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General: Bring Your Own Sand
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
One of the perennial arguments amongst MMO gamers is the one that centers around Theme Park vs Sandbox games. Proponents of one or the other draw battle lines and argue vehemently that "theirs is the best type" of MMO. In today's Player Perspectives, MMORPG.com columnist Isabelle Parsley takes a look at these two MMO types. She's got a lot to say about them so be sure to check out her article. Leave us your thoughts in the comments.
So what makes one game a sandbox and another a theme park? In very general terms, theme park games tend to have much more structured progress from level 1 to the level cap and usually beyond. Progression is clearly defined and the activities players carry out to achieve said progression are clearly marked and clearly chained (usually in the form of zones and quests). On the other hand, sandbox games don’t usually tell you what to do and when and some may not have levels at all, like the early SWG or the entirely skill-point based EVE.
Read more of Isabelle Parsley's Player Perspectives: Bring Your Own Sand.
Comments
I'd like to quote you on this one:
"Ultimately it doesn’t matter what you play, or why, or how, as long as you’re having fun."
One phrase to rule them all.
I keep seeing Fallen Earth cited as a sandbox and I'm curious what features/tools it has that make it any more of a sandbox than Aion or LOTRO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It really isn't much more of a sandbox than any of those games. It's still heavily quest oriented, with linear quest hub/zone progression.
This was an incredibly entertaining read. I have to say that I agree with it almost completely. A game really is what the players make of it and we should be having fun with it no matter what.
Retired: EVE, SWG, STO, EQ2, Ryzom, AO, LotRO, FFXI
Currently Awaiting: SWTOR, TSW, ArcheAge
Excellent article. Very nice touch points utilizing different playstyles versus different players. I have played both themepark and sandbox games and find that "change of pace" is what keeps me in games. I tend to play sandbox games for longer periods of times than themeparks before I switch to the other.
I will and do find the best fun in a game comes, not from the playstyle or theme, but from playing with friends and family. Playing with people I enjoy spending time with makes any game enjoyable.
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
For me the definition of a sandbox is pretty broad. What I tend to focus on is how much choice and freedom my char has and the games' encouragment or discouragement of community as big factors regardless of whether it is defined as a themepark or sandbox.
For example an MMORPG that casts every single char as the main char in the mandatory main storyline.
Poor UI with regards to communication between chars.
Lack of or gimped crafting/economy dynamics
Only 1 faction and every player is in it.
Not being able to look or dress distinctively (Non-combat clothes).
What makes it more sandboxy than others is that you dont have to level via quests. You can, but it can be as fast or faster to level grinding. You can also level some of crafting and gathering, but imo it is slower.
So traditional sandbox? not in my opinion, but def more than your typical MMO out right now.
Also, the lack of classes i think.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Because, people think crafting = sandbox. The same way they say it has a great crafting system, when in reality it doesn't. Again, just because everything is crafted, doesn't make the crafting good. In fact, the crafting is no more complex or better than WoW's, it just has 100 times more materials that you have to store. Not to mention, crafting is rather pointless if you're an ecnomy player, because Fallen Earth has nothing that even remotely resembles an economy.
To me, Fallen Earth is not much different than a Post-Apoc Sim on Second Life. (I think combat may be better in Second Life too! lol) The only purpose to playing, is for the sake of playing. Most people in the world want goals and at least some reason to play, even if that reason isn't real.
Sorry, the train wreck that is Fallen Earth is probably the biggest let down in my entire 10yr MMO virtual life. There really are no good aspects of the game and it's pathetic that it keeps getting put on a pedestal. The game from the ground up is completely flawed in every way imaginable.
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You can grind to 80 in WoW. I'm not sure about Cat, but in Vanilla, TBC, and WoTLK, you could grind mobs all day long to 80 if that's what you wanted.
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This debate is just a matter of opinion. I personally find skill based systems far superior to levels. The major problem with leveling systems, you have entire areas that are ONLY visited when you are in that level range. Not so with skill based systems at all. Leveling systems end up with players concentrated in few zones at end game, not so with skill based systems. Seems a much better use of all that graphic design.
well since you asked from peope who played FE, I did play it during the closed beta, and unless they make a really new intro mission, you did follow from the start a series of missions who would teach you about the 6 factions and about weapons, and mutations.
I would also put FE in a mix way of things, you can do whatever there but, missions tend to follow a certain path, some missions only open after you are done with others, also it will depend on the place and your standing with that faction. but in the end if you use guns, would just test you work with the craft.
'The most common argument I hear is that the two types of games appeal to radically different types of people, but that’s also untrue. What they do is appeal and cater to radically different playstyles. That’s not the same thing.'
Well said!
I agree completely! It's entirely possible to enjoy all kinds of games - the point is having fun.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
A good comparison is Dungeons and Dragons Online and the stand alone sandbox Oblivion. DDO is the ultimate “theme park game”, you can't even stray from the predetermined paths. Oblivion is the ultimate “sandbox”, although I bought the game years ago I still pay it. This time ignoring all the “quests” available in the game. I quit DDO after 2 years, tired of doing the same thing over and over with different characters. I remember playing the first computer game “Colossal Cave”, no graphics, all text, however it was a cross between the two genres. While you could wonder all over the cave, if you didn't find the battery for your light, you died. I hate games with scripts, you have to do this, then do that, it's like being in a movie and not being able to write the script or getting paid. Putting “theme park” elements in a sand box is like finding a Kentucky Fried Rat in you chicken barrel.
I agree with most of it other than the FE part. Other than the skill point system (AP), I don't consider anything about FE to be a sandbox. If you want to get all the APs (everyone does), you are stuck following the quest lines from hub to hub just like other themeparks. Your actions have no impact on the world or other players which to me is a big factor in being a sandbox.
Isabelle, I'm new here and I just wanted to say that I have been reading your posts most of the day. I love your perspectives and ideas about MMORPG gaming. Keep up the great work.
There’s only so many factories you can plop down and load all day long before you start wondering when your beloved game turned into a full-time job.
lol, that's exactly why a friend of mine quit SWG. he was working, crafting, filling orders, keeping track of his finances and then realized he was doing a second job that he wasn't getting paid (for real money).
for him Everquest turned out to be his cup of tea.
For my taste I prefer a bit of both sandbox and themepark. Grinding mobs can be relaxing and fun but sometimes one wants something more to do. Since crafting isn't my thing that's out and hving a house really doesn't do it for me as there is never anything that I can do with the house.
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The most common argument I hear is that the two types of games appeal to radically different types of people, but that’s also untrue. What they do is appeal and cater to radically different playstyles. That’s not the same thing.
I disagree with this observation, on one point. There are people who prefer one form of playstyle over the other.
Themepark players feel lost in sandbox games because of the lack of structure.
Sandbox players feel excessively restricted in a themepark game, oft complaining that the game feels like it plays on rails.
They ARE different types of people. Go to Xsyon players and ask them why they prefer Xsyon over Rift. For that matter, go to Rift players and ask they why they prefer Rift over Xsyon.
Aion and LOTRO are not Sandbox MMOs, Fallen Earth by far is.
roleplaying games and anti-roleplaying games.
in RPGs its good to expect some RP elements,like Ultima.
in anti-RPGs like rift,wow etc.,its not a good thing to expect RP elements..
Generation P
Isabelle, much as I love your articles, FE is not a sandbox.
I love the game, I play the game, and it has always been a hybrid. I'm sorry, but this is one of my bugbears. Telling people FE is a sandbox leads them to expect a level of freedom that just currently isn't in-game.
Sure, there are alternate ways to hit cap other than running missions, but if you go that way you'll be short on AP (even with the random AP system they introduced, and are planning on "speeding up" in the next patch). Unless of course you want to do road rallies at 50 til your eyes bleed....(repeatable for AP rewards), or run back to sector 1 and wtfpwn everything in your path while catching up on bonus AP missions.
FE is classless, not tab-targetted, and endgame (to date) consists of making your own fun. It's sandboxy...but the reliance on PvE missions to make a halfway decent PvP or PvE build takes most of the sandbox freedom away.
Good article.
I'm one for sandbox. as a SWG-refugee i have played a lot of titles since then and no one has trapped my atention but for some weeks. I see them so linear and predictable it's imposible for me to walk the golden path of progression through levels, which i find quite boring, and furthermore the quest you are doing are done by a lot of people, the part of RPG is dead on this side.
Sandbox are an alternate life, themepark are.... themeparks.
It is a question of fangs.
I think what we have here is a failure to communicate
I think there are really 3 labels and i have mentioned this before.
Sandbox has has no npcs to run quest sell off goods to.
Themepark you are forced to run quest.
and a Sandpark where you have very limited npcs to sell to and or run quest but the player creates alot of the content themselves.
I feel MO, DarkFall and UO are sandparks while Xyson is a actual sandbox or minecraft is a sandbox.
Xyson has no cities in game created by the dev team there are no npcs to chat to in game. The only npcs we have are things to kill that are needed for crafting. Wurm online and Minecraft would also fit the bill for a true sandbox.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
With one caveat: as long as you having fun, doesn't ruin someone else's fun.
The ultra-polarized hardcore gamer of MMORPG.com isn't a good sample base for any study.
Most people are capable of enjoying multiple playstyles.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre