As far as too number 5 writing off a studio. I have to say I have written of 2 studios completely. Turbine, and Cryptic. There acts are so bad I had to write them off. I know a lot of folks are going to say what about SOE. While the SWG made me very angry indeed , I still to this day play EQ2.
As far as to numbers 2 and 3 using anger to demand code changes and my thoughts are always right. All one has to do is take a look at my posting to be aware of that. I am surprised that I don't have 3 titles, most hated poster, most flamed poster, or most warned poster. Any of those would work.
I have to respectfully disagree about number 4 its all about the money. Ahem yes its always about the money. All one has to do is look at the item store that lotro and that sto have. Hello.
Oh well crawling back under the rock from whence I came.
If you don't like item malls, then how come you still play EQ2? I played that game for 6 years. Its still one of the best games out there. But SOE and the devs greed chased me away.
Becasue unlike LOTRO to where you have plenty of I win buttons. SOE station cash does not have anything that I would buy other than maybee a name change. Most of the stuff in there store is housing and decoration. The potions hold no interest to me. I have stuff that already can use to reset my vitality. I find the soe store to be calm compared to stuff like STO to where you actually buy ships that you cant get in game, well I guess you could buy 25 dollar mounts, but not me.
5- At some point you realize it's the guys at the top that are causing the problems. When creative teams change but the same crap keeps getting pumped out, what other conclusions can you draw?
4-Again, it's the guys at the top, not the designers.
3-Agreed. Acting like a douchebag will get you on TV, but it won't get your game fixed. Unless, of course, the devs refuse to listen. Then acting like a douchebag helps you cope.
2-Everyone likes what they like. There are many instances in life where you compromise for the good of all, but video games are the penultimate expression of "what I want to do with my free time". Nobody wants to spend it playing something fun for someone else and not them.
1-Do you realize what you wrote? "...don’t get too pumped about a title before you actually get to play it. Look at the hype meter for Guild Wars 2 on our site." Why the hell do you have a hype meter if you don't want people to get excited about a game before it's been released?! That's just the height of hypocrisy. Like Democrat politicians. Either take the hype meter away or retract your statement and come up with a new #1 for this list. Wow.
Hilarious that there are so many people disagreeing with number 4.
A good and benevolent development team will design a game that people love to play, so that many many people will play the game and continue to enjoy the game for a long time. A bad and greedy development team will refuse to listen to their players, opting instead to design a game that just sucks in as many people as they can, and make whatever changes they need to in order to keep people paying them nonstop.
The difference between these two teams is... um... hang on...
I am guilty of #5 and will continue to be. Maybe not so much the studio as the people who run them... I won't touch another MMO that involves: Roper, Emmert, Godager, Jacobs, or McQuaid.
I won't write off the studio necessarily if they get rid of association with those names... but I just don't trust them farther than I can throw them. (and since we're on the internet, I can't throw them very far!)
Regaring your comment about not getting to excited for a game- while I believe this is sage advice, citing the hype level for guild wars 2 is a bit odd. The HYPE meter provided by this website is for EXACTLY that, for players to rate just how excited they are for a future product based on only the information available.
I just can't get over it... First, SOE went way overboard for asking about when some broken quests were going to finally get fixed. Then they go and completely mess up their game. ...All of this is regarding SWG.
And I gave them a second chance with EQ2. But when I saw the same thing happening again. I just gave up on them as a Company.
Now, yes, I do understand those responsible have probably left SOE (the head of customer service at the time is now CEO at Cryptic). Still I just cannot bring myself to trust them a 3rd time. And I don't see my attitude will ever change.
See part of it is that they don't release MMORPGs that frequently. And I'm fairly sure they feel allot of pressure to "get things right", at least from their prespective. But I don't think that companies, as a whole, change much at all. If anything they retain a certain "culture" even after many of the individual employees have gone. So the result is that they have an overwhelming tendency to make the same mistakes.
So regardless of your other points. I just can't accept #5.
I experienced point 1. Got ridiculously hyped over a game which was not even in alpha stage! But their to-do-list just happened to co-incide with my wish-list. I used to scour the internet regularly for any scraps of information I could find ... for around 2 years before beta ...
When it did finally come out, there were so many things that did not meet expectations. So many targets that were dropped from the original list. It's not a bad game. And with time it is improving ... but I was so disappointed I quit the game after a year ... ah well, might go back in a year or so.
Totally guilty of no. 2. And yea, I do have the best ideas, from my perspective :P
My ideal MMO would be a sandbox medieval fantasy setting with a trend for realism almost to the point of the almost mundane. Anyone who can't connect fantasy to realism is not worth explaining it to. But in my defence I don't impose my idea onto people. They're free to think whatever pleases them
Im going to aggree with the general consensus here. 4 and 5 are about 90% wrong and in the rare occasion that theyre right only serves to prove the rule. If i buy tp and its terrible i dont buy that tp again. and even free things have a reason for being free that can generally be translated into a profit in some way.
*drops his 2 cents and flees from the scene*
"If they had played the game, theyd probably be far more upset. Dragon Age also features digital prostitutes, lesbians, rather clean three way sex, inter-species erotica, war, decapitation, thinly veiled social commentary, alcohol, drug addiction, slavery, racism, sexism, sexual harassment, genocide, the death of children, demons, and more blood than a vampire drinking game." -Dana Massey
I believe the top player mistake is to demand everything to be included at launch. There are some features that can be delayed a little without there being serious consequences for the players' experience. Housing for example is normally not necessary at release, but can be delayed until the guilds have organized themselves and are able to harvest the resources needed for their hall.
As for your #1, buying the hype, I think we all suffer from this from time to time. Every once in a while I come across a concept that sounds intriguing and look forward to its release. My last one was AoC, and while I am still disappointed in how Funcom dropped that ball, I am still curious about how The Secret World will pan out.
Assuming that our ideas are the best is only natural. Otherwise we would not bother to offer them. The thing that drove me away from DAoC was their so-called archer patch some time back. I was a member of the critshot.com-community which was composed of archers from all three realms who discussed our classes. For most of the time, the Hunter, Ranger and Scout team leads were regulars on our forums, and there was a general consensus amongst all three realms what needed to be adressed with regards to archery, yet when the patch came archery changed completely and many of us felt we were reduced to cheap casters. The fact that Mythic allowed archers to run around with caster artifacts such as staff instead of bows only made us even less worth. Add to the fact that our recommendations, as portrayed through the TLs reports, were completely ignored only left us desillusioned.
Your #3 is directly tied in with the developer's vision. Sadly, LotRO appeared to add the PvP zone just to placate the ones who cried out for such opportunities. I followed their forums quite closely, and recall how vocal that minority was, but instead of telling them to look for PvP somewhere else, they added the Ettinmoor zone which offered the criers their place. Developers might prefer the honey, but if the vinegar is poured on heavily enough, then they will get results too.
My brother studies 3D design, and quite a number of his classmates are budding game designers, and I do not doubt their passion for games. Unfortunately, players have seen too many instances of MMOs being pushed out the door before they were ready, and they suffer as a consequence. The worst problem is that the game designers should have picked up on some of the problems long before they even began building the world. AoC is a prime example where players found their long damaging combos useless because their opponents dodged out of the way to disrupt the sequence before it was completed, thus rendering the attacker's efforts in vain. If a game beats its chest proclaiming to be the greatest PvP game, then such fundamental design mistakes must be avoided. One can speculate why this is, but that the money men behind the scenes call the shots is a fair assumption. It seems as if most companies have no clue as to the fundamentals of marketing: "A happy customer might tell two friends of a good encounter, but an unhappy one will tell everyone he/she meets."
Writing off a studio becomes easier with time. One might argur that Pixar would not be where they are today unless they hit a homerun early on, and Dreamworks would probably have failed despite their starring headline without initial success. When you describe Anarchy Online vs AoC, that has as much with personal preferances as the studio. Those are two completely different experiences. What I see as symptomatic is that both games struggled with their launches, and that Funcom needed to work hard after the launch to work out bugs that should have been taken care of. The old warrior's saying that "you are only as good as your last fight" goes for games also, and the number of recent games that has gone FTP or simply folded can be attributed to that.
#5 I've tried to go back to studios. I've been burnt multiple times by the SAME studios. SOE, Cryptic, Funcom. I simply don't trust their products at launch anymore. For me to have blind faith in their next game would be laughable.
I dont think the article is refering to having blind faith in anyone, but don't avoid giving anyone your potential intrest. If the last game you played from some company was horrible don't pre-order the next one, but if the next game looks like it has potential, then track the games development and not what players say (good and bad!!) when the game comes out. If the reviews of the game ever seem high enough to have potential + you are looking for a new game then perhaps give it a try. Perhaps by this time there is a demo or atleast plenty of game play videos + written guides and reviews. NEVER just say yes to a game because of the company or the story the game is based on, but NEVER say no for those reasons either- you might miss out on something that you would have enjoyed.
Regarding number 4, there are game designers and then there are producers who pays for it all. If producers want something like WoW then you as a game designer cant do jack shit, if you want their money to develop.
In the current MMO industry, based on AAA titles being released, it is all about the money because people in Suits, who want to invest and make money are calling the shots. That is why no AAA title has been released in the past few years that does not reuse WoWs basic elements of themepark, casual and fast/easy quest based advancement.
We have only in the indy companies to rely on innovativation and thinking outside of the box and they dont have any money. Why? For above stated reasons, they cant find a publisher to give them the dough because all they want are WoW clones.
Also it is interesting that you list number 2 here but in your list of developer misstakes you dont mention anything about listening to your customers. I can only summise that you think us customers should just shut up because we dont know anything.
We the customers are the ones that ultimately pay the bills and use their product. Them NOT listening to us is just shere arrogance on their side.
And many, MANY beta players have voiced valid and constructive concerns before games like WAR and AoC were released. Just to be ignored by the devs. Probably why so many people now respond with anger because they know that the devs wont give a shit what you think or say.
Also, since we are paying, they need to serve us so in no way are we obliged to be polite to them as they need to be to you. Problem is that customers are so many so to use that ultimate power of withdrawing all, or most of the, the funds is dificult to do.
5. Writing off a studio - so just how many chances are we players supposed to give studios that ignore players?
This pretty much sums it up. How many chances should we give? If a company produces three MMOs in a row that I do not care for, and each game has the same core elements that I dislike, just how many more chances should I give them?
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Becasue unlike LOTRO to where you have plenty of I win buttons.
"I win buttons?" Have you actually played LotRO? There are no 'I win buttons,' because there is nothing to win; the game is not PvP focused.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
#5 I've tried to go back to studios. I've been burnt multiple times by the SAME studios. SOE, Cryptic, Funcom. I simply don't trust their products at launch anymore. For me to have blind faith in their next game would be laughable.
Are we supposed to take blame for bad game releases?
Since it is set up as the counterthread for the developer one, I'm assuming this is the message the author is trying to put out there.
Now the mistakes made in the dev thread lead to bad games ...
Do these supposedly gamer mistakes lead to bad games also ... or to turn it around will it prevent developers from making bad games if we don't make those mistakes?
The only people responsible for bad games are the companies putting the games out there (who the culprit is internally is food for another discussion)!
Are we supposed to take blame for bad game releases?
Since it is set up as the counterthread for the developer one, I'm assuming this is the message the author is trying to put out there.
Now the mistakes made in the dev thread lead to bad games ...
Do these supposedly gamer mistakes lead to bad games also ... or to turn it around will it prevent developers from making bad games if we don't make those mistakes?
The only people responsible for bad games are the companies putting the games out there (who the culprit is internally is food for another discussion)!
I don't think that was his point, I think it was more about the fact that us gamers don't really manage our expectations too well.
We imagine certain games (GW2, anyone?) to be the second coming and seem unable to approach them free of expectations (good, bad or indifferent). It's not that gamers are responsible for bad games, but we are responsible for how we react to games.
Look at the cycle of hype, speculation and "Bestest game EVAR!" the runs quickly to QQ-tsumanis and /ragequit posts at release for EVERY single game. I've said this before, but you'd think we'd have learned something from that by now.
You think the developers are responsible for that? Nah, no-one does. Players build up their own (often unrealistic, often misinformed, sometimes wilfully so) expectations for a game, and pillory developers for "letting them down". It would seem that no-one approaches games these days with an open mind - rather it's one eye on the hype meter and another on your personal issue of choice (PvE/PvP/death penalties/sandboxyness/boob sliders - take your pick).
Obviously the only culprits for bad games are the people that make them, but I don't think Bill was trying to claim otherwise. He was merely saying that we, as players, need to be smarter about hype-avoidance, and play the game we're offered without trying to make it into our own "personal ideal" game, and then decide (regardless of who makes it) whether we want to keep p(l)aying or not.
Are we supposed to take blame for bad game releases?
Since it is set up as the counterthread for the developer one, I'm assuming this is the message the author is trying to put out there.
Now the mistakes made in the dev thread lead to bad games ...
Do these supposedly gamer mistakes lead to bad games also ... or to turn it around will it prevent developers from making bad games if we don't make those mistakes?
The only people responsible for bad games are the companies putting the games out there (who the culprit is internally is food for another discussion)!
I don't think that was his point, I think it was more about the fact that us gamers don't really manage our expectations too well.
We imagine certain games (GW2, anyone?) to be the second coming and seem unable to approach them free of expectations (good, bad or indifferent). It's not that gamers are responsible for bad games, but we are responsible for how we react to games.
Look at the cycle of hype, speculation and "Bestest game EVAR!" the runs quickly to QQ-tsumanis and /ragequit posts at release for EVERY single game. I've said this before, but you'd think we'd have learned something from that by now.
You think the developers are responsible for that? Nah, no-one does. Players build up their own (often unrealistic, often misinformed, sometimes wilfully so) expectations for a game, and pillory developers for "letting them down". It would seem that no-one approaches games these days with an open mind - rather it's one eye on the hype meter and another on your personal issue of choice (PvE/PvP/death penalties/sandboxyness/boob sliders - take your pick).
Obviously the only culprits for bad games are the people that make them, but I don't think Bill was trying to claim otherwise. He was merely saying that we, as players, need to be smarter about hype-avoidance, and play the game we're offered without trying to make it into our own "personal ideal" game, and then decide (regardless of who makes it) whether we want to keep p(l)aying or not.
Makes sense...at least it does to me.
You are absolutely right when it comes to managing our expectations and then the op makes sense but ...
The List a week or two ago featured a look at the Top Developer Mistakes when making games. That column generated a lot of buzz around here at MMORPG.com. But devs aren't the only culpable parties when it comes to making mistakes. Players make mistakes too. In The List today, Lead Writer Bill Murphy takes a look at common player mistakes. Check it out and see if you agree or not.
... when I read the introduction to this article I can only interprete it as...
Ok dumbasses we know devs are to blame but don't forget you have a part in it to. So don't be so high and mighty with your remarks to the dev mistakes.
I totally disagree with #5. ppl normally don't shy away from certain studios because they don't like the style of their game, like Mr. Murphy's examples of novels and music imply. Ppl go away when they feel, that devs ignore them, lie to them even feel betrayed by them and turned into vaporware-buying paypigs. and it happens more often than not. and customers are rather too forgiving than too vengeful.
staying away from the products of a company is maybe the only means for a customer to educate the industry. evolution will ensure that the unpopular companies will die off or lose market shares, which enables better companies to take over. CCP is an example for a good company that includes the players into their design and development processes by a democratically elected council (CSM) and actually listens to them. how many companies do that?
so imo it is a good advice to carefully listen to what a company says and much more carefully look what a company DOES. and if you get the impression that they are lying bastards, stay away from them, you would do the same with normal ppl that are like this. this does not mean to shun them forever, but some years might yield some educational benefits, to give them time AND the incentive to throw out their bad apples.
on the other side i totally agree with #1. quite some time ago i stopped reading about games too much before release, since it gives always a false impression and more often than not an exaggerated one that leads to disappointment later. i dont expect the holy grail of mmos from listening to developer promises. i wont buy games that don't offer a free trial, thus giving me the chance to play them before spending money. i do not buy games shortly after release anymore and i layed down my ambitions of being one of the first to achieve xyz in a new game. let the fanbois betatest the banana products.
You are absolutely right when it comes to managing our expectations and then the op makes sense but ...
The List a week or two ago featured a look at the Top Developer Mistakes when making games. That column generated a lot of buzz around here at MMORPG.com. But devs aren't the only culpable parties when it comes to making mistakes. Players make mistakes too. In The List today, Lead Writer Bill Murphy takes a look at common player mistakes. Check it out and see if you agree or not.
... when I read the introduction to this article I can only interprete it as...
Ok dumbasses we know devs are to blame but don't forget you have a part in it to. So don't be so high and mighty with your remarks to the dev mistakes.
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but it stands to reason that given that both devs and players are human, we all make mistakes. Player mistakes don;t impact the game itself, but rather the general perception of the game.
I think he could possibly have written that intro a bit better - so it couldn't be interpreted as players creating bad games but rather players having their own set of quirks and flaws that make it hard to filter discussion about or reactions to games accurately.
Although...if players didn't exhibit these quirks and flaws, and all the rest of it, the forums would be pretty much dead-zones, since we'd all be rational and objective all the time
This may fall into one of those "be careful what you wish for" categories...
Comments
Becasue unlike LOTRO to where you have plenty of I win buttons. SOE station cash does not have anything that I would buy other than maybee a name change. Most of the stuff in there store is housing and decoration. The potions hold no interest to me. I have stuff that already can use to reset my vitality. I find the soe store to be calm compared to stuff like STO to where you actually buy ships that you cant get in game, well I guess you could buy 25 dollar mounts, but not me.
5- At some point you realize it's the guys at the top that are causing the problems. When creative teams change but the same crap keeps getting pumped out, what other conclusions can you draw?
4-Again, it's the guys at the top, not the designers.
3-Agreed. Acting like a douchebag will get you on TV, but it won't get your game fixed. Unless, of course, the devs refuse to listen. Then acting like a douchebag helps you cope.
2-Everyone likes what they like. There are many instances in life where you compromise for the good of all, but video games are the penultimate expression of "what I want to do with my free time". Nobody wants to spend it playing something fun for someone else and not them.
1-Do you realize what you wrote? "...don’t get too pumped about a title before you actually get to play it. Look at the hype meter for Guild Wars 2 on our site." Why the hell do you have a hype meter if you don't want people to get excited about a game before it's been released?! That's just the height of hypocrisy. Like Democrat politicians. Either take the hype meter away or retract your statement and come up with a new #1 for this list. Wow.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
#1 SHOULD BE NOT KNOWING WHERE I AM AT ALL TIMES cuz i shall greif KEEEEEL u!
Hilarious that there are so many people disagreeing with number 4.
A good and benevolent development team will design a game that people love to play, so that many many people will play the game and continue to enjoy the game for a long time. A bad and greedy development team will refuse to listen to their players, opting instead to design a game that just sucks in as many people as they can, and make whatever changes they need to in order to keep people paying them nonstop.
The difference between these two teams is... um... hang on...
I am guilty of #5 and will continue to be. Maybe not so much the studio as the people who run them... I won't touch another MMO that involves: Roper, Emmert, Godager, Jacobs, or McQuaid.
I won't write off the studio necessarily if they get rid of association with those names... but I just don't trust them farther than I can throw them. (and since we're on the internet, I can't throw them very far!)
Regaring your comment about not getting to excited for a game- while I believe this is sage advice, citing the hype level for guild wars 2 is a bit odd. The HYPE meter provided by this website is for EXACTLY that, for players to rate just how excited they are for a future product based on only the information available.
Doc
I just can't get over it... First, SOE went way overboard for asking about when some broken quests were going to finally get fixed. Then they go and completely mess up their game. ...All of this is regarding SWG.
And I gave them a second chance with EQ2. But when I saw the same thing happening again. I just gave up on them as a Company.
Now, yes, I do understand those responsible have probably left SOE (the head of customer service at the time is now CEO at Cryptic). Still I just cannot bring myself to trust them a 3rd time. And I don't see my attitude will ever change.
See part of it is that they don't release MMORPGs that frequently. And I'm fairly sure they feel allot of pressure to "get things right", at least from their prespective. But I don't think that companies, as a whole, change much at all. If anything they retain a certain "culture" even after many of the individual employees have gone. So the result is that they have an overwhelming tendency to make the same mistakes.
So regardless of your other points. I just can't accept #5.
I experienced point 1. Got ridiculously hyped over a game which was not even in alpha stage! But their to-do-list just happened to co-incide with my wish-list. I used to scour the internet regularly for any scraps of information I could find ... for around 2 years before beta ...
When it did finally come out, there were so many things that did not meet expectations. So many targets that were dropped from the original list. It's not a bad game. And with time it is improving ... but I was so disappointed I quit the game after a year ... ah well, might go back in a year or so.
Totally guilty of no. 2. And yea, I do have the best ideas, from my perspective :P
My ideal MMO would be a sandbox medieval fantasy setting with a trend for realism almost to the point of the almost mundane. Anyone who can't connect fantasy to realism is not worth explaining it to. But in my defence I don't impose my idea onto people. They're free to think whatever pleases them
Im going to aggree with the general consensus here. 4 and 5 are about 90% wrong and in the rare occasion that theyre right only serves to prove the rule. If i buy tp and its terrible i dont buy that tp again. and even free things have a reason for being free that can generally be translated into a profit in some way.
*drops his 2 cents and flees from the scene*
"If they had played the game, theyd probably be far more upset. Dragon Age also features digital prostitutes, lesbians, rather clean three way sex, inter-species erotica, war, decapitation, thinly veiled social commentary, alcohol, drug addiction, slavery, racism, sexism, sexual harassment, genocide, the death of children, demons, and more blood than a vampire drinking game." -Dana Massey
I believe the top player mistake is to demand everything to be included at launch. There are some features that can be delayed a little without there being serious consequences for the players' experience. Housing for example is normally not necessary at release, but can be delayed until the guilds have organized themselves and are able to harvest the resources needed for their hall.
As for your #1, buying the hype, I think we all suffer from this from time to time. Every once in a while I come across a concept that sounds intriguing and look forward to its release. My last one was AoC, and while I am still disappointed in how Funcom dropped that ball, I am still curious about how The Secret World will pan out.
Assuming that our ideas are the best is only natural. Otherwise we would not bother to offer them. The thing that drove me away from DAoC was their so-called archer patch some time back. I was a member of the critshot.com-community which was composed of archers from all three realms who discussed our classes. For most of the time, the Hunter, Ranger and Scout team leads were regulars on our forums, and there was a general consensus amongst all three realms what needed to be adressed with regards to archery, yet when the patch came archery changed completely and many of us felt we were reduced to cheap casters. The fact that Mythic allowed archers to run around with caster artifacts such as staff instead of bows only made us even less worth. Add to the fact that our recommendations, as portrayed through the TLs reports, were completely ignored only left us desillusioned.
Your #3 is directly tied in with the developer's vision. Sadly, LotRO appeared to add the PvP zone just to placate the ones who cried out for such opportunities. I followed their forums quite closely, and recall how vocal that minority was, but instead of telling them to look for PvP somewhere else, they added the Ettinmoor zone which offered the criers their place. Developers might prefer the honey, but if the vinegar is poured on heavily enough, then they will get results too.
My brother studies 3D design, and quite a number of his classmates are budding game designers, and I do not doubt their passion for games. Unfortunately, players have seen too many instances of MMOs being pushed out the door before they were ready, and they suffer as a consequence. The worst problem is that the game designers should have picked up on some of the problems long before they even began building the world. AoC is a prime example where players found their long damaging combos useless because their opponents dodged out of the way to disrupt the sequence before it was completed, thus rendering the attacker's efforts in vain. If a game beats its chest proclaiming to be the greatest PvP game, then such fundamental design mistakes must be avoided. One can speculate why this is, but that the money men behind the scenes call the shots is a fair assumption. It seems as if most companies have no clue as to the fundamentals of marketing: "A happy customer might tell two friends of a good encounter, but an unhappy one will tell everyone he/she meets."
Writing off a studio becomes easier with time. One might argur that Pixar would not be where they are today unless they hit a homerun early on, and Dreamworks would probably have failed despite their starring headline without initial success. When you describe Anarchy Online vs AoC, that has as much with personal preferances as the studio. Those are two completely different experiences. What I see as symptomatic is that both games struggled with their launches, and that Funcom needed to work hard after the launch to work out bugs that should have been taken care of. The old warrior's saying that "you are only as good as your last fight" goes for games also, and the number of recent games that has gone FTP or simply folded can be attributed to that.
I dont think the article is refering to having blind faith in anyone, but don't avoid giving anyone your potential intrest. If the last game you played from some company was horrible don't pre-order the next one, but if the next game looks like it has potential, then track the games development and not what players say (good and bad!!) when the game comes out. If the reviews of the game ever seem high enough to have potential + you are looking for a new game then perhaps give it a try. Perhaps by this time there is a demo or atleast plenty of game play videos + written guides and reviews. NEVER just say yes to a game because of the company or the story the game is based on, but NEVER say no for those reasons either- you might miss out on something that you would have enjoyed.
error-- "not what players say"
was suppose to be
"what players say"
QFT
This pretty much sums it up. How many chances should we give? If a company produces three MMOs in a row that I do not care for, and each game has the same core elements that I dislike, just how many more chances should I give them?
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
"I win buttons?" Have you actually played LotRO? There are no 'I win buttons,' because there is nothing to win; the game is not PvP focused.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
I couldnt have said it better myself.
Yes I have lets go over those for you.
(1) Tomes tomes and more tomes
(2) Rep mounts for level 5 toons
(3) Potions, foods that you cant get in game
(4) and comming soon deconds for your your LI's.
Wondering what else they are going to add.
Yes I consider those I win buttons for folks unwilling to go about it the hard way.
#1 is oh so true
and GW2 is the perfect example.
I think you are exactly right. (I might replace the word "players" in the above with "posters" ...)
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
I honestly don't understand this thread!
Are we supposed to take blame for bad game releases?
Since it is set up as the counterthread for the developer one, I'm assuming this is the message the author is trying to put out there.
Now the mistakes made in the dev thread lead to bad games ...
Do these supposedly gamer mistakes lead to bad games also ... or to turn it around will it prevent developers from making bad games if we don't make those mistakes?
The only people responsible for bad games are the companies putting the games out there (who the culprit is internally is food for another discussion)!
I don't think that was his point, I think it was more about the fact that us gamers don't really manage our expectations too well.
We imagine certain games (GW2, anyone?) to be the second coming and seem unable to approach them free of expectations (good, bad or indifferent). It's not that gamers are responsible for bad games, but we are responsible for how we react to games.
Look at the cycle of hype, speculation and "Bestest game EVAR!" the runs quickly to QQ-tsumanis and /ragequit posts at release for EVERY single game. I've said this before, but you'd think we'd have learned something from that by now.
You think the developers are responsible for that? Nah, no-one does. Players build up their own (often unrealistic, often misinformed, sometimes wilfully so) expectations for a game, and pillory developers for "letting them down". It would seem that no-one approaches games these days with an open mind - rather it's one eye on the hype meter and another on your personal issue of choice (PvE/PvP/death penalties/sandboxyness/boob sliders - take your pick).
Obviously the only culprits for bad games are the people that make them, but I don't think Bill was trying to claim otherwise. He was merely saying that we, as players, need to be smarter about hype-avoidance, and play the game we're offered without trying to make it into our own "personal ideal" game, and then decide (regardless of who makes it) whether we want to keep p(l)aying or not.
Makes sense...at least it does to me.
You are absolutely right when it comes to managing our expectations and then the op makes sense but ...
The List a week or two ago featured a look at the Top Developer Mistakes when making games. That column generated a lot of buzz around here at MMORPG.com. But devs aren't the only culpable parties when it comes to making mistakes. Players make mistakes too. In The List today, Lead Writer Bill Murphy takes a look at common player mistakes. Check it out and see if you agree or not.
... when I read the introduction to this article I can only interprete it as...
Ok dumbasses we know devs are to blame but don't forget you have a part in it to. So don't be so high and mighty with your remarks to the dev mistakes.
You don't have to take our player suggestions, but we're not trying to sell you anything.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
I totally disagree with #5. ppl normally don't shy away from certain studios because they don't like the style of their game, like Mr. Murphy's examples of novels and music imply. Ppl go away when they feel, that devs ignore them, lie to them even feel betrayed by them and turned into vaporware-buying paypigs. and it happens more often than not. and customers are rather too forgiving than too vengeful.
staying away from the products of a company is maybe the only means for a customer to educate the industry. evolution will ensure that the unpopular companies will die off or lose market shares, which enables better companies to take over. CCP is an example for a good company that includes the players into their design and development processes by a democratically elected council (CSM) and actually listens to them. how many companies do that?
so imo it is a good advice to carefully listen to what a company says and much more carefully look what a company DOES. and if you get the impression that they are lying bastards, stay away from them, you would do the same with normal ppl that are like this. this does not mean to shun them forever, but some years might yield some educational benefits, to give them time AND the incentive to throw out their bad apples.
on the other side i totally agree with #1. quite some time ago i stopped reading about games too much before release, since it gives always a false impression and more often than not an exaggerated one that leads to disappointment later. i dont expect the holy grail of mmos from listening to developer promises. i wont buy games that don't offer a free trial, thus giving me the chance to play them before spending money. i do not buy games shortly after release anymore and i layed down my ambitions of being one of the first to achieve xyz in a new game. let the fanbois betatest the banana products.
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but it stands to reason that given that both devs and players are human, we all make mistakes. Player mistakes don;t impact the game itself, but rather the general perception of the game.
I think he could possibly have written that intro a bit better - so it couldn't be interpreted as players creating bad games but rather players having their own set of quirks and flaws that make it hard to filter discussion about or reactions to games accurately.
Although...if players didn't exhibit these quirks and flaws, and all the rest of it, the forums would be pretty much dead-zones, since we'd all be rational and objective all the time
This may fall into one of those "be careful what you wish for" categories...