Crafting looks really good and looks very complexed and amazing i can not wait for this game
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Well they cleared that up quickly and nicely before the community started blowing things out of proportion. Kodus ArenaNet on putting out the flames as quickly as possible... like they always have to do, with every single feature they talk about.
The OP the the thread should put those 2 links in the starter post.
You really don't get it do you. Why would'nt we think they would innovate the crafting system when they did with EVERYTHING else. Since there has really only been ONLY ONE game in the series its hard to say that A) Its a series and What the series has been about. I think you are confuseing the gear based grind of wow with the guild wars idea of you can have lots of different LOOKING gear but the stats don't change. Some of it is harder to get then others but geting does NOT give you an advantage unlike in wow where the harder to get stuff DOES.
You would be supprised how MUCH people like and enjoy a GOOD crafting and that its A LOT more then just a side thing to do. pvp for me is VERY unimportant and I would'nt care if they left it out of the game. BUT I can understand that SOME people like and enjoy it a lot so I could understand if the pvp system badly done people will complain. SO why is it so hard for YOU to understand that crafting is important to other people even if its not for YOU.
If you were expecting the best crafting system ever then you were setting yourself up for disappointment. Nobody at Anet ever said the crafting system would be "innovative" or "revolutionary". They said the system was going to be ROBUST. They gave no indications what-so-ever that they would be showing off a crafting system that nobody has ever seen before.
People have to learn that sometimes you have to take a developers words at face value. They never hinted at some ground-breaking, revolutionary system. Anet's philosophy isn't to take every little system and give it a complete overhaul. What they do is look at the flaws most other games leave in their features and try their best to make theirs work as well as they can make it.
-snipped-
They have taken the grind out of one side and put it on the other. Instead of EG makeing 100 "useless" swords you lvl you now have to try 100 of "useless" combos of mats. Just to make ONE item. Thanks but no thanks at least the other way I KNEW what I had to get and do to lvl.
So the idea of asking someone or taking part in the community to learn something in an MMO (MMO's by the way are different from normal games primarily in the social and community aspects) is too much bother?
You really don't get it do you. Why would'nt we think they would innovate the crafting system when they did with EVERYTHING else. Since there has really only been ONLY ONE game in the series its hard to say that A) Its a series and What the series has been about. I think you are confuseing the gear based grind of wow with the guild wars idea of you can have lots of different LOOKING gear but the stats don't change. Some of it is harder to get then others but geting does NOT give you an advantage unlike in wow where the harder to get stuff DOES.
You would be supprised how MUCH people like and enjoy a GOOD crafting and that its A LOT more then just a side thing to do. pvp for me is VERY unimportant and I would'nt care if they left it out of the game. BUT I can understand that SOME people like and enjoy it a lot so I could understand if the pvp system badly done people will complain. SO why is it so hard for YOU to understand that crafting is important to other people even if its not for YOU.
If you were expecting the best crafting system ever then you were setting yourself up for disappointment. Nobody at Anet ever said the crafting system would be "innovative" or "revolutionary". They said the system was going to be ROBUST. They gave no indications what-so-ever that they would be showing off a crafting system that nobody has ever seen before.
People have to learn that sometimes you have to take a developers words at face value. They never hinted at some ground-breaking, revolutionary system. Anet's philosophy isn't to take every little system and give it a complete overhaul. What they do is look at the flaws most other games leave in their features and try their best to make theirs work as well as they can make it.
Yeah, sounds like WoW crafting... no biggy really, thats not where this game choses to innovate. Thats fine, I didnt mid wow crafting so this wiont be bad IMO.
I must say this is looking like the most underwhelming aspect of the game that has been revealed so far. I hope they spend some considerable amount more time on designing this.
Crafters generally enjoy a more complex system with more options, this is sounding exactly like any other MMO minus the shared node thing (which might actually be a bad thing as it can flood the market with materials too much).
So yea, I hope they get around making this more intresting. A few more crafting skills wouldn't hurt either.
I was'nt expecting the best crafting system ever. Because that would have to be better than SWG and I knew thats was'nt going to happen. They gave no indications what-so-ever that they would'nt be showing off a crafting system that nobody has ever seen before either. "Anet's philosophy isn't to take every little system and give it a complete overhaul". Really?? Beacuse they EXCATLY what they have done with everything else so far. So why WOULD'NT they do it crafting? I guess they never looked at Fallen Earth or Ryzom let alone SWG or hell even eve much as I hate the game it has a better crafting system. I was just hopeing for something better than this crappy wow crafting system with supposely no grind. This discovery way is going to last about a week maybe a little more and then its all going to be on a wiki so why would anyone both to waste time doing it the old way.
They have taken the grind out of one side and put it on the other. Instead of EG makeing 100 "useless" swords you lvl you now have to try 100 of "useless" combos of mats. Just to make ONE item. Thanks but no thanks at least the other way I KNEW what I had to get and do to lvl.
Not all things in GW2 is completely new stuff. There is guild Vs Guild PvP, Arenas, the personal storyline (well, it is something we seen in Biowares "Neverwinter nights" before and while that isn't a MMO it still is a multiplayer RPG).
And you don't have to try all those combos, they will be posted on Wiki within a week after release all of them.
The whole system is slightly better than the average MMO, deal with it.
why are people saying it's the same as anything other mmo? In other mmo's if you try to combine 4 random ingredients will you create a recipe?
Crafting in Aion is like ripping your eyelids off with plyers. It's an absolute waste of time with no benefit, unless you know enough idiots that will buy your crap. Random chances of failure so that you can lose your mats, and random chances of proc'ing meaning if it didn't proc you wasted your mats anyhow.
AoC crafting is easier, but there is really no benefit to it. You farm areas to find recipes so that you can craft new things, but that is about the extent of it.
I'm excited at the prospect of trying random combinations of stuff to see if I can discover a recipe. My only disappointment is in that there is only 4 separate components slots, which makes it feel like there is a rather limited number of combinations to test (people will have it figured out in a week) but if there is enough different types of materials, then that could add considerably to the amount of time for people to have it all figured out as such. I think I still would prefer at least double the amount of components slots to potentially use per recipe.
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I must say this is looking like the most underwhelming aspect of the game that has been revealed so far. I hope they spend some considerable amount more time on designing this.
Crafters generally enjoy a more complex system with more options, this is sounding exactly like any other MMO minus the shared node thing (which might actually be a bad thing as it can flood the market with materials too much).
So yea, I hope they get around making this more intresting. A few more crafting skills wouldn't hurt either.
The hell with that! Why do I have to wait even longer whilst ArenaNet re-iterates their crafted system, for the jaded few that want an overly complex crafting system, in a casual friendly MMO. After reading their blog post and clarifications, I'd say that their crafting system is perfect for the kind of game they are making. It's not overly complex or in-depth but their's little grind or frustration when your items don't crit. and it helps promote social interactions (asking people how to make certain items).
You really don't get it do you. Why would'nt we think they would innovate the crafting system when they did with EVERYTHING else. Since there has really only been ONLY ONE game in the series its hard to say that A) Its a series and What the series has been about. I think you are confuseing the gear based grind of wow with the guild wars idea of you can have lots of different LOOKING gear but the stats don't change. Some of it is harder to get then others but geting does NOT give you an advantage unlike in wow where the harder to get stuff DOES. You would be supprised how MUCH people like and enjoy a GOOD crafting and that its A LOT more then just a side thing to do. pvp for me is VERY unimportant and I would'nt care if they left it out of the game. BUT I can understand that SOME people like and enjoy it a lot so I could understand if the pvp system badly done people will complain. SO why is it so hard for YOU to understand that crafting is important to other people even if its not for YOU.
One game in the series? Are you stupid? There's 3 plus an expansion pack.
No I would NOT be surprised by how many people that like crafting systems. I like to craft in MMOs, I never said otherwise you complete idiot. You think I don't care about the crafting in this game? I do. I'm discussing it right now. So obviously I do. But I will not fool myself into thinking that they were going innovate the crafting system. ESPECIALLY when the original series didn't have a robust crafting system at all. Just because they're "innovating" the other systems does not give anyone the right to believe they're going to innovate a part of the game that is not as important.
And to anyone who thinks this is going to be a gear/equipment driven game, you must be crazy. Yes, they're putting a little bit more focus on equipment, but it still doesn't matter as much as personal skill itself. That's what Guild Wars has ALWAYS been about.
I dislike the discover system intensely. Warhammer Online used it and it was abysmal.
Making someone spend/waste time on trial and error crafting sounds ok on paper "oh people will be really excited when they discover something" but in reality when you make someone spend ten minutes swapping materials in and out of windows to try and get a result what you really do is frustrate the player. Even worse is if the materials are consumed in this process.
Warhammer did it so badly (shocker) that even 3 months after release people still had no idea how to use the alchemy skill - which materials made which potions and which combinations were more useful than others. There were threads with hundreds of responses and still people could not answer simple questions. People stopped crafting because they were simply wasting materials making rubbish. Of course I don't think anyone, least of all Anet, could develop something worse than Mythic but the principle is the same.
A recipe system that is known and can be worked towards is far better. Make the materials more rare, or make the recipe itself rare but at least let players know what to do and what to work towards. Have a list of recipes and a discovery aspect to it: when you craft an item you have a chance to discover a new recipe that is linked in some way to the recipe you just used.
For example: you make a sword using the special ingredient of unicorn horn. You have the chance to discover another recipe that uses unicorn horn for a similar purpose because you now understand the properties of unicorn horn a little better.
I also dislike the idea that you have to manually move your materials into slots in a separate window to craft, instead of simply having them in your bag. If this was a recipe system and you knew inherently which materials to put in which slot and you only had to do this once, maybe. But combined with a discovery system this will simply get frustrating. Building frustration into a game is a quick way to have people switch off.
What if you want to craft multiple items of the same kind? Do you have to move each material individually each time? Even if you only have to do it once to activate the recipe and there is a button for "create all" or a numerical value you can input, why have the window/slot mechanic at all. Just let the player have the materials in their bag, choose a recipe and hit a button.
Complexity is great, crafting needs to be complex. But the interface needs to be as simple as possible, build the complexity into the materials available and the recipes, don't build it into the actual minutae of the crafting interface because that will lead only to dissatisfaction.
Of course it is all very early and maybe the system was poorly explained but as it stands it seems like gathering will be great, but a lot of people simply wont bother with crafting until a website comes out a few months after release listing all the known patterns and how to achieve them. Then this discovery mechanic will simply be a slightly frustrating hurdle overcome by third party information - is this really how Anet wants to progress. Surely games these days should be thinking of how they can keep the players in game rather than alt-tabbed to the internet looking for information on the game they are supposed to be playing.
Yea, EQ2 has that, dont even have to have the item in your inventory anymore. If you have a harvest depot, just comes out of that. Do we dare mention that EQ2 mode of crafting is just spamming 3 -6 buttons while the bars move ??
I actually prefer the discovery method, makes me think that im actually doing something. Or even a crafting system like Vanguard, where you had a set amount of points to use ( trust me, it got better as you got higher levels and better gear)
Am I actually seeing people complain on here? Have any of you even tried "crafting" in Guild Wars? This is a HUGE step up. More fleshed out than I expected to be honest.
Just because it is a huge step up from GW1 doesn't mean its good.
The crafting side isn't a huge step up at all. Like in GW1, there's nothing there.
But it's not a huge step down, either. Plenty of games have lots of grinding in the crafting system, and nothing else.
WoW's crafting system, for example, is just a bunch of grinding. If you want to compare GW2 to that, then consider that ArenaNet removed the grinding. There's nothing left after removing the grinding, but that's still a big upgrade over having to grind a lot.
I dislike the discover system intensely. Warhammer Online used it and it was abysmal.
Making someone spend/waste time on trial and error crafting sounds ok on paper "oh people will be really excited when they discover something" but in reality when you make someone spend ten minutes swapping materials in and out of windows to try and get a result what you really do is frustrate the player. Even worse is if the materials are consumed in this process.
Warhammer did it so badly (shocker) that even 3 months after release people still had no idea how to use the alchemy skill - which materials made which potions and which combinations were more useful than others. There were threads with hundreds of responses and still people could not answer simple questions. People stopped crafting because they were simply wasting materials making rubbish. Of course I don't think anyone, least of all Anet, could develop something worse than Mythic but the principle is the same.
*snip*
Game Designer Andrew McLeod has some additional information to provide about the crafting philosophy, so here are the details:
Many people have had misconceptions in regards to how the discovery system will work. You will not need to find the recipe for an item before you can discover how to make an item, and experimenting with different materials will not consume the materials that you’re testing with. If you put in the correct materials to craft a discoverable recipe, you can craft the item and discover the recipe. The level of crafting skill you have in that discipline does restrict what you can discover - if you just learned how to craft weapons, you can’t immediately create legendary swords - you need to hone your skills by making more mundane swords first. However, you shouldn’t have to make twenty bronze swords before you can learn to make an iron one.
There... did that clear up any misconceptions or are you still gonna QQ about a perfectly sound crafting system? I think ArenaNet are already aware of what was flawed in WAR's crafting system and have found a way to work around that.
Nope, didn't clear up anything seeing as I had already read the links posted earlier in the thread. Warhammers system was much worse, incorporating item consumption and failed crafts, but the basis of the discovery system is the same. Trial and error and wasted time that will be circumvented by a wiki somewhere.
I still find it hard to believe that a game designer is happy to have players alt-tabbing out of their game to locate third party information because the game was designed with a frustrating system. Discovery in the sense they discuss is not going to be fun or rewarding for the vast majority of people.
We all know people will move through the path of least resistance. Why not factor this into game design instead of just saying, "well people will do it anyway so we are just gonna do what we wanna do" (which is basically what was stated in another blog post).
My post was not a QQ, it was an opinion. I have never been much of a crafter in any MMO, more of a gatherer. This has generally been caused by the crafting systems being boring and/or frustratingly designed. It seems that GW2 won't be much different but it lets me spend more time on other aspects of the game. It just seems a shame that a company that seems to be doing everything else right seems to have designed a system that appears not to fit with the rest of their design ideology.
Just a shame that here was yet another chance for a crafting system to be engaging and yet another chance where it seems not to be the case. It remains to be seen however, and more explanation, maybe a video of crafting in action, but with the explanations we have it sounds a bit naff.
I don't quite understand your approach to my post, unless you had a hand in designing the system itself. I really don't understand why people take other's opinions so personally these days.
Since the main event seems to always be gw2 vs tor, id have to give a point to tor in regards to both game's crafting systems. Crafting is a major part of mmorpgs for me and unfortunately, anet did not deliver on the same level as bioware. Id like to see more info obviously, but from what we know so far, gw2's crafting system seems underwhelming to say the least.
Since the main event seems to always be gw2 vs tor, id have to give a point to tor in regards to both game's crafting systems. Crafting is a major part of mmorpgs for me and unfortunately, anet did not deliver on the same level as bioware. Id like to see more info obviously, but from what we know so far, gw2's crafting system seems underwhelming to say the least.
The content that anet is shiping in gw2 w/out month fee is pret solid compared to others mmos
Originally posted by Foomerang Since the main event seems to always be gw2 vs tor, id have to give a point to tor in regards to both game's crafting systems. Crafting is a major part of mmorpgs for me and unfortunately, anet did not deliver on the same level as bioware. Id like to see more info obviously, but from what we know so far, gw2's crafting system seems underwhelming to say the least.
The content that anet is shiping in gw2 w/out month fee is pret solid compared to others mmos
This "excuse" if you want to call it is unsettling to me. Id rather pay anet 15 bucks a month if that meant a more robust crafting system. But we know this really isnt the issue. Plunking in random materials and "discover" what happens is not crafting. Its guessing and rng. The drawback is that after 2 months tops, the "mystery" will be gone and every item will have its ingredients online. So what are you left with? Basically just another drag n drop crafting system with node farming for materials.
And whats even more disheartening is that you can drop crafting professions and max out everything, then for a fee, just pick up your old max level professions. This eliminates any player economy or interdependency. I really hope they look into that aspect.
No where did it say that this system was set in stone, I'm pretty sure that the dev's are watching these forums and getting ideas from us. So, until they actually ship the game and call it done, anything and everything is subject to change.
I say we give them time, and keep giving them POSITIVE idea's. Anet sounds like a company that will listen to our ideas on these forums, instead of other companys that ignore the player base.
Since the main event seems to always be gw2 vs tor, id have to give a point to tor in regards to both game's crafting systems. Crafting is a major part of mmorpgs for me and unfortunately, anet did not deliver on the same level as bioware. Id like to see more info obviously, but from what we know so far, gw2's crafting system seems underwhelming to say the least.
The content that anet is shiping in gw2 w/out month fee is pret solid compared to others mmos
This "excuse" if you want to call it is unsettling to me. Id rather pay anet 15 bucks a month if that meant a more robust crafting system. But we know this really isnt the issue. Plunking in random materials and "discover" what happens is not crafting. Its guessing and rng. The drawback is that after 2 months tops, the "mystery" will be gone and every item will have its ingredients online. So what are you left with? Basically just another drag n drop crafting system with node farming for materials.
And whats even more disheartening is that you can drop crafting professions and max out everything, then for a fee, just pick up your old max level professions. This eliminates and player economy or interdependency. I really hope they look into that aspect.
Nope. The crafting system isn't rng based. If you have a recipe you either get it right or get a little bonus of more crafting exp and/or some of your mats back. It also shouldn't require very much guessing either. Logic works perfectly well when you are trying to make something as simple as a sword.
What "excuse" are you talking about? Paying 15 bucks a month doesn't guarantee you anything except that you pay more. Seeing as the crafting system is already in place, paying 15 bucks won't do anything to make that system any better or more complex.
I really don't see how this can be seen as a con. They could have just as easily implemented it so that you have to restart that profession completely, and guess what that means, GRIND!!! Anet are, above all, anti-grief and anti-grind.
Since the main event seems to always be gw2 vs tor, id have to give a point to tor in regards to both game's crafting systems. Crafting is a major part of mmorpgs for me and unfortunately, anet did not deliver on the same level as bioware. Id like to see more info obviously, but from what we know so far, gw2's crafting system seems underwhelming to say the least.
The content that anet is shiping in gw2 w/out month fee is pret solid compared to others mmos
And whats even more disheartening is that you can drop crafting professions and max out everything, then for a fee, just pick up your old max level professions. This eliminates any player economy or interdependency. I really hope they look into that aspect.
I agree with this point here about interdependency. I think that being able to switch crafting professions within the same character is a bad move honestly. Having someone on your server that it known for having access to the best and most abundant amount of armor, weapons, or whatever makes for a better business for that crafter. This is really the only thing I don't like about it so far, which in the whole scheme of things is pretty minor.
This "excuse" if you want to call it is unsettling to me. Id rather pay anet 15 bucks a month if that meant a more robust crafting system. But we know this really isnt the issue. Plunking in random materials and "discover" what happens is not crafting. Its guessing and rng. The drawback is that after 2 months tops, the "mystery" will be gone and every item will have its ingredients online. So what are you left with? Basically just another drag n drop crafting system with node farming for materials.
And whats even more disheartening is that you can drop crafting professions and max out everything, then for a fee, just pick up your old max level professions. This eliminates any player economy or interdependency. I really hope they look into that aspect.
Yeah, I agree that "it cost you less" suck as an argument.
The problem is just which crafting system that actually is better?
Rift? I think not, it is even more simplistic and boring. Everquest 2? Hardly. EQ2s crafting system is extremely grindy and you have to do the same rather boring minigame for ever to max out the skill, And you produce an amount of vendortrash that is unimaginable unless you are a provisioner. Vanguards? Well, in some aspects but it is still rather grindy.
There is actually only one system around I can think of that really is better. So enjoy yourself in APB.
The thing is that MMO crafting usually sucks badly. I have only 2 requirements for a good crafting system:
1. You design the item yourself, like in NWN Aurora toolset.
2. Little or no grind.
That is not too much to ask for. Or it seems like it is. ANET fix problem number 2 here, I believe most crafters will get a custom interface or get a list so they don't have to grind it but the customization thing is none existant anyways.
And yes, I did not mention old SWG since the system only existed for a short time and I never had the chance to try it out. And Wurms, never played it and don't know enough about the game to comment it.
But crafting is the part where MMOs really can improve. Making "funny" minigames don't cut it, it aint so funny after 500 crafted items.
Nope. The crafting system isn't rng based. If you have a recipe you either get it right or get a little bonus of more crafting exp and/or some of your mats back. It also shouldn't require very much guessing either. Logic works perfectly well when you are trying to make something as simple as a sword.
Hm, ok. From what I read it seems like you put different ingredients in varying orders to yield different items. That is how you discover recipes. So im not sure how you came up with having a recipe first and getting it right. Not even sure what you mean by that actually, heh.
What "excuse" are you talking about? Paying 15 bucks a month doesn't guarantee you anything except that you pay more. Seeing as the crafting system is already in place, paying 15 bucks won't do anything to make that system any better or more complex.
The "excuse" I was referring to was from luizresende's reply. I was basically saying I felt the crafting system was lacking and he basically said it was ok to be that way because you arent paying a monthly fee.
I really don't see how this can be seen as a con. They could have just as easily implemented it so that you have to restart that profession completely, and guess what that means, GRIND!!! Anet are, above all, anti-grief and anti-grind.
The point isnt to grind out every profession nor is it to eliminate grinding out every profession. The actual point is that in a balanced crafting system/economy you dont have the option to be 100% self sufficient. You may have to *gasp* trade and work with others just like all the other pve content.
I dunno, maybe anet needs to ease up on the anti griefing mentality and stop assuming the worst in its target audience. Not everyone is going to exploit everything and grief other players. The solution is not to simply get rid of gameplay features that would put you in a situation where you may need another player's cooperation. This extends far beyond combat. Its the core of what mmorpgs are about: working together to achieve goals.
I dunno, maybe anet needs to ease up on the anti griefing mentality and stop assuming the worst in its target audience. Not everyone is going to exploit everything and grief other players. The solution is not to simply get rid of gameplay features that would put you in a situation where you may need another player's cooperation. This extends far beyond combat. Its the core of what mmorpgs are about: working together to achieve goals.
If they can, someone will grief you and the solution is to take away even the possibility.
I don't trust people and you shouldn't either. If you have no rules, no regulation, expect the worst.
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Comments
Crafting looks really good and looks very complexed and amazing i can not wait for this game
Playing: Single player games |
Awaiting: Wild Star |Blade & Soul | The Repopulation | The Elder Scrolls online | ArcheAge | Firefall | Survarium | Bless | Black Desert |
Played: Guild Wars | Diablo 3 |The War Z | Runescape |World of Warcraft |Combat Arms |Perfect World | Rift | Fiesta | DC universe online | Aion | Age of Conan |Allods | Vindictus | The Secret World | Forge | Battle of the Immortals | Global Agenda| Cabal Online | Tera |
LOL if you think this system is complex you would be totaly lost in SWG or Fallen Earth. This is SO simple a wow player could do it.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Well they cleared that up quickly and nicely before the community started blowing things out of proportion. Kodus ArenaNet on putting out the flames as quickly as possible... like they always have to do, with every single feature they talk about.
The OP the the thread should put those 2 links in the starter post.
So the idea of asking someone or taking part in the community to learn something in an MMO (MMO's by the way are different from normal games primarily in the social and community aspects) is too much bother?
Yeah, sounds like WoW crafting... no biggy really, thats not where this game choses to innovate. Thats fine, I didnt mid wow crafting so this wiont be bad IMO.
I must say this is looking like the most underwhelming aspect of the game that has been revealed so far. I hope they spend some considerable amount more time on designing this.
Crafters generally enjoy a more complex system with more options, this is sounding exactly like any other MMO minus the shared node thing (which might actually be a bad thing as it can flood the market with materials too much).
So yea, I hope they get around making this more intresting. A few more crafting skills wouldn't hurt either.
Not all things in GW2 is completely new stuff. There is guild Vs Guild PvP, Arenas, the personal storyline (well, it is something we seen in Biowares "Neverwinter nights" before and while that isn't a MMO it still is a multiplayer RPG).
And you don't have to try all those combos, they will be posted on Wiki within a week after release all of them.
The whole system is slightly better than the average MMO, deal with it.
why are people saying it's the same as anything other mmo? In other mmo's if you try to combine 4 random ingredients will you create a recipe?
Crafting in Aion is like ripping your eyelids off with plyers. It's an absolute waste of time with no benefit, unless you know enough idiots that will buy your crap. Random chances of failure so that you can lose your mats, and random chances of proc'ing meaning if it didn't proc you wasted your mats anyhow.
AoC crafting is easier, but there is really no benefit to it. You farm areas to find recipes so that you can craft new things, but that is about the extent of it.
I'm excited at the prospect of trying random combinations of stuff to see if I can discover a recipe. My only disappointment is in that there is only 4 separate components slots, which makes it feel like there is a rather limited number of combinations to test (people will have it figured out in a week) but if there is enough different types of materials, then that could add considerably to the amount of time for people to have it all figured out as such. I think I still would prefer at least double the amount of components slots to potentially use per recipe.
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The hell with that! Why do I have to wait even longer whilst ArenaNet re-iterates their crafted system, for the jaded few that want an overly complex crafting system, in a casual friendly MMO. After reading their blog post and clarifications, I'd say that their crafting system is perfect for the kind of game they are making. It's not overly complex or in-depth but their's little grind or frustration when your items don't crit. and it helps promote social interactions (asking people how to make certain items).
One game in the series? Are you stupid? There's 3 plus an expansion pack.
No I would NOT be surprised by how many people that like crafting systems. I like to craft in MMOs, I never said otherwise you complete idiot. You think I don't care about the crafting in this game? I do. I'm discussing it right now. So obviously I do. But I will not fool myself into thinking that they were going innovate the crafting system. ESPECIALLY when the original series didn't have a robust crafting system at all. Just because they're "innovating" the other systems does not give anyone the right to believe they're going to innovate a part of the game that is not as important.
And to anyone who thinks this is going to be a gear/equipment driven game, you must be crazy. Yes, they're putting a little bit more focus on equipment, but it still doesn't matter as much as personal skill itself. That's what Guild Wars has ALWAYS been about.
I dislike the discover system intensely. Warhammer Online used it and it was abysmal.
Making someone spend/waste time on trial and error crafting sounds ok on paper "oh people will be really excited when they discover something" but in reality when you make someone spend ten minutes swapping materials in and out of windows to try and get a result what you really do is frustrate the player. Even worse is if the materials are consumed in this process.
Warhammer did it so badly (shocker) that even 3 months after release people still had no idea how to use the alchemy skill - which materials made which potions and which combinations were more useful than others. There were threads with hundreds of responses and still people could not answer simple questions. People stopped crafting because they were simply wasting materials making rubbish. Of course I don't think anyone, least of all Anet, could develop something worse than Mythic but the principle is the same.
A recipe system that is known and can be worked towards is far better. Make the materials more rare, or make the recipe itself rare but at least let players know what to do and what to work towards. Have a list of recipes and a discovery aspect to it: when you craft an item you have a chance to discover a new recipe that is linked in some way to the recipe you just used.
For example: you make a sword using the special ingredient of unicorn horn. You have the chance to discover another recipe that uses unicorn horn for a similar purpose because you now understand the properties of unicorn horn a little better.
I also dislike the idea that you have to manually move your materials into slots in a separate window to craft, instead of simply having them in your bag. If this was a recipe system and you knew inherently which materials to put in which slot and you only had to do this once, maybe. But combined with a discovery system this will simply get frustrating. Building frustration into a game is a quick way to have people switch off.
What if you want to craft multiple items of the same kind? Do you have to move each material individually each time? Even if you only have to do it once to activate the recipe and there is a button for "create all" or a numerical value you can input, why have the window/slot mechanic at all. Just let the player have the materials in their bag, choose a recipe and hit a button.
Complexity is great, crafting needs to be complex. But the interface needs to be as simple as possible, build the complexity into the materials available and the recipes, don't build it into the actual minutae of the crafting interface because that will lead only to dissatisfaction.
Of course it is all very early and maybe the system was poorly explained but as it stands it seems like gathering will be great, but a lot of people simply wont bother with crafting until a website comes out a few months after release listing all the known patterns and how to achieve them. Then this discovery mechanic will simply be a slightly frustrating hurdle overcome by third party information - is this really how Anet wants to progress. Surely games these days should be thinking of how they can keep the players in game rather than alt-tabbed to the internet looking for information on the game they are supposed to be playing.
Yea, EQ2 has that, dont even have to have the item in your inventory anymore. If you have a harvest depot, just comes out of that. Do we dare mention that EQ2 mode of crafting is just spamming 3 -6 buttons while the bars move ??
I actually prefer the discovery method, makes me think that im actually doing something. Or even a crafting system like Vanguard, where you had a set amount of points to use ( trust me, it got better as you got higher levels and better gear)
The crafting side isn't a huge step up at all. Like in GW1, there's nothing there.
But it's not a huge step down, either. Plenty of games have lots of grinding in the crafting system, and nothing else.
WoW's crafting system, for example, is just a bunch of grinding. If you want to compare GW2 to that, then consider that ArenaNet removed the grinding. There's nothing left after removing the grinding, but that's still a big upgrade over having to grind a lot.
Game Designer Andrew McLeod has some additional information to provide about the crafting philosophy, so here are the details:
Many people have had misconceptions in regards to how the discovery system will work. You will not need to find the recipe for an item before you can discover how to make an item, and experimenting with different materials will not consume the materials that you’re testing with. If you put in the correct materials to craft a discoverable recipe, you can craft the item and discover the recipe. The level of crafting skill you have in that discipline does restrict what you can discover - if you just learned how to craft weapons, you can’t immediately create legendary swords - you need to hone your skills by making more mundane swords first. However, you shouldn’t have to make twenty bronze swords before you can learn to make an iron one.
There... did that clear up any misconceptions or are you still gonna QQ about a perfectly sound crafting system? I think ArenaNet are already aware of what was flawed in WAR's crafting system and have found a way to work around that.
Nope, didn't clear up anything seeing as I had already read the links posted earlier in the thread. Warhammers system was much worse, incorporating item consumption and failed crafts, but the basis of the discovery system is the same. Trial and error and wasted time that will be circumvented by a wiki somewhere.
I still find it hard to believe that a game designer is happy to have players alt-tabbing out of their game to locate third party information because the game was designed with a frustrating system. Discovery in the sense they discuss is not going to be fun or rewarding for the vast majority of people.
We all know people will move through the path of least resistance. Why not factor this into game design instead of just saying, "well people will do it anyway so we are just gonna do what we wanna do" (which is basically what was stated in another blog post).
My post was not a QQ, it was an opinion. I have never been much of a crafter in any MMO, more of a gatherer. This has generally been caused by the crafting systems being boring and/or frustratingly designed. It seems that GW2 won't be much different but it lets me spend more time on other aspects of the game. It just seems a shame that a company that seems to be doing everything else right seems to have designed a system that appears not to fit with the rest of their design ideology.
Just a shame that here was yet another chance for a crafting system to be engaging and yet another chance where it seems not to be the case. It remains to be seen however, and more explanation, maybe a video of crafting in action, but with the explanations we have it sounds a bit naff.
I don't quite understand your approach to my post, unless you had a hand in designing the system itself. I really don't understand why people take other's opinions so personally these days.
Since the main event seems to always be gw2 vs tor, id have to give a point to tor in regards to both game's crafting systems. Crafting is a major part of mmorpgs for me and unfortunately, anet did not deliver on the same level as bioware. Id like to see more info obviously, but from what we know so far, gw2's crafting system seems underwhelming to say the least.
The content that anet is shiping in gw2 w/out month fee is pret solid compared to others mmos
This "excuse" if you want to call it is unsettling to me. Id rather pay anet 15 bucks a month if that meant a more robust crafting system. But we know this really isnt the issue. Plunking in random materials and "discover" what happens is not crafting. Its guessing and rng. The drawback is that after 2 months tops, the "mystery" will be gone and every item will have its ingredients online. So what are you left with? Basically just another drag n drop crafting system with node farming for materials.
And whats even more disheartening is that you can drop crafting professions and max out everything, then for a fee, just pick up your old max level professions. This eliminates any player economy or interdependency. I really hope they look into that aspect.
No where did it say that this system was set in stone, I'm pretty sure that the dev's are watching these forums and getting ideas from us. So, until they actually ship the game and call it done, anything and everything is subject to change.
I say we give them time, and keep giving them POSITIVE idea's. Anet sounds like a company that will listen to our ideas on these forums, instead of other companys that ignore the player base.
Nope. The crafting system isn't rng based. If you have a recipe you either get it right or get a little bonus of more crafting exp and/or some of your mats back. It also shouldn't require very much guessing either. Logic works perfectly well when you are trying to make something as simple as a sword.
What "excuse" are you talking about? Paying 15 bucks a month doesn't guarantee you anything except that you pay more. Seeing as the crafting system is already in place, paying 15 bucks won't do anything to make that system any better or more complex.
I really don't see how this can be seen as a con. They could have just as easily implemented it so that you have to restart that profession completely, and guess what that means, GRIND!!! Anet are, above all, anti-grief and anti-grind.
I agree with this point here about interdependency. I think that being able to switch crafting professions within the same character is a bad move honestly. Having someone on your server that it known for having access to the best and most abundant amount of armor, weapons, or whatever makes for a better business for that crafter. This is really the only thing I don't like about it so far, which in the whole scheme of things is pretty minor.
Yeah, I agree that "it cost you less" suck as an argument.
The problem is just which crafting system that actually is better?
Rift? I think not, it is even more simplistic and boring. Everquest 2? Hardly. EQ2s crafting system is extremely grindy and you have to do the same rather boring minigame for ever to max out the skill, And you produce an amount of vendortrash that is unimaginable unless you are a provisioner. Vanguards? Well, in some aspects but it is still rather grindy.
There is actually only one system around I can think of that really is better. So enjoy yourself in APB.
The thing is that MMO crafting usually sucks badly. I have only 2 requirements for a good crafting system:
1. You design the item yourself, like in NWN Aurora toolset.
2. Little or no grind.
That is not too much to ask for. Or it seems like it is. ANET fix problem number 2 here, I believe most crafters will get a custom interface or get a list so they don't have to grind it but the customization thing is none existant anyways.
And yes, I did not mention old SWG since the system only existed for a short time and I never had the chance to try it out. And Wurms, never played it and don't know enough about the game to comment it.
But crafting is the part where MMOs really can improve. Making "funny" minigames don't cut it, it aint so funny after 500 crafted items.
Hm, ok. From what I read it seems like you put different ingredients in varying orders to yield different items. That is how you discover recipes. So im not sure how you came up with having a recipe first and getting it right. Not even sure what you mean by that actually, heh. The "excuse" I was referring to was from luizresende's reply. I was basically saying I felt the crafting system was lacking and he basically said it was ok to be that way because you arent paying a monthly fee. The point isnt to grind out every profession nor is it to eliminate grinding out every profession. The actual point is that in a balanced crafting system/economy you dont have the option to be 100% self sufficient. You may have to *gasp* trade and work with others just like all the other pve content.I dunno, maybe anet needs to ease up on the anti griefing mentality and stop assuming the worst in its target audience. Not everyone is going to exploit everything and grief other players. The solution is not to simply get rid of gameplay features that would put you in a situation where you may need another player's cooperation. This extends far beyond combat. Its the core of what mmorpgs are about: working together to achieve goals.
If they can, someone will grief you and the solution is to take away even the possibility.
I don't trust people and you shouldn't either. If you have no rules, no regulation, expect the worst.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky