Pk who ruin the gameplay of others on purpose aren't nice people. I do not think they are nice people in RL either.
I had to read that twice before I fully grasped it and I find myself in agreemwent with your statement.
{Mod edit}
I don't think we're uneducated. I think you might be over-simplifying. The only way we could know for sure is to get someone in here who is a psychoanalyst, and I just don't foresee that happening.
The reasoning you presented above is ONE line of reasoning, and it's plausible. It makes complete sense, actually. However, I don't believe it is the ONLY possibility for answering the "why."
Someone who is nice to you but griefs the newbies is not a nice person. Now, whether PKing and ganking constitutes "griefing" depends greatly on the game and the circumstances.
I'll say anybody who griefs for no other reason but to grief, most likely have a rotten personality in real life as well. That's griefing however and the only area I can agree on.
These threads would be so much shorter and so much more productive if we didn't use nebulous terms like gank and grief. I think a conversation such as that would probably result in everyone realizing they have a lot more in common than they think.
That would never be possible. People define getting griefed differently. I define it as making somebody lose xp, by attacking them when they are in the middle of a PvE fight. Others might define it as being attacked while they are harvesting.
With those loose definitons nobody will ever agree.
It sounds like you agree then.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm pretty sure that whoever asked this question with a serious mindset needs a reality check and to stay away from games, for their own sanity. I'm not joking at all here.
In Warcraft, I was an Alliance player and went Horde on a new server. Sure enough, I met someone that ganked me constantly on that old server. Both being on the same side and in the same guild, I learned he was a really intelligent and kind player. Always tried to help me out, helped me quest even after he was done in an area, etc.
OP... don't play PvP games, please. For your own sanity.
I don't get it. You think just because someone asks a well thought out question about the possible character of people that enjoy ganking in games that they likely have sanity issues? I simply saw it as someone who was sincerely inquisitive about human nature in online social interactions.
/shrug
You don't need a P.hd to know the two things doesn't connect.
A better question would be why you would think there is a connection between the two. The most likely answer comes from within and ones own feelings of getting killed in a game.
I understand it's a game. What I'm curious about is basically the same thing the OP is curious about. Why do some players include ganking in their fantasy while others choose "ordinary" PvP and others choose NO PvP. I find that to be a valid question. MMORPGs are social by nature. They are played, as games, against or with others. My curiosity is as to why there is a difference in how they're enjoyed. It's an interesting and valid question. People fantasize or roleplay differently. Is there a reason why or is it just random?
By the way....I do PvP and I don't freak out at getting killed. When I PvP I expect it. The question to me is more about the whys of corpse campers and people that just enjoy griefing of other players as opposed to "standard" PvP in open world situations or battlegrounds, arenas, etc. You know, the players who make their goal to be simply interrupting someone repeatedly for the sheer sake of camping their corpse to the point that no progress can be made without just logging your character out and doing something else. I never have understood that. But I would LIKE to understand it.
I think it's normal to be curious about why different people make different choices. It's interesting to me. I have my own theories as to the whys. I'm interested in what other people think too, but I don't always find their responses to seem genuine.
Ok i'll bite and take your post serious
Lets first look at some of things you bring up
Why do people choose different servers with different rulesets. IE PvP, PvE, FFA PvP.
The answer lies in competition. You compete against a live opponant as opposed to a poorly scripted NPC. There is more of a challenge. If you stand to lose something some can even get an adrenaline kick out of it.Some people prefer the challenge of PvE. Some both. Havint to look over your shoulder beinging out your paranoid side can be enough of a reason in itself
Why do people gank
I'll assume for a second that ganking means catching the victim while being vastly more powerful in levels. Since there is no real competitive nature to this kind of PvP there can be lots of reasons. I'll mention some. Either the player isn't very good against equal levelled oppponants, boredom, roleplaying reasons or revenge. It can even be to use you as bait to bring the high levels to defend
Why PK in a social game. Isn't it anti social behavior?
Not everyone plays MMOs for their social nature.
Some do it because fighting against other players are the social nature they are there for.The assumptions here are that PK'ers are anti social. Lots of PK'ers have alts where they are in non-pk guilds. Some PK purists are social with other PK'ers they hunt with. That's their social circle in games. Needless to say it's an old wives tale that Pk'ers are anti social. They just don't want to be social with YOU the victim
Why do people corpse camp
Again lots of reasons why this happens. Maybe you were trash talking the guy who just killed you. Maybe they just feel like it for no reason whatsoever. I find those to be rare. Most of the time it's because you pissed the individual off by whining or talking smack, making assumtions to their rl character or something.
Back in the day in EQ I would play on a 4 team server where, it was generally accepted to give a guy you just killed a chance to loot his corpse and leave. Some would refuse to leave and honor the serverwide generally accepted player rule. Then you would have to teach them a lesson. Then they would talk shit and it was on. To me that type of corpse camping is understandable. Just like getting punched in the face if you walk up to a big dude with tatoos in real life and tell him he is a shiteater.
You see being an asshole or a jerk online is YOUR definition based on your morals. It's often based on bias and personal world view. If you cut in line in real life you are generally percieved as an asshole, and 9 time sout of 10 you will be told off. The store manager does not want their customers to do this. In games it's different. The "store manager" doesn't care about ganking, corpse camping or PK'ing because they designed the game to allow it.
It's like having a store that says with a big neon sign outside "skipping in line is allowed" and you standing inside screaming bloody murder because somebody did.
Great answer. However, I don't know what game you're playing where you can "trash talk" the opposing faction, but that's not really what I had in mind when I was talking about ganking or corpse camping. Hard to trash talk in, for instance, WoW, where corpse camping is common and no one has said so much as a "hello" to the person who is doing it. Also, PvP servers are meant for PvP. People bitching about any form of PvP on a PvP server are just....I don't know....confused or nuts. I also don't view PvP the same as griefing for the sake of griefing. So we have a few definition differences, but your response was very informative and interesting to me nonetheless.
(By the way....I also wonder why people flag for PvP on PvE servers and then whine about whatever happens to them. That also seems weird to me. The behavior of people in MMOs is very interesting. Anonymous social interactions....enough said, I suppose.)
I really appreciate your answer. Thanks for taking the time to write all that.
I'm pretty sure that whoever asked this question with a serious mindset needs a reality check and to stay away from games, for their own sanity. I'm not joking at all here.
In Warcraft, I was an Alliance player and went Horde on a new server. Sure enough, I met someone that ganked me constantly on that old server. Both being on the same side and in the same guild, I learned he was a really intelligent and kind player. Always tried to help me out, helped me quest even after he was done in an area, etc.
OP... don't play PvP games, please. For your own sanity.
I don't get it. You think just because someone asks a well thought out question about the possible character of people that enjoy ganking in games that they likely have sanity issues? I simply saw it as someone who was sincerely inquisitive about human nature in online social interactions.
/shrug
You don't need a P.hd to know the two things doesn't connect.
A better question would be why you would think there is a connection between the two. The most likely answer comes from within and ones own feelings of getting killed in a game.
I understand it's a game. What I'm curious about is basically the same thing the OP is curious about. Why do some players include ganking in their fantasy while others choose "ordinary" PvP and others choose NO PvP. I find that to be a valid question. MMORPGs are social by nature. They are played, as games, against or with others. My curiosity is as to why there is a difference in how they're enjoyed. It's an interesting and valid question. People fantasize or roleplay differently. Is there a reason why or is it just random?
By the way....I do PvP and I don't freak out at getting killed. When I PvP I expect it. The question to me is more about the whys of corpse campers and people that just enjoy griefing of other players as opposed to "standard" PvP in open world situations or battlegrounds, arenas, etc. You know, the players who make their goal to be simply interrupting someone repeatedly for the sheer sake of camping their corpse to the point that no progress can be made without just logging your character out and doing something else. I never have understood that. But I would LIKE to understand it.
I think it's normal to be curious about why different people make different choices. It's interesting to me. I have my own theories as to the whys. I'm interested in what other people think too, but I don't always find their responses to seem genuine.
Ok i'll bite and take your post serious
Lets first look at some of things you bring up
Why do people choose different servers with different rulesets. IE PvP, PvE, FFA PvP.
The answer lies in competition. You compete against a live opponant as opposed to a poorly scripted NPC. There is more of a challenge. If you stand to lose something some can even get an adrenaline kick out of it.Some people prefer the challenge of PvE. Some both. Havint to look over your shoulder beinging out your paranoid side can be enough of a reason in itself
Why do people gank
I'll assume for a second that ganking means catching the victim while being vastly more powerful in levels. Since there is no real competitive nature to this kind of PvP there can be lots of reasons. I'll mention some. Either the player isn't very good against equal levelled oppponants, boredom, roleplaying reasons or revenge. It can even be to use you as bait to bring the high levels to defend
Why PK in a social game. Isn't it anti social behavior?
Not everyone plays MMOs for their social nature.
Some do it because fighting against other players are the social nature they are there for.The assumptions here are that PK'ers are anti social. Lots of PK'ers have alts where they are in non-pk guilds. Some PK purists are social with other PK'ers they hunt with. That's their social circle in games. Needless to say it's an old wives tale that Pk'ers are anti social. They just don't want to be social with YOU the victim
Why do people corpse camp
Again lots of reasons why this happens. Maybe you were trash talking the guy who just killed you. Maybe they just feel like it for no reason whatsoever. I find those to be rare. Most of the time it's because you pissed the individual off by whining or talking smack, making assumtions to their rl character or something.
Back in the day in EQ I would play on a 4 team server where, it was generally accepted to give a guy you just killed a chance to loot his corpse and leave. Some would refuse to leave and honor the serverwide generally accepted player rule. Then you would have to teach them a lesson. Then they would talk shit and it was on. To me that type of corpse camping is understandable. Just like getting punched in the face if you walk up to a big dude with tatoos in real life and tell him he is a shiteater.
You see being an asshole or a jerk online is YOUR definition based on your morals. It's often based on bias and personal world view. If you cut in line in real life you are generally percieved as an asshole, and 9 time sout of 10 you will be told off. The store manager does not want their customers to do this. In games it's different. The "store manager" doesn't care about ganking, corpse camping or PK'ing because they designed the game to allow it.
It's like having a store that says with a big neon sign outside "skipping in line is allowed" and you standing inside screaming bloody murder because somebody did.
Great answer. However, I don't know what game you're playing where you can "trash talk" the opposing faction, but that's not really what I had in mind when I was talking about ganking or corpse camping. Hard to trash talk in, for instance, WoW, where corpse camping is common and no one has said so much as a "hello" to the person who is doing it. Also, PvP servers are meant for PvP. People bitching about any form of PvP on a PvP server are just....I don't know....confused or nuts. I also don't view PvP the same as griefing for the sake of griefing. So we have a few definition differences, but your response was very informative and interesting to me nonetheless.
I really appreciate your answer. Thanks for taking the time to write all that.
Several current MMOs have FFA PvP with no chat restrictions. Hell even in WoW I have seen people write to the opposing faction on a seperate account, or get a rl friend to send a message to one of my friends.
I didn't know you could corpse camp in WoW. I was under the assumption you could resurrect at a sprit healer or a at your kill spot. Even resurrect at other spirit healers. I could be wrong though
Great answer. However, I don't know what game you're playing where you can "trash talk" the opposing faction,
oh my!
Not all games are faction based nor do they separate you from your enemies. again, Lineage 2 you could be attacked by anyone for anything and you could of course converse with your attacker. I think UO was like this as well.
I think Shadowbane as well. Perhaps Darkfall as well.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
then i will follow the bandwagon of flamebait and claim...
People who want IRL morality standards applied into games are frustaded in their lives, because they want things to be black white so they dont need to think for themselves...
silly argument as many i´ve seen here. Games are escapism, to live another story, to experiment a new point of view.
Im jerk IRL and in-forums, however i try to be nice in-game, cause ol´ days of gaming, where pk where rampant, made me learn that being nice in-game get you better rewards (social-side) rather than being a lousy annoying kid.
PK happend you deserving or not, if you join a pk enabled server it´s your fault being pked.
and griefing its another thing.
now: GW2 (11 80s). Dark Souls 2. future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord. "Bro, do your even fractal?" Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Every person I've met who has admitted to being a 'PKer' or otherwise griefer was not necessarily a jerk. In fact, most of them seemed like okay people in person.
I will state however, that each of these people who was not a jerk, they definitely showed a lack of development either emotionally or in maturity, and simply lacked any critical understanding of morality. Simply put, they couldn't percieve the extent of grief their behavior was causing. They thought what they were doing was "funny", and justified any inconvenience they were causing as justifiable because "it's just a game."
So really I don't think it's necessarily that they're jerks or sociopaths, simply that they're too immature to understand the full effect their poor behavior is having on others. Despite this however, it by no means excuses their poor behavior.
I'll also note, that anyone who genuinely does grief other players, knowing full well it's causing their targets to become very upset, and taking pleasure in that fact, are truly disturbed people.
I've ganked many people in a myriad of games, while still keeping it civilized.
Im not a bad guy, quite the opposite, but every now and then, I get into my role of "insert evil race here" and reap flesh and bone for "insert evil god here".
Its very simple.
EDIT: I'd have to add that I have nothing to prove in or through a videogame, so maybe that's why I tend to be the first to say "Good fight" or something like that, as opposed to "lol n00b".
Every person I've met who has admitted to being a 'PKer' or otherwise griefer was not necessarily a jerk. In fact, most of them seemed like okay people in person.
I will state however, that each of these people who was not a jerk, they definitely showed a lack of development either emotionally or in maturity, and simply lacked any critical understanding of morality. Simply put, they couldn't percieve the extent of grief their behavior was causing. They thought what they were doing was "funny", and justified any inconvenience they were causing as justifiable because "it's just a game."
So really I don't think it's necessarily that they're jerks or sociopaths, simply that they're too immature to understand the full effect their poor behavior is having on others. Despite this however, it by no means excuses their poor behavior.
I'll also note, that anyone who genuinely does grief other players, knowing full well it's causing their targets to become very upset, and taking pleasure in that fact, are truly disturbed people.
This seems right to me, despite the fact you'll catch all kinds of flack here for saying it. I tend to agree.
Dunno about nice, but I wager most of the folks that PK and gank are the same folks that got picked on and chucked into dumpsters in High School, deserving, or not.
It's their way of getting revenge for the humiliation they experience IRL.
Edit to clarify my definition of PK: Pretty much an old school griefer, that would kill players that obviously weren't there to PvP. (Many oldschool MUDs gave you the ability to PvP, but officially discouraged it). PK'ers would look for someone crafting or doing some "peace time" activity and engage them. To me, that's a PK'er. I in no way include PvP based players in that crowd, as that's what the game is for, so everyone should know what to expect. And in PvP, the PK term is not necessary, as Griefer and Ganker both fit the bill.
My point is, just because you CAN do something in a game doesn't mean you SHOULD.
Every person I've met who has admitted to being a 'PKer' or otherwise griefer was not necessarily a jerk. In fact, most of them seemed like okay people in person.
I will state however, that each of these people who was not a jerk, they definitely showed a lack of development either emotionally or in maturity, and simply lacked any critical understanding of morality. Simply put, they couldn't percieve the extent of grief their behavior was causing. They thought what they were doing was "funny", and justified any inconvenience they were causing as justifiable because "it's just a game."
So really I don't think it's necessarily that they're jerks or sociopaths, simply that they're too immature to understand the full effect their poor behavior is having on others. Despite this however, it by no means excuses their poor behavior.
I'll also note, that anyone who genuinely does grief other players, knowing full well it's causing their targets to become very upset, and taking pleasure in that fact, are truly disturbed people.
That's entirely based on your definition of "mature". Your own feeling and others like you with feelings of "grief". Not to mention your biased views on what's poor behavior and what's not.
Not everybody that cries "GRIEF!" are entitled to call foul for obvious reasons.
To give you an example based on your post. If you have a biased view of PK'ing you are going to view those that partake in it based on that. If Pk'ing = immature and irrisponsible then pkers = immature. It's not really a solid base to form a valid opinion unless you want to bring in other RL factors.
Great answer. However, I don't know what game you're playing where you can "trash talk" the opposing faction,
oh my!
Not all games are faction based nor do they separate you from your enemies. again, Lineage 2 you could be attacked by anyone for anything and you could of course converse with your attacker. I think UO was like this as well.
I think Shadowbane as well. Perhaps Darkfall as well.
You're right , of course. I tend to forget all the more "PvPish" games since I don't play them. EQ2 you can talk to the opposing faction too and I DO play EQ2, but not on a PvP server, so I'm not sure how it works there. UO I haven't played for AGES, but yes, I do remember trash talking going on there. Thanks for the reminder....it literally made me cringe. LOL
Great answer. However, I don't know what game you're playing where you can "trash talk" the opposing faction,
oh my!
Not all games are faction based nor do they separate you from your enemies. again, Lineage 2 you could be attacked by anyone for anything and you could of course converse with your attacker. I think UO was like this as well.
I think Shadowbane as well. Perhaps Darkfall as well.
You're right , of course. I tend to forget all the more "PvPish" games since I don't play them. EQ2 you can talk to the opposing faction too and I DO play EQ2, but not on a PvP server, so I'm not sure how it works there. UO I haven't played for AGES, but yes, I do remember trash talking going on there. Thanks for the reminder....it literally made me cringe. LOL
Yeah, I have to admit, I'm not ever interested in listening to someone else exhibit their issues for all the world to see.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Every person I've met who has admitted to being a 'PKer' or otherwise griefer was not necessarily a jerk. In fact, most of them seemed like okay people in person.
I will state however, that each of these people who was not a jerk, they definitely showed a lack of development either emotionally or in maturity, and simply lacked any critical understanding of morality. Simply put, they couldn't percieve the extent of grief their behavior was causing. They thought what they were doing was "funny", and justified any inconvenience they were causing as justifiable because "it's just a game."
So really I don't think it's necessarily that they're jerks or sociopaths, simply that they're too immature to understand the full effect their poor behavior is having on others. Despite this however, it by no means excuses their poor behavior.
I'll also note, that anyone who genuinely does grief other players, knowing full well it's causing their targets to become very upset, and taking pleasure in that fact, are truly disturbed people.
The problem I have there is that you equate PKing with griefing. If you enter an open PVP area (Tarren Mills?) and a player kills you, under any circumstance that is PKing - it is a player killing another player. According to you. that real life person has some definiciency in their morality or development as a human. The other player is playing the game according to the rules, and the situation could even be one where you are a higher level than them, but you would still say that he's causing grief to the other player and simply not developed enough as a human being to understand the grief he has just caused another human.
You don't see anything wrong with that view?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
People like the idea of PvP but when PvP suits them. A lof of these people "the sheep" want to level in safety then participate in PvP at their leisure. They do not want to get jumped at invoncenient times when they are PvE'ing. It's disruptive to their "fun". If it was up to them they would level up to max level, get the gear they need and THEN participate in PvP.
I really think that's the mindset of these people when they join FFA PvP servers. They litteraly get upset when that's not the case. Then they rationalize it to be something with you and not them.
Every person I've met who has admitted to being a 'PKer' or otherwise griefer was not necessarily a jerk. In fact, most of them seemed like okay people in person.
I will state however, that each of these people who was not a jerk, they definitely showed a lack of development either emotionally or in maturity, and simply lacked any critical understanding of morality. Simply put, they couldn't percieve the extent of grief their behavior was causing. They thought what they were doing was "funny", and justified any inconvenience they were causing as justifiable because "it's just a game."
So really I don't think it's necessarily that they're jerks or sociopaths, simply that they're too immature to understand the full effect their poor behavior is having on others. Despite this however, it by no means excuses their poor behavior.
I'll also note, that anyone who genuinely does grief other players, knowing full well it's causing their targets to become very upset, and taking pleasure in that fact, are truly disturbed people.
That's entirely based on your definition of "mature". Your own feeling and others like you with feelings of "grief". Not to mention your biased views on what's poor behavior and what's not.
Not everybody that cries "GRIEF!" are entitled to call foul for obvious reasons.
You're attempting to side-step the premise by arguing symantics.
Morality and maturity are subjective, but they are definied by the collective majority of those involved. The collective majority of MMO gamers have a fairly solid basis of what behavior is an isn't griefing.
These days it's different with there being more choice in games and server rule-sets, but the morality of behavior is still determined by the sum of the community. If the majority of players deem ninja-looting to be bad behavior -- and most do -- then ninja looting is bad behavior.
It all comes down to the fact that morons who do not t wish to engage in FFA PVP flock to games that feature it then complain, and act like the person who killed them is at fauilt. That to me hints at a much bigger personality disorder than the PK could be suffering from.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Every person I've met who has admitted to being a 'PKer' or otherwise griefer was not necessarily a jerk. In fact, most of them seemed like okay people in person.
I will state however, that each of these people who was not a jerk, they definitely showed a lack of development either emotionally or in maturity, and simply lacked any critical understanding of morality. Simply put, they couldn't percieve the extent of grief their behavior was causing. They thought what they were doing was "funny", and justified any inconvenience they were causing as justifiable because "it's just a game."
So really I don't think it's necessarily that they're jerks or sociopaths, simply that they're too immature to understand the full effect their poor behavior is having on others. Despite this however, it by no means excuses their poor behavior.
I'll also note, that anyone who genuinely does grief other players, knowing full well it's causing their targets to become very upset, and taking pleasure in that fact, are truly disturbed people.
That's entirely based on your definition of "mature". Your own feeling and others like you with feelings of "grief". Not to mention your biased views on what's poor behavior and what's not.
Not everybody that cries "GRIEF!" are entitled to call foul for obvious reasons.
You're attempting to side-step the premise by arguing symantics.
Morality and maturity are subjective, but they are definied by the collective majority of those involved. The collective majority of MMO gamers have a fairly solid basis of what behavior is an isn't griefing.
These days it's different with there being more choice in games and server rule-sets, but the morality of behavior is still determined by the sum of the community. If the majority of players deem ninja-looting to be bad behavior -- and most do -- then ninja looting is bad behavior.
Even ninja looting is subjective.
There's the obvious then there's other incidents
A hunter in WoW may feel entitled to a spear because of certain stats, but a paladin may use the same item as well because it has better damage than what he is using. The "server" may deem that item to be a hunter spear but the paladin could easily see it as an item he should "need" on. That actually happens often.
I have seen people like that being called "ninja looters" by said community. The majority is not always right
Someone who is nice to you but griefs the newbies is not a nice person. Now, whether PKing and ganking constitutes "griefing" depends greatly on the game and the circumstances.
I'll say anybody who griefs for no other reason but to grief, most likely have a rotten personality in real life as well. That's griefing however and the only area I can agree on.
These threads would be so much shorter and so much more productive if we didn't use nebulous terms like gank and grief. I think a conversation such as that would probably result in everyone realizing they have a lot more in common than they think.
That would never be possible. People define getting griefed differently. I define it as making somebody lose xp, by attacking them when they are in the middle of a PvE fight. Others might define it as being attacked while they are harvesting.
With those loose definitons nobody will ever agree.
It sounds like you agree then.
What constittutes griefing depends tremendously on the game. In a PVP game with equal sides and fixed objectives, even blatant corpse camping for long periods of time to keep someone on the other side out of commission while your teammates do the work to win may be perfectly fair game. (It would likely constitute bad game design, though.) In a mostly PVE game where players are supposed to be able to avoid being ganked if they care to, tricking someone into enabling PVP and then killing him once constitutes griefing.
Every person I've met who has admitted to being a 'PKer' or otherwise griefer was not necessarily a jerk. In fact, most of them seemed like okay people in person.
I will state however, that each of these people who was not a jerk, they definitely showed a lack of development either emotionally or in maturity, and simply lacked any critical understanding of morality. Simply put, they couldn't percieve the extent of grief their behavior was causing. They thought what they were doing was "funny", and justified any inconvenience they were causing as justifiable because "it's just a game."
So really I don't think it's necessarily that they're jerks or sociopaths, simply that they're too immature to understand the full effect their poor behavior is having on others. Despite this however, it by no means excuses their poor behavior.
I'll also note, that anyone who genuinely does grief other players, knowing full well it's causing their targets to become very upset, and taking pleasure in that fact, are truly disturbed people.
That's entirely based on your definition of "mature". Your own feeling and others like you with feelings of "grief". Not to mention your biased views on what's poor behavior and what's not.
Not everybody that cries "GRIEF!" are entitled to call foul for obvious reasons.
You're attempting to side-step the premise by arguing symantics.
Morality and maturity are subjective, but they are definied by the collective majority of those involved. The collective majority of MMO gamers have a fairly solid basis of what behavior is an isn't griefing.
These days it's different with there being more choice in games and server rule-sets, but the morality of behavior is still determined by the sum of the community. If the majority of players deem ninja-looting to be bad behavior -- and most do -- then ninja looting is bad behavior.
What does ninja-looting have to do with getting PKed on a PVP server? Again, you're saying that all PKing is griefing which is undeniably ridiculous. What's worse is that you have the nerve to say people who PK are mentally deficient and then say it's the PKs that are immature. There's a certain humor in that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Someone who is nice to you but griefs the newbies is not a nice person. Now, whether PKing and ganking constitutes "griefing" depends greatly on the game and the circumstances.
I'll say anybody who griefs for no other reason but to grief, most likely have a rotten personality in real life as well. That's griefing however and the only area I can agree on.
These threads would be so much shorter and so much more productive if we didn't use nebulous terms like gank and grief. I think a conversation such as that would probably result in everyone realizing they have a lot more in common than they think.
That would never be possible. People define getting griefed differently. I define it as making somebody lose xp, by attacking them when they are in the middle of a PvE fight. Others might define it as being attacked while they are harvesting.
With those loose definitons nobody will ever agree.
It sounds like you agree then.
What constittutes griefing depends tremendously on the game. In a PVP game with equal sides and fixed objectives, even blatant corpse camping for long periods of time to keep someone on the other side out of commission while your teammates do the work to win may be perfectly fair game. (It would likely constitute bad game design, though.) In a mostly PVE game where players are supposed to be able to avoid being ganked if they care to, tricking someone into enabling PVP and then killing him once constitutes griefing.
Exactly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Every person I've met who has admitted to being a 'PKer' or otherwise griefer was not necessarily a jerk. In fact, most of them seemed like okay people in person.
I will state however, that each of these people who was not a jerk, they definitely showed a lack of development either emotionally or in maturity, and simply lacked any critical understanding of morality. Simply put, they couldn't percieve the extent of grief their behavior was causing. They thought what they were doing was "funny", and justified any inconvenience they were causing as justifiable because "it's just a game."
So really I don't think it's necessarily that they're jerks or sociopaths, simply that they're too immature to understand the full effect their poor behavior is having on others. Despite this however, it by no means excuses their poor behavior.
I'll also note, that anyone who genuinely does grief other players, knowing full well it's causing their targets to become very upset, and taking pleasure in that fact, are truly disturbed people.
The problem I have there is that you equate PKing with griefing. If you enter an open PVP area (Tarren Mills?) and a player kills you, under any circumstance that is PKing - it is a player killing another player. According to you. that real life person has some definiciency in their morality or development as a human. The other player is playing the game according to the rules, and the situation could even be one where you are a higher level than them, but you would still say that he's causing grief to the other player and simply not developed enough as a human being to understand the grief he has just caused another human.
You don't see anything wrong with that view?
If you walk into a war zone as a soldier, expect to be fired upon.
Your scenario isn't PKing, it's just PvP.
In the traditional sense, PKing typically refers to one or more players who force PvP upon one or more unwilling and often unworthy victim/s. This happens far less today, because there is abundantly more choice in both MMOs and server rule-sets. It can still happen however, in the form of higher level players ganking lower levels, but even then the morality of it is subjective to the perception of such acts by the game's community.
I'm speaking on broader terms as well. It's not just PKing, it's any type of selfish behavior and/or griefing. The bulk of the players who break the behavioral and social norms of their game/server community, are the ones who are less developed emotionally and lack the empathy needed to understand the true impact they're having.
Comments
I don't think we're uneducated. I think you might be over-simplifying. The only way we could know for sure is to get someone in here who is a psychoanalyst, and I just don't foresee that happening.
The reasoning you presented above is ONE line of reasoning, and it's plausible. It makes complete sense, actually. However, I don't believe it is the ONLY possibility for answering the "why."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Yes.
/thread.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It sounds like you agree then.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Dammit, where were you fourteen pages ago?!?!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Great answer. However, I don't know what game you're playing where you can "trash talk" the opposing faction, but that's not really what I had in mind when I was talking about ganking or corpse camping. Hard to trash talk in, for instance, WoW, where corpse camping is common and no one has said so much as a "hello" to the person who is doing it. Also, PvP servers are meant for PvP. People bitching about any form of PvP on a PvP server are just....I don't know....confused or nuts. I also don't view PvP the same as griefing for the sake of griefing. So we have a few definition differences, but your response was very informative and interesting to me nonetheless.
(By the way....I also wonder why people flag for PvP on PvE servers and then whine about whatever happens to them. That also seems weird to me. The behavior of people in MMOs is very interesting. Anonymous social interactions....enough said, I suppose.)
I really appreciate your answer. Thanks for taking the time to write all that.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Several current MMOs have FFA PvP with no chat restrictions. Hell even in WoW I have seen people write to the opposing faction on a seperate account, or get a rl friend to send a message to one of my friends.
I didn't know you could corpse camp in WoW. I was under the assumption you could resurrect at a sprit healer or a at your kill spot. Even resurrect at other spirit healers. I could be wrong though
oh my!
Not all games are faction based nor do they separate you from your enemies. again, Lineage 2 you could be attacked by anyone for anything and you could of course converse with your attacker. I think UO was like this as well.
I think Shadowbane as well. Perhaps Darkfall as well.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
then i will follow the bandwagon of flamebait and claim...
People who want IRL morality standards applied into games are frustaded in their lives, because they want things to be black white so they dont need to think for themselves...
silly argument as many i´ve seen here. Games are escapism, to live another story, to experiment a new point of view.
Im jerk IRL and in-forums, however i try to be nice in-game, cause ol´ days of gaming, where pk where rampant, made me learn that being nice in-game get you better rewards (social-side) rather than being a lousy annoying kid.
PK happend you deserving or not, if you join a pk enabled server it´s your fault being pked.
and griefing its another thing.
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Every person I've met who has admitted to being a 'PKer' or otherwise griefer was not necessarily a jerk. In fact, most of them seemed like okay people in person.
I will state however, that each of these people who was not a jerk, they definitely showed a lack of development either emotionally or in maturity, and simply lacked any critical understanding of morality. Simply put, they couldn't percieve the extent of grief their behavior was causing. They thought what they were doing was "funny", and justified any inconvenience they were causing as justifiable because "it's just a game."
So really I don't think it's necessarily that they're jerks or sociopaths, simply that they're too immature to understand the full effect their poor behavior is having on others. Despite this however, it by no means excuses their poor behavior.
I'll also note, that anyone who genuinely does grief other players, knowing full well it's causing their targets to become very upset, and taking pleasure in that fact, are truly disturbed people.
I've ganked many people in a myriad of games, while still keeping it civilized.
Im not a bad guy, quite the opposite, but every now and then, I get into my role of "insert evil race here" and reap flesh and bone for "insert evil god here".
Its very simple.
EDIT: I'd have to add that I have nothing to prove in or through a videogame, so maybe that's why I tend to be the first to say "Good fight" or something like that, as opposed to "lol n00b".
This seems right to me, despite the fact you'll catch all kinds of flack here for saying it. I tend to agree.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Dunno about nice, but I wager most of the folks that PK and gank are the same folks that got picked on and chucked into dumpsters in High School, deserving, or not.
It's their way of getting revenge for the humiliation they experience IRL.
Edit to clarify my definition of PK: Pretty much an old school griefer, that would kill players that obviously weren't there to PvP. (Many oldschool MUDs gave you the ability to PvP, but officially discouraged it). PK'ers would look for someone crafting or doing some "peace time" activity and engage them. To me, that's a PK'er. I in no way include PvP based players in that crowd, as that's what the game is for, so everyone should know what to expect. And in PvP, the PK term is not necessary, as Griefer and Ganker both fit the bill.
My point is, just because you CAN do something in a game doesn't mean you SHOULD.
That's entirely based on your definition of "mature". Your own feeling and others like you with feelings of "grief". Not to mention your biased views on what's poor behavior and what's not.
Not everybody that cries "GRIEF!" are entitled to call foul for obvious reasons.
To give you an example based on your post. If you have a biased view of PK'ing you are going to view those that partake in it based on that. If Pk'ing = immature and irrisponsible then pkers = immature. It's not really a solid base to form a valid opinion unless you want to bring in other RL factors.
You're right , of course. I tend to forget all the more "PvPish" games since I don't play them. EQ2 you can talk to the opposing faction too and I DO play EQ2, but not on a PvP server, so I'm not sure how it works there. UO I haven't played for AGES, but yes, I do remember trash talking going on there. Thanks for the reminder....it literally made me cringe. LOL
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Yeah, I have to admit, I'm not ever interested in listening to someone else exhibit their issues for all the world to see.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The problem I have there is that you equate PKing with griefing. If you enter an open PVP area (Tarren Mills?) and a player kills you, under any circumstance that is PKing - it is a player killing another player. According to you. that real life person has some definiciency in their morality or development as a human. The other player is playing the game according to the rules, and the situation could even be one where you are a higher level than them, but you would still say that he's causing grief to the other player and simply not developed enough as a human being to understand the grief he has just caused another human.
You don't see anything wrong with that view?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Heres the thing and what it all boils down to.
People like the idea of PvP but when PvP suits them. A lof of these people "the sheep" want to level in safety then participate in PvP at their leisure. They do not want to get jumped at invoncenient times when they are PvE'ing. It's disruptive to their "fun". If it was up to them they would level up to max level, get the gear they need and THEN participate in PvP.
I really think that's the mindset of these people when they join FFA PvP servers. They litteraly get upset when that's not the case. Then they rationalize it to be something with you and not them.
You're attempting to side-step the premise by arguing symantics.
Morality and maturity are subjective, but they are definied by the collective majority of those involved. The collective majority of MMO gamers have a fairly solid basis of what behavior is an isn't griefing.
These days it's different with there being more choice in games and server rule-sets, but the morality of behavior is still determined by the sum of the community. If the majority of players deem ninja-looting to be bad behavior -- and most do -- then ninja looting is bad behavior.
It all comes down to the fact that morons who do not t wish to engage in FFA PVP flock to games that feature it then complain, and act like the person who killed them is at fauilt. That to me hints at a much bigger personality disorder than the PK could be suffering from.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Even ninja looting is subjective.
There's the obvious then there's other incidents
A hunter in WoW may feel entitled to a spear because of certain stats, but a paladin may use the same item as well because it has better damage than what he is using. The "server" may deem that item to be a hunter spear but the paladin could easily see it as an item he should "need" on. That actually happens often.
I have seen people like that being called "ninja looters" by said community. The majority is not always right
"ninja looting" is another loose term.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
What constittutes griefing depends tremendously on the game. In a PVP game with equal sides and fixed objectives, even blatant corpse camping for long periods of time to keep someone on the other side out of commission while your teammates do the work to win may be perfectly fair game. (It would likely constitute bad game design, though.) In a mostly PVE game where players are supposed to be able to avoid being ganked if they care to, tricking someone into enabling PVP and then killing him once constitutes griefing.
What does ninja-looting have to do with getting PKed on a PVP server? Again, you're saying that all PKing is griefing which is undeniably ridiculous. What's worse is that you have the nerve to say people who PK are mentally deficient and then say it's the PKs that are immature. There's a certain humor in that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Exactly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you walk into a war zone as a soldier, expect to be fired upon.
Your scenario isn't PKing, it's just PvP.
In the traditional sense, PKing typically refers to one or more players who force PvP upon one or more unwilling and often unworthy victim/s. This happens far less today, because there is abundantly more choice in both MMOs and server rule-sets. It can still happen however, in the form of higher level players ganking lower levels, but even then the morality of it is subjective to the perception of such acts by the game's community.
I'm speaking on broader terms as well. It's not just PKing, it's any type of selfish behavior and/or griefing. The bulk of the players who break the behavioral and social norms of their game/server community, are the ones who are less developed emotionally and lack the empathy needed to understand the true impact they're having.