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Battlegrounds has destroyed MMORPG PvP.
depain
Member Posts: 263
Battlegrounds: Instanced 5v5 or so objective based PvP, e.g., Capture the Flag, Team Deathmatch, Take the Hill, etc.
WHY DO PEOPLE ENJOY THIS?
#1. In BGs, there is NO element of surprise. Eveyrone is buffed up and expecting combat.
#2. In BGs, tactics are learned within a month. The scenario becomes a rinse/repeat cycle.
#3. In BGs, there are a limited number of maps. Everyone quickly learns every blade of grass, every hill, every tree, every typical hiding spot.
#4. In BGs, everything is redundant. Been there, done that... a thousand times.
Am I simply asking for World PvP? No. I'm asking for some creation depth - something outside the box. Battlegrounds/Arenas are so typical - so boring. It's seriously time for something new.
Comments
I wouldn't say 'destroyed' as Wintergrasp/Tol Borad is a huge success in WoW.
WG actually had to become a 'BG like' since it was way too popular.
World PVP was rejected by the playerbase back in BC days when no one did the world PVP objectives.
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At least battlegrounds help to alleviate lower levels being slaughtered by higher levels. Unless you can get developers off thier lazy asses and produce a lower level buff system that actually makes them competitive with their higher level counterparts, you're going to see most people sticking with battlegrounds for a better fighting chance.
I prefer open world PvP when I do participate, but I'm sick to death of toons barely 5 levels higher than me doing twice the damage and taking half as much on top of having more advanced abilities. If you think that kind of level difference should have that much of an advantage, then the developers need to stop thowing cannon fodder to you guys by allowing a 5 to 10 level spread in the area or instance to begin with. You should be forced to fight against players who have the tools at least to fight back.
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A lot of people actually like BG's, it caters to their need for basically rewards and instant gratification, but I agree with the OP, for me it has made PvP completely uninteresting, if not flat out boring.
I"m going to offer something else.
I don't think it's Battlegrounds that have destroyed mmorpg pvp but bad players.
Though I personally don't mind being griefed or ganked on occasion I've seen players being griefed constantly by marauding bands of players "many to one".
Now that in and of itself isn't a big deal. But then you get the marauding players taking out the one guy soloing and then insulting him.
I've also experienced being pk'ed, accepting it as part of the game (no big deal) and then taking out my pk'er later on and having him bitch and cry and complain and essentially not taking it in stride.
So in short bad players have forced companies to create even teams of consensual pvp.
This is not to say I haven't had a blast in those pvp scenarios (warhammer) but it is different than world pvp.
Heck, I had to laugh one time as i was on the Lineage 2 beta server testing a class I had never played before. I was partied with one other player. A full party came along and one guy said "fight or die" (along with some other expletives) and then they just pk'ed us. No real chance was ever possible.
Did it bother me? No. more funny than anything else. But coming up to players on a beta server en masse, insulting them and pk'ing them is not going to win less patient people to the "world pvp" cause.
So hence your "battlegrounds".
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I agree. Battlegrounds in DAOC was done pretty well (though the system as a whole was still a grind), but the way WoW (and all would-be copycats) have done it kills the spirit of PvP. It is unfortunate, but it was turned it into just another grind, just another time sink so people will pay for another month. PvP at its roots was a risk vs reward system, you vs another thinking player. The excitement comes from the risk and potential reward. When the reward is 2 more points and the risk is a 2 minute walk the excitement is lost. Also the objective is set up in such a way that the PvP is secondary, and even victory/loss is lessened since you are just gonna queu up for another BG..
Battlegrounds have reduced the barrier to entry, made it more enjoyable to a much wider range of players and increased the fairness of the combat experience.
What exactly is your definition of 'destroyed'?
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OP, do yourself a favour and pick up Darkfall. It is the answer you have been looking for. You can thank me later.
PS: I also think that battlegrounds have ruined MMO's so therefore I do not buy MMO's that have them. Vote with your wallet.
Well, let's be fair, I can see their point.
The creation of battlegrounds and structured PvP draws a lot of people to it.
That means that most of the people left behind to do open world PvP seem to have killing other people unfairly as their #1 priority, since it's not something you can do as handily in balanced matches.
There's plenty of legitimate reasons to like open world PvP, but they must kind of feel like somebody who is a big fan of a certain kind of movie, and discover that most of the people who watch that genre with them are very loud screen talkers who don't bathe often enough.
Even if it's a really awesome movie, the company they're forced to keep to enjoy it is rather subpar.
Darn you more popular, easier to get into movies, for attracting all the normal people and leaving mostly crazies behind!
@OP, you ask about battlegrounds and then out of nowhere you throw in arenas as well in the same category as battelgrounds.
If you are asking about battelgrounds, I like them. However, I love arenas. You seem also to have a wrong definition of battleground. 5v5 is not battleground, it's an arena.
For me arenas are exciting and thrilling as mistakes are punished severely. You lose points in the ranking system. One mistake can cost you the match. It's fast paced, interesting and hopefully strategic.
Open world PvP is boring. You spend so much time looking for players... ZZzzz...what are the chances of encountering a player which is:
a) equal level to you
b) has similar gear
c) has similar skill
Well, chances are pretty slim.
I have also seen people gank a player over and over again. I remember this chap. I think he was a level 40 lock in Tanaris. There is one dude who was camping the area around his corpse and another couple of fellas guarding the graveyards. They were all level 70s lol ^_^
So this chap was asking for help in the general chat. It was quite pathetic to see 4 level 70s spending all of their time griefing this player. What is he supposed to do? He can't play at all. So he just needs to hope that someone will help him. Well, I went in wiht my resto dr00d and distracted them till he can get out of there.
But this shows how pathetic world pvp can be.
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Battle grounds have made PVP into a hunt in a game farm there is no more thrill of the hunt or chase, it has givien the players a "even" fight they want so it's a sport like foot ball or base ball or hockey, every one is packed into a small space to figtht it out and one side wins big fun for some.
just not fun for me and others that want to have VIRTUAL WORLDS to live in and not a theme park to spend time in.
it depands how they design the battlegroundl, some are dead boring. i dont want to metion name, but you guys should know already.
hint: the lastest one.
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Actually, world PvP crashed the WoW servers on a regular basis. WoW couldn't handle the entire population of the server in one city at the same time. People didn't reject world PvP so much as they couldn't engage in world PvP at the scale they wanted. Battlegrounds were the alternative that worked.
I think battleground style PvP serves a purpose, and to a point, I like it. Maybe it's the objectives that make it seem fairly meaningless. For the most part, you're in the battleground area for your own benefit. It doesn't benefit your faction or your guild, just you. If done right, it eliminates the disparities in population that can occur between factions or guilds, so that you can fight on an even playing field, which is good. I think something that enhances the benefits to your "team", while at the same time balancing things between "teams" is what's needed.
For instance, have an open RvR area, along with a series of battlegrounds in which the victories benefit the teams fighting in the open RvR area. You still have issues with population balance in the open RvR area, but there should be ways to address that (better than WoW's 'Tenacity' buff).
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I agree. In MMORPGs where you could have huge level gaps I've usually dispised PvP in all its unbalanced glory? Uhm so BGs make the PvP passible when there isn't such a large range of avatar strength. But if I were to be on a PvP server I'd probably join a very skilled moderate sized guild and end up steam rolling everyone so even in that case an option to occastionally do BGs would still be nice. Only issue I see here is that players on PvP servers could choose to only do BGs to level to cap which hurts the world PvP activity.
I still remember pre-battlegrounds WoW city raids. Those fights were so epic. It was just mindless zerging but it was fun. However, servers couldn't take it and they went down for hours on end. I guess that was the reason they introduced battlegrounds.
I have also participated in several Orgrimmar raids in TBC and one real epic fight in Wotlk. I still remember all the portals around and hordes pouring in from wherever their portal chamber was
However, we did manage to hold the Valley of Honour(?) where there is only 1 tunnel and horde couldn't get through for quite some time without getting AOE spammed 
It was fun cause this time the servers did manage to stay up and you didn't have dishonourable kills 
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Are we talking about BG's in WoW, or in MMO's in particular? I have always hated the BG's in WoW, and thought it was a shame DAoC couldn't keep its player base around as they had a much better concept for "consensual" PvP play. The way I see it, you have three different ways of implementing PvP: FFA PvP (UO, Shadowbane, DFO, Eve), which may or may not have full/partial loot, Consensual PvP (SWG, WoW, DAoC, War), where you usually don't have any loot (from defeated players), and can be implemented separate from how much of a sandbox or themepark the game is, and PvE (EQ). The BG's where WoW's plan to give players a place to fight one another, but IMO it made the "combat" feel more like a pro sporting event, not WAR. In DAoC, the frontiers pitted your realm against another realm and the benefits for winning went to the realm, not the individual player. It made for a tighter knit community within each realm, gave good incentive to go to the frontiers, and more varied combat (sieges, defending against besiegers, ambushes, etc).
I know I can't get an updated version of DAoC, but could we at least get Devs to start looking past the two main options for PvP we have now? Right now, they seem to say either FFA PvP, or tacking on battlegrounds to what is essentially a PvE game. There are other ways to handle PvP, and I would love to see Devs start to explore those.
I wouldn't say destroyed. But I wish more MMO's would have DAOC style PvP. 3 sides, in an open war. Not all this instanced stuff.
I've recently quit playing WOW (again) because the PvP system is most unsatisfying.
Person like me who would have never considered PvP only did it because of bgs so I am sure there are others like me who enjoy PvP thanks to bgs. I cannot agree with your point of view.
There are open PvP servers so what exactly is your problem that games cater to other taste too or must they do it to the exclusion of other taste only have what you like. That does not make money for games.
A lot of players like myself dont find any enjoyment of being ganked while questing. An actual battle sure but thats not what usually happens. Most of the time in open world pvp someone sneaks up on you and youre dead before you know it. That has nothing to do with "skill" its simply you battling a mob and someone coming from behind and finishing you off.
Battlegrounds put people together for actual team play pvp. Real battles, not the nonsense that most open world pvp is.
Im not against open world pvp and you can think of me as a carebear i really dont care, but battlegrounds have certainly not ruined pvp. Its more enticing to players that want to pvp but not be ganked.
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The problem with Battlegrounds is that gave something for Developers to focus on and convince themselves that it was all they needed to do for PvP in thier game.
BGs are fun they have their place in MMOs, they certainly don't offer the hardcore PvP risk / reward that many players are looking for but the offer a brief glimpse inot PvP for many players that would otherwise never try it.
Developer just need to give some love to Open world PvP, using WoW for a bad example...
Everything in the game is a gear grind, so they need to add one for Open world PvP. A decent PvP Gear set that is tied to Open world kills or enemy city based objectives.
Why do people enjoy it?
Because more people seem to like skill-centric real PVP than zerg-centric world PVP.
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Battlegrounds are fine, they offer something to do when you're bored of the samo samo PvE. Unfortunately instanced BG's the way WoW and newer games have it, they too soon become the samo samo rinse & repeat. Someone mentioned DAOC's BG's, now THAT is the type of battlegrounds I like. Persistent battlegrounds, seperated by level range so everybody has a chance at it. People could stay in DAOC's BG's for as long as they want to, as long as they didn't outlevel the place. There is no beginning & end, it was persistent fun.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned how players rejected BC's world objectives. I mean are you kidding me? WoW's BC world objectives were....PvP-lite at the most, they were barely anything fun to participate in, and the gear you could get from them sucked. The only reason people grind BG's over and over and over and over...and over right now is because they could get sweet gear upgrades. People aren't flooding into BG's now because they have fun doing it. Let's not confused the two. BC's world objectives had 2 flaws. First, they were not fun, they were no brainer objectives. Secondly, gear sucked so without that incentive, people most definitely did not want to participate in something that isn't fun.
World PvP works if done right, persistent BG's work if done right. It's amazing to see a game released back in 2001 (DAOC) do just about all of it right, with a very well balanced blend of world PvP and persistent BG's, as well as PvE. They weren't perfect, but they did it right and people did participate in the BG's as well as world RvR/siege.
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Have to disagree with TC.
I do have a different take on the whole battlegrounds and why it destroyed pvp for me.
The several servers in one battlegroup that wow introduced.
Battlegrounds currently feels like it has no meaning. Joining every game with total strangers on the friendly and enemy side.
While before, when we had just the people on 1 server compete against and with each other you learned to know the other pvpers on the server. Made friends and knew who you could rely on.
I even knew several people that stood out on the enemy side either, because they kept beating us or because they where almost as good at us and became infamous and a bit of our laughing stock.
That is all long gone by now in wow.
Why i do like something like battlegrounds? even numbers against each other and objectives is also fun.
One thing I would like to see changed in similar future BG in games is to have seperate pve and pvp gear for BG.
As in you can not bring gear earned outside BG into the BG. Maybe start with a bag of starter pvp gear you buy at the BG vendor.
This to prevent beeing forced to pve to compete in pvp.
I bet we can all remember the times preteams that constantly pvp that get wiped from BG by a group of hardcore pve raiders with far superior gear just because of their gear.
Instanced team pvp games are of zero interest to me. Persistent 24/7 faction conflict is what I love(DAOC is my all time favorite).
Instanced team pvp has its place for me ,but i agree not in a persistent world mmo. ie. bloodline champions, guild wars.
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Instanced pvp scenarios didnt destroy anything. They are just another option for pvp. If you want to blame the fall of world pvp, blame it on devs that offer zero incentive to interact with the worlds they create. You cant change anything in their games so why bother trying to defend or overtake an enemy town? I think this is where themeparks fail as mmos. Players cannot create persistent content in a themepark.