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Why all Bioware RPGs since KOTOR all made of tunnel levels? (And now all even in ONE city!)
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
I really don't get it. When I read in the PC Gamer review the majority of DA2 was playing in Kirkwall, I could not help to make a huge sigh.
I know, story telling and wide open world as in Bethesda games are difficult. Maybe impossible. But this?
You know, all Bioware RPGs ever since the KOTOR success have more or less been tunnel worlds. It does not matter so much in the ME series, since in space and some colonies it is sort of believable. But in a fantasy world, it is just strange, why a person should always be confined.
My first impression of the DA2 demo was likewise bad. The endless totally tight tunnel of escape. No strolling left or right, NOTHING to explore or find, only the bare minimum of what was needed: the direct line from A to Z, entrance to escape. I am sorry, but that felt rather like some console jump and run tunnel level than a world. And the brief episode in Kirkwall in the 2nd half of the demo left an even worse impression.
A city full of closed doors, where NOTHING happened beside the combat. All exists where closed by gates. Maybe it was for demo purposes, maybe because it was some night time event. But it still sat ill with me as another realization how your fixation on "STORY STORY STORY" has blinded you to ANY other part of your games. It is, I must say it here, the same impression I have from following SWTOR. You really make great stories, you emphasizse on it, but everything else is totally neglected.
While I love a good story like any other RPG bloke, I also love to explore. I love to venture through large forests, through open regions. Just to discover stuff, even some pointless gimmicks. But in this way, we are more and more confined with each new game. Just see how ME1 -> ME2 was more and more dropping RPG features and it had become more shooter with story. And now the same happens to DA. You drop the origin and we have a preset human. You make the formerly small places even more narrow to the point that this escape route wasn't broader than if I had streched out my arms! You didn't even make a real overland world in DA:O, but instead just some travelling via some sterile map, and nothing to explore between the places of story. And NOW you even entirely drop the worldmap and confine us into ONE CITY? You put us all into the Procrustes bed of a preset story confined by a given outcome in the future, only narrated. We even jump over whole years. How are we to feel free to explore our own course that way?
Not to speak of the fact how 90% of the demo stuff was either in variation of brown or grey. If I had to describe the escape route of the heroes lush or interesting would NOT be the words of choice here.
Why no just cut environment altogether and just let us run through one long enough tunnel like in Dungeon Siege 1?
The entire "Hawk is a human only" reminded me all too bad of Mr.Erickson ruling out aliens of SWTOR with the cold comment: "people can't identify with freaks". Later the SWTOR devs explained, playing non-humans did not fir to the stories they had in mind. Sounds familiar? Well, it sounds like the carbon copy for the DA2 ideology. Take a preset human, because it interrupts your "vision" of storytelling.
Bioware, I have told you a year ago with ME2, you are losing your way. You focus ALL on story, you sacrifice EVERY OTHER virtue on this altar of your oh so holy story, and I don't like what you are doing. All other virtues of a RPG are being sacrificed with each new game. Diversity in choices of skills, diversity in paths to tread, openness of world and exploration, all the being sucked out by some "idea fixe" of storytelling.
I just don't like the way you are heading here, Sirs, not at all!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
Maybe they should just start wrighting books.
DA2 is a game that tells a very specific story. Its not a sandbox / explore the world rpg. Its a story that expans years of a characters life.
Theres not many good rpgs that tell a great story that also allow you to effect your character and the story along the way.
Once you've seen the cast of one Bioware game, you've seen them all. They've become very much a one trick pony. Now that I'm older I find it much harder to be impressed by formulaic Greek traditions.
Watching movies must be boring as hell for you then.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
THIS
Baldur´s Gate and NWM was their appice, for me, after that, just more of the same.
...m´bad, now they have a 2 hour soup opera every quest =/
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
True. Fair enough.
I personally still really enjoy Bioware games. ME has managed to become a solid favorite of mine. Though that may be in part due to Planetside and my love of sci-fi.
Which is also to the point that It's generally in spite of some of the characters in the game, if not most of them. There are a select set of personalities I can tolerate and keep going without getting frustrated with, and having to deal with some of those same annoying ones across different games is a tad grating.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
People need to realize that bioware games are not sandboxes... they are very detailed themeparks, Either you want to ride their rollercoaster or you dont.
There is no fineprint here, you know what you are getting, you cant compare it to morrowwind or fallout or whatever other sandbox you hold dear, because they arent that.
If the hero is human that is because the hero has a damn name, and the only interchangeable fact about said hero is the gender, thats it, everything else has already been predetermined and like a movie you are just along for the ride.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I hate to say it, been a fan for so long but you're right. Played since Baldur's Gate and the last few games have lost their luster for me. I start playing and its 'Oh... this again."
Also I prefer to have as much of the story told during gameplay as possible. I thought the cutscenes in DA:O were a too much and intrusive.
I'm sure they took your memo and threw it in the same place they do all their hate mail...right under their multiple game of the years awards
I can't answer for the OP but for me, I don't look for the same thing from movies and video games. One is passive one is interactive.
/end-thread
Foxx said all that needed to be said.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Ah sweet, I just saw your thread on the Bioware forums.
There are a few things that could be said. The first though, is how you treat your opinion as right for Bioware and not what makes them more money :P. If this wasn't working for Bioware, I doubt they'd do it. But I'm going to go with the company making millions and millions of dollars over someone who didn't get enough replies on his thread there, so he posted it on an MMO site :P
.
Anyways. I didn't expect to be able to explore an entire city during the demo. Nor did I expect to explore the entire city during the night (which are supposed to be like missions). You mention how small the mission area is in the demo. You mention that the first ten minutes of the game isn't big enough for you to move your arms in. True enough. I would find it weird to be dropped off in a huge expansive area at the start of the game with no idea where to go and for a company to hope I know where to go.
You talk of how we are "regulated" to humans. I guess you missed the video of the reason why. They said 14% of people who finished DAOs were elves. A much smaller number were dwarfs. Let's say 6%. So 80% of players were a human in that game. Just saying. Is option nice? Sure! I played two elfs, a dwarf, and two humans. I would have liked to see at least elfs. But that would mean our entire family would have been elfs unless we were adopted (very doubtful in that lore). That would mean a big change in the story and setting.
Granted, I disagree with mosts of your posts because anything I've seen anyone say that is not agreeing with you, is you ignore or pretty much call stupid. You do sometimes bring up some good points. I do hope DA2 has at least the exploration of DAO. The demo really didn't show enough to prove it does or does not, but you have already decided it won't without all the information there is. Which, I think, is another silly thing. People who have very uninformed opinions.
If you hate games such as this one so much, don't play it. There are plenty of games out and Skyrim is on the way for you so you can have a game with a bad story but tons of exploration!
I guess tastes differ, also gaming preferences.
The interesting part is that a lot of changes and refinement improvements in ME2 and DA2 was based upon making adjustments listening to prevalent complaints from players from ME and DA:O. Which leads to believe that huge groups of players just don't have the same taste of the OP, or for whom the objections that the OP has with Bioware's style isn't objections that they have.
Which is apparent seeing how hugely popular and successful Bioware games still are, and how Bioware is still regarded as one of the top RPG companies around.
As for the same characters being in all the BW games as someone else said, sorry, but that's bull. I have a hard time picturing the ME2 characters being the same as characters seen in DA:O, Jade Empire, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate etc, not even similar to ME. In fact, each of BW games had memorable, unique characters, from Baldur's Gate's Minsc to ME2's cast.
I didn't have the feeling of playing in a restricted tunnel when I played ME and ME2, far from. They cut out the moonbuggy part for the very simple reason that, in contrast again to the OP's preferences, a lot of players complained about it. If the majority of players had found it amazing and one of the most impressive parts in the game and posted this, then it would have stayed and expanded upon in ME2. It's simple as that.
As for DA2, I haven't played it so I don't know how limited or open it'll feel. But I do know that apparently this game is delivered within 1-1.5 year. Which is extremely fast for a sequel.
Compare that to other RPG games of which many have a development trajectory of 3-5 years. I mean, I doubt that the expected large open world of Skyrim, that has been in development as long as an MMORPG, can be delivered within the 1-1.5 year that it took for DA2.
I don't know if that is the reason, but I can imagine that the difference in development time also causes a difference in game design and available content.
Well, in both you're 'consuming' content provided by the makers of the movie or the game. I guess it's a matter of perspective that's subjective.
? I didn't see anything like this topic on the BW forums. Link?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Totally agree with OP
Weird thing about those 14%. I know, few ppl if u consider the humans,but...the masterpieces (BG,Kotor) had some "half useless" or unpopular builds, and hey, that was a GREAT spice. Hope Bethesda can improve their story, or some other developer can do the mythic sandbox with amazing drama rpg.
I totally agree with the OP's point of view on Bioware, and have said it myself in fewer and less delicate words many times over the past few years.
They've gone from respected RPG makers to turning into just another 'I only wants your monies! DUR' company over the years, slowly but surely, and they are nearing the point of just being plain obvious now.
If you've been playing Bioware rpg's since their beginnings, then it is hard not to see the 1 step forward / 2 steps back type of developing they've been doing, each new game expects less and less from the player, it's getting to the point of being insulting too.
That's not to say I havn't enjoyed any of their newer games, because that would be a lie, but certainly not as much as I once did with anything they put out there, and sadly it just keeps progressing. I just can't hold false praise for what have been becoming less and less satisfying rpg's when compared to what they once were doing.
All I can really think at this point is - what the hell happened? and - Is it all because of EA?
Sadly, I and many others seem to be a dying breed and not even a second thought in the eyes of the marketing vs developing department (or whatever you want to call it), since this same sort of streamlining/accessibilty design for the masses and not a fanbase seem to be over-taking games acrossed litterally ALL genre's (most recently Marvel vs Capcom 3 comes to mind).
It's really starting to make me feel like that grumpy old man, scared, unwilling, and just plain angered by change (and chasing children off my lawn). But I honestly feel these changes are not for the better of gaming as a whole, but instead of lining pockets with gold from litterally anyone and everyone.
It's getting to the point of companies ignoring the fans of a certain genre altogether and more interested in chasing after a new audience.
Well I say - what happened to the people you were easily making millions off of before hm? Did we all die off, go broke, deaf or blind? No, we are still right here just as eger to spend our money on what we can truly behold as great games!
But it appears we are no longer good enough, or what is actually more likely, they are just incapable of surpassing beyond what they have already done and just CANNOT live up to the standards we've come to expect - so they inturn move on from us and onto another generation and lower that bar of expectations!
It's sort of like giving gifts to a loved one on special occasions.
If you start off big, each and everytime after you are expected to out do yourself, until it gets to the point of no return and it hopeless.
But if you start out small and never go too big, those expectations never exceed what isn't possible and no one feels let down.
/end wall of text rant..
Now good night! and get off my lawn!! >:(
if you found someones post on another site as well it only means one thing, you spend to much time in forums.
Yes perspective is subjecive, but movies are passive and video games are interactive and that is objective.
I know EXACTLY what you're saying OP. And I know this is a bit off-topic but after hearing more about the new Elder Scrolls game; Skyrim, and how you play a specific character this... "Dragonborn", is a step in taking away the freedom of immersion and actual Roleplaying I loved those games for.
I play Bioware games usually for the story and to play the role of a character in an event, Yeah I do like the small amount of freedom given to change your looks and some effects of the gameplay but with DA2 I too feel like they're taking away every last shread other than the basics of what makes it different than just a hack n' slash action game.
But whether you're bored with movies for the same reasons that you can be bored with games, that is subjective.
Like me, I'm looking for originality and cherish it when I encounter it in books and movies but still can enjoy movies and books that aren't wildly imaginative or original as long as they're good and thus enjoyable. The same applies for me with games. Hence subjective.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
THE MASSES(I wont characterise because offensive opinion=trolling) WANT THEIR HANDS TO BE HELD ALL THE WAY TILL END
plus when something has fans and sells its becoming dull because they simply got no idea what to do so they reproduce the same pattern over and over, go there, get ally 1, repeat,suprise before final battle, final battle
My response to OP is a fairly simple one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9eGtyqz4gY
Your getting to much upset by this, keep making or tellingothers how DA2 sucks, my friend hehe.
I agree as you do but ive made my discision i won't buy DA2.
Bioware with bethesda was one of my favorite but when DAO came i already had my reservations, still after playing for a while it was ok game i give it a 6.5/10 rating for bad map design and repeating dull small areas with few mobs in them that make no sense.
At one point you have to let go, if the game maker more and more stray away from the path and DA2 for me is the game that finally make me deside to leave bioware for what they are.
They just can't make games any more they have $$$ virus and EA breathing down there neck.
Still plenty of other games to play and ill wait for theWitcher 2 hope thats much better and later this year Elder scroll 5 Skyrim.
Bioware lost simple as that.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
A well tightly told story needs to confine the 'freedom' a person has. I don't recall what the over-arching story was for Elder scroll series to be honest and I really can't think of a memorable character like 'Shepard' either.
Bioware has always said they are a company that makes story driven games. That's their niche and so far their critics/sales indicate people can't get enough of it. So why suddenly change?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Ya know, DA2 would not need to have a totally open world like Oblivion. But this super confined tunnels like the starter area, or the fact that 90% of the gameplay will happen in the city of Kirkwall only... those are just extremes I don't like. I will buy DA2 for the interesting story. But that doesn't mean I have to like a game in all parts.
Part of being an adult is, you can see the bad AND good in something. I just say many parts of Bioware are getting more streamlined and simplified towards and presumed mass audience. And yes I do blame EA for having a say in this. I don't necessarily need to go back to pre-1990 RPG gaming, this is getting ridiculously simplified and streamlined.
*Now get off my lawn you whippersnappers* XD
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert