I think everyone has forgotten that the primary purpose of an MMO is to generate profit. I'm not certain why some have categorized the act of generating that profit into acceptable and unacceptable forms. In the end, it really is comparing apples to oranges - but everyone's still eating a fruit.
This just goes to show the sad state of affairs we're in.
You know the original design of the monetary system is that you did something worthwhile and as a side-effect you got paid for it. That money you got paid then gave you access to the results of the worthwhile actions of others.
So you'd create an MMO with the primary purpose of entertaining the players and as a side-effect those players gave you money. So that you in turn could spend it at a baker who's primary purpose was making good bread and as a side-effect made money so he could play that MMO of yours.
But why do something worthwhile when by now the system is twisted so much that the primary purpose is making money and not providing quality.
Actually, the sad state of affairs is that there really are a hell of a lot of people that actually believe what you wrote - that these 2-5 year multi-million dollar projects were originally done as some hippy lovefest artsy freebie with monetary return just a 'side effect' of their artistic perfection. And then EvilCorpCo came and suddenly MMOs were created solely to make money and they had somehow masterminded a way to do that without offering a quality product.
From what I've seen, things are the same now they were 15 years ago - game developers doing their best to create a service that gamers will want to pay for and enjoy. I feel like I'm in the minority with that view. I saw the passion and fire that Hanna, Castoro, Garriott and many others had in the early years and I see that same fire in today's developers, a decade and a half later. You'd be hard pressed to find a game developer that wasn't first and foremost concerned with how fun and engaging the players found their game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In the end, you pay money for a P2P game. In a F2P game you don't have to in order to play, but you can if you want to get the full experience. I would think that a F2P model is far more preferable to a 10 day trial in WoW.
{mod edit}
Way more. The key is that there is no time limit and I don't have to commit enough of my play-time to get my sub-fee worth. That is why F2P is so popular. No commitment and unlmited play on limited content.
This is one of few things that makes F2P "more popular". Hell, we even have AoC, WAR and a few other P2Ps with some kind of "unlimited trial" programs.
Like i said before, i will said it now... question for eveyone, including OP is "Are you ready to spend money for the MMO you enjoy, IF you enjoy it?". If answer is negative, then maybe MMORPG isnt exactly genre for you. As for me, single-player game publishers was always more honest with what they offer. They want you to buy their box and you get the most of game for it. I will take Guild Wars for example again, for it is the ONLY MMORPG so far that says "ok, you will get almost everything here, but you need to buy our box" (if someone knows other game let me know, but no other game cant come to my mind).
At the moment, i play ( yes, i know, most hated of them all :P ) Champions Online and having pretty much fun in it. That game is the only one that have "freemium" system that allows all areas and levels for free (excluding Adventure Packs, which arent level dependent and arent much needed), dont look like a piece of junk, and thats all i need at the moment considering "free content".
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2 Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
I've never played a F2P game I liked, they are all utter garbage. To play on an even level with other people, you gota spend a bunch of cash, where as with an P2P you on that level with everyone else already.
I've never played a F2P game I liked, they are all utter garbage. To play on an even level with other people, you gota spend a bunch of cash, where as with an P2P you on that level with everyone else already.
That's probably because you were effectively trained by the marketing departments that you should pay for expansion boxes, as they meet all the complaint points that people have against item malls.
- they give an unfair advantage to those who buy it
- players should get all the content for their subscription and not be locked out of content if they don't pay an extra price
- it takes away development time from the existing developers who should be creating content thatyou are paying your 15/month for
- they are a way to squeeze extra cash out of their customers
That's a list of the big complaints against F2P content and items. They all apply to expansion boxes. When Turbine or another developer offers separate sections and lets you buy only the ones that you want, it's an evil cashgrab by greedy corporate suits. However, when Blizzard says you need to pay $30-$60 to use ANY of the new content, the anti-F2P crowd greases up and bends over.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That's a list of the big complaints against F2P content and items. They all apply to expansion boxes. When Turbine or another developer offers separate sections and lets you buy only the ones that you want, it's an evil cashgrab by greedy corporate suits. However, when Blizzard says you need to pay $30-$60 to use ANY of the new content, the anti-F2P crowd greases up and bends over.
... and crazily enough, Blizzard STILL has a cash shop.
That's why I laughed so hard in one topic where somebody was explaining that SW:TOR was a GOOD pricing plan, devoid of evil like GW2, because GW2 is going to have microtransactions.
SW:TOR you have to buy the original box (60 dollars or so, check), a sub (15 dollars per month, check), expansions (another 60 or so, check) and... well...
You can't tell me with a straight face that 'EA + Bioware' is a company combo that is morally opposed to the idea of microtransactions.
The whole P2P moral highground is eroding, since you DON'T automatically get limitless upgrades for your 15 dollars a month. I'm pretty shocked to be honest just how much 'free stuff' City of Heroes did with 20 whole episodes full of upgrades.
The bigger name P2P games all go with expansions and now most of them are also dabbling in cash shops as well.
It's a wild, wooly world out there, with people who all want your money. F2P games hardly have a monopoly on that.
I think everyone has forgotten that the primary purpose of an MMO is to generate profit. I'm not certain why some have categorized the act of generating that profit into acceptable and unacceptable forms. In the end, it really is comparing apples to oranges - but everyone's still eating a fruit.
This just goes to show the sad state of affairs we're in.
You know the original design of the monetary system is that you did something worthwhile and as a side-effect you got paid for it. That money you got paid then gave you access to the results of the worthwhile actions of others.
So you'd create an MMO with the primary purpose of entertaining the players and as a side-effect those players gave you money. So that you in turn could spend it at a baker who's primary purpose was making good bread and as a side-effect made money so he could play that MMO of yours.
But why do something worthwhile when by now the system is twisted so much that the primary purpose is making money and not providing quality.
Actually, the sad state of affairs is that there really are a hell of a lot of people that actually believe what you wrote - that these 2-5 year multi-million dollar projects were originally done as some hippy lovefest artsy freebie with monetary return just a 'side effect' of their artistic perfection. And then EvilCorpCo came and suddenly MMOs were created solely to make money and they had somehow masterminded a way to do that without offering a quality product.
From what I've seen, things are the same now they were 15 years ago - game developers doing their best to create a service that gamers will want to pay for and enjoy. I feel like I'm in the minority with that view. I saw the passion and fire that Hanna, Castoro, Garriott and many others had in the early years and I see that same fire in today's developers, a decade and a half later. You'd be hard pressed to find a game developer that wasn't first and foremost concerned with how fun and engaging the players found their game.
I do agree that we still see that spark among P2P MMO devs. I just haven't seen it at all in a non-indy F2P MMO.
I'm not saying everyone is going for the big money grabbing. But you only need look at the nearly hundreds of F2P MMOs that bring absolutely nothing new except for more outragious cash shops to know that there are quite a few developers out there trying to grab as much money with as little work as possible.
Bioware for example makes really great games. As a side-effect they really get a lot of money. They're now part of a big corp. Nothing wrong with that. Not all big corps are looking only at the money. Doesn't mean they're not looking at the money at all, but does mean they also value the quality of their products beyond their monetary returns.
But it's still a sad state of affairs that there are some big corps out there who care not at all for the state of their products and only for raking in the cash.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Quick exemple, if you cannot win against a player that uses Cash Shop, then you are being denied content. You are being denied access to the positive outcome of a battle because of an unfair and imbalanced system that gives overly significant bonuses to Cash Shop users.
It was your personal decison to compete with someone who spent money, and your personal decision to not spend money yourself. You at no point were ever denied content. If anything, you simply made a series of bad choices.
Not quite. When you PvP, you don't get to choose wether you fight players who spent Cash Shop or not. You fight whatever player appears. The only decision the player made, was to PvP. If PvP is part of the game, then it is expected to be accessible and fair.
What is so unfair about it? They pay their hard earned cash for an advantage, u choose not to. There is no one preventing you from using the cash shop. It is open to all, totally fair & transparent.
It is only unfair if you don't have a choice to compete.
Plus, if you care so much about fairness .. just go play PvE. There is no fair/unfair but only progression.
The only f2p game i currently know is league of legends, but I don't like itself to much. Others are either p2w or p2p. But my favourites are buy to play by far , like sc2 and GW2 in future (i hope so).
Quick exemple, if you cannot win against a player that uses Cash Shop, then you are being denied content. You are being denied access to the positive outcome of a battle because of an unfair and imbalanced system that gives overly significant bonuses to Cash Shop users.
It was your personal decison to compete with someone who spent money, and your personal decision to not spend money yourself. You at no point were ever denied content. If anything, you simply made a series of bad choices.
Not quite. When you PvP, you don't get to choose wether you fight players who spent Cash Shop or not. You fight whatever player appears. The only decision the player made, was to PvP. If PvP is part of the game, then it is expected to be accessible and fair.
What is so unfair about it? They pay their hard earned cash for an advantage, u choose not to. There is no one preventing you from using the cash shop. It is open to all, totally fair & transparent.
It is only unfair if you don't have a choice to compete.
Plus, if you care so much about fairness .. just go play PvE. There is no fair/unfair but only progression.
It is unfair in that the level playing-field is based around the amount of money that can be spent, rather than focusing on player-skills. Good F2Ps will offer the same level-playing field, but will offer items that will enhanced the experience without imbalancing it. OR, if they choose to offer powerfull cash shop items, they allow players to trade them in-game with other players using in-game currency.
And please, don't say such an ignorant thing as "just go play PvE". I don't want to. I don't really like PvE, but I really enjoy PvP. There are MMOs out there that offers a more balanced PvP experience, in that Cash Shop items are either irrelevant to one's success, or they can be traded with in-game currency (Dungeon Fighter Online being a very good exemple of this)
Quick exemple, if you cannot win against a player that uses Cash Shop, then you are being denied content. You are being denied access to the positive outcome of a battle because of an unfair and imbalanced system that gives overly significant bonuses to Cash Shop users.
It was your personal decison to compete with someone who spent money, and your personal decision to not spend money yourself. You at no point were ever denied content. If anything, you simply made a series of bad choices.
Not quite. When you PvP, you don't get to choose wether you fight players who spent Cash Shop or not. You fight whatever player appears. The only decision the player made, was to PvP. If PvP is part of the game, then it is expected to be accessible and fair.
What is so unfair about it? They pay their hard earned cash for an advantage, u choose not to. There is no one preventing you from using the cash shop. It is open to all, totally fair & transparent.
It is only unfair if you don't have a choice to compete.
Plus, if you care so much about fairness .. just go play PvE. There is no fair/unfair but only progression.
It is unfair in that the level playing-field is based around the amount of money that can be spent, rather than focusing on player-skills. Good F2Ps will offer the same level-playing field, but will offer items that will enhanced the experience without imbalancing it. OR, if they choose to offer powerfull cash shop items, they allow players to trade them in-game with other players using in-game currency.
By your standard, subscription MMOs are just as unfair, as most are extremely gear-dependent as well, and the level playing field is based around the amount of time that can be spent. Again, to complain your opponent spent money on gear and you didn't in a F2P is like complaining your opponent spent time raiding for better gear and you didn't.
And.. player skill? WOW is no more player skill than War Rock is - they just have different paths to their IWIN button.
If anything, the gear-dependen MMOs that use time invested as the measuring stick are the most deceitful and the most harmful MMOs, because they prey on the very common but often false belief that there is always more time to do something or that with time one can catch up. Time is just as much a commodity as money, except with money one can quickly tell when they've spent more than they can afford. With time, is usually isn't until much later that one sees how little they actually had and how much they truly wasted.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If anything, the gear-dependen MMOs that use time invested as the measuring stick are the most deceitful and the most harmful MMOs, because they prey on the very common but often false belief that there is always more time to do something or that with time one can catch up. Time is just as much a commodity as money, except with money one can quickly tell when they've spent more than they can afford. With time, is usually isn't until much later that one sees how little they actually had and how much they truly wasted.
I have a friend who last time I talked to him about it (A few months ago), he had invested over 500 days of play into WoW.
That's 500 days not as in 'I've owned the game for 500 days', but '500 days worth of actual play time according to the game's counter'.
Some people might say that shows that WoW can provide ultimate entertainment per dollar...
I just think that shows how much of a depressing waste of time WoW can be. (On the plus side, he's got the very best gear with his characters!)
If anything, the gear-dependen MMOs that use time invested as the measuring stick are the most deceitful and the most harmful MMOs, because they prey on the very common but often false belief that there is always more time to do something or that with time one can catch up. Time is just as much a commodity as money, except with money one can quickly tell when they've spent more than they can afford. With time, is usually isn't until much later that one sees how little they actually had and how much they truly wasted.
I have a friend who last time I talked to him about it (A few months ago), he had invested over 500 days of play into WoW.
That's 500 days not as in 'I've owned the game for 500 days', but '500 days worth of actual play time according to the game's counter'.
Some people might say that shows that WoW can provide ultimate entertainment per dollar...
I just think that shows how much of a depressing waste of time WoW can be. (On the plus side, he's got the very best gear with his characters!)
That's 500 days of not watching television (of which a 100 days of being drowned in commercials). I applaud the fellow
Anyway, hardcore gaming, same as doing anything else hardcore, is just another free-time sink that some people enjoy very much. I'd rather spent some hours in game to get a certain reward, than dish out a couple of bucks for it and feel no sense of reward for effort whatsoever.
I must have gamed an average of two hours per day for the last 10 years or so. Even though that is hardly casual, I think that is a number many mmorpg players can relate to. Some days you don't play at all, other days you play up to 4 hours or more.
That already makes a total of 300ish full days playing games over a ten year period! And if you factor in 8 hours of sleep a day it is more than 400 "16 hour days" spent gaming. What I'm saying is: if you have a hobby you really enjoy, the hours will add up to impressive numbers eventually.
That already makes a total of 300ish full days playing games over a ten year period! And if you factor in 8 hours of sleep a day it is more than 400 "16 hour days" spent gaming. What I'm saying is: if you have a hobby you really enjoy, the hours will add up to impressive numbers eventually.
That's not how you calculate a day though, when a game is counting how many days you played. It's 24 hours or nothing!
Plus, you act like WoW was all he was doing, or that he doesn't watch TV WHILE playing WoW. First off, he watches TV as well, AND WoW is only one of the games he plays. ... and he still managed to hit that 500 hours figure in almost half the time it took you to reach 300.
I think there is a point where something crosses over from hobby to 'unhealthy obsession'
That already makes a total of 300ish full days playing games over a ten year period! And if you factor in 8 hours of sleep a day it is more than 400 "16 hour days" spent gaming. What I'm saying is: if you have a hobby you really enjoy, the hours will add up to impressive numbers eventually.
That's not how you calculate a day though, when a game is counting how many days you played. It's 24 hours or nothing! Yeah, but next to that I wanted to project full days to actual "awake and stumbling about" timeframes. Which makes those numbers only more impressive. in the case of your friend that would have been around 625 "waking hour days" playing WOW (!)
Plus, you act like WoW was all he was doing, or that he doesn't watch TV WHILE playing WoW. First off, he watches TV as well, AND WoW is only one of the games he plays. ... and he still managed to hit that 500 hours figure in almost half the time it took you to reach 300.
I think there is a point where something crosses over from hobby to 'unhealthy obsession'
True. 500 days only playing WoW is pretty severe. There is a fine line between hardcore gaming and being obsessed with it.
Because they're never, ever "free" in any way shape or form. It's inevitable that the game will be impossible to play after a certain point without cash or that you'll need cash shops items to be able to compete in P2P or any of this sort of stuff.
Ever major "F2P" game of the past few years has done this and then made their cash shop items ridiculously expensive (hi Allods Online, with your £1,000 drop in - AT THE VERY LEAST - to get started in basic end game grouping) because they think they're clever.
How do you feel towards "F2P" models?
There are many models of F2P as well.
Some games offer items and services that make you a lot more effective in PvE, PvP, or whatever else you are doing. Other games like Guild Wars 1/2 will be F2P but wont have such things. At most it'll be more character slots per account, some visual items with no real combat value [like wedding dress] etc.
Most F2P games are actually more expensive than subscription based games. Personally they could be called "scam" games to a degree.
I havent voted in the poll because you cannot judge all F2P games the same way.
I've never played a F2P game I liked, they are all utter garbage. To play on an even level with other people, you gota spend a bunch of cash, where as with an P2P you on that level with everyone else already.
That's probably because you were effectively trained by the marketing departments that you should pay for expansion boxes, as they meet all the complaint points that people have against item malls.
- they give an unfair advantage to those who buy it
- players should get all the content for their subscription and not be locked out of content if they don't pay an extra price
- it takes away development time from the existing developers who should be creating content thatyou are paying your 15/month for
- they are a way to squeeze extra cash out of their customers
That's a list of the big complaints against F2P content and items. They all apply to expansion boxes. When Turbine or another developer offers separate sections and lets you buy only the ones that you want, it's an evil cashgrab by greedy corporate suits. However, when Blizzard says you need to pay $30-$60 to use ANY of the new content, the anti-F2P crowd greases up and bends over.
You preech about how I have been trained to buy expansions. I have bought expansions for WoW and FFXI, nothing else. Lets say then for example that the new Cataclysm content can be broken up and bought piece by piece, if you want to get to end game you gota buy up all the pieces anyway.
You have eve in your sig as well, a nice fine example of p2p without buying expansions, how about Aion, or Darkfall for that matter? Pick out only the ones that suit your terrible arguement more please.
You have eve in your sig as well, a nice fine example of p2p without buying expansions, how about Aion, or Darkfall for that matter? Pick out only the ones that suit your terrible arguement more please.
EVE cannot have paid expansion because of how the game is designed.
Darkfall is a joke and paid expansions would not be viable for similar reasons as EVE...
It is unfair in that the level playing-field is based around the amount of money that can be spent, rather than focusing on player-skills. Good F2Ps will offer the same level-playing field, but will offer items that will enhanced the experience without imbalancing it. OR, if they choose to offer powerfull cash shop items, they allow players to trade them in-game with other players using in-game currency.
By your standard, subscription MMOs are just as unfair, as most are extremely gear-dependent as well, and the level playing field is based around the amount of time that can be spent.
You fail to understand my standards. Time is perfectly fine, it is obvious that players who've spent more time will and should have an edge, but this edge remains accessible to anyone. No players are being locked out because of a Cash Shop. If they continue to play, they will eventually reach the "max" like everyone else. That's one of the major pros with P2Ps versus F2Ps. The level playing field is not based around the amount of money spent, but the time spent.
F2P Rules!!! And about what you say F2P not free at all of course they're not because you need to pay for the nicest items if you want to be strong or really work hard for it. If all games are free then how will the developers profit? Or maybe you are just ashamed since other players who dont buy items in real money are stronger than you and thats what game is all about.
The only thing that makes them playable are friends playing with you. Or if its a new concept to you (5 to 7 years).
They're all designed to make money rahter than entertain. Obviously, the goal of any company is to make money/make a living. But actually entertaining the player is at the very bottom of the priority list.
It is unfair in that the level playing-field is based around the amount of money that can be spent, rather than focusing on player-skills. Good F2Ps will offer the same level-playing field, but will offer items that will enhanced the experience without imbalancing it. OR, if they choose to offer powerfull cash shop items, they allow players to trade them in-game with other players using in-game currency.
By your standard, subscription MMOs are just as unfair, as most are extremely gear-dependent as well, and the level playing field is based around the amount of time that can be spent.
You fail to understand my standards. Time is perfectly fine, it is obvious that players who've spent more time will and should have an edge, but this edge remains accessible to anyone. No players are being locked out because of a Cash Shop. If they continue to play, they will eventually reach the "max" like everyone else. That's one of the major pros with P2Ps versus F2Ps. The level playing field is not based around the amount of money spent, but the time spent.
But time costs money. If it takes you three months to get to max level, the game has cost you more money than the person who took 1 week. The difference is that in a F2P game, heavy users have to pay more for their contribution, while in a P2P game, casual users pay more for theirs.
In the same way, a $20 all-you-can-eat buffet is a bargain for someone who can eat what would ordinarily be $40 worth of food, but is just a stomach ache for someone who would ordinarily eat $10 worth a la carte.
It is unfair in that the level playing-field is based around the amount of money that can be spent, rather than focusing on player-skills. Good F2Ps will offer the same level-playing field, but will offer items that will enhanced the experience without imbalancing it. OR, if they choose to offer powerfull cash shop items, they allow players to trade them in-game with other players using in-game currency.
By your standard, subscription MMOs are just as unfair, as most are extremely gear-dependent as well, and the level playing field is based around the amount of time that can be spent.
You fail to understand my standards. Time is perfectly fine, it is obvious that players who've spent more time will and should have an edge, but this edge remains accessible to anyone. No players are being locked out because of a Cash Shop. If they continue to play, they will eventually reach the "max" like everyone else. That's one of the major pros with P2Ps versus F2Ps. The level playing field is not based around the amount of money spent, but the time spent.
Everything you said applies to a cash shop too.
No one is locked out of the cash shop. If they continue to pay, they will eventually reach the max like everyone else. The level playing field is not based on the time spent, but the amount of money spent.
Great equalizer, my dollar is as good as yours.
Some people are time constraint. Some are money constraint. Some people have time to kill. Some people have money to kill. No difference to me.
No one is locked out of the cash shop. If they continue to pay, they will eventually reach the max like everyone else. The level playing field is not based on the time spent, but the amount of money spent.
Great equalizer, my dollar is as good as yours.
Some people are time constraint. Some are money constraint. Some people have time to kill. Some people have money to kill. No difference to me.
Players success shouldn't be decided by the amount of money spent, it's detrimental for the game's community and overall experience. Time-based success is different from Money-based success. MMORPGs where success is decided by the amount of money spent means that you are being locked out of content. An MMORPG where time is the deciding factor, all players have access to the same content without having to pay a fee, unless it's a P2P, in which case all players spends $15~/month. Of course casuals will take longer but they'll catch up eventually, and they're not locked out of content.
Both the hardcore and casual players share the same "cap". Both will reach it, albeit not at the same time, but they will not be able to surpass it. In an MMORPG where success is based around time spent, player-skill is also more important. It allows good players, casuals and hardcore alike, to have a chance at whatever they do. I'll take FFXIV's fatigue system as an exemple. The graphic shown in this video is pretty self-explanatory. Hardcore players will have an edge, in that, while they've reach the vertical cap (referring to the graphic in the video), they'll have grown horizontally also, which in most MMOs would be having more characters of different classes (unlike FFXIV where hardcore have more jobs). But that's the only edge they've got, experience earned through playing and time.
If Cash Shop is the way to success in an MMORPG, then it means that you allow any players, especially bad players, to be succesfull and roll over any players, good or bad alikes, that have chosen not to spent, or spent as much money. It creates a heavily imbalanced game, which often denies content to other players.
They are significantly different from each other, the former (time) does not have constraint, as everything remains accessible. The latter (money), has a very large constraint and affects the game on all levels (and I'm not talking about character levels).
Originally posted by MadnessRealm MMORPGs where success is decided by the amount of money spent means that you are being locked out of content.
P2P in 6 months time span:
No-lifer will reach the end game in 1 month, for 90 USD. Gamer with time constraint will reach the end game in 6 months, for 90 USD(6 months sub).
F2P in 6 months time span:
No-lifer will reach the end game content in 6 months, for 0 USD but still save 90 USD that can spend in Cash shop. Gamer with time constraint will reach the end game in 1 month, for 90 USD.
No one is being locked out of content. In P2P games the easiest way to end game is through time investment while F2P favors money for easiest access to end game.
F2P model is simply better, more flexible, more scalable and in some cases it can offer better revenue.
Comments
Actually, the sad state of affairs is that there really are a hell of a lot of people that actually believe what you wrote - that these 2-5 year multi-million dollar projects were originally done as some hippy lovefest artsy freebie with monetary return just a 'side effect' of their artistic perfection. And then EvilCorpCo came and suddenly MMOs were created solely to make money and they had somehow masterminded a way to do that without offering a quality product.
From what I've seen, things are the same now they were 15 years ago - game developers doing their best to create a service that gamers will want to pay for and enjoy. I feel like I'm in the minority with that view. I saw the passion and fire that Hanna, Castoro, Garriott and many others had in the early years and I see that same fire in today's developers, a decade and a half later. You'd be hard pressed to find a game developer that wasn't first and foremost concerned with how fun and engaging the players found their game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is one of few things that makes F2P "more popular". Hell, we even have AoC, WAR and a few other P2Ps with some kind of "unlimited trial" programs.
Like i said before, i will said it now... question for eveyone, including OP is "Are you ready to spend money for the MMO you enjoy, IF you enjoy it?". If answer is negative, then maybe MMORPG isnt exactly genre for you. As for me, single-player game publishers was always more honest with what they offer. They want you to buy their box and you get the most of game for it. I will take Guild Wars for example again, for it is the ONLY MMORPG so far that says "ok, you will get almost everything here, but you need to buy our box" (if someone knows other game let me know, but no other game cant come to my mind).
At the moment, i play ( yes, i know, most hated of them all :P ) Champions Online and having pretty much fun in it. That game is the only one that have "freemium" system that allows all areas and levels for free (excluding Adventure Packs, which arent level dependent and arent much needed), dont look like a piece of junk, and thats all i need at the moment considering "free content".
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
I've never played a F2P game I liked, they are all utter garbage. To play on an even level with other people, you gota spend a bunch of cash, where as with an P2P you on that level with everyone else already.
That's probably because you were effectively trained by the marketing departments that you should pay for expansion boxes, as they meet all the complaint points that people have against item malls.
- they give an unfair advantage to those who buy it
- players should get all the content for their subscription and not be locked out of content if they don't pay an extra price
- it takes away development time from the existing developers who should be creating content thatyou are paying your 15/month for
- they are a way to squeeze extra cash out of their customers
That's a list of the big complaints against F2P content and items. They all apply to expansion boxes. When Turbine or another developer offers separate sections and lets you buy only the ones that you want, it's an evil cashgrab by greedy corporate suits. However, when Blizzard says you need to pay $30-$60 to use ANY of the new content, the anti-F2P crowd greases up and bends over.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
... and crazily enough, Blizzard STILL has a cash shop.
That's why I laughed so hard in one topic where somebody was explaining that SW:TOR was a GOOD pricing plan, devoid of evil like GW2, because GW2 is going to have microtransactions.
SW:TOR you have to buy the original box (60 dollars or so, check), a sub (15 dollars per month, check), expansions (another 60 or so, check) and... well...
You can't tell me with a straight face that 'EA + Bioware' is a company combo that is morally opposed to the idea of microtransactions.
The whole P2P moral highground is eroding, since you DON'T automatically get limitless upgrades for your 15 dollars a month. I'm pretty shocked to be honest just how much 'free stuff' City of Heroes did with 20 whole episodes full of upgrades.
The bigger name P2P games all go with expansions and now most of them are also dabbling in cash shops as well.
It's a wild, wooly world out there, with people who all want your money. F2P games hardly have a monopoly on that.
I do agree that we still see that spark among P2P MMO devs. I just haven't seen it at all in a non-indy F2P MMO.
I'm not saying everyone is going for the big money grabbing. But you only need look at the nearly hundreds of F2P MMOs that bring absolutely nothing new except for more outragious cash shops to know that there are quite a few developers out there trying to grab as much money with as little work as possible.
Bioware for example makes really great games. As a side-effect they really get a lot of money. They're now part of a big corp. Nothing wrong with that. Not all big corps are looking only at the money. Doesn't mean they're not looking at the money at all, but does mean they also value the quality of their products beyond their monetary returns.
But it's still a sad state of affairs that there are some big corps out there who care not at all for the state of their products and only for raking in the cash.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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What is so unfair about it? They pay their hard earned cash for an advantage, u choose not to. There is no one preventing you from using the cash shop. It is open to all, totally fair & transparent.
It is only unfair if you don't have a choice to compete.
Plus, if you care so much about fairness .. just go play PvE. There is no fair/unfair but only progression.
The only f2p game i currently know is league of legends, but I don't like itself to much. Others are either p2w or p2p. But my favourites are buy to play by far
, like sc2 and GW2 in future (i hope so).
It is unfair in that the level playing-field is based around the amount of money that can be spent, rather than focusing on player-skills. Good F2Ps will offer the same level-playing field, but will offer items that will enhanced the experience without imbalancing it. OR, if they choose to offer powerfull cash shop items, they allow players to trade them in-game with other players using in-game currency.
And please, don't say such an ignorant thing as "just go play PvE". I don't want to. I don't really like PvE, but I really enjoy PvP. There are MMOs out there that offers a more balanced PvP experience, in that Cash Shop items are either irrelevant to one's success, or they can be traded with in-game currency (Dungeon Fighter Online being a very good exemple of this)
By your standard, subscription MMOs are just as unfair, as most are extremely gear-dependent as well, and the level playing field is based around the amount of time that can be spent. Again, to complain your opponent spent money on gear and you didn't in a F2P is like complaining your opponent spent time raiding for better gear and you didn't.
And.. player skill? WOW is no more player skill than War Rock is - they just have different paths to their IWIN button.
If anything, the gear-dependen MMOs that use time invested as the measuring stick are the most deceitful and the most harmful MMOs, because they prey on the very common but often false belief that there is always more time to do something or that with time one can catch up. Time is just as much a commodity as money, except with money one can quickly tell when they've spent more than they can afford. With time, is usually isn't until much later that one sees how little they actually had and how much they truly wasted.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have a friend who last time I talked to him about it (A few months ago), he had invested over 500 days of play into WoW.
That's 500 days not as in 'I've owned the game for 500 days', but '500 days worth of actual play time according to the game's counter'.
Some people might say that shows that WoW can provide ultimate entertainment per dollar...
I just think that shows how much of a depressing waste of time WoW can be.
(On the plus side, he's got the very best gear with his characters!)
That's 500 days of not watching television (of which a 100 days of being drowned in commercials). I applaud the fellow
Anyway, hardcore gaming, same as doing anything else hardcore, is just another free-time sink that some people enjoy very much. I'd rather spent some hours in game to get a certain reward, than dish out a couple of bucks for it and feel no sense of reward for effort whatsoever.
I must have gamed an average of two hours per day for the last 10 years or so. Even though that is hardly casual, I think that is a number many mmorpg players can relate to. Some days you don't play at all, other days you play up to 4 hours or more.
That already makes a total of 300ish full days playing games over a ten year period! And if you factor in 8 hours of sleep a day it is more than 400 "16 hour days" spent gaming. What I'm saying is: if you have a hobby you really enjoy, the hours will add up to impressive numbers eventually.
My brand new bloggity blog.
That's not how you calculate a day though, when a game is counting how many days you played. It's 24 hours or nothing!
Plus, you act like WoW was all he was doing, or that he doesn't watch TV WHILE playing WoW.
First off, he watches TV as well, AND WoW is only one of the games he plays. ... and he still managed to hit that 500 hours figure in almost half the time it took you to reach 300.
I think there is a point where something crosses over from hobby to 'unhealthy obsession'
True. 500 days only playing WoW is pretty severe. There is a fine line between hardcore gaming and being obsessed with it.
My brand new bloggity blog.
There are many models of F2P as well.
Some games offer items and services that make you a lot more effective in PvE, PvP, or whatever else you are doing. Other games like Guild Wars 1/2 will be F2P but wont have such things. At most it'll be more character slots per account, some visual items with no real combat value [like wedding dress] etc.
Most F2P games are actually more expensive than subscription based games. Personally they could be called "scam" games to a degree.
I havent voted in the poll because you cannot judge all F2P games the same way.
No, they are not. For vast majority of F2P players, F2P games are simply free. In average, it is like 2 USD per player and month.
You also need to check what scam actually means if you intent to use that word.
You preech about how I have been trained to buy expansions. I have bought expansions for WoW and FFXI, nothing else. Lets say then for example that the new Cataclysm content can be broken up and bought piece by piece, if you want to get to end game you gota buy up all the pieces anyway.
You have eve in your sig as well, a nice fine example of p2p without buying expansions, how about Aion, or Darkfall for that matter? Pick out only the ones that suit your terrible arguement more please.
EVE cannot have paid expansion because of how the game is designed.
Darkfall is a joke and paid expansions would not be viable for similar reasons as EVE...
Aion, iirc the Assault expansion is for 30 EUR.
You fail to understand my standards. Time is perfectly fine, it is obvious that players who've spent more time will and should have an edge, but this edge remains accessible to anyone. No players are being locked out because of a Cash Shop. If they continue to play, they will eventually reach the "max" like everyone else. That's one of the major pros with P2Ps versus F2Ps. The level playing field is not based around the amount of money spent, but the time spent.
F2P Rules!!! And about what you say F2P not free at all of course they're not because you need to pay for the nicest items if you want to be strong or really work hard for it. If all games are free then how will the developers profit? Or maybe you are just ashamed since other players who dont buy items in real money are stronger than you and thats what game is all about.
Both P2P and F2P mmos suck.
The only thing that makes them playable are friends playing with you. Or if its a new concept to you (5 to 7 years).
They're all designed to make money rahter than entertain. Obviously, the goal of any company is to make money/make a living. But actually entertaining the player is at the very bottom of the priority list.
But time costs money. If it takes you three months to get to max level, the game has cost you more money than the person who took 1 week. The difference is that in a F2P game, heavy users have to pay more for their contribution, while in a P2P game, casual users pay more for theirs.
In the same way, a $20 all-you-can-eat buffet is a bargain for someone who can eat what would ordinarily be $40 worth of food, but is just a stomach ache for someone who would ordinarily eat $10 worth a la carte.
Everything you said applies to a cash shop too.
No one is locked out of the cash shop. If they continue to pay, they will eventually reach the max like everyone else. The level playing field is not based on the time spent, but the amount of money spent.
Great equalizer, my dollar is as good as yours.
Some people are time constraint. Some are money constraint. Some people have time to kill. Some people have money to kill. No difference to me.
Players success shouldn't be decided by the amount of money spent, it's detrimental for the game's community and overall experience. Time-based success is different from Money-based success. MMORPGs where success is decided by the amount of money spent means that you are being locked out of content. An MMORPG where time is the deciding factor, all players have access to the same content without having to pay a fee, unless it's a P2P, in which case all players spends $15~/month. Of course casuals will take longer but they'll catch up eventually, and they're not locked out of content.
Both the hardcore and casual players share the same "cap". Both will reach it, albeit not at the same time, but they will not be able to surpass it. In an MMORPG where success is based around time spent, player-skill is also more important. It allows good players, casuals and hardcore alike, to have a chance at whatever they do. I'll take FFXIV's fatigue system as an exemple. The graphic shown in this video is pretty self-explanatory. Hardcore players will have an edge, in that, while they've reach the vertical cap (referring to the graphic in the video), they'll have grown horizontally also, which in most MMOs would be having more characters of different classes (unlike FFXIV where hardcore have more jobs). But that's the only edge they've got, experience earned through playing and time.
If Cash Shop is the way to success in an MMORPG, then it means that you allow any players, especially bad players, to be succesfull and roll over any players, good or bad alikes, that have chosen not to spent, or spent as much money. It creates a heavily imbalanced game, which often denies content to other players.
They are significantly different from each other, the former (time) does not have constraint, as everything remains accessible. The latter (money), has a very large constraint and affects the game on all levels (and I'm not talking about character levels).
P2P in 6 months time span:
No-lifer will reach the end game in 1 month, for 90 USD.
Gamer with time constraint will reach the end game in 6 months, for 90 USD(6 months sub).
F2P in 6 months time span:
No-lifer will reach the end game content in 6 months, for 0 USD but still save 90 USD that can spend in Cash shop.
Gamer with time constraint will reach the end game in 1 month, for 90 USD.
No one is being locked out of content. In P2P games the easiest way to end game is through time investment while F2P favors money for easiest access to end game.
F2P model is simply better, more flexible, more scalable and in some cases it can offer better revenue.