Garvon, are you playing Darkfall or EVE Online? Sounds like they would be right up your alley (unless you aren't a pvp fan).
Yes indeed. But it's a quite sad day when the only 2 MMOs steadily growing/innovating in the genre are from indie companies from island nations. I am playing Darkfall, but the game can only do so much with 30 staff members. I'd prefer a Dark Age of Camelot 2.
Garvon, are you playing Darkfall or EVE Online? Sounds like they would be right up your alley (unless you aren't a pvp fan).
Yes indeed. But it's a quite sad day when the only 2 MMOs steadily growing/innovating in the genre are from indie companies from island nations. I am playing Darkfall, but the game can only do so much with 30 staff members. I'd prefer a Dark Age of Camelot 2.
Good luck with that. They don't sell as well as they used to for a reason, people got bored with all the 'immersive world' stuff. There is simply a larger market in the themepark business. I don't mind a little travel time. But if I was forced to walk/ride/fly all over the place I would be fed up and probably stop playing, not everybody has the time to wait to get places. 15 min is a bit much for me, 5 min travel time seems about right to an area I've allready been through. 15 is really pushing that time premium.
Garvon, are you playing Darkfall or EVE Online? Sounds like they would be right up your alley (unless you aren't a pvp fan).
Yes indeed. But it's a quite sad day when the only 2 MMOs steadily growing/innovating in the genre are from indie companies from island nations. I am playing Darkfall, but the game can only do so much with 30 staff members. I'd prefer a Dark Age of Camelot 2.
Good luck with that. They don't sell as well as they used to for a reason actually, they probably sell better than they used to, Vanguard's launch is a prime example of that, sold TONS of copies, people got bored with all the 'immersive world' stuff. Er, we did? I don't remember getting bored with it. I remember a bunch of non gamers joining the genre that never played old MMOs who never tried that "boring" stuff, but I don't remember getting bored of it myself. There is simply a larger market in the themepark business. And a larger market in Mcdonalds too, and a larger market in Justin Bieber... but if this is the case, why have almost all WoW clones failed? Why is Darkfall and Eve among two of the ONLY growing MMOs on the market? I don't mind a little travel time. But if I was forced to walk/ride/fly all over the place I would be fed up and probably stop playing, not everybody has the time to wait to get places. 15 min is a bit much for me, 5 min travel time seems about right to an area I've allready been through. 15 is really pushing that time premium .
If the game was designed with travel time in mind, you wouldn't mind so much. Same thing with instances. Take instances out of WoW and it falls apart, design a game without instances and you'll never need them.
Garvon, are you playing Darkfall or EVE Online? Sounds like they would be right up your alley (unless you aren't a pvp fan).
Yes indeed. But it's a quite sad day when the only 2 MMOs steadily growing/innovating in the genre are from indie companies from island nations. I am playing Darkfall, but the game can only do so much with 30 staff members. I'd prefer a Dark Age of Camelot 2.
Good luck with that. They don't sell as well as they used to for a reason actually, they probably sell better than they used to, Vanguard's launch is a prime example of that, sold TONS of copies, people got bored with all the 'immersive world' stuff. Er, we did? I don't remember getting bored with it. I remember a bunch of non gamers joining the genre that never played old MMOs who never tried that "boring" stuff, but I don't remember getting bored of it myself. There is simply a larger market in the themepark business. And a larger market in Mcdonalds too, and a larger market in Justin Bieber... but if this is the case, why have almost all WoW clones failed? Why is Darkfall and Eve among two of the ONLY growing MMOs on the market? I don't mind a little travel time. But if I was forced to walk/ride/fly all over the place I would be fed up and probably stop playing, not everybody has the time to wait to get places. 15 min is a bit much for me, 5 min travel time seems about right to an area I've allready been through. 15 is really pushing that time premium .
If the game was designed with travel time in mind, you wouldn't mind so much. Same thing with instances. Take instances out of WoW and it falls apart, design a game without instances and you'll never need them.
Different folks different strokes. As you can tell by what games are the most successful, you and the other people who like the long travel times and harsh death penalties etc. are the minority.
Beggers can't be choosers. If you don't like any of the games that are coming out soon then either find one of the older games you do like or make one yourself.
Garvon, are you playing Darkfall or EVE Online? Sounds like they would be right up your alley (unless you aren't a pvp fan).
Yes indeed. But it's a quite sad day when the only 2 MMOs steadily growing/innovating in the genre are from indie companies from island nations. I am playing Darkfall, but the game can only do so much with 30 staff members. I'd prefer a Dark Age of Camelot 2.
Good luck with that. They don't sell as well as they used to for a reason actually, they probably sell better than they used to, Vanguard's launch is a prime example of that, sold TONS of copies, people got bored with all the 'immersive world' stuff. Er, we did? I don't remember getting bored with it. I remember a bunch of non gamers joining the genre that never played old MMOs who never tried that "boring" stuff, but I don't remember getting bored of it myself. There is simply a larger market in the themepark business. And a larger market in Mcdonalds too, and a larger market in Justin Bieber... but if this is the case, why have almost all WoW clones failed? Why is Darkfall and Eve among two of the ONLY growing MMOs on the market? I don't mind a little travel time. But if I was forced to walk/ride/fly all over the place I would be fed up and probably stop playing, not everybody has the time to wait to get places. 15 min is a bit much for me, 5 min travel time seems about right to an area I've allready been through. 15 is really pushing that time premium .
If the game was designed with travel time in mind, you wouldn't mind so much. Same thing with instances. Take instances out of WoW and it falls apart, design a game without instances and you'll never need them.
Different folks different strokes. As you can tell by what games are the most successful, you and the other people who like the long travel times and harsh death penalties etc. are the minority.
Beggers can't be choosers. If you don't like any of the games that are coming out soon then either find one of the older games you do like or make one yourself.
The older games are gone or I, and the million other oldschool MMOers, would be contentedly playing them. And nobody said anything about harsh death penalties. That's you projecting your conception of "all old MMOs were EQ" again.
Two or three minutes? Maybe not so bad. Twenty, twenty-five minutes... different story. I've had travels in WoW take that long. Travel to a flight path. Fly to a major hub city. Take the portal to another hub. Travel to the flight point. Fly to the destination flight point. Travel to where your friends are.
Is sucks.
You need to remember GW2 is more about the community than it is any one individuals idea of immersion. What brings us together faster, working together more efficiently. What makes us reach out to and enjoy seeing others in the open world. If I'm out gathering and a new event spawns, how can I share that experience more quickly with others? The event won't wait for them to travel... it's happening now.
We older players remember when travelling took hours. It actually had some advantages but it demands that the players have a lot of spare time.
People with work and family can't really spend that time.
Still, one server without teleportation would solve the entire problem and should be easy to fix, even if I have a feeling ANET wont go for it.
Even though I usually have time to spare, the last thing I want to do is waste it on stupid things like travel times and artificial time sinks. When I log into a game, I expect to play, not twiddle my thumbs up my ass for 15 minutes. My time is precious, no matter whether I'm spending it on entertainment or doing something serious.
I started with EQ back in 1999, when they had those stupid ships and hour long runs from Qeynos to Freeport. I was not amused by either and I certainly don't remember people being social on those boat rides. Most people went AFK or ignored you for guild chat. They didn't get rid of those things without reason and for the most part, everyone was happy with the PoK books.
Garvon, are you playing Darkfall or EVE Online? Sounds like they would be right up your alley (unless you aren't a pvp fan).
Yes indeed. But it's a quite sad day when the only 2 MMOs steadily growing/innovating in the genre are from indie companies from island nations. I am playing Darkfall, but the game can only do so much with 30 staff members. I'd prefer a Dark Age of Camelot 2.
Well I agree that there should be more sandboxish mmos out there but the reality is that they don't appear to sell well. I do think GW2 has sandbox elements but it certainly isn't a full game such as what you want. Still I wish you good luck in finding your mmo.
Garvon, are you playing Darkfall or EVE Online? Sounds like they would be right up your alley (unless you aren't a pvp fan).
Yes indeed. But it's a quite sad day when the only 2 MMOs steadily growing/innovating in the genre are from indie companies from island nations. I am playing Darkfall, but the game can only do so much with 30 staff members. I'd prefer a Dark Age of Camelot 2.
Good luck with that. They don't sell as well as they used to for a reason actually, they probably sell better than they used to, Vanguard's launch is a prime example of that, sold TONS of copies, people got bored with all the 'immersive world' stuff. Er, we did? I don't remember getting bored with it. I remember a bunch of non gamers joining the genre that never played old MMOs who never tried that "boring" stuff, but I don't remember getting bored of it myself. There is simply a larger market in the themepark business. And a larger market in Mcdonalds too, and a larger market in Justin Bieber... but if this is the case, why have almost all WoW clones failed? Why is Darkfall and Eve among two of the ONLY growing MMOs on the market? I don't mind a little travel time. But if I was forced to walk/ride/fly all over the place I would be fed up and probably stop playing, not everybody has the time to wait to get places. 15 min is a bit much for me, 5 min travel time seems about right to an area I've allready been through. 15 is really pushing that time premium .
If the game was designed with travel time in mind, you wouldn't mind so much. Same thing with instances. Take instances out of WoW and it falls apart, design a game without instances and you'll never need them.
It's foolish to ignore something like instancing or phasing. Both are tools to be used, and if used right can create great experiences.. The reason why other MMOs aren't garnering the size of WoW is because the market is tapped. It's much easier to get people in an untapped market than a tapped one. People make the themeparks because they want a piece of the 12million subscriber pie. Darkfall and EvE can grow because their market isn't entirely or largely tapped by one large competitor. That market is still smaller than the other one. I have no problem with these games, I just don't find them engaging. So, I don't want GW2 to be like that. That really isn't the style of game they seem to be going for either. It's a casual friendly game thus far, and travel times are far from casual friendly.
Also, I fail to see how you can make travel entertaining. Oblivion I didn't quick travel a ton as a mage because it gave me a chance to boringly cast spells to get xp in them. Pressing R and aiming at the horizon just isn't interesting to me.
I feel sorry for people for who traveling a few minutes is even too much, or who think that if they missed an event because of those few minutes, then that's all the fun they could have had of hours of gameplay in their evening. Imagine that, if they'd logged on 10 minutes later they would've missed the event too and had to listen to their friends' tales and the fun they had never to be experienced again, the horror!
Shrug. To each their own, I guess, instant-gratification ftw.
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick
Originally posted by Garvon3
And it doesn't really make sense for an event to go off and have 100 players just drop in from the sky on it, does it? Kind of ruins the point.
It's themepark mindset at its extreme end, where you consider an MMORPG not even in the slightest as a fully functional gameworld but purely as a game, and just as in themeparks the rollercoaster is only a few steps from the haunted house and the merry-go-round.
Originally posted by Garvon3
We're not whining or trying to change the game, we're answering the question that the OP put to this thread by MAKING this thread.
Generally, for those who started playing in the MMO Golden Age, those who played for the social virtual worlds, we don't mind travel, because it adds weight to almost all actions in the game world.
For those who started playing MMOs when they became Diablo with a monthly fee, they don't really care about a game world, and they just want more pixels or whatever, and see an MMO as only a game, screw immersion.
Originally posted by Garvon3
Er, why? Most people agree 1998-2003 was the MMO Golden Age, you had massive amounts of innovation, a large number of different game styles, all thriving and successful, communities hadn't gone to hell yet, and new ideas were being pumped out. You can't, with a straight face, claim any MMOs in the last few years were as feature rich or innovative as AC, DAoC, EQ, UO, or SWG.
OK I got a question for you guys! You both relate teleporting to waypoints like GW2 has to a theme park and instant gratification. Then Garvon3 goes on to say that GW2 is not a virtual world because of the teleporting and that the golden age of MMOs was with AC, DAoC, EQ, UO, and SWG. Well my question is; are you guys ignoring what the OP said in his original post? If you guys go take a look at what he said he talks about the fact that you can buy runes in UO that made it so you could teleport to anywhere you have been in the game. So for a fee you could buy the runes and teleport around like a mage on speed, just for the fun of it. I wonder what other game has a system like this. Here is a link to UOs rune system.
Let’s see in GW2 you can only teleport to waypoints that you find, well that sounds eerily like UO where you could set a rune to any place you have been. In GW2 it cost money to use a waypoint, this is getting freaky guys that sounds eerily like UO again, in UO you had to buy runes and Rune Books. OH my God, UO was not a sandbox it was a theme park it allows teleportation to everywhere with a cost. UO was all about instant gratification and the rollercoaster rides, haunted house, and merry-go-round.
So guys what happened to your golden age, UO betrayed you it was Guild Wars 2 a decade before Anet created it. OH no the horror UO had teleportation runes, it completely ruined my immersion, all those idiot kids marking locations everywhere and just teleporting. What ever happened to just walking everywhere, God you spoiled instant gratification wimps. Also why do you people need mounts it total ruins my immersion, in real life only the top 10% had the money to afford a horse and to learn how to ride it. I demand a virtual world, mounts should be worth 10 million gold so only the top 10% will ever get to use them, you people ruin my immersion not everyone should be riding mounts! I want my virtual world. Dang UO for having runes and other forms of transportation, people should be walking everywhere, just like roman soldiers. Dang you UO, dang you to hell! sarcasm off
I miss the option 'in favor, if available sparsely'.
Teleporting from one city to another or other hotspot locations you discover like in GW, I've no problem with it. However, the enormous abundance of teleport locations as seen in the demo where a teleport spot was there with only 10-20s running distance between them, that I find extreme.
So I'm hoping that was only for the demo.
I agree with said person.
I'm perfectly fine with being able to teleport OUT of anywhere, but you should not be able to teleport just about anywhere. I want mounts added, and I think you should have to use your mount to get to places not near big cities/big hotspot.
It just seems silly to be porting 30 feet because it's "easier on players"....
I feel sorry for people for who traveling a few minutes is even too much, or who think that if they missed an event because of those few minutes, then that's all the fun they could have had of hours of gameplay in their evening. Imagine that, if they'd logged on 10 minutes later they would've missed the event too and had to listen to their friends' tales and the fun they had never to be experienced again, the horror!
Shrug. To each their own, I guess, instant-gratification ftw.
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick
Originally posted by Garvon3
And it doesn't really make sense for an event to go off and have 100 players just drop in from the sky on it, does it? Kind of ruins the point.
It's themepark mindset at its extreme end, where you consider an MMORPG not even in the slightest as a fully functional gameworld but purely as a game, and just as in themeparks the rollercoaster is only a few steps from the haunted house and the merry-go-round.
Originally posted by Garvon3
We're not whining or trying to change the game, we're answering the question that the OP put to this thread by MAKING this thread.
Generally, for those who started playing in the MMO Golden Age, those who played for the social virtual worlds, we don't mind travel, because it adds weight to almost all actions in the game world.
For those who started playing MMOs when they became Diablo with a monthly fee, they don't really care about a game world, and they just want more pixels or whatever, and see an MMO as only a game, screw immersion.
Originally posted by Garvon3
Er, why? Most people agree 1998-2003 was the MMO Golden Age, you had massive amounts of innovation, a large number of different game styles, all thriving and successful, communities hadn't gone to hell yet, and new ideas were being pumped out. You can't, with a straight face, claim any MMOs in the last few years were as feature rich or innovative as AC, DAoC, EQ, UO, or SWG.
OK I got a question for you guys! You both relate teleporting to waypoints like GW2 has to a theme park and instant gratification. Then Garvon3 goes on to say that GW2 is not a virtual world because of the teleporting and that the golden age of MMOs was with AC, DAoC, EQ, UO, and SWG. Well my question is; are you guys ignoring what the OP said in his original post? If you guys go take a look at what he said he talks about the fact that you can buy runes in UO that made it so you could teleport to anywhere you have been in the game. So for a fee you could buy the runes and teleport around like a mage on speed, just for the fun of it. I wonder what other game has a system like this. Here is a link to UOs rune system.
Let’s see in GW2 you can only teleport to waypoints that you find, well that sounds eerily like UO where you could set a rune to any place you have been. In GW2 it cost money to use a waypoint, this is getting freaky guys that sounds eerily like UO again, in UO you had to buy runes and Rune Books. OH my God, UO was not a sandbox it was a theme park it allows teleportation to everywhere with a cost. UO then was all about instant gratification and the rollercoaster rides, haunted house, and merry-go-round.
So guys what happened to your golden age, UO betrayed you it was Guild Wars 2 a decade before Anet created it. OH no the horror UO had teleportation runes, it completely ruined my immersion, all those idiot kids marking locations everywhere and just teleporting. What ever happened to just walking everywhere, God you spoiled instant gratification whips. Also why do you people need mounts it total ruins my immersion, in real life only the top 10% had the money to afford a horse and to learn how to ride it. I demand a virtual world, mounts should be worth 10 million gold so only the top 10% will ever get to use them, you people ruin my immersion not everyone should be riding mounts! I want my virtual world. Dang UO for having runes and other forms of transportation, people should be walking everywhere, just like roman soldiers. Dang you UO, dang you to hell! sarcasm off
Being a jerk doesn't exactly help someone make their argument, it only makes them look like a jerk who can't stand people disagreeing with their own viewpoint.
It's a pretty f*cked up situation if you have GW2 fans attacking other GW2 fans merely because they dislike those not sharing their opinion of having TP's everywhere around, nice going, guys, gj stifling any dissenting voices
I never played UO extensively, however I can't recall having teleport spots every 20 second walking distance as seen in the GW2 starter zone in the demos. EQ, DAoC and AC definitely didn't have them, and their worlds felt large. It is one of the elements that can make an MMORPG feel more than just a game and more like a world to me, UO had other features that make it feel more like a world. You have different styles of players, some who like their MMORPG to be purely a game and it doesn't need to have any 'large, immersive world' kind of feel, and then there are MMO gamers who like their games to have that large, immersive world kind of feel for added fun and enjoyment in the games they play.
Several features in an MMORPG can add to that immersive world feeling, and having a vast world to explore instead of a smallish one and having traveling mean something are two of those features that help in that.
I'm not going to repeat my comments upon the OP that I already posted several times in this thread alone. I'm in the camp of MMO gamers that's for teleportation being possible in moderation.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm not going to repeat my comments upon the OP that I already posted several times in this thread alone. I'm in the camp of MMO gamers that's for teleportation being possible in moderation.
Same. When teleportation makes a big world feel small, the dev has defeated the reason for having the big world in the first place
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
The reason players like teleportation in recent MMOs is because it's tedious to run through the same areas over and over again.
THAT is the core of the problem, not teleportation itself. If areas are boring to run through, then players would not want to run through them. I think GW2 is trying to address this problem by having dynamic events, making it worthwhile to trek through areas you've been through before, because you never know what new things might pop up.
Hence why having teleportation hubs between major cities is great, as you still need to venture into the countryside to discover the new events that are popping up.
Being a jerk doesn't exactly help someone make their argument, it only makes them look like a jerk who can't stand people disagreeing with their own viewpoint.
It's a pretty f*cked up situation if you have GW2 fans attacking other GW2 fans merely because they dislike those not sharing their opinion of having TP's everywhere around, nice going, guys, gj stifling any dissenting voices
I never played UO extensively, however I can't recall having teleport spots every 20 second walking distance as seen in the GW2 starter zone in the demos. EQ, DAoC and AC definitely didn't have them, and their worlds felt large. It is one of the elements that can make an MMORPG feel more than just a game and more like a world to me, UO had other features that make it feel more like a world. You have different styles of players, some who like their MMORPG to be purely a game and it doesn't need to have any 'large, immersive world' kind of feel, and then there are MMO gamers who like their games to have that large, immersive world kind of feel for added fun and enjoyment in the games they play.
Several features in an MMORPG can add to that immersive world feeling, and having a vast world to explore instead of a smallish one and having traveling mean something are two of those features that help in that.
I'm not going to repeat my comments upon the OP that I already posted several times in this thread alone. I'm in the camp of MMO gamers that's for teleportation being possible in moderation.
And you are fine to have that opinion, I never once in my post said you couldn’t have it. The only part I was sarcastically making fun of was the way you said it. Saying things like everyone that does not agree with you is all about instant gratification, and not about the experience does not help your point though. I do not want to be judge as an instant gratification kid just because I see merit to what ANet is doing! So lay off with the Jerk thing!
As for the runes I linked the information about them, so you can look it up.
Plus there are parts I agree with when you don’t make the opposite opinion sound demeaning with things like instant gratification phrases. I like large immersive worlds, and the fact that one of the developers said some of the larger zones it takes 15 minutes to walk across, gives me that hope. The only thing we have really seen in detail is the starter areas, so we do not know how the waypoint system is really going to be setup in those huge zones. I am sure ANet will listen to their fan base and if there are too many in those zones they will trim it down. For me I would be fine with just 3 in that huge zone. 1 in the middle and 2 at the ends, so you could get around when you needed too, otherwise I plan on walking and exploring the maps. I know they are going hide things to start DEs off the beaten path, that makes exploring and ignoring the waypoints its own reward. I guess when it comes down to it I do not care, I do not have to use waypoints, and I hope if they add mounts I will not need them either. I do not want to be forced to play either way; I want my character based on how I see it according to the lore of the world.
And with the miniature asura gate that was invited a few years before the game, I will not be surprised if I see someone just appear in front of me. I would just think ah what a marvelous or hated technology depending on my character, but it will not break my immersion because it is part of Tyria now. You can thank Snaff for that!
I think it's interesting people bring up theme parks. Does standing in line for an hour in order to go on a roller coaster increase your appreciation for the roller coaster? Or does it just make it so you can't go on as many rides as you'd like? Does anybody say, "that coaster was awesome because I waited so long for it?"
Hypothetical question... You can go to a theme park where you can get on any ride with no line, or you can go to a theme park where there's a 5 minute wait for every ride. Which do you go to?
I think having to travel can serve immersion by giving the player the scope of the world, but I think it serves no purpose after that's accomplished. If in GW2 you have to travel to a point before you can teleport to it, then the game is doing just that, providing immersion and then convenience.
In GW1, you have to travel to an outpost/mission and then once you've been there you can teleport to it freely thereafter. One of the things though is that it's not just a run through a zone or two, the way is filled with enemies and you'll have to do a lot of fighting to get there. If I have to go one and a half zones to do a quest, you can be sure I'm googling to find where the nearest outpost is, because I'd rather fight through another half zone to get there and have it unlocked than have to fight through those two entire zones later.
Right now I'm dividing my time between the Prophecies campaign and the Eye of the North expansion. I have a sense of the scope of the world because I know it would take FOREVER to run from one to another. I truly appreciate being able to teleport and do whichever content I feel like. Would a 5, 10 or 15 minute flight between the two areas increase my immersion? Or would it just be a pointless waste of time? Maybe things would be different if there were roads you could just travel on and enjoy the scenery, but I wouldn't even want to spend 5-10 extra minutes if I could only teleport to a central EotN hub and had to run to the outlying outposts, because I know that's 5-10 extra minutes on top of the 10-15 minutes I'm going to need to do any quest from whatever starting point anyway.
And that's just from a single player perspective. I haven't even touched on the idea of making up to four people wait for someone else. That's something I guarantee isn't increasing immersion.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Being a jerk doesn't exactly help someone make their argument, it only makes them look like a jerk who can't stand people disagreeing with their own viewpoint.
Yeah, which is why I was surprised to see you making fun of people for being instant gratification kiddies. Usually you're a lot classier than that.
I think I have a pretty complicated, nuanced feeling towards travel in MMOs in general... there's a lot of factors involved, and 'instant gratification' is hardly the only metric I use for measuring how I feel about a travel system.
For what it's worth, I think some people (Not all) are arguing from the 'Teleportation is convenient, just in general' perspective, rather than wanting the teleportation points to be 30 feet away from each other.
Personally, I don't think you should be able to see one teleport site from another, and I'm happy with just a few... just because somebody wants SOME teleportation doesn't mean that's the only thing they want.
... but so far as teaming up with my friends goes, then yeah. I want instant gratification, or close to it. Call me a jerk, a kiddy, a console baby, or whatever you want, but I don't think I need to 'earn' the right to play a game with my friends. Playing a game with your friends shouldn't be a PRIZE, that you have to strive for.
I don't want everything handed to me on a silver platter, I just want convenient methods to hang out with my friends when I want to. Is that so bad? Yeah, 2-3 minute travel time, not a big deal, but if the zones can take 15 minutes to cross, and you're trying to get from one side of the world to the other to meet up with your friends, that's only 2-3 minutes if you're really, really bad at math.
It's not flattering (To yourself) if you treat everybody with a viewpoint that doesn't explicitly agree with yours as having some sort of cartoonish, parody viewpoint that you've created inside of your head.
I think teleportation serves a purpose in moderation, and if it removes somebody else's immersion that I can do it, perhaps they need to get out of my business.
Being a jerk doesn't exactly help someone make their argument, it only makes them look like a jerk who can't stand people disagreeing with their own viewpoint.
Yeah, which is why I was surprised to see you making fun of people for being instant gratification kiddies. Usually you're a lot classier than that.
For what it's worth, I think some people (Not all) are arguing from the 'Teleportation is convenient, just in general' perspective, rather than wanting the teleportation points to be 30 feet away from each other.
Like I sad several times now, I never was against TP, I only wished for that it be available in moderation.
I don't want everything handed to me on a silver platter, I just want convenient methods to hang out with my friends when I want to. Is that so bad? Yeah, 2-3 minute travel time, not a big deal, but if the zones can take 15 minutes to cross, and you're trying to get from one side of the world to the other to meet up with your friends, that's only 2-3 minutes if you're really, really bad at math.
15 minutes is what's been used as argument by the 'TP everywhere instantly' people, not by me. Zones don't take 15 minutes to cross, only if you're fighting mobs inbetween. See my sig, complete areas can be crossed within a few minutes, a few TP locations would suffice. Unless GW2 will be as mob infested as Rift, of course.
It's not flattering (To yourself) if you treat everybody with a viewpoint that doesn't explicitly agree with yours as having some sort of cartoonish, parody viewpoint that you've created inside of your head.
It's not flattering either to credit me with a viewpoint that I never had, by exaggerating and pulling out of proportion one thing I said while ignoring all the other things I've said that contradicts that false image.
I think teleportation serves a purpose in moderation, and if it removes somebody else's immersion that I can do it, perhaps they need to get out of my business.
Well, this is going a bit offtopic, but yes, I think with the influx of a lot of new MMO gamers with WoW, a lot of people have entered the scene who have a different view and preferences towards MMORPG's, who don't have the background or experience with PnP RPG's or even classic computer RPG's let alone a liking of those. The composition of the MMO playerbase has changed over the years and with that change, also overall accents in tastes and preferences have changed. An instant-gratification mindset is one of those changes. And a lot of MMORPG's have been moving into that direction as well, making MMORPG's be better games but in the same process losing features that are enjoyable in an MMORPG as well, things that make an MMORPG be more than just a game that can for example have meaningless lore as long as the gameplay is ok; things that can make an MMORPG also feel like a gameworld.
For the rest if people can't handle that others are saying how they feel about teleportation and how they prefer it when used in moderation and not in abundance, then perhaps they should just stop posting about it. I've already stated several times that tastes differ and to each their own, if their memory is that short or if they're too lazy to read that then that's their problem.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Like I sad several times now, I never was against TP, I only wished for that it be available in moderation.
15 minutes is what's been used as argument by the 'TP everywhere instantly' people, not by me. Zones don't take 15 minutes to cross, only if you're fighting mobs inbetween. See my sig, complete areas can be crossed within a few minutes, a few TP locations would suffice. Unless GW2 will be as mob infested as Rift, of course.
It's not flattering either to credit me with a viewpoint that I never had, by exaggerating and pulling out of proportion one thing I said while ignoring all the other things I've said that contradicts that false image.
Well, this is going a bit offtopic, but yes, I think with the influx of a lot of new MMO gamers with WoW, a lot of people have entered the scene who have a different view and preferences towards MMORPG's, who don't have the background or experience with PnP RPG's or even classic computer RPG's let alone a liking of those. The composition of the MMO playerbase has changed over the years and with that change, also overall accents in tastes and preferences have changed. An instant-gratification mindset is one of those changes. And a lot of MMORPG's have been moving into that direction as well, making MMORPG's be better games but in the same process losing features that are enjoyable in an MMORPG as well, things that make an MMORPG be more than just a game that can for example have meaningless lore as long as the gameplay is ok; things that can make an MMORPG also feel like a gameworld.
For the rest if people can't handle that others are saying how they feel about teleportation and how they prefer it when used in moderation and not in abundance, then perhaps they should just stop posting about it. I've already stated several times that tastes differ and to each their own, if their memory is that short or if they're too lazy to read that then that's their problem.
... I didn't say you WERE against teleportation, I said that a lot of people are holding the view of moderate teleporation points being acceptable. Including people you're arguing with. I dare say that part of the problem is most people aren't reading everything that everybody else wrote, so it's a lot of arguing against viewpoints that the other person doesn't actually hold when you read the post where they wrote what they think is appropriate. Still, language is vague enough that two people can hold a similar view and still be arguing with each other because they're not understanding what the other side is arguing for.
Nobody actually KNOWS how long it will take to cross zones, yet. The 15 minute figure was given by one of the developers during a Q&A session, saying that's how long it took her to cross one of the bigger zones, stopping only to fight what she had to to get around. Maybe she's exaggerating, maybe not. Even if it's 5 minutes, multiple zones to traverse definitely make teleportation worthwhile. AND NO, I didn't just say 'I think you should have teleportation points every 50 feet', I just think there's no problem with having the 'right amount'. What's the right amount? I'm sure no two people can agree on what, exactly, that is. I don't need them 1-2 minutes of travel apart from each other, but I don't want them 15-20 minutes apart, either.
Actually, it's not just one thing you said, and for a moment I was cutting and pasting ALL the times you said things like 'teleportation bunnyhopper' 'instant gratification mindset', and other such things that aren't really flattering, but then I realized that there's no point to us fighting. Can we just pretend to each other we were both a-holes, secretly think that we're right and not tell the other person, shake and make up? This isn't worth fighting over. Let's just say that obviously feelings are getting more heated than they should be about a pretty pointless topic when people probably aren't disagreeing as much as we seem like.
I'm an old gamer. Older than you. ... I'm not a new person, just my tastes have changed. You know my favorite game system? My DS. Because I can play it for 15 minutes at work on break, then close it. It gets the most gameplay out of all my systems (PC & Consoles included). My 360 is basically a really fancy Netflix system that shows Thomas the Tank Engine videos.
Maybe you don't mean to, but I think part of the problem might be that people appear to be taking your instant gratification comments as being condescending, as if we're not quite as deep.
I'd like to think I'm just as deep as anybody, just pressed for time and having decided that no video game competes with my friends. I'm not looking for a virtual world anymore, I like the real world. I want to be able to get into GW2's lore and explore at my own pace, but hey, I also like convenience when I need it. That's just the way I am, and I can't really apologize for it.
Even if I am apparently the cancer that is killing MMORPGs. (Do not get insulted at that, I am not accusing you of saying that, but you have to admit there's a lot of people on mmorpg.com who believe that.)
Apparently I can't post this enough, because people not getting it: The way points were all unlocked for the demo but in the real game you have to walk up to them to unlock them before you can teleport back to them later. And then you have to pay to use them. Teleporting is not free.
BTW I found walking back to places ( not towns or outposts) I had already been to before very annoying in GW1, looking forward to way points allowing instant travel back to places other than towns and outposts.
Comments
Even though i love mounts in MMOs we cannot forget we are talking about Guild Wars... It is part of their gameplay design.
there was teleport in Guild Wars 1 and will be in GW2 too. For what i experienced,that does not rest inmersion to teh gameplay.
It is just another kind of gameplay....dont expect another WoW folks...
Yes indeed. But it's a quite sad day when the only 2 MMOs steadily growing/innovating in the genre are from indie companies from island nations. I am playing Darkfall, but the game can only do so much with 30 staff members. I'd prefer a Dark Age of Camelot 2.
Good luck with that. They don't sell as well as they used to for a reason, people got bored with all the 'immersive world' stuff. There is simply a larger market in the themepark business. I don't mind a little travel time. But if I was forced to walk/ride/fly all over the place I would be fed up and probably stop playing, not everybody has the time to wait to get places. 15 min is a bit much for me, 5 min travel time seems about right to an area I've allready been through. 15 is really pushing that time premium.
Disagreement Heirarchy
If the game was designed with travel time in mind, you wouldn't mind so much. Same thing with instances. Take instances out of WoW and it falls apart, design a game without instances and you'll never need them.
Different folks different strokes. As you can tell by what games are the most successful, you and the other people who like the long travel times and harsh death penalties etc. are the minority.
Beggers can't be choosers. If you don't like any of the games that are coming out soon then either find one of the older games you do like or make one yourself.
The older games are gone or I, and the million other oldschool MMOers, would be contentedly playing them. And nobody said anything about harsh death penalties. That's you projecting your conception of "all old MMOs were EQ" again.
Even though I usually have time to spare, the last thing I want to do is waste it on stupid things like travel times and artificial time sinks. When I log into a game, I expect to play, not twiddle my thumbs up my ass for 15 minutes. My time is precious, no matter whether I'm spending it on entertainment or doing something serious.
I started with EQ back in 1999, when they had those stupid ships and hour long runs from Qeynos to Freeport. I was not amused by either and I certainly don't remember people being social on those boat rides. Most people went AFK or ignored you for guild chat. They didn't get rid of those things without reason and for the most part, everyone was happy with the PoK books.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Well I agree that there should be more sandboxish mmos out there but the reality is that they don't appear to sell well. I do think GW2 has sandbox elements but it certainly isn't a full game such as what you want. Still I wish you good luck in finding your mmo.
It's foolish to ignore something like instancing or phasing. Both are tools to be used, and if used right can create great experiences.. The reason why other MMOs aren't garnering the size of WoW is because the market is tapped. It's much easier to get people in an untapped market than a tapped one. People make the themeparks because they want a piece of the 12million subscriber pie. Darkfall and EvE can grow because their market isn't entirely or largely tapped by one large competitor. That market is still smaller than the other one. I have no problem with these games, I just don't find them engaging. So, I don't want GW2 to be like that. That really isn't the style of game they seem to be going for either. It's a casual friendly game thus far, and travel times are far from casual friendly.
Also, I fail to see how you can make travel entertaining. Oblivion I didn't quick travel a ton as a mage because it gave me a chance to boringly cast spells to get xp in them. Pressing R and aiming at the horizon just isn't interesting to me.
Disagreement Heirarchy
OK I got a question for you guys! You both relate teleporting to waypoints like GW2 has to a theme park and instant gratification. Then Garvon3 goes on to say that GW2 is not a virtual world because of the teleporting and that the golden age of MMOs was with AC, DAoC, EQ, UO, and SWG. Well my question is; are you guys ignoring what the OP said in his original post? If you guys go take a look at what he said he talks about the fact that you can buy runes in UO that made it so you could teleport to anywhere you have been in the game. So for a fee you could buy the runes and teleport around like a mage on speed, just for the fun of it. I wonder what other game has a system like this. Here is a link to UOs rune system.
Let’s see in GW2 you can only teleport to waypoints that you find, well that sounds eerily like UO where you could set a rune to any place you have been. In GW2 it cost money to use a waypoint, this is getting freaky guys that sounds eerily like UO again, in UO you had to buy runes and Rune Books. OH my God, UO was not a sandbox it was a theme park it allows teleportation to everywhere with a cost. UO was all about instant gratification and the rollercoaster rides, haunted house, and merry-go-round.
So guys what happened to your golden age, UO betrayed you it was Guild Wars 2 a decade before Anet created it. OH no the horror UO had teleportation runes, it completely ruined my immersion, all those idiot kids marking locations everywhere and just teleporting. What ever happened to just walking everywhere, God you spoiled instant gratification wimps. Also why do you people need mounts it total ruins my immersion, in real life only the top 10% had the money to afford a horse and to learn how to ride it. I demand a virtual world, mounts should be worth 10 million gold so only the top 10% will ever get to use them, you people ruin my immersion not everyone should be riding mounts! I want my virtual world. Dang UO for having runes and other forms of transportation, people should be walking everywhere, just like roman soldiers. Dang you UO, dang you to hell! sarcasm off
I agree with said person.
I'm perfectly fine with being able to teleport OUT of anywhere, but you should not be able to teleport just about anywhere. I want mounts added, and I think you should have to use your mount to get to places not near big cities/big hotspot.
It just seems silly to be porting 30 feet because it's "easier on players"....
I like your post.
me likes the post above i loled
Being a jerk doesn't exactly help someone make their argument, it only makes them look like a jerk who can't stand people disagreeing with their own viewpoint.
It's a pretty f*cked up situation if you have GW2 fans attacking other GW2 fans merely because they dislike those not sharing their opinion of having TP's everywhere around, nice going, guys, gj stifling any dissenting voices
I never played UO extensively, however I can't recall having teleport spots every 20 second walking distance as seen in the GW2 starter zone in the demos. EQ, DAoC and AC definitely didn't have them, and their worlds felt large. It is one of the elements that can make an MMORPG feel more than just a game and more like a world to me, UO had other features that make it feel more like a world. You have different styles of players, some who like their MMORPG to be purely a game and it doesn't need to have any 'large, immersive world' kind of feel, and then there are MMO gamers who like their games to have that large, immersive world kind of feel for added fun and enjoyment in the games they play.
Several features in an MMORPG can add to that immersive world feeling, and having a vast world to explore instead of a smallish one and having traveling mean something are two of those features that help in that.
I'm not going to repeat my comments upon the OP that I already posted several times in this thread alone. I'm in the camp of MMO gamers that's for teleportation being possible in moderation.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Same. When teleportation makes a big world feel small, the dev has defeated the reason for having the big world in the first place
The reason players like teleportation in recent MMOs is because it's tedious to run through the same areas over and over again.
THAT is the core of the problem, not teleportation itself. If areas are boring to run through, then players would not want to run through them. I think GW2 is trying to address this problem by having dynamic events, making it worthwhile to trek through areas you've been through before, because you never know what new things might pop up.
Hence why having teleportation hubs between major cities is great, as you still need to venture into the countryside to discover the new events that are popping up.
And you are fine to have that opinion, I never once in my post said you couldn’t have it. The only part I was sarcastically making fun of was the way you said it. Saying things like everyone that does not agree with you is all about instant gratification, and not about the experience does not help your point though. I do not want to be judge as an instant gratification kid just because I see merit to what ANet is doing! So lay off with the Jerk thing!
As for the runes I linked the information about them, so you can look it up.
Plus there are parts I agree with when you don’t make the opposite opinion sound demeaning with things like instant gratification phrases. I like large immersive worlds, and the fact that one of the developers said some of the larger zones it takes 15 minutes to walk across, gives me that hope. The only thing we have really seen in detail is the starter areas, so we do not know how the waypoint system is really going to be setup in those huge zones. I am sure ANet will listen to their fan base and if there are too many in those zones they will trim it down. For me I would be fine with just 3 in that huge zone. 1 in the middle and 2 at the ends, so you could get around when you needed too, otherwise I plan on walking and exploring the maps. I know they are going hide things to start DEs off the beaten path, that makes exploring and ignoring the waypoints its own reward. I guess when it comes down to it I do not care, I do not have to use waypoints, and I hope if they add mounts I will not need them either. I do not want to be forced to play either way; I want my character based on how I see it according to the lore of the world.
And with the miniature asura gate that was invited a few years before the game, I will not be surprised if I see someone just appear in front of me. I would just think ah what a marvelous or hated technology depending on my character, but it will not break my immersion because it is part of Tyria now. You can thank Snaff for that!
I think it's interesting people bring up theme parks. Does standing in line for an hour in order to go on a roller coaster increase your appreciation for the roller coaster? Or does it just make it so you can't go on as many rides as you'd like? Does anybody say, "that coaster was awesome because I waited so long for it?"
Hypothetical question... You can go to a theme park where you can get on any ride with no line, or you can go to a theme park where there's a 5 minute wait for every ride. Which do you go to?
I think having to travel can serve immersion by giving the player the scope of the world, but I think it serves no purpose after that's accomplished. If in GW2 you have to travel to a point before you can teleport to it, then the game is doing just that, providing immersion and then convenience.
In GW1, you have to travel to an outpost/mission and then once you've been there you can teleport to it freely thereafter. One of the things though is that it's not just a run through a zone or two, the way is filled with enemies and you'll have to do a lot of fighting to get there. If I have to go one and a half zones to do a quest, you can be sure I'm googling to find where the nearest outpost is, because I'd rather fight through another half zone to get there and have it unlocked than have to fight through those two entire zones later.
Right now I'm dividing my time between the Prophecies campaign and the Eye of the North expansion. I have a sense of the scope of the world because I know it would take FOREVER to run from one to another. I truly appreciate being able to teleport and do whichever content I feel like. Would a 5, 10 or 15 minute flight between the two areas increase my immersion? Or would it just be a pointless waste of time? Maybe things would be different if there were roads you could just travel on and enjoy the scenery, but I wouldn't even want to spend 5-10 extra minutes if I could only teleport to a central EotN hub and had to run to the outlying outposts, because I know that's 5-10 extra minutes on top of the 10-15 minutes I'm going to need to do any quest from whatever starting point anyway.
And that's just from a single player perspective. I haven't even touched on the idea of making up to four people wait for someone else. That's something I guarantee isn't increasing immersion.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Yeah, which is why I was surprised to see you making fun of people for being instant gratification kiddies. Usually you're a lot classier than that.
I think I have a pretty complicated, nuanced feeling towards travel in MMOs in general... there's a lot of factors involved, and 'instant gratification' is hardly the only metric I use for measuring how I feel about a travel system.
For what it's worth, I think some people (Not all) are arguing from the 'Teleportation is convenient, just in general' perspective, rather than wanting the teleportation points to be 30 feet away from each other.
Personally, I don't think you should be able to see one teleport site from another, and I'm happy with just a few... just because somebody wants SOME teleportation doesn't mean that's the only thing they want.
... but so far as teaming up with my friends goes, then yeah. I want instant gratification, or close to it. Call me a jerk, a kiddy, a console baby, or whatever you want, but I don't think I need to 'earn' the right to play a game with my friends. Playing a game with your friends shouldn't be a PRIZE, that you have to strive for.
I don't want everything handed to me on a silver platter, I just want convenient methods to hang out with my friends when I want to. Is that so bad? Yeah, 2-3 minute travel time, not a big deal, but if the zones can take 15 minutes to cross, and you're trying to get from one side of the world to the other to meet up with your friends, that's only 2-3 minutes if you're really, really bad at math.
It's not flattering (To yourself) if you treat everybody with a viewpoint that doesn't explicitly agree with yours as having some sort of cartoonish, parody viewpoint that you've created inside of your head.
I think teleportation serves a purpose in moderation, and if it removes somebody else's immersion that I can do it, perhaps they need to get out of my business.
Well, this is going a bit offtopic, but yes, I think with the influx of a lot of new MMO gamers with WoW, a lot of people have entered the scene who have a different view and preferences towards MMORPG's, who don't have the background or experience with PnP RPG's or even classic computer RPG's let alone a liking of those. The composition of the MMO playerbase has changed over the years and with that change, also overall accents in tastes and preferences have changed. An instant-gratification mindset is one of those changes. And a lot of MMORPG's have been moving into that direction as well, making MMORPG's be better games but in the same process losing features that are enjoyable in an MMORPG as well, things that make an MMORPG be more than just a game that can for example have meaningless lore as long as the gameplay is ok; things that can make an MMORPG also feel like a gameworld.
For the rest if people can't handle that others are saying how they feel about teleportation and how they prefer it when used in moderation and not in abundance, then perhaps they should just stop posting about it. I've already stated several times that tastes differ and to each their own, if their memory is that short or if they're too lazy to read that then that's their problem.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
... I didn't say you WERE against teleportation, I said that a lot of people are holding the view of moderate teleporation points being acceptable. Including people you're arguing with. I dare say that part of the problem is most people aren't reading everything that everybody else wrote, so it's a lot of arguing against viewpoints that the other person doesn't actually hold when you read the post where they wrote what they think is appropriate. Still, language is vague enough that two people can hold a similar view and still be arguing with each other because they're not understanding what the other side is arguing for.
Nobody actually KNOWS how long it will take to cross zones, yet. The 15 minute figure was given by one of the developers during a Q&A session, saying that's how long it took her to cross one of the bigger zones, stopping only to fight what she had to to get around. Maybe she's exaggerating, maybe not. Even if it's 5 minutes, multiple zones to traverse definitely make teleportation worthwhile. AND NO, I didn't just say 'I think you should have teleportation points every 50 feet', I just think there's no problem with having the 'right amount'. What's the right amount? I'm sure no two people can agree on what, exactly, that is. I don't need them 1-2 minutes of travel apart from each other, but I don't want them 15-20 minutes apart, either.
Actually, it's not just one thing you said, and for a moment I was cutting and pasting ALL the times you said things like 'teleportation bunnyhopper' 'instant gratification mindset', and other such things that aren't really flattering, but then I realized that there's no point to us fighting. Can we just pretend to each other we were both a-holes, secretly think that we're right and not tell the other person, shake and make up? This isn't worth fighting over. Let's just say that obviously feelings are getting more heated than they should be about a pretty pointless topic when people probably aren't disagreeing as much as we seem like.
I'm an old gamer. Older than you. ... I'm not a new person, just my tastes have changed. You know my favorite game system? My DS. Because I can play it for 15 minutes at work on break, then close it. It gets the most gameplay out of all my systems (PC & Consoles included). My 360 is basically a really fancy Netflix system that shows Thomas the Tank Engine videos.
Maybe you don't mean to, but I think part of the problem might be that people appear to be taking your instant gratification comments as being condescending, as if we're not quite as deep.
I'd like to think I'm just as deep as anybody, just pressed for time and having decided that no video game competes with my friends. I'm not looking for a virtual world anymore, I like the real world. I want to be able to get into GW2's lore and explore at my own pace, but hey, I also like convenience when I need it. That's just the way I am, and I can't really apologize for it.
Even if I am apparently the cancer that is killing MMORPGs.
(Do not get insulted at that, I am not accusing you of saying that, but you have to admit there's a lot of people on mmorpg.com who believe that.)
Apparently I can't post this enough, because people not getting it: The way points were all unlocked for the demo but in the real game you have to walk up to them to unlock them before you can teleport back to them later. And then you have to pay to use them. Teleporting is not free.
BTW I found walking back to places ( not towns or outposts) I had already been to before very annoying in GW1, looking forward to way points allowing instant travel back to places other than towns and outposts.