Your logic is incorrect. The number of souls available to "heal" are meaningless. If I make a DPS or Tank cleric it doesn't matter if there are 1, 2,3 or more souls available for healing. It comes down to the role slots. A Mage can just as easilly slot a Chloromancer build as a Cleric can slot a healer role. Same for Rogue. You are once again projecting your personal desires onto someone else. In this case "They have more healing souls so they must use them". This is false logic. You scratch your head because they don't want to setup their character the way you would. Once again.. recruit for a HEALER.. not a cleric. If someone joins the group that was recruiting a HEALER then they should heal.
More importantly why would you even WANT to force someone into a role that they either have no skill at or no experience with? That is surely a plan to fail...
My point is that the amount of souls for a particular slot will effect how many effective builds you can have. If you have a mage in RIFT, there's no point in having a necromancer and an elementalist build. You might as well have a Levelling build / PvP build / Healing build as a mage.
No, the amount of souls has ZERO impact on the ability to have a healing role. Well, as except for Warrior because they have zero. A Mage or a rogue can just as easilly have a healing role saved as a cleric regardless of the number of healing souls available. It just takes ONE soul to be an effective mage healer and that souls is just as easy to obtain as any other one. It's simply a matter of playstyle choice. For some reason you have decided that clerics MUST have at least one role slotted for healing but mages and rogues do not.
As a cleric, you have like three possible completely different builds. Levelling-DPS build / PvP whatever you want to play / Healing / Tanking.
Well thats 4, but regardless that is how YOU would spec it. Perhaps I would prefer to have a PvP build, 2 Melee DPS builds and a ranged DPS build. Perhaps I just want to play a chain wielding DPS machine and have zero desire to heal. That's the point. If you want a healer recruit one. Don't pidgeonhole all clerics into having to fit what YOU think they should
You do know what a public group is, right? It's possible to have an entirely full raid in RIFT and have no healers with people unwilling to play healer because "they don't want to".
Can you not by now understand that they probably do not have a healing role setup? Any more than the other mages or rogues? They aren't playing healer because their character isn't a healer. It's DPS. Or Tank. Is that so hard to comprehend?
How else are they meant to learn? And, like I said, rifts and invasions in RIFT don't really require a great deal of healing skill. They just need someone capable of putting me to full health now and again.
Maybe they do not want to learn to heal. Once again, they are DPS.. or tank. Sorry if that doesn't fit what how you want them to play. Feel free to make a group and recruit a healer.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Again, only looking at it from your own perspective. That the player in question has decided - long before they met you and ended up in your party, I presume - that they're not interested in playing a role you would like them to play, doesn't make them "not a team player". They're not spec'd for it and not interested in playing it. Perhaps you could be a *flexible* team player, and find another solution.
And, besides, in a game like Rift where it allows you to have a great number of specs, it would be silly not to have at least one healing one. That's what you said, right? I would guess that, saying that, you have a healing spec yourself, right? So, why don't you be a team player and take on the healing role? I mean, you're so willing to assert that others should be willing to, right? Why should you be any different?
I just felt like responding to this bit since the rest seems rather emotional and I don't understand it at all anyway since it has to do with FFXI.
Emotional? Not at all. Quit cut and dry actually. The FFXI example was used to illustrate how I've dealt with people like yourself in other games, and how it's always annoying. Nothing more.
I don't HAVE a healing role. I played a warrior (the only class without any healing souls). I was considering rerolling cleric in order to get access to all the possible playstyles, but I quit before I could.
Well, maybe you should? I mean, what if a party you're invited to doesn't need another Warrior and really needs a Healer instead? Don't you think, with all the options available to you in Rift, that you should be a team player, set aside your preferred playstyle for the good of the group, and switch to your healer so others in the group can do their jobs more effectively? Why are you being so selfish about it?I mean the options are there, so why not use them?
(if you took that as a literal suggestion... then you missed the point entirely)
When I played WoW, I played a paladin. My main spec was tanking and my off-spec was healing for PvP. I could quite easily switch to my healing spec whenever someone asked and I'd do it to help my PvP team get along.
I'm just gonna quote you directly in response to this. Hopefully you'll understand why.
"I don't understand it at all anyway since it has to do with FFXI."
I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with WoW, either.
Irony much?
What's wrong with this? Are people so anti-social that they are angry at other people trying to carry a team along? Healers are, inevitably, the group-makers in PvE and PvP. They do it in Team Fortress 2, in WoW, in RIFT, in everything. Tanks are similar in PvE play.
As has been explained, Cleric doesn't automatically = Healer. Someone might like the other aspects a Cleric brings, but not be interested at all in the healing side of it. They won't want to heal because they aren't interested in healing. Simple. Because you think they should, or because "it's what you would do" is not a mandate for others to play the same way, and they are not obligated to agree with you.
People are not obligated to play the way you think they should. Period.
Again, your solution has been provided in this thread already... Recruit specifically for a healer to your groups to make sure you're getting a healer. Don't recruit a class that you *assume* will want to, or be prepared to, heal for the group.
That you continue to ignore that very good and basic advice and continue arguing your previous point is now kina silly. You're just being stubborn at this point.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Once again... People are not obligated to play the way *you* think they should, or spec their classes the way *you* think they should. No matter how much you think it to be the case.
Your attitude is a perfect example of the type that turns MMOs with myriad options to play the game and reduces it down to a handful of "optimal builds". Because it's not enough for you to spec your character and play the game the way you like. You expect that everyone else should spec and play the game the way you like as well... simply because you say they should.
Rift is set up with different options so people can find the build that suits *their* playstyle... not *yours*. Really not that difficult to understand.
You've been given the perfect solution to your quandry already in this thread: make sure you are specifically recruiting for a Healer. You'll be more likely to get someone spec'd the way you expect them to be.
I am not expecting people to SPEC or PLAY the way I expect them to when they are on their own.
When I am in a GROUP, I expect people to pull their weight. I expect people to be able to support the group if they expect the group to support them to get a reward.
Don't get so emotionally involved in this, you're confusing what I'm talking about.
EDIT: I think the issue is that people seem to take this as an insult against them. I am not insulting anyone, I'm just expecting them to pull their weight. What is wrong with that?
Once again... People are not obligated to play the way *you* think they should, or spec their classes the way *you* think they should. No matter how much you think it to be the case.
Your attitude is a perfect example of the type that turns MMOs with myriad options to play the game and reduces it down to a handful of "optimal builds". Because it's not enough for you to spec your character and play the game the way you like. You expect that everyone else should spec and play the game the way you like as well... simply because you say they should.
Rift is set up with different options so people can find the build that suits *their* playstyle... not *yours*. Really not that difficult to understand.
You've been given the perfect solution to your quandry already in this thread: make sure you are specifically recruiting for a Healer. You'll be more likely to get someone spec'd the way you expect them to be.
I am not expecting people to SPEC or PLAY the way I expect them to when they are on their own.
When I am in a GROUP, I expect people to pull their weight. I expect people to be able to support the group if they expect the group to support them to get a reward.
Don't get so emotionally involved in this, you're confusing what I'm talking about.
EDIT: I think the issue is that people seem to take this as an insult against them. I am not insulting anyone, I'm just expecting them to pull their weight. What is wrong with that?
The problem is not that they aren't "pulling their weight". The problem is that they are not pulling their weight the way you believe they should. If the DPS cleric is standing around not DPSing... that is not pulling their weight. If the Justicar cleric is not tanking... that is not pulling their weight. For either to not be HEALING? ROFL that has nothing to do with pulling their weight and everything to do with having a self-centered view where everyone else should play what you want them to.
If you need a healer, recruit one. It really is THAT simple.
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My mage has 3 roles so far: healing, DPS, different DPS.
Some nights I want to play as a healer. So I advertise myself as a healer, join groups as a healer and, well, heal.
Other nights I simply can't be arsed with the additional stress of playing a healer. On those nights I advertise myself as DPS, join groups as DPS and guess what? I DPS.
Yet other nights I don't care what I do so I advertise as both heals and DPS and perform whichever role I get invited to a group as.
There's been times when I've joined a group as DPS only to find the healer sucks and I've taken that role over, or just off-healed. There's also been times when the healer sucked and I just haven't been in the mood to take that role over...So I didn't.
Sure, 3 classes can heal, that does not give anyone the right to expect members of those classes to actually do so unless that person has specifically stated that that is there role in the group.
If you form the group you can perhaps expect somethings but in public groups you cannot talk about carrying or expectations. They are public groups you can ask if anyone wants to heal but if they don't what will you do then ? Nothing much I play tanks and healers and enjoy it but others don't and even my solo build for mage is a chloromancer build which I use so that I can rift,group and PvP with it. Only when I need to solo elites do I change the role.
I have a warrior who has a tank build which I sometimes solo in just to make sure I am well versed on the icons and I have a bard who is ranger mix which I use for rifting and solo and pvp again another role with more bard if I need to switch. Then I have a pure healer build on my cleric with a more dps soul role for my solo build. I do it but others don't and I think you should not under any circumstances try to force people by putting them in the spot it is simply not a nice thing to do. However you can ask generally that is fine but to target that is simply mean.
But the perceptions will always be there so even if the other 5 people in the rift are quiet they are all looking to the warrior to tank and the cleric to heal in a Rift even if no one says so. So in the end all this means is that if no one steps in and tries to heal or tank the rift will be timed out and you will not get to the bonus stages. I guess you play and enjoy yourself but try not to hurt other people's enjoyment too. I know some folk have argued that by them not willing to heal or tank it ruined it for the rest of the group. Well are the needs of many more worthy than the need of one even in a game for fun ?
It sounds like there's more going on than just asking people to heal. That's a pretty extreme reaction to get on a regular basis. However, to answer your question, playing roles to suit the group is better than sitting around waiting for a 4th or 5th to join the group to do an instance.
The problem is that some people aren't very good at or really don't enjoy the other roles. If someone is bad at playing a role or they really don't enjoy a role, they shouldn't be expected to play it. The downside (for them) is that they may get replaced with someone who does want to do the healing or tanking.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I don't HAVE a healing role. I played a warrior (the only class without any healing souls). I was considering rerolling cleric in order to get access to all the possible playstyles, but I quit before I could.
If you were a team player you wouldn't have picked the only base class that can't 'take one for the team' if another healer is needed.
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If you need a healer, recruit one. It really is THAT simple.
Exactly. This is a leadership issue. The leader needs to decide what his group is going to do and how they're going to do it. He then recruits people who are appropriately skilled and enthusiastic about the goal. After that, he relies on their specific skills and abilities to refine his plan so that it is optimal for that group of people.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by ArEf
I don't HAVE a healing role. I played a warrior (the only class without any healing souls). I was considering rerolling cleric in order to get access to all the possible playstyles, but I quit before I could.
If you were a team player you wouldn't have picked the only base class that can't 'take one for the team' if another healer is needed.
If they were a real team player, they would have sucked it up and kept playing. There is no "I" in team.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Too many whiny incompetent bastards around for me to EVER be a group healer. It's somehow ALWAYS the healer's fault when the manure hits the windmill, never the dickhead who caused the wipe.
Too many whiny incompetent bastards around for me to EVER be a group healer. It's somehow ALWAYS the healer's fault when the manure hits the windmill, never the dickhead who caused the wipe.
Sadly enought i ran into this too.. to many people leading groups that have no clue how other classes work. especially healers
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I am not expecting people to SPEC or PLAY the way I expect them to when they are on their own.
When I am in a GROUP, I expect people to pull their weight. I expect people to be able to support the group if they expect the group to support them to get a reward.
They support the group by playing the class or the soul they like - if they wanted to be a healer then they would not play a dps cleric soul.Even if i like to heal in mmos i can understand why some people hate healing or tanking and if they hate playing a certain role forcing them will not help anyone - you will have either an unhappy healer doing quite a bad job or you will start an argument which will solve nothing.In the end a mmo is a game not a job - people play the way they have most fun and forcing them to play classes they hate just for the "good of the group" should be a thing of the past .If you think the game lacks healers then you should play one and argue with developers to make healing more fun and interesting .
And another thing - in lot of games i saw people complaining that healing is too easy or too powerful ,then when healing is nerfed and there are less healers around complain that there are not enough healers.
I miss the old "always group" concept of EQ. and i really enjoy playing the support classes in this case. It is def something I'd like to see come back into the mmorpg market.
Easiest way to get kicked from a group is to refuse to play something that the group needs. Some may think it is harsh but I am NOT going to carry your weight around because you want to play what you want to play. I play what is needed. Usually all the choices are good enough for me.
Easiest way to get kicked from your group, not a group. Others are a lot more tolerant and flexible.
Wouldn't it make me the "tolerant and flexible" one if I am the one who is willing to play anything?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The whole point of playing a game is to ENJOY it. That is what entertainment is all about. So it defeats the purpose if I have to do something in game that i cannot enjoy.
Plus, I have to PAY for the privileges of playing. So there is really no reason I should be forced to play in a style i don't like as a PAYING CUSTOMER.
Lastly, if the fact that the OP is willing to do something he does not like in game, in no shape or form, obliges ME to do the same. If he chooses to do it .. fine but don't expect others to follow suit.
I miss the old "always group" concept of EQ. and i really enjoy playing the support classes in this case. It is def something I'd like to see come back into the mmorpg market.
There is a reason why this kind of design is out of date.
Either ...
1) you make the support class very important and people have to wait before they can find one before they can group (if you think waiting for a tank is bad in WOW now, it would be 10x worse).
2) Or you can make support class weak and not mandatory. In that case, they will not be needed and you will QQ anyway.
That is why you don't see dedicated support class in modern MMOs, except may be healing. Even dedicated healing class is harder to find now. For example, in WOW, even the priest has a dps spec.
People should play the roles they enjoy. If groups are always short a healer or something then maybe the design of the game is flawed. This is about having fun, or its supposed to be
I think you hit the nail on the head with your post and I blame the design not the player.
The majority of people on this forum "thinks" they understand game design when they don't. They just look at an existing product and derive from that.
RIFT's class system is absolutely horrid. I see why they did it, but I personally don't care for it. What you described in your post is one of the many prime reasons why that class design is flawed for a grouping game. What people don't get on this forum is that a class is a role. When there are multiple classes within archetype that usually means each class has a different function for the primary role.
When you divide up the roles as choosiable roles to make your own class under an archetype, unbalance of roles and classes take an affect. You get mismatches of roles in groups and people being stubborn because they have their own subjective way to play that role. When in reality most of the time it doesn't work because of the linear AI behavior of the tank and spank. So with that, that's why we have the trinity to compliment the AI behavior.
Another thing is, class builds are also a bad part of this design in which causes an imbalance. Class builds may allow a player to be customizable, however, they ultimately handicap your class to it's full potential. I guess class builds work for this linear AI behavior. I am taking combat and AI to the next step in which allows the player and the AI to adapt to your strategy based on an hierarchy.
Here is a good analogy for class builds. Let's say there is a Karate class. This class can have 3 builds, kicking for long term dps, punching for burst dps and sweeping for cc. If a player can choose 1-2 trees and ignore the 3rd, that would handicap a player to adapt within combat because they have one way of victory with their build. With no class builds, that allows a player to have full freedom of their class. The only restrictions should be what class you're playing and an hotbar limit. It should be up to the player to change the strategy, not the restriction of the build. That would ultimately increase a more wise player base. A way for that to happen is to essentially have a more complex combat mechanics that would complement class mechanics for adaptability purposes.
I hope you can see, that if you are looking for this style in which still kinda holds on to the holy trinity but all classes will stay true to their roles and yet be able to be different via the combat mechanics would improve this broken situation immensely.
In a holy trinity game people should play what they enjoy but they enjoy should fit the roles of the game. If you want to play a pew pew class and group than take a pew pew class.
Obviously, if you are not going to group it does not matter. There is a reason they have pew pew classes, tanking classes, and healing classes.
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Easiest way to get kicked from a group is to refuse to play something that the group needs. Some may think it is harsh but I am NOT going to carry your weight around because you want to play what you want to play. I play what is needed. Usually all the choices are good enough for me.
Easiest way to get kicked from your group, not a group. Others are a lot more tolerant and flexible.
Wouldn't it make me the "tolerant and flexible" one if I am the one who is willing to play anything?
If you're fine with being a "class chameleon" and switching to whatever role is needed on a moment's notice, then great. That's a playstyle that suits you and I'm sure it'll land you more parties in the long run. Win/win for you right?
It's not a playstyle that suits everyone. Some people really enjoy playing one or two specific classes, with one or two specific playstyles. If they prefer to play that way, then that's as much their prerogative as it is yours to switch if asked. They may get fewer parties than you, but then perhaps they're okay with that.
I know personally I would sooner wait twice as long to get a group invite and actually play a class and role I really enjoy, than to switch to doing something I don't enjoy just to get an invite faster. I brought up such an example in my FFXI reference earlier in the thread. I had people telling me regularly "you're playing wrong. Warrior is supposed to be subbed with Ninja." and wouldn't invite me. Didn't really phase me that much. I'm not playing a game to "sacrifice what I find fun" to appease someone else's expectations of "what I'm supposed to do" in their ideal setting. It took me longer than others to level up.. but I did regardless, and never had to "hate" the role I was playing, because I was always playing the role I wanted to.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The way I see it it's your x currency/month and you can do whatever the hell you want within the game's mechanics. Guilds and guild events should be based on all participants and not exclusively to accomplish a certain goal within the game i.e. advancement.
Back in the day, people joined guilds, because they liked being more connected to the people who they enjoyed playing with. For some that might be advancement, but before there was an end-game people considered personality over playing prowess.
I am not expecting people to SPEC or PLAY the way I expect them to when they are on their own.
Well, isn't that kind and thoughtful of you. I'm sure they appreciate that. (note sarcasm).
There's nothing wrong with expecting people to play the roles they're expected to in a group. However, what you keep stubbornly ignoring is the point that's been made...
If you want to insure that people in your group are prepared and willing to fulfill the roles you expect them to, then make sure you are recruiting the right people for the roles in the first place. Do not assume that because you recruit a Cleric, they are automatically going to have a healing spec avail, or are going to be willing to use one. If you do, and they aren't, then it's not *their* fault for not being prepared to do what you expect them to. It's your fault for making assumptions and not being more careful in who you invited.
If Clerics were "healers only", then you'd have a point and one not wanting to heal, ever, wouldn't make any sense. But in the sense that there are other playstyles a Cleric can fill - which they may have chosen the class specifically to play - then you simply cannot assume that Cleric = Healer. That's just common sense.
If you do some proper planning and use some basic communication before inviting people, then you don't have to worry about them not being prepared to fill the roles they were invited for.
No one is saying "people in your groups shouldn't be filling the roles they were invited for". We're saying, "you should be more specific of what role you're seeking when inviting people to your group in the first place, because then it won't be an issue".
Seriously... this is like... absolute elementary level common-sense we're talking. You are arguing a non-point now, just for the sake of arguing it.
When I am in a GROUP, I expect people to pull their weight. I expect people to be able to support the group if they expect the group to support them to get a reward.
Don't get so emotionally involved in this, you're confusing what I'm talking about.
I'm not getting emotionally involved. You, however, seem to be projecting. How about you stop trying to attack me personally for "being emotional" and just respond to what I'm saying, okay? Stop the ad hominems.
EDIT: I think the issue is that people seem to take this as an insult against them. I am not insulting anyone, I'm just expecting them to pull their weight. What is wrong with that?
Nothing... as long as - say it with me this time - you make sure you are getting someone willing and prepared to fill that role in the first place, and don't just assume they are, or will be.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If you invite someone as role x, don't expect them to be anything but role x (and be pleasantly surprised if they're nice and switch; players like myself typically will, if we're confident of the off-role's effectiveness and our ability to play it.)
People play games for fun, and while some of us have fun by making the group work and beating the dungeon because of our flexibility, others just want to DPS (or heal, or whatever.) No amount of whining is going to change things, so why complain about it at all? Just invite the appropriate roles, try to make things work as best you can, and say "Welp that's how things go sometimes" when stuff doesn't work out.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'll put it like this: People are worse players when they play a style they feel forced to or simply dont enjoy. I'm not saying they cant be decent at it, but we're all pretty much worse at things we dont want to do even if we do them "up to standard."
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All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I am not expecting people to SPEC or PLAY the way I expect them to when they are on their own.
When I am in a GROUP, I expect people to pull their weight. I expect people to be able to support the group if they expect the group to support them to get a reward.
Don't get so emotionally involved in this, you're confusing what I'm talking about.
EDIT: I think the issue is that people seem to take this as an insult against them. I am not insulting anyone, I'm just expecting them to pull their weight. What is wrong with that?
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The problem is not that they aren't "pulling their weight". The problem is that they are not pulling their weight the way you believe they should. If the DPS cleric is standing around not DPSing... that is not pulling their weight. If the Justicar cleric is not tanking... that is not pulling their weight. For either to not be HEALING? ROFL that has nothing to do with pulling their weight and everything to do with having a self-centered view where everyone else should play what you want them to.
If you need a healer, recruit one. It really is THAT simple.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I have a mage in Rift.
My mage has 3 roles so far: healing, DPS, different DPS.
Some nights I want to play as a healer. So I advertise myself as a healer, join groups as a healer and, well, heal.
Other nights I simply can't be arsed with the additional stress of playing a healer. On those nights I advertise myself as DPS, join groups as DPS and guess what? I DPS.
Yet other nights I don't care what I do so I advertise as both heals and DPS and perform whichever role I get invited to a group as.
There's been times when I've joined a group as DPS only to find the healer sucks and I've taken that role over, or just off-healed. There's also been times when the healer sucked and I just haven't been in the mood to take that role over...So I didn't.
Sure, 3 classes can heal, that does not give anyone the right to expect members of those classes to actually do so unless that person has specifically stated that that is there role in the group.
If you form the group you can perhaps expect somethings but in public groups you cannot talk about carrying or expectations. They are public groups you can ask if anyone wants to heal but if they don't what will you do then ? Nothing much I play tanks and healers and enjoy it but others don't and even my solo build for mage is a chloromancer build which I use so that I can rift,group and PvP with it. Only when I need to solo elites do I change the role.
I have a warrior who has a tank build which I sometimes solo in just to make sure I am well versed on the icons and I have a bard who is ranger mix which I use for rifting and solo and pvp again another role with more bard if I need to switch. Then I have a pure healer build on my cleric with a more dps soul role for my solo build. I do it but others don't and I think you should not under any circumstances try to force people by putting them in the spot it is simply not a nice thing to do. However you can ask generally that is fine but to target that is simply mean.
But the perceptions will always be there so even if the other 5 people in the rift are quiet they are all looking to the warrior to tank and the cleric to heal in a Rift even if no one says so. So in the end all this means is that if no one steps in and tries to heal or tank the rift will be timed out and you will not get to the bonus stages. I guess you play and enjoy yourself but try not to hurt other people's enjoyment too. I know some folk have argued that by them not willing to heal or tank it ruined it for the rest of the group. Well are the needs of many more worthy than the need of one even in a game for fun ?
It sounds like there's more going on than just asking people to heal. That's a pretty extreme reaction to get on a regular basis. However, to answer your question, playing roles to suit the group is better than sitting around waiting for a 4th or 5th to join the group to do an instance.
The problem is that some people aren't very good at or really don't enjoy the other roles. If someone is bad at playing a role or they really don't enjoy a role, they shouldn't be expected to play it. The downside (for them) is that they may get replaced with someone who does want to do the healing or tanking.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If you were a team player you wouldn't have picked the only base class that can't 'take one for the team' if another healer is needed.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Exactly. This is a leadership issue. The leader needs to decide what his group is going to do and how they're going to do it. He then recruits people who are appropriately skilled and enthusiastic about the goal. After that, he relies on their specific skills and abilities to refine his plan so that it is optimal for that group of people.
If they were a real team player, they would have sucked it up and kept playing. There is no "I" in team.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Too many whiny incompetent bastards around for me to EVER be a group healer. It's somehow ALWAYS the healer's fault when the manure hits the windmill, never the dickhead who caused the wipe.
Sadly enought i ran into this too.. to many people leading groups that have no clue how other classes work. especially healers
I challenged my reflection to a staring contest....4 days later i won
They support the group by playing the class or the soul they like - if they wanted to be a healer then they would not play a dps cleric soul.Even if i like to heal in mmos i can understand why some people hate healing or tanking and if they hate playing a certain role forcing them will not help anyone - you will have either an unhappy healer doing quite a bad job or you will start an argument which will solve nothing.In the end a mmo is a game not a job - people play the way they have most fun and forcing them to play classes they hate just for the "good of the group" should be a thing of the past .If you think the game lacks healers then you should play one and argue with developers to make healing more fun and interesting .
And another thing - in lot of games i saw people complaining that healing is too easy or too powerful ,then when healing is nerfed and there are less healers around complain that there are not enough healers.
I miss the old "always group" concept of EQ. and i really enjoy playing the support classes in this case. It is def something I'd like to see come back into the mmorpg market.
Wouldn't it make me the "tolerant and flexible" one if I am the one who is willing to play anything?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Definitely NOT.
The whole point of playing a game is to ENJOY it. That is what entertainment is all about. So it defeats the purpose if I have to do something in game that i cannot enjoy.
Plus, I have to PAY for the privileges of playing. So there is really no reason I should be forced to play in a style i don't like as a PAYING CUSTOMER.
Lastly, if the fact that the OP is willing to do something he does not like in game, in no shape or form, obliges ME to do the same. If he chooses to do it .. fine but don't expect others to follow suit.
There is a reason why this kind of design is out of date.
Either ...
1) you make the support class very important and people have to wait before they can find one before they can group (if you think waiting for a tank is bad in WOW now, it would be 10x worse).
2) Or you can make support class weak and not mandatory. In that case, they will not be needed and you will QQ anyway.
That is why you don't see dedicated support class in modern MMOs, except may be healing. Even dedicated healing class is harder to find now. For example, in WOW, even the priest has a dps spec.
People should play the roles they enjoy. If groups are always short a healer or something then maybe the design of the game is flawed. This is about having fun, or its supposed to be
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I think you hit the nail on the head with your post and I blame the design not the player.
The majority of people on this forum "thinks" they understand game design when they don't. They just look at an existing product and derive from that.
RIFT's class system is absolutely horrid. I see why they did it, but I personally don't care for it. What you described in your post is one of the many prime reasons why that class design is flawed for a grouping game. What people don't get on this forum is that a class is a role. When there are multiple classes within archetype that usually means each class has a different function for the primary role.
When you divide up the roles as choosiable roles to make your own class under an archetype, unbalance of roles and classes take an affect. You get mismatches of roles in groups and people being stubborn because they have their own subjective way to play that role. When in reality most of the time it doesn't work because of the linear AI behavior of the tank and spank. So with that, that's why we have the trinity to compliment the AI behavior.
Another thing is, class builds are also a bad part of this design in which causes an imbalance. Class builds may allow a player to be customizable, however, they ultimately handicap your class to it's full potential. I guess class builds work for this linear AI behavior. I am taking combat and AI to the next step in which allows the player and the AI to adapt to your strategy based on an hierarchy.
Here is a good analogy for class builds. Let's say there is a Karate class. This class can have 3 builds, kicking for long term dps, punching for burst dps and sweeping for cc. If a player can choose 1-2 trees and ignore the 3rd, that would handicap a player to adapt within combat because they have one way of victory with their build. With no class builds, that allows a player to have full freedom of their class. The only restrictions should be what class you're playing and an hotbar limit. It should be up to the player to change the strategy, not the restriction of the build. That would ultimately increase a more wise player base. A way for that to happen is to essentially have a more complex combat mechanics that would complement class mechanics for adaptability purposes.
I hope you can see, that if you are looking for this style in which still kinda holds on to the holy trinity but all classes will stay true to their roles and yet be able to be different via the combat mechanics would improve this broken situation immensely.
In a holy trinity game people should play what they enjoy but they enjoy should fit the roles of the game. If you want to play a pew pew class and group than take a pew pew class.
Obviously, if you are not going to group it does not matter. There is a reason they have pew pew classes, tanking classes, and healing classes.
--John Ruskin
If you're fine with being a "class chameleon" and switching to whatever role is needed on a moment's notice, then great. That's a playstyle that suits you and I'm sure it'll land you more parties in the long run. Win/win for you right?
It's not a playstyle that suits everyone. Some people really enjoy playing one or two specific classes, with one or two specific playstyles. If they prefer to play that way, then that's as much their prerogative as it is yours to switch if asked. They may get fewer parties than you, but then perhaps they're okay with that.
I know personally I would sooner wait twice as long to get a group invite and actually play a class and role I really enjoy, than to switch to doing something I don't enjoy just to get an invite faster. I brought up such an example in my FFXI reference earlier in the thread. I had people telling me regularly "you're playing wrong. Warrior is supposed to be subbed with Ninja." and wouldn't invite me. Didn't really phase me that much. I'm not playing a game to "sacrifice what I find fun" to appease someone else's expectations of "what I'm supposed to do" in their ideal setting. It took me longer than others to level up.. but I did regardless, and never had to "hate" the role I was playing, because I was always playing the role I wanted to.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The way I see it it's your x currency/month and you can do whatever the hell you want within the game's mechanics. Guilds and guild events should be based on all participants and not exclusively to accomplish a certain goal within the game i.e. advancement.
Back in the day, people joined guilds, because they liked being more connected to the people who they enjoyed playing with. For some that might be advancement, but before there was an end-game people considered personality over playing prowess.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If you invite someone as role x, don't expect them to be anything but role x (and be pleasantly surprised if they're nice and switch; players like myself typically will, if we're confident of the off-role's effectiveness and our ability to play it.)
People play games for fun, and while some of us have fun by making the group work and beating the dungeon because of our flexibility, others just want to DPS (or heal, or whatever.) No amount of whining is going to change things, so why complain about it at all? Just invite the appropriate roles, try to make things work as best you can, and say "Welp that's how things go sometimes" when stuff doesn't work out.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'll put it like this: People are worse players when they play a style they feel forced to or simply dont enjoy. I'm not saying they cant be decent at it, but we're all pretty much worse at things we dont want to do even if we do them "up to standard."
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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