MMO cities are designed with a few goals in mind. One of them is to create that sense of, well, massiveness. Another very important goal, however, is to include all the important functional MMO hotspots and make them all conveniently accessible to players. By hotspots I mean class trainers, profession trainers, stables, auction house(s), bank(s), inns, etc.
Ease of accessibility to all of these hotspots would be severely compromised in a city like Damascus in Assassin's Creed. Many players have already been complaining of travel time from one hotspot to another in MMO cities. If Damascus were an MMO city, you would need to either make 90% of the buildings empty and/or make theirs interior inaccessible (like they are in AC), or you would need to add 30+ auction houses, banks, class and profession trainers/workers, and inns so you literally run into these hotspots all over the place. Neither are very compelling options imo.
I too loved the layout of the cities in AC. They worked for the game. Most of the buildings were nothing but climbing objects. The environment was a playground of props to be used as part of the game's action-oriented quest objectives. That's just not the case in MMO gameplay, however. Having 90% of MMO buildings be nothing more than empty props would create a dull, empty--albeit appropriately massive--atmosphere. Not to mention player after player would become increasingly frustrated every time they entered a new city and just wanted to find their class trainer.
That's all very true.
The problem is that an mmo city just doesn't operate like a "real life" city. It only has a few things that it needs to do and those things, though they can be duplicated might seem silly if they were duplicated over a large area.
I remember finally getting to Baldur's Gate in "Baldur's Gate". I kept going into every door that I could find but realized after a while that it was all the same thing for the most part.
If an mmo were to have one type of armor one place, another in another place, trainers spread out all over the place, etc, then players would just complain.
Assuming there were trainers.
I alwasy thought that if an mmo had a robust crafting system where players had some control over what they create, that store space could be given to players (in a "massive" city).
But then we would just get the screaming about how an Auction House is better.
You mentioned earlier about cities in L2 and I agree the cities are stunning and do feel like cities, I do think they missed an opportunity to populate properly, even with the introduction of clan halls I dont think it was enough, there is still so much unused space, they missed out on adding height and floors to the already amazing house models as well as allow players to purchase or rent these places for vendors etc...
The cathedrals on the main cities for instance, I felt were under used, they could have different levels and much more detail inside, this ofc would mean add more functionality not just empty rooms or NPCs doing the same.
When I first joined Lineage 2 I was surprised to see that a good many buildings were essentially props.
There was a time we were running to that city on the coast, west of gludio (that for the life of me I can't remember) and we passed a cabin with an npc. So my clanmate ran up to the npc but it was nothing. Then there is a windmill that is high on a hill as you go through a small ravine into "The wastes". I spent a small amount of time trying to figure out how one got up to it only to realize there wasn't any way to get to it.
Shame that.
However, what made Lineage 2's cities "Cities" was that a lot went on in them.
There were trainers, specialty stores like "The Luxury Shop" (in Giran) Clan halls (could be more I agree) Blacksmiths for upgrading weapons, the bank, people hawking their wares or people shouting they could craft x and y.
Giran was great!
Like my first 6 months in Darkfall. I felt 'omg there is going to be so much content coming because of all these static locations' I felt myself about to cry with joy.
only it never came
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The game I played that had the best city feel was Gods & Heroes before they stopped development. Rome was massive and there were plenty of buildings you could enter. The whole map was basically the city and some vendors outside the city gates. Some quests even sent you to different parts of the city in which some buildings and neighborhoods you had to fight your way through. The only knock was the low population, but that could have changed if the game became popular and was actually finished and released.
The game I played that had the best city feel was Gods & Heroes before they stopped development. Rome was massive and there were plenty of buildings you could enter. The whole map was basically the city and some vendors outside the city gates. Some quests even sent you to different parts of the city in which some buildings and neighborhoods you had to fight your way through. The only knock was the low population, but that could have changed if the game became popular and was actually finished and released.
Slightly off topic but you do know that Gods and Heroes was picked up and is now being developed again?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The game I played that had the best city feel was Gods & Heroes before they stopped development. Rome was massive and there were plenty of buildings you could enter. The whole map was basically the city and some vendors outside the city gates. Some quests even sent you to different parts of the city in which some buildings and neighborhoods you had to fight your way through. The only knock was the low population, but that could have changed if the game became popular and was actually finished and released.
Slightly off topic but you do know that Gods and Heroes was picked up and is now being developed again?
Yep and I'm a tester. I just can't comment on the current project so I commented on what it used to be like under the previous developer! *wink*
MMO cities are designed with a few goals in mind. One of them is to create that sense of, well, massiveness. Another very important goal, however, is to include all the important functional MMO hotspots and make them all conveniently accessible to players. By hotspots I mean class trainers, profession trainers, stables, auction house(s), bank(s), inns, etc.
Ease of accessibility to all of these hotspots would be severely compromised in a city like Damascus in Assassin's Creed. Many players have already been complaining of travel time from one hotspot to another in MMO cities. If Damascus were an MMO city, you would need to either make 90% of the buildings empty and/or make theirs interior inaccessible (like they are in AC), or you would need to add 30+ auction houses, banks, class and profession trainers/workers, and inns so you literally run into these hotspots all over the place. Neither are very compelling options imo.
I too loved the layout of the cities in AC. They worked for the game. Most of the buildings were nothing but climbing objects. The environment was a playground of props to be used as part of the game's action-oriented quest objectives. That's just not the case in MMO gameplay, however. Having 90% of MMO buildings be nothing more than empty props would create a dull, empty--albeit appropriately massive--atmosphere. Not to mention player after player would become increasingly frustrated every time they entered a new city and just wanted to find their class trainer.
That's all very true.
The problem is that an mmo city just doesn't operate like a "real life" city. It only has a few things that it needs to do and those things, though they can be duplicated might seem silly if they were duplicated over a large area.
I remember finally getting to Baldur's Gate in "Baldur's Gate". I kept going into every door that I could find but realized after a while that it was all the same thing for the most part.
If an mmo were to have one type of armor one place, another in another place, trainers spread out all over the place, etc, then players would just complain.
Assuming there were trainers.
I alwasy thought that if an mmo had a robust crafting system where players had some control over what they create, that store space could be given to players (in a "massive" city).
But then we would just get the screaming about how an Auction House is better.
You mentioned earlier about cities in L2 and I agree the cities are stunning and do feel like cities, I do think they missed an opportunity to populate properly, even with the introduction of clan halls I dont think it was enough, there is still so much unused space, they missed out on adding height and floors to the already amazing house models as well as allow players to purchase or rent these places for vendors etc...
The cathedrals on the main cities for instance, I felt were under used, they could have different levels and much more detail inside, this ofc would mean add more functionality not just empty rooms or NPCs doing the same.
I think the best possible balance between authentically scaled cities and the needs of a standard MMO city lies in placing those necessary MMO "hotspots," like class trainers, in grandios structures. Place the priest trainers inside a massive cathedral or abbey. Place the warrior class trainers inside a barracks or castle. Then bring those places to life. Truly make the castle a castle. Add a royal hall, a dining hall, meeting hall, a library, the royal family's living quarters, a military operations room. Have servents bustling about with tasks, employees going about their business on behalf of the royal family.
Apart from adjusting the city architecture and layout, I think this "living, breathing" aspect of city life is something very much within the means of an MMO and could help create the sensation that you're actually in an authentically massive, medieval city. NPCs that don't just stand still or patrol in the same ciruit over and over again. Dynamic voice acted dialogue between NPCs layered over background ambiance of the hustle and bustle that comes with city life. Of course, I'm thinking of the many GW2 sound bites we've heard so far. Given the OP's concerns about cities and MMOs, I think the might be pleasantly surprised by what GW2 has to offer...assuming all the previews live up to thier hype.
MMO cities are designed with a few goals in mind. One of them is to create that sense of, well, massiveness. Another very important goal, however, is to include all the important functional MMO hotspots and make them all conveniently accessible to players. By hotspots I mean class trainers, profession trainers, stables, auction house(s), bank(s), inns, etc.
Ease of accessibility to all of these hotspots would be severely compromised in a city like Damascus in Assassin's Creed. Many players have already been complaining of travel time from one hotspot to another in MMO cities. If Damascus were an MMO city, you would need to either make 90% of the buildings empty and/or make theirs interior inaccessible (like they are in AC), or you would need to add 30+ auction houses, banks, class and profession trainers/workers, and inns so you literally run into these hotspots all over the place. Neither are very compelling options imo.
I too loved the layout of the cities in AC. They worked for the game. Most of the buildings were nothing but climbing objects. The environment was a playground of props to be used as part of the game's action-oriented quest objectives. That's just not the case in MMO gameplay, however. Having 90% of MMO buildings be nothing more than empty props would create a dull, empty--albeit appropriately massive--atmosphere. Not to mention player after player would become increasingly frustrated every time they entered a new city and just wanted to find their class trainer.
That's all very true.
The problem is that an mmo city just doesn't operate like a "real life" city. It only has a few things that it needs to do and those things, though they can be duplicated might seem silly if they were duplicated over a large area.
I remember finally getting to Baldur's Gate in "Baldur's Gate". I kept going into every door that I could find but realized after a while that it was all the same thing for the most part.
If an mmo were to have one type of armor one place, another in another place, trainers spread out all over the place, etc, then players would just complain.
Assuming there were trainers.
I alwasy thought that if an mmo had a robust crafting system where players had some control over what they create, that store space could be given to players (in a "massive" city).
But then we would just get the screaming about how an Auction House is better.
You mentioned earlier about cities in L2 and I agree the cities are stunning and do feel like cities, I do think they missed an opportunity to populate properly, even with the introduction of clan halls I dont think it was enough, there is still so much unused space, they missed out on adding height and floors to the already amazing house models as well as allow players to purchase or rent these places for vendors etc...
The cathedrals on the main cities for instance, I felt were under used, they could have different levels and much more detail inside, this ofc would mean add more functionality not just empty rooms or NPCs doing the same.
When I first joined Lineage 2 I was surprised to see that a good many buildings were essentially props.
There was a time we were running to that city on the coast, west of gludio (that for the life of me I can't remember) and we passed a cabin with an npc. So my clanmate ran up to the npc but it was nothing. Then there is a windmill that is high on a hill as you go through a small ravine into "The wastes". I spent a small amount of time trying to figure out how one got up to it only to realize there wasn't any way to get to it.
Shame that.
However, what made Lineage 2's cities "Cities" was that a lot went on in them.
There were trainers, specialty stores like "The Luxury Shop" (in Giran) Clan halls (could be more I agree) Blacksmiths for upgrading weapons, the bank, people hawking their wares or people shouting they could craft x and y.
Giran was great!
Giran was indeed great and really the center of L2 for many expansions, the great thing about L2 is that the cities never became deserted, you could find anything in Giran, but Dion, Oren, Hunter's Village where still hotspots for particular goods, books in hunter's village comes to mind, I find this sort of interaction very nice, where you know where you need to go to purchase certain goods.
I am hoping ArchAge can live up to Lineage 2 and really improve on this design, seeing as really NCSoft ignored a lot of Jake Song's original Lineage design but it still made a great game, with free reign to do what he wants hopefully we can see the full picture.
Great topic, OP! It is something that bothers me too. I could widen the topic, saying, often game worlds don't feel like real game worlds at all. Cities are just one example of how MMORPGs most time fail to evoke that feeling.
What makes a beliveable city?
1) SIZE: There is no point arguing, the bigger the better. It's how people critizise "cities" like Sanctuary in Rift. Beyond a certain size a city doesn't feel like a city. One of the best cities I have seen was Gotham/Metropolis in DCU. Ok, a modern city, but it is really HUGE and has many different parts.
2) MADE OF DIFFEREN PARTS: Every real city has different parts (do you say quarters in English too??). A real city is not just one lumped together spot of buildings.
3) ANIMATED CITY LIFE: Something WOW's Stormwind does really nice. People talk to each other, a kindergarten moves by, kids play chase, guards change at some time of the day, a baker walkes around trying to sell bread, an ambassador making a daily walk; all these things to animate a civil life.
4) 3D ENVIRONMENT: You can explore the city in all three dimensions. Nothing made me feel Stormwind or the cities of CoX so real, as to be able to FLY in them.
5) EVERY DOOR LEADS TO A HOUSE: Something I'd want to see, and no merely symbolic doors. ^^
6) HIGHLIGH AREAS/SOCIAL GARHERING PLACES: A good city needs some places designed to make people gather and meet. Like CoH's Atlas Park, Stormwinds Market Place or the like. Many MMO cities were so strangely designed, there never was a meeting place. Bad example: unfortunately Gotham/Metropolis from DCU. There just isn't a place, easy to find where everyone meets and greets daily.
7) PLACEMENT OF THE CITY IN THE WORLD: Nothing is more useless than a major city dislocated on the world map. Like Vanguards Agrham or New Torgonor. New Torg. was a nice city, great to look at, but it was SO waaaay off from the starter levels, it never was alife. A MMO needs city hubs reachable for early level players.
8) BUILDING SIZE: In past ages of games, houses had a more symbolic function. They were not really as big as a real building is compared to a real person. Today we have gotten closer to this. Houses need to be big to really make a city feel like a city. Good example is again Gotham/Metreopolis from DCU.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think devs are missing out on versatility of content by not having large cities (and the crime rates that accompany them) that not only act as a quest hub but the location of the quest. Maybe some players want to do something besides the normal ecocide quests. Fight against the organised crime or work for them etc. When you get tired of that for the day got on some epic monster slaying quest.
Hm, great point indeed.
Lol, ecocide... nice term. Yeah, I am a bit weary of that. XD
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
because i don't want to spend 30 minutes walking to an auction house everytime i want to sell something.
Lol, cities from the middle ages were not that huge, the only truly big one in Europe at the time were Rome with 2 million citizens.
Wisby (which is close to perfectly preserved and were normal+ size city in the 13th century has about 10 minutes IRL walk to the center no matter were you enter it. And that is when the city is full with people, in a MMO it probably would take 5 minutes and that is pretty acceptable to me, and you could always split up the markethouse into 2-4 brokers standing in strategic points.
Travel time is not actually a problem in a well built town unless you hide in small alleys or take the theives way (the rooftops) to not be seen. And towns at the time were actually rather well built, besides the fact that only Rome had sewage.
I must say that a game that would recreate ancient Rome and have a lot of city adventuring would be really cool. We do have loads of knowledge about it so recreating it pretty realistic is actually really possible and in fact could most of the game be inside the city walls. I would play that at least.
The problem is that they are online, and have hundreds if not thousands of players.
The bigger and more expansive/graphically impressive the city, the more resources it takes on your PC/console as well as on the server end.
MMORPG's have to balance this out with the demands on the network and servers/pcs/consoles of users.
One day, when everyone has fiber going to their home and we're all playing on pcs/consoles that would be super-computers by todays commercial standards, we will see cities in MMOs that look like this.
Not actually a problem , the only element that impacts server end is the actual objects and this will be no more in a detailed city than any zone with content. Local Server(PC) is always the issue, as in can it process the graphics workload (CArd or CPU) and sync with any remote lag seamlessley.
Games don't invest in great cities because generally people outlevel content so fast whats the point... I think this is one of the general issues. I can't wait for SWTOR to come out as I am expecting one of the most in depth cities ever with Corruscant. Lets see if they actually pull of something special or just fail like most of the other MMOs.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
a city feature would be a great option for alternative income generation
people can build buildings and set spaces for renting
people can also be drivers (or any similar jobs) to bring people from one place to another... think about it... taxi driver by day... ninja assassin by night!
Wonder how much interest there would be for a game world that was a huge city. No outlaying areas just the city itself.
Naturally as the entire game is based in the city it would be huge. But i wonder if people would play a game and woudln't mind being restricted to just the city or huge town.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Wonder how much interest there would be for a game world that was a huge city. No outlaying areas just the city itself.
Naturally as the entire game is based in the city it would be huge. But i wonder if people would play a game and woudln't mind being restricted to just the city or huge town.
It works well in P&P like in Greyhawk. As long as there is enough to do it would work.
A city is far more complicated than a forest and can have several levels from the sewers (and possible whats below the sewers like Undermountain under Waterdeep) to the highest buildings.
The city would however have to be gigantic, but if you make it right it could be a lot of fun to play in.
Wonder how much interest there would be for a game world that was a huge city. No outlaying areas just the city itself.
Naturally as the entire game is based in the city it would be huge. But i wonder if people would play a game and woudln't mind being restricted to just the city or huge town.
Going on a tangent here but Dragon Age2 is set in a single city (Kirkwall) with some smallish other areas.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Games don't invest in great cities because generally people outlevel content so fast whats the point... I think this is one of the general issues. I can't wait for SWTOR to come out as I am expecting one of the most in depth cities ever with Corruscant. Lets see if they actually pull of something special or just fail like most of the other MMOs.
I think that's the problem with some of these games, the cities are mostly "hubs" where players of a certain range go and then move on.
One nice thing in Lineage 2 was that, even though the cities followed this level range idea, the city of Giran really was there for players of many levels once they were high enough to get there.
One could find players selling low lvl gear along with higher lvl gear. Of course this was the first few years it was running.
If there was a ctiy that was a central area for commerce we could have a place where lower lvl and higher lvl players (assuming there were levels) could mingle. Lower lvl players could find guilds, advice, help, etc.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
There are several probel with cities in most mmorpgs, imho:
No Sprawl
Poor building Scale
Poor texture Scale
the 'Bank and AH Hub' mentality
Not enough denizens
No sprawl: speaks for itself...the city simply does not cover enough land area. It is a postage stamp inside a region instead of a region unto itself.
Poor building scale: again, is obvious. You frequently buildings that are not meant to be entered, they are just decoration...and for good reason, because you probably couldn't fit inside! Again, FFXI has some nice scale in certain cities, like Jeuno:
Poor texture scale: A building might be sufficiently large, but then the artists slapped a brick texture that is simply the wrong scale for what one would expect for a building of said size. The results is that the building looks like a miniature:
Poor Texture Scale = Stormwind
Decent Texture Scale = RIFt Village
AH and bank Hub: Cities should be so huge that they have a TON of stuff to do...quests, combat areas, shops, AH's Banks, Sewers, Player Housing, etc. Not just be the 'Player Services' Hub of the game. In a large city, every type of gameplay that is offerred for a given title should be available in one form or another.
Not enough Denizens: This is arguable a bad idea because of its impact on resources, but cities should have just a metric Eff-ton of people roaming around. The great part is that cities are cluttered, greatly cutting down a players Line of Sight, This should make is possible for a players client-side app to only draw 'Filler' NPCs within the viewable area (Frustrum).
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
Wonder how much interest there would be for a game world that was a huge city. No outlaying areas just the city itself.
Naturally as the entire game is based in the city it would be huge. But i wonder if people would play a game and woudln't mind being restricted to just the city or huge town.
But players are always restricted. No game world is unlimited. If you would have a city with the size of Kalimdor in WoW (western continent), wouldn't that be a huge gameworld? Considering that natural terrain mostly is 2dimensional with some slopes and maybe high mountains and ridges. a city could be totally three-dimensional with many levels, which would make a much larger and complex gameworld of the same area.
Comments
Like my first 6 months in Darkfall. I felt 'omg there is going to be so much content coming because of all these static locations' I felt myself about to cry with joy.
only it never came
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The game I played that had the best city feel was Gods & Heroes before they stopped development. Rome was massive and there were plenty of buildings you could enter. The whole map was basically the city and some vendors outside the city gates. Some quests even sent you to different parts of the city in which some buildings and neighborhoods you had to fight your way through. The only knock was the low population, but that could have changed if the game became popular and was actually finished and released.
Slightly off topic but you do know that Gods and Heroes was picked up and is now being developed again?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yep and I'm a tester. I just can't comment on the current project so I commented on what it used to be like under the previous developer! *wink*
I think the best possible balance between authentically scaled cities and the needs of a standard MMO city lies in placing those necessary MMO "hotspots," like class trainers, in grandios structures. Place the priest trainers inside a massive cathedral or abbey. Place the warrior class trainers inside a barracks or castle. Then bring those places to life. Truly make the castle a castle. Add a royal hall, a dining hall, meeting hall, a library, the royal family's living quarters, a military operations room. Have servents bustling about with tasks, employees going about their business on behalf of the royal family.
Apart from adjusting the city architecture and layout, I think this "living, breathing" aspect of city life is something very much within the means of an MMO and could help create the sensation that you're actually in an authentically massive, medieval city. NPCs that don't just stand still or patrol in the same ciruit over and over again. Dynamic voice acted dialogue between NPCs layered over background ambiance of the hustle and bustle that comes with city life. Of course, I'm thinking of the many GW2 sound bites we've heard so far. Given the OP's concerns about cities and MMOs, I think the might be pleasantly surprised by what GW2 has to offer...assuming all the previews live up to thier hype.
Giran was indeed great and really the center of L2 for many expansions, the great thing about L2 is that the cities never became deserted, you could find anything in Giran, but Dion, Oren, Hunter's Village where still hotspots for particular goods, books in hunter's village comes to mind, I find this sort of interaction very nice, where you know where you need to go to purchase certain goods.
I am hoping ArchAge can live up to Lineage 2 and really improve on this design, seeing as really NCSoft ignored a lot of Jake Song's original Lineage design but it still made a great game, with free reign to do what he wants hopefully we can see the full picture.
Great topic, OP! It is something that bothers me too. I could widen the topic, saying, often game worlds don't feel like real game worlds at all. Cities are just one example of how MMORPGs most time fail to evoke that feeling.
What makes a beliveable city?
1) SIZE: There is no point arguing, the bigger the better. It's how people critizise "cities" like Sanctuary in Rift. Beyond a certain size a city doesn't feel like a city. One of the best cities I have seen was Gotham/Metropolis in DCU. Ok, a modern city, but it is really HUGE and has many different parts.
2) MADE OF DIFFEREN PARTS: Every real city has different parts (do you say quarters in English too??). A real city is not just one lumped together spot of buildings.
3) ANIMATED CITY LIFE: Something WOW's Stormwind does really nice. People talk to each other, a kindergarten moves by, kids play chase, guards change at some time of the day, a baker walkes around trying to sell bread, an ambassador making a daily walk; all these things to animate a civil life.
4) 3D ENVIRONMENT: You can explore the city in all three dimensions. Nothing made me feel Stormwind or the cities of CoX so real, as to be able to FLY in them.
5) EVERY DOOR LEADS TO A HOUSE: Something I'd want to see, and no merely symbolic doors. ^^
6) HIGHLIGH AREAS/SOCIAL GARHERING PLACES: A good city needs some places designed to make people gather and meet. Like CoH's Atlas Park, Stormwinds Market Place or the like. Many MMO cities were so strangely designed, there never was a meeting place. Bad example: unfortunately Gotham/Metropolis from DCU. There just isn't a place, easy to find where everyone meets and greets daily.
7) PLACEMENT OF THE CITY IN THE WORLD: Nothing is more useless than a major city dislocated on the world map. Like Vanguards Agrham or New Torgonor. New Torg. was a nice city, great to look at, but it was SO waaaay off from the starter levels, it never was alife. A MMO needs city hubs reachable for early level players.
8) BUILDING SIZE: In past ages of games, houses had a more symbolic function. They were not really as big as a real building is compared to a real person. Today we have gotten closer to this. Houses need to be big to really make a city feel like a city. Good example is again Gotham/Metreopolis from DCU.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What do people think about the effectiveness of City of Heroes to present an urban MMO?
Hm, great point indeed.
Lol, ecocide... nice term. Yeah, I am a bit weary of that. XD
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
because i don't want to spend 30 minutes walking to an auction house everytime i want to sell something.
Lol, cities from the middle ages were not that huge, the only truly big one in Europe at the time were Rome with 2 million citizens.
Wisby (which is close to perfectly preserved and were normal+ size city in the 13th century has about 10 minutes IRL walk to the center no matter were you enter it. And that is when the city is full with people, in a MMO it probably would take 5 minutes and that is pretty acceptable to me, and you could always split up the markethouse into 2-4 brokers standing in strategic points.
Travel time is not actually a problem in a well built town unless you hide in small alleys or take the theives way (the rooftops) to not be seen. And towns at the time were actually rather well built, besides the fact that only Rome had sewage.
I must say that a game that would recreate ancient Rome and have a lot of city adventuring would be really cool. We do have loads of knowledge about it so recreating it pretty realistic is actually really possible and in fact could most of the game be inside the city walls. I would play that at least.
Not actually a problem , the only element that impacts server end is the actual objects and this will be no more in a detailed city than any zone with content. Local Server(PC) is always the issue, as in can it process the graphics workload (CArd or CPU) and sync with any remote lag seamlessley.
Games don't invest in great cities because generally people outlevel content so fast whats the point... I think this is one of the general issues. I can't wait for SWTOR to come out as I am expecting one of the most in depth cities ever with Corruscant. Lets see if they actually pull of something special or just fail like most of the other MMOs.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
a city feature would be a great option for alternative income generation
people can build buildings and set spaces for renting
people can also be drivers (or any similar jobs) to bring people from one place to another... think about it... taxi driver by day... ninja assassin by night!
Wonder how much interest there would be for a game world that was a huge city. No outlaying areas just the city itself.
Naturally as the entire game is based in the city it would be huge. But i wonder if people would play a game and woudln't mind being restricted to just the city or huge town.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
It works well in P&P like in Greyhawk. As long as there is enough to do it would work.
A city is far more complicated than a forest and can have several levels from the sewers (and possible whats below the sewers like Undermountain under Waterdeep) to the highest buildings.
The city would however have to be gigantic, but if you make it right it could be a lot of fun to play in.
Going on a tangent here but Dragon Age2 is set in a single city (Kirkwall) with some smallish other areas.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I think that's the problem with some of these games, the cities are mostly "hubs" where players of a certain range go and then move on.
One nice thing in Lineage 2 was that, even though the cities followed this level range idea, the city of Giran really was there for players of many levels once they were high enough to get there.
One could find players selling low lvl gear along with higher lvl gear. Of course this was the first few years it was running.
If there was a ctiy that was a central area for commerce we could have a place where lower lvl and higher lvl players (assuming there were levels) could mingle. Lower lvl players could find guilds, advice, help, etc.
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There are several probel with cities in most mmorpgs, imho:
No Sprawl
Poor building Scale
Poor texture Scale
the 'Bank and AH Hub' mentality
Not enough denizens
No sprawl: speaks for itself...the city simply does not cover enough land area. It is a postage stamp inside a region instead of a region unto itself.
Poor building scale: again, is obvious. You frequently buildings that are not meant to be entered, they are just decoration...and for good reason, because you probably couldn't fit inside! Again, FFXI has some nice scale in certain cities, like Jeuno:
Poor texture scale: A building might be sufficiently large, but then the artists slapped a brick texture that is simply the wrong scale for what one would expect for a building of said size. The results is that the building looks like a miniature:
Poor Texture Scale = Stormwind
Decent Texture Scale = RIFt Village
AH and bank Hub: Cities should be so huge that they have a TON of stuff to do...quests, combat areas, shops, AH's Banks, Sewers, Player Housing, etc. Not just be the 'Player Services' Hub of the game. In a large city, every type of gameplay that is offerred for a given title should be available in one form or another.
Not enough Denizens: This is arguable a bad idea because of its impact on resources, but cities should have just a metric Eff-ton of people roaming around. The great part is that cities are cluttered, greatly cutting down a players Line of Sight, This should make is possible for a players client-side app to only draw 'Filler' NPCs within the viewable area (Frustrum).
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But players are always restricted. No game world is unlimited. If you would have a city with the size of Kalimdor in WoW (western continent), wouldn't that be a huge gameworld? Considering that natural terrain mostly is 2dimensional with some slopes and maybe high mountains and ridges. a city could be totally three-dimensional with many levels, which would make a much larger and complex gameworld of the same area.