I think there is an extra point to why Dc Universe would fail... and other games with superheroes in it... everyone enjoys playing spider man (Single player) or other super hero games... because they play as spider man... and the other heroes are either in that heros world like villains and/or allies... now... games where you are a superhero and everyone around is a superhero sounds way too lame... everyone is a superhero... and everyone has special powers... , i don't know but, that sounds the same as nobody has anything special to make the game unique... now it is true I haven't played the game.. but this is a fair assumption I believe... and in champions online, you have the npcs to make up for it.. i'm guessing dc universe has it aswell.. the poor poor people who need to be protected.. that's the whole point of superheroes... to rescue and/or protect their dear citizens...
Which sandbox elements do you think DCUO does well? Specifically.
From the definitions I've seeing thrown around here, just about every MMO could be considered a sandbox.
In DCUO, you pick a "ride", generally instanced PvE or instanced PvP are the only options. Making that "choice" isn't sandbox.
Sandbox elements in DCUO :
1. Open World PvP.
2. Multiple locales to explore, each area with content diffrent from the next independant of their surrounding neighboorhoods. Players are not locked from exploring or engaging in this content because the "hub" hasn't been unlocked or their level is to low ( within reason ).
3. World points of conflict, either engineered or player driven. Be it a popular landmark , roaming boss , or hot spot for quest based mobs.
There are more, thats for certain but the few above will etertain you enough for your dissection.
Your gameplay must be limited to videos or second hand experience if you think that pve and pvp is limited to instances. You will however notice I do not call DCUO a sandbox , simply hybrid of the two system which incorporates elements of both styles into its scheme.
None of those are sandbox features.
You've described many features of Rift's PvP servers. They're mostly just features of MMORPG and aren't sandbox or themepark. The only thing that could be a "sandbox" feature is the ability to run through any zone...but you can do that with Rift too. You're going to die a lot, but there's nothing stopping you but the choice to do it or not.
I'm curious, what do you define as the most important sandbox elements? I know there are many views on sandbox, but when thinking abut it SWG, the great sandbox game, had 2 sandbox elements, namely the pre-cu skill system and housing, or am I missing something? It had quests and "mob grind" just as many other games, like Rift and AoC. Rift's soul system is a bit more sandboxy than for instance AoC's feats.
This goes off on a tangent but SWG had the following additional elements, which you have not listed, that made it a sandbox:
1. crafting and an economy that encouraged people to work together for equipment. Some specialized in harvesting, others crafting, still others selling. Player-crafted equipment was superior. Some equipment only came from players. Players created enhancements and modified equipment. There was equipment-wear that required repair and replacement.
2. The HAM bar, particularly the mental portion which made interaction with player-entertainers critical as well as camping.
3. Customization. Homes, non-essential equipment, and character customization were all performed by players.
4. Player-run cities that brought all of this together
/Edit
Ultimately, SWG gave players tools and the motivation to work together, which inceitivzed them to keep playing and driving "Adventure", without exclusively relying on go here and then here and then here.
/End Edit
There were also battlegrounds that provided bonuses if you owned them, although they were buggy. PVP in and of itself doesn't make a game a sandbox, but the TEF was truly unique. TEF made pvp extremely dynamic, even if it was ultimately inconsequential, unlike a simple pvp server where you beat down the next guy.
I think there is an extra point to why Dc Universe would fail... and other games with superheroes in it... everyone enjoys playing spider man (Single player) or other super hero games... because they play as spider man... and the other heroes are either in that heros world like villains and/or allies... now... games where you are a superhero and everyone around is a superhero sounds way too lame... everyone is a superhero... and everyone has special powers... , i don't know but, that sounds the same as nobody has anything special to make the game unique... now it is true I haven't played the game.. but this is a fair assumption I believe... and in champions online, you have the npcs to make up for it.. i'm guessing dc universe has it aswell.. the poor poor people who need to be protected.. that's the whole point of superheroes... to rescue and/or protect their dear citizens...
That's not a superhero issue, imo--that's an IP issue. Very true that in DCUO, you can't really be those iconic characters (with a few brief exceptions in pvp); LotRO has the same issue -- you cannot be Frodo or Aragorn; same with Star Wars Galaxies -- you cannot be Luke, Han, or Darth Vader.
That's not a superhero issue, imo--that's an IP issue. Very true that in DCUO, you can't really be those iconic characters (with a few brief exceptions in pvp); LotRO has the same issue -- you cannot be Frodo or Aragorn; same with Star Wars Galaxies -- you cannot be Luke, Han, or Darth Vader.
I actually think it is worse in LOTRO, but that might just be because I always secretly wanted to be the Jokers henchman.
Any IP based on books or movies of course have the same problems. In LOTROs case would it probably been better if they set it in another age than letting the players be extras hanging around the true heroes.
IPs based on P&P RPGs are a lot easier to adapt to a MMO, they are after all made to allow the players to be heroes.
That's not a superhero issue, imo--that's an IP issue. Very true that in DCUO, you can't really be those iconic characters (with a few brief exceptions in pvp); LotRO has the same issue -- you cannot be Frodo or Aragorn; same with Star Wars Galaxies -- you cannot be Luke, Han, or Darth Vader.
I actually think it is worse in LOTRO, but that might just be because I always secretly wanted to be the Jokers henchman.
Any IP based on books or movies of course have the same problems. In LOTROs case would it probably been better if they set it in another age than letting the players be extras hanging around the true heroes.
IPs based on P&P RPGs are a lot easier to adapt to a MMO, they are after all made to allow the players to be heroes.
I think Star Wars and LotRO suffer from this particularly. Moving to a different age as you suggested for LotR and as Bioware is doing with The Old Republic is tricky though -- players can be heroes yes, but you've drastically altered the familiar lore. At least in the superhero genre, borne of comics, enthusaists are familiar with alternate universes, re-invisionings, as well as outright ret-conning of characters and stories and so changing the "Age" isn't necessarily heretical (although you still cannot be the famous, iconic hero/villain).
Signs of the game failing are already in the stats. XFire is already showing a steep drop, down to rank 111 from 65 close to launch. By next month it should be at same level of CoX and how old is that game?
The thing is with casual game is that what it really means is lack of content. So when the even the casuals get bored of the game then it is done for.
Signs of the game failing are already in the stats. XFire is already showing a steep drop, down to rank 111 from 65 close to launch. By next month it should be at same level of CoX and how old is that game?
The thing is with casual game is that what it really means is lack of content. So when the even the casuals get bored of the game then it is done for.
Instances of posts by players noticing the declining population have been slowly increasing, showing at least an anecdotal trend:
Though the queue system has been a little more than faulty from time to time, queue times appear to be on the rise on a lot of servers, which impacts a game so reliant on instances that must be queued for (and gives the player very little else to do).
There is no way to justify that UI, other than to say it is a console UI and the PC one was a straight up after thought.
I still sub to the game, but ironically enough, I had more fun playing solo. Once some of my friends started playing and I started gping with them, the chat interface really, really started making me hate the game.
The content patches will be constantly delayed by the need to vette it through all the Sony companies associated with both platforms, again, killing the PC side of the game. For PS3, I'm sure it will do substantially better than PC over the long term.
There is no way to justify that UI, other than to say it is a console UI and the PC one was a straight up after thought. I still sub to the game, but ironically enough, I had more fun playing solo. Once some of my friends started playing and I started gping with them, the chat interface really, really started making me hate the game. The content patches will be constantly delayed by the need to vette it through all the Sony companies associated with both platforms, again, killing the PC side of the game. For PS3, I'm sure it will do substantially better than PC over the long term.
One would think PS3 users are more happy. Seems not the case:
Also, another problem i think that, a non DC fans will not last long here, at least this is what i think
because me and 5 of my friends decided to buy this together and play together, which is fun the first 20 levels
2 of them are a true DC fans, they know everything, every lore there is, while 3 of us doesn't know a single damn thing about DC story ( we only know the basics of DC )
although the game is indeed good and fun, it just doens't really make me addicted to it,
because when my friends aren't playing, i just mostly solo everything, i didn't interact with other players because they wouldn't bother to reply, this is another problem, typing is a bit long to take even if you have the keyboard
so, for me, this game just cannot get addicting for non DC fans, at least from my point of view
Imma avid DC fan, I got every lobo written.Fav was contract on gawd.I love mmos played everything from UO to CoH to wow to fwo to ro to shadow bane and quite a few more I dont even care to remember, I ground out elder jedi before nge was even a thought and watched raph koster butcher uo and move onto SWG and do the same with his lame publishs.
Im no expert but anyone coulda made DCUO a competitive endeavor, its just SOE for ya.They could mess up anything, look at their history.
DCUO will not "fail" per say. It will no doubt end up in SOE's graveyard of other titles. The fact of the matter is big titles are expected to have big deliveries. This one fell short of the mark. Older titles like CoH/CoV and champions online had way more customization options, better UI, league bases solo, group and pvp content. Why couldn't DCUO?
I truly think this was a console port not a PC design. I am hoping SOE will do a 360 and get the bugs fixed and deliver more content. I would really like to see this game suceed. I unsubbed the second month after release but I do plan on going back to check the game out every now & then.
@OP - Spot on. Missed the unbalanced PVP due to broken glitching/exploiting.
The game is pretty dead these days. I played at prelaunch and my subs runs out in a few days. I play on the most populated server (Death and Glory) and it is a ghosttown now. People are leaving in droves.
{Pretend this is a link to a post where I said the game was worth the box price, but not the monthly subscription fee so I get to say, "Told you so."}
I would probably buy the box (or download), but I knew back in beta I wasn't going to want to pay the subscription fee. I did expect the game to at least do 'Ok' on the PS3 since it did provide a little more to the player than your standard console game. If they keep the updates up it could still be a 'winner'. I guess it depends on how dedicated they are to making the game successful (popular).
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
{Pretend this is a link to a post where I said the game was worth the box price, but not the monthly subscription fee so I get to say, "Told you so."}
I would probably buy the box (or download), but I knew back in beta I wasn't going to want to pay the subscription fee. I did expect the game to at least do 'Ok' on the PS3 since it did provide a little more to the player than your standard console game. If they keep the updates up it could still be a 'winner'. I guess it depends on how dedicated they are to making the game successful (popular).
hehe Here is my "I told you so". SOE goes on my "don't buy any more games from them" list with Cryptic.
The bottom line is: Do you want to be bored at max level hanging around in Watchtower, or Stormwind, or Bree, or (whatever city is in your MMO that people sit around doing nothing in)?
{Pretend this is a link to a post where I said the game was worth the box price, but not the monthly subscription fee so I get to say, "Told you so."}
I would probably buy the box (or download), but I knew back in beta I wasn't going to want to pay the subscription fee. I did expect the game to at least do 'Ok' on the PS3 since it did provide a little more to the player than your standard console game. If they keep the updates up it could still be a 'winner'. I guess it depends on how dedicated they are to making the game successful (popular).
hehe Here is my "I told you so". SOE goes on my "don't buy any more games from them" list with Cryptic.
SOE has not released a good game since EQ 1 and Cryptic? Did they release CoX? If so that is their only good release.
{Pretend this is a link to a post where I said the game was worth the box price, but not the monthly subscription fee so I get to say, "Told you so."}
I would probably buy the box (or download), but I knew back in beta I wasn't going to want to pay the subscription fee. I did expect the game to at least do 'Ok' on the PS3 since it did provide a little more to the player than your standard console game. If they keep the updates up it could still be a 'winner'. I guess it depends on how dedicated they are to making the game successful (popular).
hehe Here is my "I told you so". SOE goes on my "don't buy any more games from them" list with Cryptic.
SOE has not released a good game since EQ 1 and Cryptic? Did they release CoX? If so that is their only good release.
i'll just go with the I told you so bit.. actually i thought Elikal made some very convincing arguments, well thought out, and detailed, given the current state of DCUO, well..... nuff said
You can say a lot about SoE, but you can't call them slow. They were pretty quick to completely overhall EQ2 after it was received poorly. Might have been too little to late for many, but it was a totally different game after about a year.
You know Elikal before playing the game myself I used to think you were a good resource of knowledge on the subject of what is particularly wrong with the game but now, not so much. You got one thing right though, gearscore is a biatch and it is an extremely bad design choice. But some of the other stuff just sounds like you don't know how to play the game, especially the part complaining about blocking and being knocked around.
the grind is not even that bad, blues can be acquired easily. im dps full t1 pve /3 t2 and i'm full t2 pvp 270+percison 1100+might 70+sp. I have zero gear from raids (never needed one). i do great on raids, pvp, and so on... i have no problems. i have rolled with groups most with blues and greens and raided succesfully. then i have rolled with groups all with full t1/t2 purples & raided gears & 97 dps have problems on a raid and even gave up at some point on the same raid which i did with groups with lower geared ppl. does that boogle your mind?
the only thing i need currrently is a 97 dps weapon, i pass on other weapons because i dont want to reroll to any other weapon from my character/hero persona. this doesn't really matter much in pve but, on pvp to match opponents dmg output with 97 dps matters more. on pve with a pvp 77 dps, can match or even out dmg some 97 dps weapon users.
-quest/mission i did solo most of it and flew up to 30 pretty fast too. but, its designed that way!!! just imagine how much content they are going to give us by the end of this year. if they keep gving us monthly content plus expansion content. my only complaint is DCU need to feel more alive with dynamic enviroment/events. make me/us feel like a superhero/villian and also remind you there is a war! a invasion! i shouldn't have to go to the watchtower to grab a good deeds mission or collect missions.
-targeting is not bad also. i had no problems with it since beta. selection click would suck. please keep that away from this game.
-UI is always getting fix. currently , i have no problems besides i need more hotkeys options.
also i have played with others that is just horrible at this game. maybe some people just fail at this game?
You can say a lot about SoE, but you can't call them slow. They were pretty quick to completely overhall EQ2 after it was received poorly. Might have been too little to late for many, but it was a totally different game after about a year.
er when you say quick.. you are aware how long EQ2 has been out right.. and that the over haul.. the last one at least.. took several years to happen ??
Man I gotta tell you, the OP of this string was so on point with what he said that it was almost prophetic that he recognized all that he did way back in February. Right now, due to many of the exact reasons that he stated, DC looks like City of No Heroes on just about every server, and it's a shame too because everyone I played with really liked the game.
Man I gotta tell you, the OP of this string was so on point with what he said that it was almost prophetic that he recognized all that he did way back in February. Right now, due to many of the exact reasons that he stated, DC looks like City of No Heroes on just about every server, and it's a shame too because everyone I played with really liked the game.
Thanks. I'd hate to have to pat myself on the shoulder.
But yeah, I am pretty sure my analysis was quite correct. Not that I ever thought it was so difficult to see...
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
I think there is an extra point to why Dc Universe would fail... and other games with superheroes in it... everyone enjoys playing spider man (Single player) or other super hero games... because they play as spider man... and the other heroes are either in that heros world like villains and/or allies... now... games where you are a superhero and everyone around is a superhero sounds way too lame... everyone is a superhero... and everyone has special powers... , i don't know but, that sounds the same as nobody has anything special to make the game unique... now it is true I haven't played the game.. but this is a fair assumption I believe... and in champions online, you have the npcs to make up for it.. i'm guessing dc universe has it aswell.. the poor poor people who need to be protected.. that's the whole point of superheroes... to rescue and/or protect their dear citizens...
This goes off on a tangent but SWG had the following additional elements, which you have not listed, that made it a sandbox:
1. crafting and an economy that encouraged people to work together for equipment. Some specialized in harvesting, others crafting, still others selling. Player-crafted equipment was superior. Some equipment only came from players. Players created enhancements and modified equipment. There was equipment-wear that required repair and replacement.
2. The HAM bar, particularly the mental portion which made interaction with player-entertainers critical as well as camping.
3. Customization. Homes, non-essential equipment, and character customization were all performed by players.
4. Player-run cities that brought all of this together
/Edit
Ultimately, SWG gave players tools and the motivation to work together, which inceitivzed them to keep playing and driving "Adventure", without exclusively relying on go here and then here and then here.
/End Edit
There were also battlegrounds that provided bonuses if you owned them, although they were buggy. PVP in and of itself doesn't make a game a sandbox, but the TEF was truly unique. TEF made pvp extremely dynamic, even if it was ultimately inconsequential, unlike a simple pvp server where you beat down the next guy.
That's not a superhero issue, imo--that's an IP issue. Very true that in DCUO, you can't really be those iconic characters (with a few brief exceptions in pvp); LotRO has the same issue -- you cannot be Frodo or Aragorn; same with Star Wars Galaxies -- you cannot be Luke, Han, or Darth Vader.
I actually think it is worse in LOTRO, but that might just be because I always secretly wanted to be the Jokers henchman.
Any IP based on books or movies of course have the same problems. In LOTROs case would it probably been better if they set it in another age than letting the players be extras hanging around the true heroes.
IPs based on P&P RPGs are a lot easier to adapt to a MMO, they are after all made to allow the players to be heroes.
I think Star Wars and LotRO suffer from this particularly. Moving to a different age as you suggested for LotR and as Bioware is doing with The Old Republic is tricky though -- players can be heroes yes, but you've drastically altered the familiar lore. At least in the superhero genre, borne of comics, enthusaists are familiar with alternate universes, re-invisionings, as well as outright ret-conning of characters and stories and so changing the "Age" isn't necessarily heretical (although you still cannot be the famous, iconic hero/villain).
Signs of the game failing are already in the stats. XFire is already showing a steep drop, down to rank 111 from 65 close to launch. By next month it should be at same level of CoX and how old is that game?
The thing is with casual game is that what it really means is lack of content. So when the even the casuals get bored of the game then it is done for.
My gaming blog
Instances of posts by players noticing the declining population have been slowly increasing, showing at least an anecdotal trend:
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuopc/posts/list.m?topic_id=21227
http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuopc/posts/list.m?topic_id=21133
Though the queue system has been a little more than faulty from time to time, queue times appear to be on the rise on a lot of servers, which impacts a game so reliant on instances that must be queued for (and gives the player very little else to do).
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
After trying it out for an entire month of play I wil change the version from "why it will fail to why it has failed".
I still sub to the game, but ironically enough, I had more fun playing solo. Once some of my friends started playing and I started gping with them, the chat interface really, really started making me hate the game.
The content patches will be constantly delayed by the need to vette it through all the Sony companies associated with both platforms, again, killing the PC side of the game. For PS3, I'm sure it will do substantially better than PC over the long term.
One would think PS3 users are more happy. Seems not the case:
http://totalplaystation.com/ps3/dc-universe-online/reviews/9635/2/
This guy rated the PS3 version 3/10, teh.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Also, another problem i think that, a non DC fans will not last long here, at least this is what i think
because me and 5 of my friends decided to buy this together and play together, which is fun the first 20 levels
2 of them are a true DC fans, they know everything, every lore there is, while 3 of us doesn't know a single damn thing about DC story ( we only know the basics of DC )
although the game is indeed good and fun, it just doens't really make me addicted to it,
because when my friends aren't playing, i just mostly solo everything, i didn't interact with other players because they wouldn't bother to reply, this is another problem, typing is a bit long to take even if you have the keyboard
so, for me, this game just cannot get addicting for non DC fans, at least from my point of view
So What Now?
Imma avid DC fan, I got every lobo written.Fav was contract on gawd.I love mmos played everything from UO to CoH to wow to fwo to ro to shadow bane and quite a few more I dont even care to remember, I ground out elder jedi before nge was even a thought and watched raph koster butcher uo and move onto SWG and do the same with his lame publishs.
Im no expert but anyone coulda made DCUO a competitive endeavor, its just SOE for ya.They could mess up anything, look at their history.
link
DCUO will not "fail" per say. It will no doubt end up in SOE's graveyard of other titles. The fact of the matter is big titles are expected to have big deliveries. This one fell short of the mark. Older titles like CoH/CoV and champions online had way more customization options, better UI, league bases solo, group and pvp content. Why couldn't DCUO?
I truly think this was a console port not a PC design. I am hoping SOE will do a 360 and get the bugs fixed and deliver more content. I would really like to see this game suceed. I unsubbed the second month after release but I do plan on going back to check the game out every now & then.
@OP - Spot on. Missed the unbalanced PVP due to broken glitching/exploiting.
The game is pretty dead these days. I played at prelaunch and my subs runs out in a few days. I play on the most populated server (Death and Glory) and it is a ghosttown now. People are leaving in droves.
{Pretend this is a link to a post where I said the game was worth the box price, but not the monthly subscription fee so I get to say, "Told you so."}
I would probably buy the box (or download), but I knew back in beta I wasn't going to want to pay the subscription fee. I did expect the game to at least do 'Ok' on the PS3 since it did provide a little more to the player than your standard console game. If they keep the updates up it could still be a 'winner'. I guess it depends on how dedicated they are to making the game successful (popular).
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
hehe Here is my "I told you so". SOE goes on my "don't buy any more games from them" list with Cryptic.
DCUO isn't a bad game. It is what it is.
The bottom line is: Do you want to be bored at max level hanging around in Watchtower, or Stormwind, or Bree, or (whatever city is in your MMO that people sit around doing nothing in)?
SOE has not released a good game since EQ 1 and Cryptic? Did they release CoX? If so that is their only good release.
My gaming blog
i'll just go with the I told you so bit.. actually i thought Elikal made some very convincing arguments, well thought out, and detailed, given the current state of DCUO, well..... nuff said
You can say a lot about SoE, but you can't call them slow. They were pretty quick to completely overhall EQ2 after it was received poorly. Might have been too little to late for many, but it was a totally different game after about a year.
You know Elikal before playing the game myself I used to think you were a good resource of knowledge on the subject of what is particularly wrong with the game but now, not so much. You got one thing right though, gearscore is a biatch and it is an extremely bad design choice. But some of the other stuff just sounds like you don't know how to play the game, especially the part complaining about blocking and being knocked around.
This is not a game.
imo
-gearscore
the grind is not even that bad, blues can be acquired easily. im dps full t1 pve /3 t2 and i'm full t2 pvp 270+percison 1100+might 70+sp. I have zero gear from raids (never needed one). i do great on raids, pvp, and so on... i have no problems. i have rolled with groups most with blues and greens and raided succesfully. then i have rolled with groups all with full t1/t2 purples & raided gears & 97 dps have problems on a raid and even gave up at some point on the same raid which i did with groups with lower geared ppl. does that boogle your mind?
the only thing i need currrently is a 97 dps weapon, i pass on other weapons because i dont want to reroll to any other weapon from my character/hero persona. this doesn't really matter much in pve but, on pvp to match opponents dmg output with 97 dps matters more. on pve with a pvp 77 dps, can match or even out dmg some 97 dps weapon users.
-quest/mission i did solo most of it and flew up to 30 pretty fast too. but, its designed that way!!! just imagine how much content they are going to give us by the end of this year. if they keep gving us monthly content plus expansion content. my only complaint is DCU need to feel more alive with dynamic enviroment/events. make me/us feel like a superhero/villian and also remind you there is a war! a invasion! i shouldn't have to go to the watchtower to grab a good deeds mission or collect missions.
-targeting is not bad also. i had no problems with it since beta. selection click would suck. please keep that away from this game.
-UI is always getting fix. currently , i have no problems besides i need more hotkeys options.
also i have played with others that is just horrible at this game. maybe some people just fail at this game?
er when you say quick.. you are aware how long EQ2 has been out right.. and that the over haul.. the last one at least.. took several years to happen ??
Man I gotta tell you, the OP of this string was so on point with what he said that it was almost prophetic that he recognized all that he did way back in February. Right now, due to many of the exact reasons that he stated, DC looks like City of No Heroes on just about every server, and it's a shame too because everyone I played with really liked the game.
Thanks. I'd hate to have to pat myself on the shoulder.
But yeah, I am pretty sure my analysis was quite correct. Not that I ever thought it was so difficult to see...
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert