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General: Game and Let Game
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
Everyone on the planet has great passions about certain things and likes to spend time convincing others about the brilliance of their convictions. But there comes a time when there's just no convincing others to a hold similar viewpoint, a time to move on. In today's column, MMORPG.com Lead Writer Bill Murphy writes about the 'live and let live' mantra as it applies to gaming (and Walmart!). Check out Bill's thoughts and then offer a few of your own in the comments.
I understand the basic human need to be concerned when others of your species are setting a bad example for the rest of us. Rapists, child molesters, corrupt politicians, and the creators of Gossip Girl… these are people we should pull the pitchforks out on. But when it comes to what your fellow gamers are spending their spare time playing, I’m fairly certain your energy would be better spent just enjoying what you play instead of badgering others about their pastime.
Read more of Bill Murphy's Game and Let Game.
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Comments
Walmart, they have the lowest prices and they also attract the lowest form of human being and that is why I won't shop there.... too often
Awe, I didn't make it in before the Wal-Mart debate ensued.
Go Wal-Mart, and good message Bill!
I like Wal-Mart. I'm sorry for their employees but let's be honest, if you're working at Wal-Mart you KNOW what you're getting into at this point. It's not like it's some boogie man that randomly jumps out at you and catches you by surprise.
That and the fact that if Wal-Mart is 10 bucks cheaper, that's LESS time I need to work to earn the same object. Simple supply and demand at it's best. While I do understand the plight of Joe-Bob's Everything Shack (and I do support them as well) when I make a BIG run for food/large electronics/etc I ALWAYS keep an eye on Wal-Marts prices. Same reason I RARELY shop at Best Buy for electronics anymore because it simply is NOT the cheapest option for the exact same item.
As for opinions, I agree. While I have become so enraged by a game in the past, I became very overly critical of the game and the people with blinders on who defended the game (FFXIV). I wasn't stopping their gaming but I feel like I may have saved someone ELSE the aggrivation I felt in the game.
Lately, in Rift, you have people in game PURPOSELY trolling. I'm trying to get my game on.... close all the Rifts in the region... unlock all my classes and these tools are in there bashing and using language that would be inappropriate for ears of ALL ages. This is why the MMO gods invented Ignore. So long as the Ignore list is infinite, you're good to go.
Oh Bill, you're touching a deep human question about opinion and self.
What I think is there's a chain of behaviours that brings out al the whining and yelling.
Chain:
I don't believe in myself, and count on favorable opinions from outside to build my self image, so I can live. When I have an opinion, I try to enter in a group that share my opinion so I feel that this opinion is real and I feel safe. But to be more safe, I need that people around me share this opinion, so I yell at others and point the finger to my "friends" and try to convince them to follow me, or better my self image. Yes, all this is walking on thin ice. And that's why flames are so common. Self image is very frail because is not built on self, but on popularity: so a lot of energy is put in defending it.
Wouldn't be easier to put all this energy in developing the real self, and share opinions, so to grow toghether? Would be surely more fun...and more interesting. I can share my ideas, and I reserve the right to myself to change it..and sometimes I find something new and interesting, or not. But my real self has grown and learned. Everyone has his/her truth, and nobody is right or wrong. Is simply "IMHO"
Well Bill, I guess you're welcome to your opinion, even when you're wrong.
First, forums such as this are for PVP. We are here to argue and debate for the sake of the argument, no other reason needed beyond that. I've been accused of arguing both sides of a position and it's true, you say black, I say white, and vice versa. (sometimes)
But in your Walmart example it goes much deeper than gaming, your friend feels Walmart does a real injustice to their employees (or someone) and if he lets you patrionize that store unimpeded (regardless of your personal indifference to the issue) he's failing in his "job" which is to influence human opinion.
And don't kid yourself, influencing human opinion is a full time occupation for politicians, marketers, sports fanatics and yes, even MMORPG players. It is actually possible to change someone's opinion (or so we believe) with a carefullly crafted argument.
In your example, your friend may one day convince you that his concern about Walmart is valid, and you just might stop shopping there. Will the loss of one sale really impact Walmart? Well, that's like saying why bother voting, my one vote doesn't count. Yes it does, especially if someone can convince 100,000 other folks like you to change their behavior.
Back to gaming (hey, you're the one that went off topic), its still true. I'll campaign against certain games, hoping that perhaps if they die a sudden death their IP might be freed up for a better MMORPG (Star Trek, LotRO come to mind).
I campaign against certain developers (Cryptic) because I think they're games are crap, and it would warm my dark heart to see them driven out of business. Why, no reason, I'm just evil in this regard.
But in the end, I just enjoying discussing, debating, and arguing about games. And beleive it or not, my opinions and even purchasing decisions are influenced by the discussions that have occurred on these forums.
I never would have purchased EVE if a half a hundred EVE fans hadn't defended their game of choice back in the days of the famous Dev cheating scandal. I just bought Rift because people changed my mind and I went from initially thinking I wouldn't play it to now having a reasonable good time until something better comes along.
So the only really irrational position in my book is your OP, why in the world would I let everyone alone. These forums are my bully pulpit, and people who join me here I assume are willing participants of the process.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Breaking News:
Today a local area man speaking outside a branch of Wal-Mart asks "Why can't we all just get along?". His shock came after his recent discovery that anonymous internet forum posters argue with one and otherwise 'troll'. More to follow on this groundbreaking news story later...
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Well I am fixing to head to walmart myself here in a few. I must restock the diet moutain dew supply yes, must have my cafine to prop my eyes open to read and play. Honestly I worked for wal mart for a while, and gave it up because I started having thoughts of taking the manager outside and running him over with my car to make it look like an accident. I still shop at this store, knowing full well that rich old fart still works there and make a about 120k a year, when the rest of his workers barley make it at 32 hours a week.
now with my walmart rant over. lets get down to gaming. I do game and let game. However if you ask my opinion about a game, or I see something that gets my goat I do speak out.
You know what they say about opinions, they are like rear ends we all have one.
I've always wondered why people spend their time on a forum just so they can tell everyone who plays a certain game that their game is inferior. I've been able to understand parts of that, like if you attack certain aspects of a game and hope other players will rally with you so there is potential change in the future.
What I never understood is why people go into a forum with no constructive criticism, just "you're dumb this game sux idiot". That kind of attitude always makes the writer looks stupid to me and provides nothing to the forum or it's readers. Now if someone came into a forum and says this game sucks because of xyz, and if they did this or that it would be better, it's ok. This opens up dialogue, and if that's the case, I don't think you need to game and let game. The problem is there is such a fine line between trolling/flaming and critiqing.
So if people are able to stay on the side of that line that is critiqing and are able to open a dialogue about aspects of a game it's all the better. This doesn't mean that you have to convince everyone to agree with you though, sometimes you have to agree to disagree.
I do admit that it get's annoying for me when the argumentative dialoge turns into a flame war. That's why I don't go on some game forums because I have nothing to say other then flaming those games and nothing they can do will make me like them. So I would say if you fit that description then game and let game, but if you want to participate in a critiqing debate about a game them go right ahead I welcome the conversation.
Oh btw walmart sux idiot :P
Always amuses me when I say I didn't have fun playing a game (which is always qualified with a YMMV and reasons why it wasn't fun for me) and am deluged with folk screaming "You're doing it wrong!!!" or "You're burned out on MMOs!!".
On the latter, no, I'm not. And on the former, does anyone think being yelled at is going to make someone have more fun?
Doesn't this tie into the hyperbole thread from before Bill?
I mean, these are just games but (as someone pointed out to me in a thread a while back) some people are so invested in "their" game that they can't countenance any criticism of it because they feel there is an implicit criticism of them (and not just their taste) in it. Or the others who cannot stand to see anyone say good things about a game they dislike, for much the same reasons.
I like the fact that MMO players are a varied bunch, with varied tastes, and that games are finding players right left and centre. I love that Rift has taken off so well, despite the fact that I'm not interested in playing it. My taste is my own, and I could care less what anyone thinks of me for it.
As Kyleran says (minus the bombast) thicker skins required all round.
(Edited to add: because I forgot to mention it, Bill, wouldn't hurt to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed the book, not the wikipedia entry : ) and see if you still don't have the energy re: Walmart.)
Bill is only doing it for money and fame!
Online Games - Games
Don't take this personal but I find this not only selfish but also reprehensible. If you have a clear opinion about something is fine to give it but campaigning against games/companies goes to the too much free time region.
On the OP subject, I think most of the time people are most interested in winning a discussion that getting the truth or something actually useful from it.
Also, everybody wants to be on the winning side, therefore many people find difficult to understand why everybody doesn't agree with them or think the way they think.
However, I have found many posters that while defending/attacking eagerly a game, they still keep the respect to the game/devs/company as well as the persons who doesn't like the game.
Anyway, let the people discuss if they are willing to just follow forums without risking trying a game, it is their lost.
Ok, Bill... I'll forgive you for liking DCUO. :P
(not saying I'll stop mocking you from inside my head though!)
This would be a pretty quiet site if all that happened was people stopping by to read the articles.
People have opinions, strong ones even on occasion, and being able to share those opinions is held as one of the fundamental underpinnings of Western society. Though it doesn't happen excessively frequently - there have been occasions where a well-reasoned argument or debating point has gotten me to reexamine my own views. To allow that possibility is enough for me to welcome people who firmly defend their views (without dragging it down to personal attacks, rhetoric and other inappropriate tacks).
The most striking element in Bill's article though was the line "Frankly, I just don’t have enough energy to care about it."
One could argue that this attitude is the primary thing responsible for the declines in our society today. Most of the key events of the past century have been started by a small group of people who did find the energy to care.
The greatest ally the crooks and corrupt of the world have is the people they're oppressing / taking advantage of being distracted by their own lives to the point they never look up and see the world around them.
Sure - MMOs and gaming don't fall into the same league as ending apartheid, but I would never discourage anyone from expressing their passion for a given idea. Having a passion for anything and a willingness to defend it is an asset to society as a whole IMO.
I just wonder at people who cannot separate their subjective opinions from objective facts. "I do not like quest leveling" does not equal "Quest leveling is a fail mechanic". "I find Sandboxes boring" does not equal "Sandboxes are boring".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think in the end, if one goes past the "I don't know, I just feel that way" frame and get to the basics, it'll ultimately have to come down to opinion. What we say "campaiging" is still opinion. Writing this piece is opinion. Opinion is good, and better when expressed in depth and eloquently.
Think about it: Why do you even write? And opinion pieces to boot.
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Maybe this doesn't happen a lot to console players, however MMO's are online and they develope their own communities and if people are leaving one MMO for another some of the community feel threatened because they feel that theirs might be dying. It's all because MMO's aren't just games, they are social experiences (or at least they are supposed to be).
But this doesnt explain why a person has to go into every thread about a game they dislike just to say for the 10th or 20th time and say the same thing. Unless you have something vested personally, i see absolutely no reason to troll a game. i personally think Eve is the worst game on the planet, i said my peace in a thread long forgetten. i dont need to spend what time i have at work or home trying to tell someone why their opinion on why they like the game is wrong or when there is a negative post to join in and bash the game even more. i just leave it alone like it never existed. i cant count the regular names that go into a certain new game's thread and see the negative posts. i can click their names and see its nothing but game hate, which is against the RoC.
This is an excellent post, people who visit this site need to take heed. If you cant stop flaming and trolling a game you dont like, i think its time to put the mouse and keyboard away and go try something new for a change.
edit: I had an opinion, but I've decided it wasn't a useful one.
Haha, a great article; you've echoed on my own thoughts lately. WHAT? That person believes that way? I WILL SHOW HIM JUST HOW WRONG HE IS!
Good points Bill, But much of this conflict is written into our DNA I suspect. Its the nature of Belief and tribalism. Its part of the human condition. The internet has just made such behavior more in your face.
"But who am I kidding? This is the internet. Hostility fueled by anonymity is King."
Quote sums it up pretty much. It's pretty easy to sort through the bs and get a feel for a game if you take a little time. I enjoy some of the banter and wit and ignore the stuff i find uninteresting/immature.
Corporations are destroying America and we would all be better off if we started telling them this with our wallets. Buy locally, support your community, dont take jobs at corporations and dont support them monetarily in any way. The amount of corporate money being thrown at politicians is rediculous. Half of congress is millionaires and they are basically paid what to think and do. I could go on for a few pages so im just gonna stop here...lol.
@Bill Murphy, you should rationalize your indifference to inequality by yourself. One can be happy and healthy while providing the same for a family without losing empathy and support for fellow human beings. It's a copout and you know it. Truth is we have been conditioned to be self serving, scared little sheep and your attitude is the norm. Im no better and I dont often do or say things for the betterment of others. That said I refuse to rationalize myself into thinking things are acceptable as they are and that I couldnt be doing A LOT more to make the world a better place for everyone.
I like how people talk about this like it's same great philosophical question (like some people were amazed by the idea presented by Inception). It's not.
We'll just mind other people's business like we've always done.
You drink diet soda not knowing that while it has 0 calories, it has Aspartme which was branded and sold as "Nutrasweet" in the mid to late 90s. It had "FBI" and US Dept. Of Justice Investigation because at one point one in four women who were drinkers were found to be "addicted" to "Nutrasweet" and it was proven these women went through "withdrawal" Symptoms. These same people created Splenda and other artificial sweeteners which while sugar-coated to appear "Safe" have actually caused more harm than good....They have a side-effect of actually slowing down (And breaking down) metabolism over time.
In short, Regular Coke is actually "healthier" for the human body than Diet coat by many bounds....and this is something any major nutrtionalist knows out there.
As far as Walmart goes...
In the late 60s, Early 70s, It was passed into American Law the elimination of Import Taxes against China. Prior to this, China would ship to Mexico and Canada and then smuggle products into the United States because they wanted to sell under the United States Dollar. A currency where per sale could generate 100 - 500x more than the cost of manufacturing.
When the law passed, a lot of businesses who created domestic products started going out of business. Walmart replaced General Motors as the leading Job Provider in the United States with the difference that General Motors paid out its employees living wages while Walmart hardly pays living wages to its employees.
I despise speaking in Opinions...Rather than "Speaking in Opinion" I tend to "Speak with actual facts" Anything I have written so far you can actually look up and verify and find out that it is true and actually happened.
Opinions are statements which have not been verified as true or false, but many love to pass their opinions as though there were FACTS. This is a problem with the lack of education.
Is the followng an Opinion?
"Nvidia performs better than ATI in the game DOOM 3"
This is actually a "FACT" because Carmack directly went to Nvidia and wrote a Video Card Optimization that was incorporated into Nvidia cards to render shadows twice as fast. This caused maximum performance settings to give Doom 3 higher framerates and better visual qualities with shadows too...
You can take one of two approaches.
You can care going for the cheapest product, and realize for each product one buys oversees, the dollar actually weakens since that is more money going out of the nation, thanks to this a deficit increases and the dollar loses value.
You can choose to buy more expensive products that are domestic. Get them of higher quality and strengthen the dollar to the point if you need those cheap products from China and other nations, you can buy them with a stronger dollar and buy more for less.
Both are your choices.
Where I live, in this house...I can count all things with both of my hand fingers totalling all rooms which were "made in china."
I will go on to state from my personal experience. I have actually spent roughly 40% less money in buying Quality over Quantity due to the fact a lot of my appliances and devices have actually lasted me for over 10 years with good build Quality.
Example: What I do for "Sound" is I run without a discreet sound card. What I do is have a Hardware DAC made in Germany in which I bypass to a System made in England which deals with Consoles and PCs. With the bypass it uses the Internal Processing System of the sound system to deal with the sound and outputs it to speakers. I have had this system for 15 years and the sound still comes out CLEARER than running a PC with every instance of new sound cards and crappy speakers every 2 - 3 years.
This sound system I have used with every major computer system I have built for gaming gaming for the last 10 years and has worked on all my consoles (works on current generation consoles too)
Here is one of my quotes:
"morality is what you win when you lose and immorality is what you lose if you choose to win"
RIFT and other bad copy cat games are not getting slammed because there are some people out there who like them. These companies and possibly people looking to pitch new games are being asked (by a worthwhile public) to just stop reusing old ideas. It's almost to the point of theft, but there's the excuse (Well how else am I supposed to make my warrior charge into an enemy and stun them other than doing it exactly like how WoW did it?) that it's just too common to avoid.
Yet there are a lot of games who avoid doing this. Some get praised, some get canned. Okay most get canned.
Still RIFT should be held accountable for their copying.
Those who are saying avoid this game aren't doing so because there are people out there who don't mind the unflinching rip-off copies; it's because we expect more from developers who claim to be doing something new or innovative.
This article paints a really one sided picture.