I actually think the death penalty is done rather well. It's not too harsh, and its not too easy. The more you die, in a short period of time the more harsh the penalty is.. Not a bad idea at all..
when it comes to pve games i prefer some kind of meaningfull death penalty to help prevent idiotic zerg fests and promote tactical group play. i simply do not get attached to the world or it's lore if there is no danger in dying so i naturally avoid the kiddie games.
anyway, maybe they had a "hardcore" server or special death penalty within dungeons or raids to achieve a sense of danger.
I know this guy already got some Kudos, but I was off my chair:
"I have a great game for you if you like risk vs reward.
Its real life. Join the military, go shoot up random RL noobs. Its awesome. Like if you get hit, you`re punished by extreme pain, lacerations or even permanent death. I suggest you give it a shot.
If you think your life is too precious, you can always try investment. All you risk is your money. If you invest at the wrong place, you lose some, if you dont, you make some."
i prefer a challenging mmo with a real death penalty, like xp loss, or something equivalent time-wise. can someone explain the risk vs. reward system in this game? i did play WoW and the death penalty just wasn't severe enough as gold was too easy to come by to repair the gear.
you want challenge? go play shaiya online, unlock ultimate mode and get some epic gear the go pvp and die, if any priest doesnt resurrect you in a couple of minutes, you get perma death and lose all your stuff with your character....
or maybe try darkfall? i dont like darkfall but i heard u get ganked and u drop all ur stuff lol.... go get some challenge there i dont mind this kind of stuff on f2p games, but lose all my epic stuff on a P2P game that im paying for all that time just to lose everything? those penalties are retarded imo
Hardly retarded. It's the way a certain game is build that makes it fun, at least at first. Eventually it degenerates into either people carrying junk around all the time or move in such huge packs that makes the losing odds practically null.
There gets a point for those of use who broke our teeth on harsh death penalties, where we look at the newer post wow players and want to hurt them. For me it was in wow and LoTRo when people started using death as a quick port out of instance. I miss my death penalties, it made for better gamers. When you wiped in a raid zone, almost to the end and you had to get people to invis up and drag everyones corpse back to zone in. It taught you not to do that again, death penalties taught people how to pull mobs as well as awarness of the mobs in the area.
Now people die and they just go LOLZ that was funny, sorry guys. It's so damned unprofessional.
ITT: OP states his preference for types of mmo in terms of risk/reward and asks for some details on Rift to see if he will enjoy it. Butthurt carebears start telling him to join the army.
The funny thing is it's ffa pvpers and the like who are the ones often branded with being 'elitist' and trying to force their game style on everyone. When here we have a classic example of the 'casuals' essentially doing the same thing by taking the piss out of a guy for asking a reasonable question simply because he likes a different risk/reward ratio to them.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Hardly retarded. It's the way a certain game is build that makes it fun, at least at first. Eventually it degenerates into either people carrying junk around all the time or move in such huge packs that makes the losing odds practically null.
well if im paying for a game and i have spent lots of money on monthly fees already and got lvl cap and epic gears and i get ganked and get either perma death or all my epics looted.... i quit the game and burn the retail box... thats why i always keep my distance from those kind of games (im not a pvp driven player, i pvp only if needed)
Hardly retarded. It's the way a certain game is build that makes it fun, at least at first. Eventually it degenerates into either people carrying junk around all the time or move in such huge packs that makes the losing odds practically null.
well if im paying for a game and i have spent lots of money on monthly fees already and got lvl cap and epic gears and i get ganked and get either perma death or all my epics looted.... i quit the game and burn the retail box... thats why i always keep my distance from those kind of games (im not a pvp driven player, i pvp only if needed)
That's the thing. These games are not made with epic gear in mind. The best gear are craftable and in large quantities, so even though they are expensive, they are also replaceable. You're talking about two different games with different phylosophies behind them. I agree that you can't have a FFA system in a game where gear are not relatively easily replaceable. Also in FFA games you learn to take no risks, which eventually becoms dull, but that's another story.
Hardly retarded. It's the way a certain game is build that makes it fun, at least at first. Eventually it degenerates into either people carrying junk around all the time or move in such huge packs that makes the losing odds practically null.
well if im paying for a game and i have spent lots of money on monthly fees already and got lvl cap and epic gears and i get ganked and get either perma death or all my epics looted.... i quit the game and burn the retail box... thats why i always keep my distance from those kind of games (im not a pvp driven player, i pvp only if needed)
That's the thing. These games are not made with epic gear in mind. The best gear are craftable and in large quantities, so even though they are expensive, they are also replaceable. You're talking about two different games with different phylosophies behind them. I agree that you can't have a FFA system in a game where gear are not relatively easily replaceable. Also in FFA games you learn to take no risks, which eventually becoms dull, but that's another story.
This has nothing to do with FFA system but rather high death penalty system. You can have FFA PvP without a high death penalty, such as in Asherons Call which hands down had the best FFA PvP system ever.
Originally posted by Ragnaven There gets a point for those of use who broke our teeth on harsh death penalties, where we look at the newer post wow players and want to hurt them. For me it was in wow and LoTRo when people started using death as a quick port out of instance. I miss my death penalties, it made for better gamers. When you wiped in a raid zone, almost to the end and you had to get people to invis up and drag everyones corpse back to zone in. It taught you not to do that again, death penalties taught people how to pull mobs as well as awarness of the mobs in the area. Now people die and they just go LOLZ that was funny, sorry guys. It's so damned unprofessional.
Your point of view, while perfectly valid, seems very bizarre to me. We are not getting paid to play these games. This is not even like rec league basketball. We're playing games for entertainment.
If this were some kind of sports league or e-sports league I could understand the comment about 'unprofessional', but otherwise this makes no sense to me.
In any event, (this is not directed at Ragnavan) I still wonder at people who look at a game like WoW or Rift and then think that some kind of harsh death penalty, with no consideration for all the other mechanics in the game will somehow make the game better.
If you don't like the death penalty in any given game, don't play the game. Find a different game to play. Quit whining about lack of death penalties on random internet forums. Get over it already. The industry has moved on and so should you.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This has nothing to do with FFA system but rather high death penalty system. You can have FFA PvP without a high death penalty, such as in Asherons Call which hands down had the best FFA PvP system ever.
My mistake. I did the same mistake a lot of people are doing unfortunately and associated FFA gameplay with full loot.
Btw, I never played AC, but I did play Lineage 2 and I liked their system a lot as well.
There gets a point for those of use who broke our teeth on harsh death penalties, where we look at the newer post wow players and want to hurt them. For me it was in wow and LoTRo when people started using death as a quick port out of instance. I miss my death penalties, it made for better gamers. When you wiped in a raid zone, almost to the end and you had to get people to invis up and drag everyones corpse back to zone in. It taught you not to do that again, death penalties taught people how to pull mobs as well as awarness of the mobs in the area.
Now people die and they just go LOLZ that was funny, sorry guys. It's so damned unprofessional.
Not gonna happen. It might cause a casual player to stop playing basically any feature that could add depth/risk vs reward, has to get measured up against "will casual players enjoy this?" which is why we've had NO innovation in 6 years of AAA games outside of public quests, and Vanguard's systems.
Risk/reward have very little to do with innovation.
And while I agree that there should be some people are all stuck in one of the 2 extremes. Eiter is there no death penalty at all or people want perma death or full looting or corpse runs.
I like Lineage where sometimes you randomly could drop an item and if none from your party picked it up a random monster did and added it to it's loot list. That made people somewhat scared of death but not enough to avoid all kinds of danger, since it wasn't that common it was still worth doing dungeons.
As for the whole "lets blame the casuals" thing, if you make a great game it will get all kinds of players. Diablo were actually pretty hard and still it had loads of differenrt kinds of players including a lot of casual ones. I'm not blaming the casuals, I'm blaming the developers who are more interested in tearing off a piece of WoW than making an interesting game.
Worry about making a good game instead of what you think will sell and you'll do fine. That's where almost all AAA MMOs have failed. Vanguard was the only one that tried to be different, but it got forced out early. If you instead just copy the current leader you will in 9 cases of 10 fail miserably.
No actually, vanguard didnt get forced out. it was a horrible product. I bought the game the day it came out, i had been following it for awhile, was very excited to try it. Instead I tried to play it for 3 weeks. And it was the biggest pile of crap I have ever played. It was still in an Alpha State. It had graphical buggs out of the ying yang, everything was buggy. Quests,graphics, mobs, players etc. nothign worked worth a crap.
Really? Cause I played on launch and the only bugs I ran into were quest related and a graphical hiccup here and there, yet I had the most fun in an MMO than I'd had in years. And yes the game was forced out 8 months earlier than expected. I was in the beta.
I have a great game for you if you like risk vs reward.
Its real life. Join the military, go shoot up random RL noobs. Its awesome. Like if you get hit, you`re punished by extreme pain, lacerations or even permanent death. I suggest you give it a shot.
If you think your life is too precious, you can always try investment. All you risk is your money. If you invest at the wrong place, you lose some, if you dont, you make some.
Good lord, its really a shame there are people like this on these boards. You just don't understand, do you?
Games with more risk gives the player a heightened state of gaming, because it pulls them in more, the highs are high, the lows are low, some people like that better than WoW, which is just ... a steady low.
Also, no, no AAA MMOs have had death penalties since 2004, except Vanguard. Another reason why I probably would have to try REALLY hard to even remember a play session in said MMOs. I have no connection to my character and honestly couldn't care less if he died, cause nothing happens. There's no sense of urgency or danger in the game, I'm not drawn into it.
I actually find full loot PvP boring, when you get to a certain point, you dont really care much for the equipment, if so, you got it stored.
Which leads me to the thought that the next hardcore pvp modus will include "con loss", aka you have a certain amount of constitution, and each time you die there is a chance you will loose one point when ressurected, eventually leading to permadeath.
I don't know why you brought FFA full loot PvP into this. This seems to be the only argument people every use. They go and point at EverQuest or Ultima Online as examples of what all death penalties were like, and scream about how awful they were.
Guys, Before WoW came out there were SEVEN years of MMOs, dozens of titles with different forms of death penalties. Why is it you keep assuming that the only MMO that ever existed before WoW was EverQuest. "Corpse runs sucked!" as an excuse against death penalty "camping mobs sucked!" as an excuse for instances. There were other games that didn't have these problems. Good lord.
Simple. Those who go on (and on...) about "risk vs reward" obviously aren't getting what they want in most of todays MMO's. So, one obvious possibility is to direct them to games that have much more "risk vs reward". That being some of the FFA full loot gank fests.
I'm well aware of what UO was like. I was in pre trammel... I also remember why it changed... Not only that, but I was also in Asherons Call(1) for a couple of years. NO, I don't want to go back to corpse runs and lost gear. I, and much of the player population have moved on in our tastes. That being the case, its little surprise that games that target the mass audience, have also tended to drop corpse runs and exp loss. There is also the fact that UO and some of the others could do that, because at the time, there wasn't all that much choice. These days, games with harsh death penalities niche themselves.
As I've stated, I wish everyone who is on the eternal quest for the One True Game(tm) the very best of luck. No doubt it will *always* be just beyond the horizon. Today thats GW2 or some other such. But once such people have some experience with GW2, no doubt they will set their sights on the next game, thats just over the horizon. I'm done with that rat race.
So I'm going to take a wild guess and say you didn't understand what I wrote AT ALL? Because you pretty much ignored the entire point I made and started talking about exactly the sort of stuff I ranted against... Please, go back and reread. Not all old MMOs had corpse runs and full loot. (nor are full loot ganks mindless gank fests)
Not gonna happen. It might cause a casual player to stop playing basically any feature that could add depth/risk vs reward, has to get measured up against "will casual players enjoy this?" which is why we've had NO innovation in 6 years of AAA games outside of public quests, and Vanguard's systems.
Risk/reward have very little to do with innovation.
And while I agree that there should be some people are all stuck in one of the 2 extremes. Eiter is there no death penalty at all or people want perma death or full looting or corpse runs.
I like Lineage where sometimes you randomly could drop an item and if none from your party picked it up a random monster did and added it to it's loot list. That made people somewhat scared of death but not enough to avoid all kinds of danger, since it wasn't that common it was still worth doing dungeons.
As for the whole "lets blame the casuals" thing, if you make a great game it will get all kinds of players. Diablo were actually pretty hard and still it had loads of differenrt kinds of players including a lot of casual ones. I'm not blaming the casuals, I'm blaming the developers who are more interested in tearing off a piece of WoW than making an interesting game.
Worry about making a good game instead of what you think will sell and you'll do fine. That's where almost all AAA MMOs have failed. Vanguard was the only one that tried to be different, but it got forced out early. If you instead just copy the current leader you will in 9 cases of 10 fail miserably.
No actually, vanguard didnt get forced out. it was a horrible product. I bought the game the day it came out, i had been following it for awhile, was very excited to try it. Instead I tried to play it for 3 weeks. And it was the biggest pile of crap I have ever played. It was still in an Alpha State. It had graphical buggs out of the ying yang, everything was buggy. Quests,graphics, mobs, players etc. nothign worked worth a crap.
Really? Cause I played on launch and the only bugs I ran into were quest related and a graphical hiccup here and there, yet I had the most fun in an MMO than I'd had in years. And yes the game was forced out 8 months earlier than expected. I was in the beta.
Then you are one of the fortunate few. Near constant client crashes, server crashes, desynch and memory leaks from hell here. I finally gave up on the game. Its too bad as it could have been a good, enjoyable game. But it was rushed out the door way too soon.
when it comes to pve games i prefer some kind of meaningfull death penalty to help prevent idiotic zerg fests and promote tactical group play. i simply do not get attached to the world or it's lore if there is no danger in dying so i naturally avoid the kiddie games.
anyway, maybe they had a "hardcore" server or special death penalty within dungeons or raids to achieve a sense of danger.
The irony in your statement is that hardcore death penalties and high risk tend to favor kiddies or grown adults living in their parents basement.
Not gonna happen. It might cause a casual player to stop playing basically any feature that could add depth/risk vs reward, has to get measured up against "will casual players enjoy this?" which is why we've had NO innovation in 6 years of AAA games outside of public quests, and Vanguard's systems.
Risk/reward have very little to do with innovation.
And while I agree that there should be some people are all stuck in one of the 2 extremes. Eiter is there no death penalty at all or people want perma death or full looting or corpse runs.
I like Lineage where sometimes you randomly could drop an item and if none from your party picked it up a random monster did and added it to it's loot list. That made people somewhat scared of death but not enough to avoid all kinds of danger, since it wasn't that common it was still worth doing dungeons.
As for the whole "lets blame the casuals" thing, if you make a great game it will get all kinds of players. Diablo were actually pretty hard and still it had loads of differenrt kinds of players including a lot of casual ones. I'm not blaming the casuals, I'm blaming the developers who are more interested in tearing off a piece of WoW than making an interesting game.
Worry about making a good game instead of what you think will sell and you'll do fine. That's where almost all AAA MMOs have failed. Vanguard was the only one that tried to be different, but it got forced out early. If you instead just copy the current leader you will in 9 cases of 10 fail miserably.
No actually, vanguard didnt get forced out. it was a horrible product. I bought the game the day it came out, i had been following it for awhile, was very excited to try it. Instead I tried to play it for 3 weeks. And it was the biggest pile of crap I have ever played. It was still in an Alpha State. It had graphical buggs out of the ying yang, everything was buggy. Quests,graphics, mobs, players etc. nothign worked worth a crap.
Really? Cause I played on launch and the only bugs I ran into were quest related and a graphical hiccup here and there, yet I had the most fun in an MMO than I'd had in years. And yes the game was forced out 8 months earlier than expected. I was in the beta.
Then you are one of the fortunate few. Near constant client crashes, server crashes, desynch and memory leaks from hell here. I finally gave up on the game. Its too bad as it could have been a good, enjoyable game. But it was rushed out the door way too soon.
I think the people crashing are the few sorry man. Everyone I know that's playing has had no issues.
Edit sorry thought you were saying rift had a buggy client.
Not gonna happen. It might cause a casual player to stop playing basically any feature that could add depth/risk vs reward, has to get measured up against "will casual players enjoy this?" which is why we've had NO innovation in 6 years of AAA games outside of public quests, and Vanguard's systems.
Risk/reward have very little to do with innovation.
And while I agree that there should be some people are all stuck in one of the 2 extremes. Eiter is there no death penalty at all or people want perma death or full looting or corpse runs.
I like Lineage where sometimes you randomly could drop an item and if none from your party picked it up a random monster did and added it to it's loot list. That made people somewhat scared of death but not enough to avoid all kinds of danger, since it wasn't that common it was still worth doing dungeons.
As for the whole "lets blame the casuals" thing, if you make a great game it will get all kinds of players. Diablo were actually pretty hard and still it had loads of differenrt kinds of players including a lot of casual ones. I'm not blaming the casuals, I'm blaming the developers who are more interested in tearing off a piece of WoW than making an interesting game.
Worry about making a good game instead of what you think will sell and you'll do fine. That's where almost all AAA MMOs have failed. Vanguard was the only one that tried to be different, but it got forced out early. If you instead just copy the current leader you will in 9 cases of 10 fail miserably.
No actually, vanguard didnt get forced out. it was a horrible product. I bought the game the day it came out, i had been following it for awhile, was very excited to try it. Instead I tried to play it for 3 weeks. And it was the biggest pile of crap I have ever played. It was still in an Alpha State. It had graphical buggs out of the ying yang, everything was buggy. Quests,graphics, mobs, players etc. nothign worked worth a crap.
Really? Cause I played on launch and the only bugs I ran into were quest related and a graphical hiccup here and there, yet I had the most fun in an MMO than I'd had in years. And yes the game was forced out 8 months earlier than expected. I was in the beta.
Then you are one of the fortunate few. Near constant client crashes, server crashes, desynch and memory leaks from hell here. I finally gave up on the game. Its too bad as it could have been a good, enjoyable game. But it was rushed out the door way too soon.
I think the people crashing are the few sorry man. Everyone I know that's playing has had no issues.
Edit sorry thought you were saying rift had a buggy client.
Nope. I've not had a single crash in Rift. I was speaking of Vanguard at launch.
Comments
I actually think the death penalty is done rather well. It's not too harsh, and its not too easy. The more you die, in a short period of time the more harsh the penalty is.. Not a bad idea at all..
This game is not for you, take care.
I know this guy already got some Kudos, but I was off my chair:
"I have a great game for you if you like risk vs reward.
Its real life. Join the military, go shoot up random RL noobs. Its awesome. Like if you get hit, you`re punished by extreme pain, lacerations or even permanent death. I suggest you give it a shot.
If you think your life is too precious, you can always try investment. All you risk is your money. If you invest at the wrong place, you lose some, if you dont, you make some."
Well played sir!
you want challenge? go play shaiya online, unlock ultimate mode and get some epic gear the go pvp and die, if any priest doesnt resurrect you in a couple of minutes, you get perma death and lose all your stuff with your character....
or maybe try darkfall? i dont like darkfall but i heard u get ganked and u drop all ur stuff lol.... go get some challenge there
i dont mind this kind of stuff on f2p games, but lose all my epic stuff on a P2P game that im paying for all that time just to lose everything? those penalties are retarded imo
Hardly retarded. It's the way a certain game is build that makes it fun, at least at first. Eventually it degenerates into either people carrying junk around all the time or move in such huge packs that makes the losing odds practically null.
There gets a point for those of use who broke our teeth on harsh death penalties, where we look at the newer post wow players and want to hurt them. For me it was in wow and LoTRo when people started using death as a quick port out of instance. I miss my death penalties, it made for better gamers. When you wiped in a raid zone, almost to the end and you had to get people to invis up and drag everyones corpse back to zone in. It taught you not to do that again, death penalties taught people how to pull mobs as well as awarness of the mobs in the area.
Now people die and they just go LOLZ that was funny, sorry guys. It's so damned unprofessional.
ITT: OP states his preference for types of mmo in terms of risk/reward and asks for some details on Rift to see if he will enjoy it. Butthurt carebears start telling him to join the army.
The funny thing is it's ffa pvpers and the like who are the ones often branded with being 'elitist' and trying to force their game style on everyone. When here we have a classic example of the 'casuals' essentially doing the same thing by taking the piss out of a guy for asking a reasonable question simply because he likes a different risk/reward ratio to them.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
punish YOURSELF if you die. Make your own penalty. or do you not have the willpower or conviction.
well if im paying for a game and i have spent lots of money on monthly fees already and got lvl cap and epic gears and i get ganked and get either perma death or all my epics looted.... i quit the game and burn the retail box... thats why i always keep my distance from those kind of games (im not a pvp driven player, i pvp only if needed)
That's the thing. These games are not made with epic gear in mind. The best gear are craftable and in large quantities, so even though they are expensive, they are also replaceable. You're talking about two different games with different phylosophies behind them. I agree that you can't have a FFA system in a game where gear are not relatively easily replaceable. Also in FFA games you learn to take no risks, which eventually becoms dull, but that's another story.
This has nothing to do with FFA system but rather high death penalty system. You can have FFA PvP without a high death penalty, such as in Asherons Call which hands down had the best FFA PvP system ever.
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Your point of view, while perfectly valid, seems very bizarre to me. We are not getting paid to play these games. This is not even like rec league basketball. We're playing games for entertainment.
If this were some kind of sports league or e-sports league I could understand the comment about 'unprofessional', but otherwise this makes no sense to me.
In any event, (this is not directed at Ragnavan) I still wonder at people who look at a game like WoW or Rift and then think that some kind of harsh death penalty, with no consideration for all the other mechanics in the game will somehow make the game better.
If you don't like the death penalty in any given game, don't play the game. Find a different game to play. Quit whining about lack of death penalties on random internet forums. Get over it already. The industry has moved on and so should you.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
My mistake. I did the same mistake a lot of people are doing unfortunately and associated FFA gameplay with full loot.
Btw, I never played AC, but I did play Lineage 2 and I liked their system a lot as well.
It made for better gamers? How? XD
Gold. ALOT of fucking gold. And frustration. The worst death penality ever.
Really? Cause I played on launch and the only bugs I ran into were quest related and a graphical hiccup here and there, yet I had the most fun in an MMO than I'd had in years. And yes the game was forced out 8 months earlier than expected. I was in the beta.
So I'm going to take a wild guess and say you didn't understand what I wrote AT ALL? Because you pretty much ignored the entire point I made and started talking about exactly the sort of stuff I ranted against... Please, go back and reread. Not all old MMOs had corpse runs and full loot. (nor are full loot ganks mindless gank fests)
Then you are one of the fortunate few. Near constant client crashes, server crashes, desynch and memory leaks from hell here. I finally gave up on the game. Its too bad as it could have been a good, enjoyable game. But it was rushed out the door way too soon.
The irony in your statement is that hardcore death penalties and high risk tend to favor kiddies or grown adults living in their parents basement.
Figured I'd point that out to you.
I think the people crashing are the few sorry man. Everyone I know that's playing has had no issues.
Edit sorry thought you were saying rift had a buggy client.
Yeah by forced out i thought you meant, the market forced them to closed there servers or something.
But yeah content was rushed and stupid.
And everyone i talked to said that vanguard was horrible client. It just wouldnt run good. But i really wanted ot like it.
Nope. I've not had a single crash in Rift. I was speaking of Vanguard at launch.