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GW2 = LoL?
VowOfSilence
Member UncommonPosts: 565
LoL as in League of Legends (DOTA), not "lol". Maybe a little "lol", too.
After playing around with the GW2 character creator, it became painfully obvious to me how similar GW2's system is to LoL, and how little it has in common with GW1:
- Basic attack + 4 predetermined skills + class-specific abilty.
- No dedicated classes, no secondary classes.
- Same stats for classes, character traits, traditional stuff like crit chance etc.
- Some mechanics even ripped straight from LoL, like "X while passive, Y while active" abilites.
I played GW1, LoL, and WoW, and I'm afraid I'm starting to see where Anet is going with this. Quite frankly, I don't think this mix is going to work and it's not going to make experienced players happy. LoL without match progression is shallow. GW1 with limited customization is shallow. Mix it and PvP will be a shallow LoL with shallow customization. And PvE gameplay would play like... well, like playing LoL against AI mobs. Sounds exciting? For the first time, I'm getting a little concerned again -.-
Hype train -> Reality
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Could you perchance elaborate a tadlebit more on how this LoL combat turned out, old chap? I have never played it and it is hard for me to see the negatives on this one. I actually only see positives to the flexibility of each class and the weapon system: switching roles when needed, feeling versatile and promoting diversity in gameplay, eckceterah, eckceterah.
My brand new bloggity blog.
The developers have admited to being LoL fans and have taken some inspiration from it. GW2 will be deeper than League of Legends for sure but you will see some similarities. If you don't like that then I'm not sure what to tell you other than wait until all information and game testing is available.
Edit: I personally enjoy League of Legends (except for only having a couple of maps) so I don't share your concerns. I think the main thing to take away from it is the team play aspect of it and I believe ANet is trying to encorporate that into GW2 as well.
p.s. your concern at least partially being answered at 16:16: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4xQITFhYAU&feature=related
My brand new bloggity blog.
The character creator only has one weapon set, only a part of the weapon, healing, utility and elite skills (most racial skills are unknown at the time), there are no traits in the creator, no attributes, no equipment and there are two professions left to be revealed. Are you sure there is too little costomization?
And if that's not enough, playstyle and especially things like timing/positioning/dodging are extremely important and this gives you even more freedom, maybe not in what your character can do but in what you can do with your character.
It's F2P, so you can try for yourself. I'd actually recommend it, item shop is very fair as well and it's a great PvP arena game. But the problem is that it's almost the opposite of GW1 in many ways.
Well, that's the same stuff they're saying all the time:
"Don't worry, GW2 has EVEN MORE customization! There's like, uh... 20-25 utility skills, and you can combine them, uh... and that's OVER 78.000 COMBINATIONS!! That's a big number, right? Does that answer your question?"
Seriously, wtf?
Hype train -> Reality
Well I personally don't see how a few similar combat-specifc aspects from League of Legends will turn Guild Wars 2 into LoL the MMO. By that same logic I can say that Borderlands has the "Fight to Survive" mechanic and now that Guild Wars 2 uses that same down mechanic, it's gonna suck because I don't like Borderlands (¬_¬). I actually do like Borderlands, it's a good game, I also like how Arenanet are taking ideas & notable features of all these good games to make a great game, without it become a Frankenstein of a game.
See my previous post and the following links:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_skills
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait (and the links to the incomplete traits lists on that page)
Well, if you yanked the secondary professions out of GW1, then GW2 definitely has more customizing than GW1.
Even with the secondary professions, it's pretty obvious they're trying for something where there's more viable combinations, and less of a disparity between combinations (The difference between a good and a bad set of skills in GW1 is insanely wide. Literally you can range from 'incapable of doing anything other than basic attack' to 'cheese your way to victory through 99% of the PvE content.)
Will they succeed? Well, that's a good question.
By the way, are you questioning how they came up with the number 78,000, or are you just saying that's not enough?
He didnt mean utility skill combinations alone when he said 87,000 combinations, thats the total number of combinations possible with the right side of your bar (5 skills that arent effected by your weapon sets)
if you have 25 utility skills and three slots to place then the totall for combination possibilities, If im doing the math right, is 13,800 combinations alone. But as for all 5 slots that means A bit more to calculate when it comes to the skills you chose. But it doesnt stop with the skill bar either. Traits modify how your skills work, such as adding a trait that causes poisoning as aposed to crippleing, that in its self is a very large modifier and thus makes the number of possible combinations go up even further.
and dont use quotations if your going to bs what the developers are saying, its just plain rude, and really doesnt make you look all that good.
Its hard to me to take the OP seriously. GW1 definitely did not have shallow combat, also I have played LoL and I don't see the similiarties other than skills?
He actually said about "87,000 combinations for each profession"... you should listen more often and maybe you'll learn something new. Also it would be a good idea to actively use that greyish matter in your head, called a brain more often, cause it'll allow you process information better.
Like let's take the Thief for example and say the Thief has 4 different heal skills, 2 of which we know already. Withdraw that causes your character to leap back and regain about 50% of its health. Then there's Signet of Malice that passively heals, let's says 1% of your health, everytime you deal damage and 25% once activated (I'm making these numbers up based on observation). Now these are just self-heals and some may neglect them because of that, but others will consider that just picking a self-heal can have a major effect on how you play. So in this case you can either pick a self-heal that gets you out of combat or one that keeps you in combat.
If by just changing between one or the other, equates to 2 combinations in that 87,000 combination pool, even if it was just 800 different combinations, then I consider that a major improvement towards customizing your characters. And that's without taking into account your characters attributes, traits & weapons bonuses.
Yep, no meaningful differences between them.
Also, chefs = surgeons, because:
1) Both work with sharp knives
2) Both often use said knives to cut forms of "meat"
3) If done well, both will have the health of the person they are serving increase somewhat.
So what if it is really?
LoL was and is extremely fun to play.
That means good things for GW2 I suppose from my personal perspective.
Actually, from any reasonable calculation, he appears to be talking about your 3 utility slots + your heal slot, and is ignoring the elite slot. Either that, or there's only 2 elite skills per class (Which I'm pretty sure is wrong). You only need 6 heal skills to jump from 13,800 combinations to 81,000 combinations. At least on some classes, they've shown 3 already, so that would only allow 2 elite skills to hit the 81,000 number.
That's ignoring the difference stats and traits make, of course.
... and ignoring that even a thief (The class with the least amount of weapon combinations so far) has 42 different possible combinations they can do with weapons. (Yes, there are perfectly valid reasons to have both pistol/pistol and pistol/dagger, for example. Pistol-pistol piles on the ranged firepower, while pistol-dagger allows you to close in quickly (Perhaps for a utility skill, or to steal)
Okay, so 81,000 x 42 = 3,402,000 possible combinations. Which, oddly enough, is WAY less than a Guild Wars 1 class has for possible skill combinations.
... but anybody bitching because there's only 3 million possible combinations of skills per class (Minimum) (Ignoring traits for a moment) is somebody I have a hard time taking seriously.
My point was that this dev is trying to play math tricks on us to make small numbers seem like huge numbers, when they're really not.
To put things a little in perspective, try calculating the possible combinations that GW1 had. Posting that number would probably result in a long post...
Hype train -> Reality
I already said that GW1 has a ridiculous, ridiculous amount of combinations. BEYOND ridiculous. It's several orders of magnitude past 3 million possible combinations.
All I'm saying is that 3 million possible combinations is still a lot.
It's also possible that traits would push the amount of GW2 combinations into, or even past GW1 skill combination numbers.
Once you start getting into the millions of combinations (... and then billions), is there really a meaningful amount of difference, though? At that point in time, isn't the question how many of those combinations are actually viable?
(Hint: In GW1, the answer is 'not many of them')
I think the maths angle is totally wrong to take here. I play Guild Wars actively still today, and yes, there are more possible combination than you can shake an asura at, but that is not really the point.
Think about how many combinations there are that are largely useless and cripple (not the condition) the player in terms of power (not to mention how many skills are copies of one another). Now think about how many combinations are useful and good. Clearly, there are many more useless ones. The way I see the goal of the current system (not necessarily how it plays out, though I hope so) is that each change is a meaningful decision and changes something that matters.
So you have fewer total combinations, but each combo is a meaningful change from another combo, and (and this is important), it is much harder and perhaps impossible to create a guild that markedly gimps you as a player. Lots of options are useless when comparatively few of them are either viable or used with any regularity. Add to that the danger to new players of creating a build that makes things harder for them, and you have a very cumbersome system. Not to mention how bloated the GW1 skill system has become.
Regardless, if you liked GW1, and realise that this is made by the same minds, and they want to make things better, perhaps we should be having more faith and asking what plans they might have that will make it more robust, instead of assuming it will not be as robust.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Ah yes, I almost forgot to rant about "timing".
They removed all interrupt-skills. Apparently, because these skills are prone to lag & latency.
So... isn't every action that requires good timinig prone to lag & latency? Like, the newly introduced doging feature?I don't get it. I'm not buying it, either. One could get the idea they removed it simply because newbies had trouble to coordinate interrupts, and they want GW2 to be as newbie-friendly as possible.
Hype train -> Reality
hmm people seem to forget combo skills here.
flame wall from ele and an arrow shot through it from ranger makes flame arrow, which in gw1 takes a skill slot.
GW2 is not free to play, you have to buy the game. Its just subcription free. There is a difference.
So a skill that causes a "daze, blind, knock-back or knock-down" isn't considered an interrupt then? It's obvious that you just don't know anything about this game now and are just trolling.
They removed interrupts because it no longer fits into the game mechanics. In Guild Wars 1, it fit perfectly well. In GW2, it doesn't fit anymore. REMEMBER GW1 != GW2.
As for GW2 = LoL. No. Anet has stated they are pulling inspiration from a wide range of genres and games. This would include LoL, traditional RPGs, FPS, etc. No, it does not mean GW2 = LoL copy. In case you don't remember, LoL is a PvP focused MMORTS. GW2 is not an RTS.
How did they remove interrupts? all classes shown certainly have a couple of interrupt skills ??? Warrs have knock-downs some stuns etc. the guardian well has even more than that IE. Reflective Shield or whatever the skillname was and the other skillthat draws a line mobs can't pass... Thief also has mobility decreasing skills which in effect are also interrupts...
The definition of an interrupt is broadly any skill which prevents an opponent to inflict damage upon your character and other allies
so the term interrupt skill touches a broader number of skills than the standard Stun Knockdown Sleep type skills
So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$
Mesmer and Ranger in Guild Wars 1 have skills that are specifically designed to interrupt the activating of a skill. Like interrupt the casting of a spell and if you succeed you gain +x energy or do x amount of dmg. You had to time that skill to make it hit during the casting of a foe. Another example would be interrupting a skill and if you succeed that skill gets disabled for a while.
A knockdown or daze is not just about interrupting, those skills have additional use. It can interrupt yes, but a knockdown for example has also an effect if the foe isnt using a skill at all. Like being used to prevent a mob/player from fleeing.
With the name interrupt skills in Guild Wars, players mean skills that only have an effect when you actively interrupt the casting of a spell/skills.
Your thief example is a snare skill btw.
I dont like that GW2 wont have these kind of interrupt skills. They were what made Mesmer an awesome profession to play.
In that respect indeed i follow however we should all keep in mind that not all skills are known yet and neither are the professions also they are constantly changing their designs to see what works what doesn't etc. at the current state when they made that statement they might have felt interrupts were not quite necessary or didn't fit the type of play they were gunning for but they might still change their minds about that matter and also keep in mind the trait system so it's not difficult to expect that certain skills might gain traits that let said skill work as an actual interrupt in the GW1 sense of the word
So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$