain. A guy I knew in FFXI has been playing for about 6 years now. Has been complaining about it - everything about it - for the past 4 at least. Guaranteed if I logged in tonight, he'd be online.... still playing... still complaining.
Some people aren't playing the game and have no intention of playing the game.. they just like to hop on the "me-too" bandwagon.
In short.. I wouldn't put equal weight in every complaint you see. A lot of it, I suspect, is idle hot air.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You're not the minority Kyleraan, if you were those people playing WoW would have quit long ago or force Blizzard to upgrade their dated graphics engine.
I believe people like me who want the best posible looking world our computers can handle are the minority. Very few games push the boundaries of what's achievable with today's machines, most of the being single player games. I remember back in the days of EQ2 and SWG, no computer could handle the ultra settings. Nowadays, we not only demand that our current computers can play everything on ultra, but that they are lighning fast as well.
Scalability for most folks is an afterthought.
I see what you are saying, in fact, the excuse that too much money is spent on the more complicated graphics of today's games is actually false. As evidenced by WOW, players will accept graphics that should be fairly easy to emulate with today's technology leaving more money to add features and better gameplay.
Guess all the money is being spent on Ferrarri's and Gaming Conventions.
Yeah, I agree, the argument that the graphics force us to leave out in depth features is weak. They are being left out by intelligent (or perhaps not intelligent) design as they've been deemed as undesireable by the target subscriber audience. (no return on the investment)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, it depends. I think it's a triangle between three things:
Content (zones, instances)
Features (things to do in the content)
Structure (server stability, scalability etc.)
When on a limited budget, a responsible developer limits one of the three so as to have a solid foundation with the other two. Structure, what I would also call as polish, is a good focus point. It then goes between either adding big maps and beautiful vistas that are empty and/or generic or you add small maps but overload them with things to do. It's probably better to start small and expand little by little, than start big and then run left and right to fill the world.
A good deal of developers just overload their developer sheet with content and features, with the end result the structure aka polish to sufer.
There's a rule of thumb in engineering that states, more or less, that you can make something with two out of the following three:
There are people on this forum that simply wont let themselves have fun in a game because a couple features in said game arent as good or too similar to the last.
Lets use Rift as an example. The game puts a new spin on the talent tree, role swaping system. Its added in dynamic group content throughout its entire leveling experience.
Yet the new is glazed over because the game uses the same questing formula of older games...
They refuse to let themselves enjoy any feature because it feels similar to that of WoW or WAR.
Just completely glaze over the fact that the games dungeon content is really well done, glaze over that the games actual storyline is pretty cool (dude time traveling defiant story is bad ass!).
Its come to the point that if a new game has an action bar and a mini-map in the top corner of the UI its slammed instantly.
Never mind that the game overall is very good, lets focus on small features and totally destroy any fun we could have had with the game.
This doesnt only happen in the rift forums, its been happening since 2004.
Being so critical over every little feature in a game, only leads to the player hating a game and glazing over anything thats positive in it.
Somehow, I knew we'd end up here....
Simply put, I compare every MMO I play to MMOs I used to play..I can't help it.
Will I play Rift? No i won't...
Ok Their Dungeons content may be really well done, and their storyline may be pretty cool.. But in comparing it to other games, I have already done this countless times.
Let me compare their dungeon to say, WOWs, I'm not saying i must play/or not play Rift because theirs is a lil different, perhaps even slightly better. I'm comparing the two, because i need something more than this in my MMO.
Its gotten really old shoe for me... personal opinion.
Perhaps Rift is a lil better than WoW in all aspects, but I'm not playing it because its been done to death.
What am i looking for? I'm not sure, but Rift doesn't have it.
So I'll pass, thank you.
Edit: I'm just using wow as an example, and i may regret that
There are people on this forum that simply wont let themselves have fun in a game because a couple features in said game arent as good or too similar to the last.
Lets use Rift as an example. The game puts a new spin on the talent tree, role swaping system. Its added in dynamic group content throughout its entire leveling experience.
Yet the new is glazed over because the game uses the same questing formula of older games...
They refuse to let themselves enjoy any feature because it feels similar to that of WoW or WAR.
Just completely glaze over the fact that the games dungeon content is really well done, glaze over that the games actual storyline is pretty cool (dude time traveling defiant story is bad ass!).
Its come to the point that if a new game has an action bar and a mini-map in the top corner of the UI its slammed instantly.
Never mind that the game overall is very good, lets focus on small features and totally destroy any fun we could have had with the game.
This doesnt only happen in the rift forums, its been happening since 2004.
Being so critical over every little feature in a game, only leads to the player hating a game and glazing over anything thats positive in it.
Somehow, I knew we'd end up here....
Simply put, I compare every MMO I play to MMOs I used to play..I can't help it.
Will I play Rift? No i won't...
Ok Their Dungeons content may be really well done, and their storyline may be pretty cool.. But in comparing it to other games, I have already done this countless times.
let me compare their dungeon to say, WoWs, I'm not saying i must play/or not play Rift because theirs is a lil different, perhaps even slightly better. I'm comparing it, because i need something more.
Its gotten really old shoe for me.
What am i looking for? I'm not sure, but Rift doesn't have it.
So I'll pass, thank you.
I was only using it as an example because its the hottest topic at the moment. I could have put any other game that released after wow in its place. Lotro, WAR, Aion, AoC... anything.
I wasn't trying to sell rift or anything, I do think your doing yourself a disservice by thinking that way though.
Because a game you used to play had dungeons, raids and linear questing doesnt mean you can't have a new experience or a good time in a new game that follows the same formula.
The world is new, the story is new, the dungeons are new, the raids are new, the class system is different, the content as you level is different. The structure may be the same but the game play experience is all new.
To say you've done this before, only robs you of a fun experience that you could of had if you didnt take one glance at the structure of the game and just discredit it as a whole as nothing you havent done before. Which is false, because you've never played Rift before. Same goes for those other games.
This is exactly why I stopped reading all those Rift threads. People suck the fun out of everything and make you feel bad. Hell I am not blind I see it but I am not going to dwell on things. I am going to enjoy the games that are coming the best I can. Hell I am as old achool as they come played Everquest from 1999. Things people do to destroy their fun is mind boggling.
the casual gamer, who plays maybe 2 hours a day to relax from work. this kind of player is the majority of the mmog-customer and most of the post 2004 games try to target him. the wow-fanboy, who thinks that wow was the big bang and mmorpg didn't even exists before or fans of the genre, f.e. the people on this board, who mainly played mmorpg since uo and eq.
and the hunt for the casual gamer isn't over yet. even for this year the industry expect a 20% growth-rate from the mmog market (german numbers). there are a lot of first-timers into browser games and the logical conclusion is that sooner or later you will see them in client based mmog too. and as long as the industry thinks that they only catch them with easy to play and adept themeparks, they will invest in such projects. the wow-fanboy will always compare new themepark games with his 'holy grail', with the game that took his virginity. and, well, let him because he has all the rights to do it. i also compare my partners with the one i had my best sex-experience. and the mmorpg-fans, well, most of them played a lot of games, not to mention all the betas they were into, they nearly saw all kind of concepts and features.
i like to see myself as fan of the genre and i need a game in which i can stay longer than 3-4 month. to be honest, i don't mind if its fantasy or scifi, if it does have the usual class- and skillsystem or older graphics, what i need is a huge world like in vanguard, a territorial pvp system like in eve, crafting and property ownership like in istaria (horizons), a playerbased economy, housing like eqII, a guildsystems that isn't invented yet, a pve storyline like lotro and a serverperformance like rift .......as you can see, no game will be ever good enough for me :-)
I was only using it as an example because its the hottest topic at the moment. I could have put any other game that released after wow in its place. Lotro, WAR, Aion, AoC... anything.
I wasn't trying to sell rift or anything, I do think your doing yourself a disservice by thinking that way though.
Because a game you used to play had dungeons, raids and linear questing doesnt mean you can't have a new experience or a good time in a new game that follows the same formula.
The world is new, the story is new, the dungeons are new, the raids are new, the class system is different, the content as you level is different. The structure may be the same but the game play experience is all new.
To say you've done this before, only robs you of a fun experience that you could of had if you didnt take one glance at the structure of the game and just discredit it as a whole as nothing you havent done before. Which is false, because you've never played Rift before. Same goes for those other games.
I'll end this part with this post, because we are really beggining to hijack this thread....
I played Rift to level 20, and it felt monotonous. Is that enough to get a feel for the game? Maybe, maybe not.
Its me, and my opinion. I'll keep an eye on it, and maybe if I see endgame brings something new to the table down the road, I'll give it another shot.
There has to be something in a game that brings a community together and encourages community. Otherwise, why play an MMO? Just to have victims to gank or non-AI-players to help you with your quests so you can get your gear?
No MMO will be good enough unless there is a community and a world for them to build and inhabit.
Granted, gameplay is important. But it needs to be simple and functional and offer enough options for enough different types of people to want to play. When you have this kind of
DIVERSITY in the player base
people will stay with that game for years and years. They will be devoted to that world and it will grow and prosper.
I was only using it as an example because its the hottest topic at the moment. I could have put any other game that released after wow in its place. Lotro, WAR, Aion, AoC... anything.
I wasn't trying to sell rift or anything, I do think your doing yourself a disservice by thinking that way though.
Because a game you used to play had dungeons, raids and linear questing doesnt mean you can't have a new experience or a good time in a new game that follows the same formula.
The world is new, the story is new, the dungeons are new, the raids are new, the class system is different, the content as you level is different. The structure may be the same but the game play experience is all new.
To say you've done this before, only robs you of a fun experience that you could of had if you didnt take one glance at the structure of the game and just discredit it as a whole as nothing you havent done before. Which is false, because you've never played Rift before. Same goes for those other games.
I'll end this part with this post, because we are really beggining to hijack this thread....
I played Rift to level 20, and it felt monotonous. Is that enough to get a feel for the game? Maybe, maybe not.
Its me, and my opinion. I'll keep an eye on it, and maybe if I see endgame brings something new to the table down the road, I'll give it another shot.
/shrug
I never said anything about playing the game to a certain level to get a "feel" for it.
I also dont see how this is hijacking as Rift is the perfect example of people letting their passed experiences ruin a new game.
We look over a new game so closely, we grab that magnifying glass and compare and compare. We look for the flaws and one flaw outwieghs 10 positives.
Instead of looking at a games skeletal structure (leveling, quests, dungeons, instanced pvp, classes) and entirely judging a game like that. I would hope that people would notice other things. Like storyline, the experience they have playing through content in the open world, or what they experienced playing through dungeons.
Dont shoot a game down because it has quests... or if it has pvp mini-games. Try the quests, read the storylines. Queue up for a pvp mini-game and see if its actually fun.
I mean, why even play these games if your going to instantly judge a game on its overall structure?
"OMG! This game has questing! Classes! Tab target combat and Raids!!!! WOW CLONE!!! BEEN THERE DONE THAT!!!!"
Its wrong in my opinion. I dont know maybe i have a gift, maybe im capable of actually playing a game and seeing what it has to offer over its basic play structure.
I read these posts everyday, and more and more I'm glad I dont just judge a game on its basics like that.
I was only using it as an example because its the hottest topic at the moment. I could have put any other game that released after wow in its place. Lotro, WAR, Aion, AoC... anything.
I wasn't trying to sell rift or anything, I do think your doing yourself a disservice by thinking that way though.
Because a game you used to play had dungeons, raids and linear questing doesnt mean you can't have a new experience or a good time in a new game that follows the same formula.
The world is new, the story is new, the dungeons are new, the raids are new, the class system is different, the content as you level is different. The structure may be the same but the game play experience is all new.
To say you've done this before, only robs you of a fun experience that you could of had if you didnt take one glance at the structure of the game and just discredit it as a whole as nothing you havent done before. Which is false, because you've never played Rift before. Same goes for those other games.
I'll end this part with this post, because we are really beggining to hijack this thread....
I played Rift to level 20, and it felt monotonous. Is that enough to get a feel for the game? Maybe, maybe not.
Its me, and my opinion. I'll keep an eye on it, and maybe if I see endgame brings something new to the table down the road, I'll give it another shot.
/shrug
I never said anything about playing the game to a certain level to get a "feel" for it.
I also dont see how this is hijacking as Rift is the perfect example of people letting their passed experiences ruin a new game.
We look over a new game so closely, we grab that magnifying glass and compare and compare. We look for the flaws and one flaw outwieghs 10 positives.
Instead of looking at a games skeletal structure (leveling, quests, dungeons, instanced pvp, classes) and entirely judging a game like that. I would hope that people would notice other things. Like storyline, the experience they have playing through content in the open world, or what they experienced playing through dungeons.
Dont shoot a game down because it has quests... or if it has pvp mini-games. Try the quests, read the storylines. Queue up for a pvp mini-game and see if its actually fun.
I mean, why even play these games if your going to instantly judge a game on its overall structure?
"OMG! This game has questing! Classes! Tab target combat and Raids!!!! WOW CLONE!!! BEEN THERE DONE THAT!!!!"
Its wrong in my opinion. I dont know maybe i have a gift, maybe im capable of actually playing a game and seeing what it has to offer over its basic play structure.
I read these posts everyday, and more and more I'm glad I dont just judge a game on its basics like that.
Thats the problem I have with the flames of games like Rift, Lotro and WAR.
Just judging a game on basic structure and not how different that actual experience is.
I would challenge any of those people to give me detailed information on any of those games storylines, zone for zone or their experiences on the games dungeons or pvp mini-games and they wouldnt be able to do it, or they would google something real fast and give a half assed answer.
Its a fact, they see a mini-map, an action bar, fill their quest log and give up saying a game is a clone.
I see it everyday, and those people are only ruinning a potentially fun experience for themselves and I think its sad.
And these are the people that will never be happy in this genre again.
You will always log into a game and see similar mechanics, see something that reminds you of a game you played to death.
Thats the problem I have with the flames of games like Rift, Lotro and WAR.
Just judging a game on basic structure and not how different that actual experience is.
I would challenge any of those people to give me detailed information on any of those games storylines, zone for zone or their experiences on the games dungeons or pvp mini-games and they wouldnt be able to do it, or they would google something real fast and give a half assed answer.
Its a fact, they see a mini-map, an action bar, fill their quest log and give up saying a game is a clone.
I see it everyday, and those people are only ruinning a potentially fun experience for themselves and I think its sad.
And these are the people that will never be happy in this genre again.
You will always log into a game and see similar mechanics, see something that reminds you of a game you played to death.
You're absolutly right....
but maybe those similarities are too pronounced... and thats whats ruinning a potentially fun experience?
As long as players keep comparing freshly released games to ones that released three years ago, they will be too dissappointed to like the game.
Its technically impossible for a MMO to release with just as much content and polish as a mmo that has been in market for 3-6 years yet people still keep expecting that of them.
Which means you have release a game good enough to hang in there for three years, and make enough money to pay for upkeep, fixing bugs, streamling features, and expansions.
As long as players keep comparing freshly released games to ones that released three years ago, they will be too dissappointed to like the game.
Its technically impossible for a MMO to release with just as much content and polish as a mmo that has been in market for 3-6 years yet people still keep expecting that of them.
Which means you have release a game good enough to hang in there for three years, and make enough money to pay for upkeep, fixing bugs, streamling features, and expansions.
That's not the challenge.
The challenge is to release something which doesn't seem like a clone of another game.
The reason why there's so much comparison-to-older-established-MMO is because most companies making MMOs are effectively copy+pasting the general design of the MMO from these older, established ones.
And that flat out fails precisely because they cannot compare to the established and polished ones.
If companies would stop releasing WoW-Clone-#562 then there'd be a lot less complaining about games; but as it is, people get (understandably) irritated by having so many clones around the place. I know I'm sick of class-based, dps-healer-tank centric grouping, fantasy game #192384192142134854920312.
Thats the problem I have with the flames of games like Rift, Lotro and WAR.
Just judging a game on basic structure and not how different that actual experience is.
I would challenge any of those people to give me detailed information on any of those games storylines, zone for zone or their experiences on the games dungeons or pvp mini-games and they wouldnt be able to do it, or they would google something real fast and give a half assed answer.
I agree with you very much here. I firmly believe that in most cases, people are the cause of their own misery (read: lack of enjoyment) of a game.
In FFXI there has been upwards of 20 or so different activities... completely separate, different rulesets, different settings, different goals, different rewards. So much to do that I would argue someone could start the game fresh today and still have tons left to do in 2 years time, playing consistently.
Yet, time and again, people would claim FFXI was "nothing but a shallow level grind with nothing else to do". It would take very little "digging", getting them to qualify their remark only to find that they spent most all their time doing... you guessed it... grinding levels. Remind them (as I did) of all the other options they have and a common response (from the same people) was "I don't care about all that. It doesn't give xp as fast as grinding mobs does". Once again, their response underscores their problem: All they cared about was getting xp and leveling.
Yet... point out to them that maybe the reason the game feels like a grind is because they're playing it like one and they act all indignant and insulted. How dare you point out something obvious that they they don't want to admit! They're offended!!!
And we see the same type of scenario play out over and again, from game to game, from situation to situation. People keep banging their own fingers with a hammer... then blame the hammer manufacturer for their injuries.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Thats the problem I have with the flames of games like Rift, Lotro and WAR.
Just judging a game on basic structure and not how different that actual experience is.
I would challenge any of those people to give me detailed information on any of those games storylines, zone for zone or their experiences on the games dungeons or pvp mini-games and they wouldnt be able to do it, or they would google something real fast and give a half assed answer.
I agree with you very much here. I firmly believe that in most cases, people are the cause of their own misery (read: lack of enjoyment) of a game.
In FFXI there has been upwards of 20 or so different activities... completely separate, different rulesets, different settings, different goals, different rewards. So much to do that I would argue someone could start the game fresh today and still have tons left to do in 2 years time, playing consistently.
Yet, time and again, people would claim FFXI was "nothing but a shallow level grind with nothing else to do". It would take very little "digging", getting them to qualify their remark only to find that they spent most all their time doing... you guessed it... grinding levels. Remind them (as I did) of all the other options they have and a common response (from the same people) was "I don't care about all that. It doesn't give xp as fast as grinding mobs does". Once again, their response underscores their problem: All they cared about was getting xp and leveling.
Yet... point out to them that maybe the reason the game feels like a grind is because they're playing it like one and they act all indignant and insulted. How dare you point out something obvious that they they don't want to admit! They're offended!!!
And we see the same type of scenario play out over and again, from game to game, from situation to situation. People keep banging their own fingers with a hammer... then blame the hammer manufacturer for their injuries.
First, it's not about the details. It's about the general gameplay.
Second, people want things to have meaning. They don't want to just grow crops, they want those craps to have meaning in the game world. They want to make money off that as surely as a blacksmith makes money selling swords. When the game play is just about the grind (read this to mean levels from zone to zone, control dictated by the game design), then the other stuff doesn't have any meaning. And they "don't care about that" in that reference.
As long as players keep comparing freshly released games to ones that released three years ago, they will be too dissappointed to like the game.
Its technically impossible for a MMO to release with just as much content and polish as a mmo that has been in market for 3-6 years yet people still keep expecting that of them.
Yes! the MMORPG gener would be alot better if we did not compare them all to WoW ROFL!!!! but on serious note it would be better if we don't compare and take them as is what is and enjoy, don't allow comparing take you away fron a new MMORPG, I never ever let that happen to me, a new MMO is a new MMO no matter what, I may say "this MMORPG is similar" but thats it.
MMOs are about perspective. Usually, when a person starts an MMO for the first time and it is ALSO their first MMO they tend to like it the most. This is simply because this is all they've ever known. Their perspective is only focused on what they have now. If you only have 1 thing then that's the best you'll ever have.
A person gets into the game...levels up, gets weapons, is involved in the community...etc. A new MMO comes on line. Depending on how long a person has played and biased they've become determines how that new MMO will be received. Comparisons between MMOs can ONLY happen when people have played two or more MMOs. So, a person's first MMO will usually cause them to be biased to that one and no other MMO will ever "live up to" their favorite. Hell, it doesn't even matter if they are fundamentaly different games, only that they have MMO as a description.
MMOs are about perspective. Usually, when a person starts an MMO for the first time and it is ALSO their first MMO they tend to like it the most. This is simply because this is all they've ever known. Their perspective is only focused on what they have now. If you only have 1 thing then that's the best you'll ever have.
A person gets into the game...levels up, gets weapons, is involved in the community...etc. A new MMO comes on line. Depending on how long a person has played and biased they've become determines how that new MMO will be received. Comparisons between MMOs can ONLY happen when people have played two or more MMOs. So, a person's first MMO will usually cause them to be biased to that one and no other MMO will ever "live up to" their favorite. Hell, it doesn't even matter if they are fundamentaly different games, only that they have MMO as a description.
I agree with this. As someone that has tried countless MMO's, I still haven't found one that gives me the same feeling that I had with my first MMO. It's all about perspective as you stated.
Any time I try a new MMO for the first time, I try my damnedest to go into with an open mind. It's extremely hard to do though. In all honesty, I'm only looking for one thing. I want that feeling I had so long ago. It's not about game structure or graphics or pieces of the puzzle like that. My first MMO was SWG (flamesuit on). I played for 5.5 years. During the last year or two, I experimented with other MMO's. None gave me that same feeling. I still test MMO's quite frequently today, but alas none has made it more than a couple of weeks.
This may sound weird, but this is what I want in a MMO. I want to feel like I'm actually living in my fantasy world, not just playing a game. I hope this makes sense to someone out there searching like myself. In hindsight, it takes so many pieces to come together to make that happen, and it varies depending on who you ask. Give me that, and I'll gladly pay any monthly fee that the game charges.
Comments
It doesn't bother me. I take the good from these games and enjoy them for as long as I can. It's just sad that you guys will never enjoy anything because everytime you load up a mmo you will be comparing it to EQ or WoW feature for feature.
These games are supposed to be fun, I think people just take them way too seriously.
If I did what you guys do I would never have played Games like SSF4 because Alpha 3 is better, Never had a good time playing Bioshock because System shock was better or never gotten into any bioware rpg because they're all inferior to BG2.
I'm sorry but life is just too short to ruin every gaming experience because one game has similar or worse features than the last.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Then stop making MMOs that are so similiar to EQ or WoW
Sorry had to ; )
I still don't understand why you think because we compare MMOs, that we can't enjoy them.. If I didnt enjoy MMOs, i doubt i would be on the site.....
Hey, don't say 'you guys' and 'you people', I specifically said that despite overanalyzing everything, I enjoy things anyway!
You compare things yourself, you know, it's just that like me, you don't let it bother you. In fact, technically I'm probably one of 'you guys' and lumped in with you.
If you couldn't compare things you'd be incapable of determining the difference between a pile of crap and a sandwich.
The trick is to not let one good sandwich ruin all other sandwiches for you (It's acceptable if it ruins piles of crap for you.)
(I guess in the interest of full disclosure, I don't really like most MMORPGs enough to pay a sub (It's why I'll dabble in open betas and F2P games), but that's not because I'm comparing them to other MMORPGs, it's because I don't think they're worth my money just in general and I dislike renting games.)
There are people on this forum that simply wont let themselves have fun in a game because a couple features in said game arent as good or too similar to the last.
Lets use Rift as an example. The game puts a new spin on the talent tree, role swaping system. Its added in dynamic group content throughout its entire leveling experience.
Yet the new is glazed over because the game uses the same questing formula of older games...
They refuse to let themselves enjoy any feature because it feels similar to that of WoW or WAR.
Just completely glaze over the fact that the games dungeon content is really well done, glaze over that the games actual storyline is pretty cool (dude time traveling defiant story is bad ass!).
Its come to the point that if a new game has an action bar and a mini-map in the top corner of the UI its slammed instantly.
Never mind that the game overall is very good, lets focus on small features and totally destroy any fun we could have had with the game.
This doesnt only happen in the rift forums, its been happening since 2004.
Being so critical over every little feature in a game, only leads to the player hating a game and glazing over anything thats positive in it.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I didnt mean you specifically just anyone that ruins any enjoyment they could have in a game because they over analyze everything. It wasnt an attack on you personally.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I honestly think some of it comes from something as simple as people who like to complain and be heard... doesn't matter what it's about.
Many people also love being offended... again... just for the opportunity to get out a megaphone and "be heard!". I mean look at the degree of righteous indignation some people spout out on these forums. You'd think the government came into their house, took all their money and kidnapped their family (okay, exaggerated.. but you get the idea :-p). I hardly believe these people are really *that* affected by a game.. If they are... well.. that's a whole other story.
Speaking for myself, I've known or at least spoken to a large number of people who will trash, bash and slam a MMO every day, every time you talk to them... yet they're playing it. They don't really hate the game. They just like to complain. A guy I knew in FFXI has been playing for about 6 years now. Has been complaining about it - everything about it - for the past 4 at least. Guaranteed if I logged in tonight, he'd be online.... still playing... still complaining.
Some people aren't playing the game and have no intention of playing the game.. they just like to hop on the "me-too" bandwagon.
In short.. I wouldn't put equal weight in every complaint you see. A lot of it, I suspect, is idle hot air.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I see what you are saying, in fact, the excuse that too much money is spent on the more complicated graphics of today's games is actually false. As evidenced by WOW, players will accept graphics that should be fairly easy to emulate with today's technology leaving more money to add features and better gameplay.
Guess all the money is being spent on Ferrarri's and Gaming Conventions.
Yeah, I agree, the argument that the graphics force us to leave out in depth features is weak. They are being left out by intelligent (or perhaps not intelligent) design as they've been deemed as undesireable by the target subscriber audience. (no return on the investment)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There's a rule of thumb in engineering that states, more or less, that you can make something with two out of the following three:
- Low cost of development
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The max you can get is two out of the three
RELAX!@!! BREATHE!!!
Somehow, I knew we'd end up here....
Simply put, I compare every MMO I play to MMOs I used to play..I can't help it.
Will I play Rift? No i won't...
Ok Their Dungeons content may be really well done, and their storyline may be pretty cool.. But in comparing it to other games, I have already done this countless times.
Let me compare their dungeon to say, WOWs, I'm not saying i must play/or not play Rift because theirs is a lil different, perhaps even slightly better. I'm comparing the two, because i need something more than this in my MMO.
Its gotten really old shoe for me... personal opinion.
Perhaps Rift is a lil better than WoW in all aspects, but I'm not playing it because its been done to death.
What am i looking for? I'm not sure, but Rift doesn't have it.
So I'll pass, thank you.
Edit: I'm just using wow as an example, and i may regret that
I was only using it as an example because its the hottest topic at the moment. I could have put any other game that released after wow in its place. Lotro, WAR, Aion, AoC... anything.
I wasn't trying to sell rift or anything, I do think your doing yourself a disservice by thinking that way though.
Because a game you used to play had dungeons, raids and linear questing doesnt mean you can't have a new experience or a good time in a new game that follows the same formula.
The world is new, the story is new, the dungeons are new, the raids are new, the class system is different, the content as you level is different. The structure may be the same but the game play experience is all new.
To say you've done this before, only robs you of a fun experience that you could of had if you didnt take one glance at the structure of the game and just discredit it as a whole as nothing you havent done before. Which is false, because you've never played Rift before. Same goes for those other games.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
This is exactly why I stopped reading all those Rift threads. People suck the fun out of everything and make you feel bad. Hell I am not blind I see it but I am not going to dwell on things. I am going to enjoy the games that are coming the best I can. Hell I am as old achool as they come played Everquest from 1999. Things people do to destroy their fun is mind boggling.
well, i guess, it depends on whom you will ask.
the casual gamer, who plays maybe 2 hours a day to relax from work. this kind of player is the majority of the mmog-customer and most of the post 2004 games try to target him. the wow-fanboy, who thinks that wow was the big bang and mmorpg didn't even exists before or fans of the genre, f.e. the people on this board, who mainly played mmorpg since uo and eq.
and the hunt for the casual gamer isn't over yet. even for this year the industry expect a 20% growth-rate from the mmog market (german numbers). there are a lot of first-timers into browser games and the logical conclusion is that sooner or later you will see them in client based mmog too. and as long as the industry thinks that they only catch them with easy to play and adept themeparks, they will invest in such projects. the wow-fanboy will always compare new themepark games with his 'holy grail', with the game that took his virginity. and, well, let him because he has all the rights to do it. i also compare my partners with the one i had my best sex-experience. and the mmorpg-fans, well, most of them played a lot of games, not to mention all the betas they were into, they nearly saw all kind of concepts and features.
i like to see myself as fan of the genre and i need a game in which i can stay longer than 3-4 month. to be honest, i don't mind if its fantasy or scifi, if it does have the usual class- and skillsystem or older graphics, what i need is a huge world like in vanguard, a territorial pvp system like in eve, crafting and property ownership like in istaria (horizons), a playerbased economy, housing like eqII, a guildsystems that isn't invented yet, a pve storyline like lotro and a serverperformance like rift .......as you can see, no game will be ever good enough for me :-)
I'll end this part with this post, because we are really beggining to hijack this thread....
I played Rift to level 20, and it felt monotonous. Is that enough to get a feel for the game? Maybe, maybe not.
Its me, and my opinion. I'll keep an eye on it, and maybe if I see endgame brings something new to the table down the road, I'll give it another shot.
/shrug
agree 1000% with you.
I never said anything about playing the game to a certain level to get a "feel" for it.
I also dont see how this is hijacking as Rift is the perfect example of people letting their passed experiences ruin a new game.
We look over a new game so closely, we grab that magnifying glass and compare and compare. We look for the flaws and one flaw outwieghs 10 positives.
Instead of looking at a games skeletal structure (leveling, quests, dungeons, instanced pvp, classes) and entirely judging a game like that. I would hope that people would notice other things. Like storyline, the experience they have playing through content in the open world, or what they experienced playing through dungeons.
Dont shoot a game down because it has quests... or if it has pvp mini-games. Try the quests, read the storylines. Queue up for a pvp mini-game and see if its actually fun.
I mean, why even play these games if your going to instantly judge a game on its overall structure?
"OMG! This game has questing! Classes! Tab target combat and Raids!!!! WOW CLONE!!! BEEN THERE DONE THAT!!!!"
Its wrong in my opinion. I dont know maybe i have a gift, maybe im capable of actually playing a game and seeing what it has to offer over its basic play structure.
I read these posts everyday, and more and more I'm glad I dont just judge a game on its basics like that.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I don't... I think thats my point....
You might not, but most do.
Thats the problem I have with the flames of games like Rift, Lotro and WAR.
Just judging a game on basic structure and not how different that actual experience is.
I would challenge any of those people to give me detailed information on any of those games storylines, zone for zone or their experiences on the games dungeons or pvp mini-games and they wouldnt be able to do it, or they would google something real fast and give a half assed answer.
Its a fact, they see a mini-map, an action bar, fill their quest log and give up saying a game is a clone.
I see it everyday, and those people are only ruinning a potentially fun experience for themselves and I think its sad.
And these are the people that will never be happy in this genre again.
You will always log into a game and see similar mechanics, see something that reminds you of a game you played to death.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
You're absolutly right....
but maybe those similarities are too pronounced... and thats whats ruinning a potentially fun experience?
Which means you have release a game good enough to hang in there for three years, and make enough money to pay for upkeep, fixing bugs, streamling features, and expansions.
That's not the challenge.
The challenge is to release something which doesn't seem like a clone of another game.
The reason why there's so much comparison-to-older-established-MMO is because most companies making MMOs are effectively copy+pasting the general design of the MMO from these older, established ones.
And that flat out fails precisely because they cannot compare to the established and polished ones.
If companies would stop releasing WoW-Clone-#562 then there'd be a lot less complaining about games; but as it is, people get (understandably) irritated by having so many clones around the place. I know I'm sick of class-based, dps-healer-tank centric grouping, fantasy game #192384192142134854920312.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
First, it's not about the details. It's about the general gameplay.
Second, people want things to have meaning. They don't want to just grow crops, they want those craps to have meaning in the game world. They want to make money off that as surely as a blacksmith makes money selling swords. When the game play is just about the grind (read this to mean levels from zone to zone, control dictated by the game design), then the other stuff doesn't have any meaning. And they "don't care about that" in that reference.
Once upon a time....
Yes! the MMORPG gener would be alot better if we did not compare them all to WoW ROFL!!!! but on serious note it would be better if we don't compare and take them as is what is and enjoy, don't allow comparing take you away fron a new MMORPG, I never ever let that happen to me, a new MMO is a new MMO no matter what, I may say "this MMORPG is similar" but thats it.
MMOs are about perspective. Usually, when a person starts an MMO for the first time and it is ALSO their first MMO they tend to like it the most. This is simply because this is all they've ever known. Their perspective is only focused on what they have now. If you only have 1 thing then that's the best you'll ever have.
A person gets into the game...levels up, gets weapons, is involved in the community...etc. A new MMO comes on line. Depending on how long a person has played and biased they've become determines how that new MMO will be received. Comparisons between MMOs can ONLY happen when people have played two or more MMOs. So, a person's first MMO will usually cause them to be biased to that one and no other MMO will ever "live up to" their favorite. Hell, it doesn't even matter if they are fundamentaly different games, only that they have MMO as a description.
I agree with this. As someone that has tried countless MMO's, I still haven't found one that gives me the same feeling that I had with my first MMO. It's all about perspective as you stated.
Any time I try a new MMO for the first time, I try my damnedest to go into with an open mind. It's extremely hard to do though. In all honesty, I'm only looking for one thing. I want that feeling I had so long ago. It's not about game structure or graphics or pieces of the puzzle like that. My first MMO was SWG (flamesuit on). I played for 5.5 years. During the last year or two, I experimented with other MMO's. None gave me that same feeling. I still test MMO's quite frequently today, but alas none has made it more than a couple of weeks.
This may sound weird, but this is what I want in a MMO. I want to feel like I'm actually living in my fantasy world, not just playing a game. I hope this makes sense to someone out there searching like myself. In hindsight, it takes so many pieces to come together to make that happen, and it varies depending on who you ask. Give me that, and I'll gladly pay any monthly fee that the game charges.