Originally posted by Erillion --> First of all .... if you check the SWG section of this forum you will see that I am one of the most active supporters of SWG and the combat revamp, so these comments are not from a SWG flamer or hater, but from a realistic SWG veteran. I responded to what you said, not your status.
--> Take a look at this SOE response : "This means the Combat Upgrade's publish pacing is not dictated by the calendar, but by how it evolves in the testing and tuning process." - Thunderheart, 10/28/2004 That quote was written six months prior to the CU's publish. First, it's absurd to think that the situation wouldn't change over time especially with new internal reoganization in Dec. Second, around January, they announced that the CU publish was more ambitious and far reaching than they had previously planned - they probably had every intention to finish before RotW was even announced, but things change. --> Try not to laugh. It seems to me that the developer/coder team had little to say about deadlines. It seems very much like marketing has dictated the schedule for 2 years now, and it sure has not given SWG a good name or rep. Having worked in the game industry, yup, that's exactly how it works. FOR ALL GAMES. Hardly a black mark specifically against SOE. --> Consistently the patches and expansions in 2004 and 2005 have been pushed out too soon onto live servers, with A LOT of testing still to be done. It seems to me and many others here that SWG is in great need of a larger or more professional in house QA department that catches more problems sooner (already in Alpha testing). I would exclude the first 3 months of 2005 where we did see great progress in bug fixing. That first 3 months included an internal reoganization and increased staff - and that staff hasn't gone anywhere. With the release of both the CU and RotW, they've had their hands FULL. Very few companies, even the large ones, can handle such a large amount of new and changed content in such a short amount of time. They didn't excel, but they did okay, and now that it's out and the ex-crunch time vacations are out of the way, I'm sure the bug fixes will get moving just fine. --> I have not seen any compensation from SOE (days added to subscription) for the days servers where offline (most recently patch 17 comes to mind, but some servers lost a week after the CU patch). Other gaming corps like those running WoW or EVE are adding days to player subscription. Double XP is nice, but when 30 % of mission targets are disappearing or are of incorrect level or are invulnerable, than double XP of 1 XP or nil is not breathtaking. Double XP - both times - have been compensation. It may not be to your preference, but it has been compensation none the less, so please try to avoid saying "I have not seen any compensation", because it's complete bullshit. They had no legal reason to provide ANY compensation at all, and they did, and you complain that it isn't enough? Let's not forget the CU plaque, which isn't much, but it's an item that won't ever be found again. They can't give extra days. I'm on a station pass, which means I pay a little bit extra to be able to play EQ2 as well. Lots of players have it as well. If they gave an extra day, would I get an extra day of EQ2 too? The logistics of extra time may require a significant upgrade to the billing system. I'm happy with double XP, which progressed my character farther and quicker than another single day ever would. --> What we would like to see are honest answers. When the EVE team lost their server (there is only one for 55k players) for a full day, they posted a detailed article for all players to read in the log in screen ... with all the shameful things that went wrong. And they apologized after explaining. And they compensated one extra day. And player flaming was MINIMAL ... because if you KNOW what happened and UNDERSTAND, you dont mind as much as when you are left in the dark or fed some PR crap. But you wouldn't understand. I mean, is it a secret that they tried to get the CU out before RotW, which in turn was deadlined for the new Star Wars movie? I mean, it's obvious why they rushed it, and they had damn good reason to do it too. Every day past SW3's release, they stood to lose thousands of potential new players as the hype faded. But do you understand this? No, you just go, it was rushed out the door!!! Bad SOE! You hate your customers!! I think you think that any business reason wouldn't be satisfactory at all, so no, I don't think you'd understand if they came right out and said it - not that they have to.
--> Why not listening to the profession correspondents then, who not only compiled once, but maybe 10 times already detailed, priorized to-do lists ? Listening to 30 people is much easier than to 300k players. And some of the non-correspondents have drafted detailed, constructive, well-thought out design papers for enhancements to the game ... which the correspondents tried to bring to the attention of the dev team.
They just banned one correspondant for trolling. They don't all have halos around their head. They are still players, and their interests are still intensely selfish. I believe many of them were testing the CU before it went on test, and had made many contributions to the CU ahead of time. Not all suggestions are feasible, and certainly not all suggestions are good, and of course, not all suggestions are within the scope of the project.
--> Why did you not do CU Alpha testing with the chosen sandbox teams ?
Duh. Time. They had a deadline and needed to get it tested as broadly and quickly as possible. The sandbox teams would've been a nice luxery, but it just wasn't possible with the new expansion coming out so soon.
--> Many were doing it constructively. And no one listened. And no one seemed to care. And some representatives at fan gatherings speaking about "only 50 people dont like CU" did not help either. So people got more radical in their means of expression.
When 10,000 voices scream out, how exactly the expect to hear just the good ones? They don't have the time to sift through the flames to find the diamonds in the rough. Honestly, I've read well constructed anti-CU posts, but I thought they were approaching the problem from a different perspective than the team wanted - meaning that it was practically useless in most respects. They can't hear you if everybody talks at once - and everybody was screaming at the top of their lungs. If SOE put on earmuffs, are you really going to blame them? I have no reason to expect that this kind of behavior would continue once the angry throng has had the time to cool down.
--> no opinion is not automatically a positive opinion. You lost thousands of players , many having never posted on forums at all.
No opinion is no opinion, positive or negative. Why should the no opinion players have to suffer the angry spamming of players around the starports?
--> Many people here think you tried hard, then ran out of time and then had to implement what some called an "angry bag with varying skins" design. And an abitrary level difference based modifier that totally dominates the combat system and makes quality of skills, weapons, armor almost irrelevant. And one fact has been obvious ... none of the planets made it into live servers with ANY balancing passes .. as the many level 100-300 mobs one-hit incapping everyone in the first post-Cu weeks showed us. I am not sure if they are all gone til now (--> Corvette boarding quests are unplayable because of it with level 194 Super Battle Droids).
First, armor and weapons do matter a great deal. You won't get far with a CDEF rifle. Second, the CU has been getting more and more balanced with every hotfix and publish. How long are you going to hold a grudge against something which is no longer a problem?
--> We never had problems with levels. They have been in the game for years now. But the new level difference based modifier dominating everything at the moment ... making quality of equipment more or less irrelevant (which caused A LOT of anger amongst the crafter population) ... which the developers introduced hasty and late in testing ... THAT has caused an insane amount of wailing and teeth gnashing and despair. It just does not fit as well as it should be.
I agree that it could fit a little better. They did retrofit a new system back on something that wasn't entirely designed for it. However, I will say that I do like it, so we'll chalk combat level up to personal preference and not some innate and inalienable flaw in the system.
--> After 2 YEARS !!! you can expect SOME balance. Difficult or not, people have been VERY patient with the dev team. And SWG is STILL a huge beta test that people pay for.
To be fair, the CU was a SIGNIFICANT change design solely to deal with these balance issues. In many ways, they succeeded. It just needs a little fine tuning.
--> There ARE professional tools for that. Are they used ? There ARE professional QA teams for that. Are they employed to do SWG testing ? There are international quality standards in the software industry .. has the team been certified in any of those standards which WILL improve product quality !?
I think you'll find that game development is about ten years behind other software engineering - not just at SOE, but in general. The reason I left the industry is precisely for this reason. Concepts like design patterns and refactoring, which are old and practically basic, are absolutely foreign to game development houses. This is changing. But again, this is hardly a mark against SOE specifically and more a charge against the game industry at large.
--> That I believe 100 %. That you dont succeed as you should tells me that your team is too small or underfunded or both. Which means Sony or Lucasarts or both are milking too much profit out of SWG and standards suffer. Which is a problem of management, not the coders.
I think the problem at first was that the game was forced out the door before it was ready. It took the first year just to deliver mounts, player cities, vehicles, and space - and it was obvious that this content was more important than bug fixes. Then, once that was done, they noticed how badly damaged the rest of the game was, and the Live Team just wasn't going to be fixing it alone. So they hired new people and decided to redesign combat.
The major problem was that they had two MAJOR releases (the CU and RotW) and a nearly impossible deadline to meet. Like I said, even the largest software development houses would have a hard time doing two major projects that directly impacted each other at the same time and on such a small schedule. They were understaffed to do it - completely and totally.
However, it's done now. I don't expect another change in the same scope as the CU, perhaps ever again. We should continue to see new expansions twice a year, and they should be able to handle that just fine. They bit off more than they could chew, but they did the best with what they had under nearly impossible circumstances, and I don't think enough people give them credit for that.
It WILL get better. They've topped the peak. The hardest part is behind us, and with a larger team and new focus on content, I think we'll be seeing SWG get even better with every publish and expansion. The CU is done and over with, and any complaints you have now are simply grudges that you won't let go. If you look forward and see where SWG can go now, it's really quite awesome.
I have to admit. When the combat upgrade first came along I was rather upset. It seems like they just tossed us crafters, doctors and entertainers aside. I never cared much for combat in the game before so I stuck to those three things. It seemed like they messed everything up and they wouldn't even let us respec our stuff for the most part, only the combat people could but they messed our professions up. But later when they decided to let everyone respec and gave me back lost skills I had surrendered, I decided to give combat a try. I was surprised to find that I anjoyed it and also I still enjoy crafting too. Entertainers and doctors I don't care much for anymore though But all and all I think it could turn out pretty good
It seems we both agree that SWG would have had a lot less drama with a larger team, better management and less pressure from marketing deadlines (WoW ... pun intended :-) . So I wont go into detail about those remarks.
Originally posted by Squidi
That quote was written six months prior to the CU's publish. First, it's absurd to think that the situation wouldn't change over time especially with new internal reoganization in Dec. ---> The quote was chosen as a demonstration of a basic problem that has plagued SWG since summer 2003. Things change, but players expect to see promises kept when announced ... they forgive one or two broken promises. But after the 30th broken promise, patience is wearing thin. They didn't excel, but they did okay, and now that it's out and the ex-crunch time vacations are out of the way, I'm sure the bug fixes will get moving just fine. --> I really really hope that is true. If its like the first quarter of 2005, they will do fine. Double XP - both times - have been compensation. It may not be to your preference, but it has been compensation none the less, so please try to avoid saying "I have not seen any compensation", because it's complete bullshit. They had no legal reason to provide ANY compensation at all, and they did, and you complain that it isn't enough? Let's not forget the CU plaque, which isn't much, but it's an item that won't ever be found again. --> The plaque has been considered an affrond by almost everyone I know, so that is a bad example you mention here. I am no legal expert, but I do pay for the availability of the game servers. If they are not available and this could have been avoided by better quality management, then SOE is responsible. I am perfectly aware that the billing system is not trivial. But if Blizzard can do it for 1.5 million subscribers, then its certainly not impossible. Concerning the station pass ... I am quite sure the station pass subscribers (even when playing other SOE games) have been loyal enough over time through thick and thin of bugs and imbalances to have EARNED an extra day or two. Which - YES - cuts into the bottom line. But it would go a long way to improve SOE's reputation, which IS tarnished for sure. Every day past SW3's release, they stood to lose thousands of potential new players as the hype faded. But do you understand this? No, Oh, I perfectly understand this. But they also HAVE lost thousands of players BECAUSE they launched it too early. And even 2 weeks more testing (and that WAS a possible margin between CU and launch of Episode III and launch of Total Experience box) would have done a lot of good. And it would ALSO have resulted in a LOT LESS bad word of mouth.
They just banned one correspondant for trolling. They don't all have halos around their head. They are still players, and their interests are still intensely selfish. I believe many of them were testing the CU before it went on test, and had made many contributions to the CU ahead of time.
None of them was able to test CU before it hit Test Center. They only were able to give some written comments on the documentation. I am not talking about specific correspondents and the one you mention was certainly an exception ... i am talking about the many insightful, constructive ideas and design documents submitted by this group of people to the dev team. Not once but multiple times since 2003. That included anything from priorized bug fixing lists to detailed design documents.
Not all suggestions are feasible, and certainly not all suggestions are good, and of course, not all suggestions are within the scope of the project.
Perfectly true, and the correspondents are aware of that. But can you name me three suggestions (of hundreds) that have been taken from correspondent input and implemented ?
When 10,000 voices scream out, how exactly the expect to hear just the good ones?
We have travelled that road already. I am talking about 40 odd VERY dedicated very knowledgable correspondents ready and eager to give input. Not the white noise of 10000 players. The correspondents have already filtered down that noise to the highest priority issues.
First, armor and weapons do matter a great deal. You won't get far with a CDEF rifle.
I am not talking about the difference between a T21 rifle and a CDEF rifle. I am talking (as an example) about the difference between a rifle made with crap resources and one made with the best resources ever spawned. The GOOD crafters pride themselves in delivering THE BEST possible product - and the reason to deliver the best has been taken from them. THATS why so many crafters have left the game (besides the one hit killing on harvester duty).
When the quality difference is maybe 30 % ... and the level difference based modifier is around 150 % for a difference of 5 levels (e.g. fighter is level 80 and nightsister is level 85), then that modifier totally dominates the game. For all its worth the fighter could use the cheapest, most crappy T21 and at best the difference in fighting would be 1 more minute fight duration (if he is successful, which he will be , no matter what kind of T21 he is using if he knows what he is doing).
Second, the CU has been getting more and more balanced with every hotfix and publish. How long are you going to hold a grudge against something which is no longer a problem?
If you care to read this or many other forum webpages, you will see that this is VERY MUCH a problem STILL. Those who like SWG are continually defending SWG against the posts of those being frustrated because of that problem. And a lot of what they say IS true and we can only ask them to be patient because "things WILL be fixed". But many things have not been fixed for 2 years now, and thats where we run out of arguments, you see ?!
This is not the SOE forum where threads are simply deleted. Here (or at SWG Vault, or SWG Warcry or SWG Stratics etc.) you have to FACE THE MUSIC and prevail. And instill a positive attitude in the community.
I agree that it could fit a little better. They did retrofit a new system back on something that wasn't entirely designed for it. However, I will say that I do like it, so we'll chalk combat level up to personal preference and not some innate and inalienable flaw in the system.
Please, understand, we are not talking about the flaw in the concept of combat LEVEL here. Its the flaw of the LEVEL DIFFERENCE MODIFIER .. which is a huge and important difference. THAT has caused a lot of the problems and a lot of the outcry we saw about the combat revamp.
I think you'll find that game development is about ten years behind other software engineering - not just at SOE, but in general. The reason I left the industry is precisely for this reason. Concepts like design patterns and refactoring, which are old and practically basic, are absolutely foreign to game development houses. This is changing. But again, this is hardly a mark against SOE specifically and more a charge against the game industry at large.
True. And its absolutely time that SOE starts to lead the gaming industry concerning better quality like they did lead the MMORPG market for long years. Take their strongest competitor .. Blizzard. The company HAS a strong, GOOD reputation for quality. Not entirely true (as especially WoW shows), but still .. its there.
It would also be good for SOE's bottom line to have or surpass such a reputation and attract another 2 million gamers to SWG or their next smash hit game. That it needs a kick into the marbles like an emerging competitor taking the number one position from them, THAT is what should fill Sony execs with shame and let them reach for the white paper and wakishashi.
The major problem was that they had two MAJOR releases (the CU and RotW) and a nearly impossible deadline to meet.
Amen to that !
They were understaffed to do it - completely and totally.
Everyone knew that and said so. The player base is not blind ! You should have seen the many posts praising the dev team, but in the same breath condemning high level management.
They bit off more than they could chew, but they did the best with what they had under nearly impossible circumstances, and I don't think enough people give them credit for that.
See above. The team has often been called (too) hard working. The outrage was very much about putting both team and player base in such a position when it was not really necessary. The extra workforce hired in summer 2004 instead of around X-Mas, when the holocron insanity became the obvious desaster it was, would have enabled us to avoid most of the current problems.
It WILL get better. They've topped the peak. The hardest part is behind us, and with a larger team and new focus on content, I think we'll be seeing SWG get even better with every publish and expansion. The CU is done and over with, and any complaints you have now are simply grudges that you won't let go. If you look forward and see where SWG can go now, it's really quite awesome.
Thats the party line we preach daily on this and other forums. However, the critics have a 2 year history of broken promises and "topped peaks just being the foothills of the REAL mountains" to throw at us. And its not getting easier to answer them, especially as SOE tries the old "There is no problem !" approach. That knife has been dull for over a year now and just wont cut it anymore !
---> The quote was chosen as a demonstration of a basic problem that has plagued SWG since summer 2003. Things change, but players expect to see promises kept when announced ... they forgive one or two broken promises. But after the 30th broken promise, patience is wearing thin.
You have to understand that not every comment, brainstorm, or idea is a PROMISE. They have included us in their thinking process, and this process changes and take time. A year ago, people were complaining that the CU was a broken promise, but they delivered... and now people are complaining that it wasn't what they promised (though I think they hit the major points rather well). These aren't promises. These are plans, and plans change. The only way to avoid this would be for them never to tell us anything, and by golly, that is a worse alternative, even with excessive bitching being ever present now.
--> The plaque has been considered an affrond by almost everyone I know, so that is a bad example you mention here.
I like my plaque, so again, we'll put the value at personal preference, but the fact that they rewarded us when they didn't have to still stands.
I am no legal expert, but I do pay for the availability of the game servers. If they are not available and this could have been avoided by better quality management, then SOE is responsible. I am perfectly aware that the billing system is not trivial. But if Blizzard can do it for 1.5 million subscribers, then its certainly not impossible. Concerning the station pass ... I am quite sure the station pass subscribers (even when playing other SOE games) have been loyal enough over time through thick and thin of bugs and imbalances to have EARNED an extra day or two. Which - YES - cuts into the bottom line. But it would go a long way to improve SOE's reputation, which IS tarnished for sure.
I'm not sure an extra day's gameplay would make all that big of a difference to the bottom line. I'm sure that if they had it within their currently power to give it, they likely would have. As for us station pass people, we already get free adventure packs, extra EQ2 character slots, and a free subscription to SOE Worlds - we get more than enough benefits for our loyalty.
Oh, I perfectly understand this. But they also HAVE lost thousands of players BECAUSE they launched it too early. And even 2 weeks more testing (and that WAS a possible margin between CU and launch of Episode III and launch of Total Experience box) would have done a lot of good. And it would ALSO have resulted in a LOT LESS bad word of mouth.
It's possible, and I'm sure they weighed the possibility - but something tells me that marketing had more to do with this decision than the developers did.
None of them was able to test CU before it hit Test Center. They only were able to give some written comments on the documentation. I am not talking about specific correspondents and the one you mention was certainly an exception ... i am talking about the many insightful, constructive ideas and design documents submitted by this group of people to the dev team. Not once but multiple times since 2003. That included anything from priorized bug fixing lists to detailed design documents.
I've seen some of their bug lists in the profession forums I frequent. Some of them are vital bugs, but may not be easily fixed. Some of these bugs are "would be nice if" and some of them are balance issues they wanted to see addressed. Much of that stuff is out of the scope of the CU and would have to be addressed later anyway. It seems to me, they wanted to fix bugs with their professions, but the developers wanted to fix bugs that affected the entire game first. Balancing always comes after the showstoppers are gone.
Perfectly true, and the correspondents are aware of that. But can you name me three suggestions (of hundreds) that have been taken from correspondent input and implemented ?
No, but I can name you three bugs that I /bugged on Test Center that were fixed before the CU went live...
We have travelled that road already. I am talking about 40 odd VERY dedicated very knowledgable correspondents ready and eager to give input. Not the white noise of 10000 players. The correspondents have already filtered down that noise to the highest priority issues.
The fact is, listening to those guys wasn't a priority. They were trying to launch two rather significant additions to the game AT THE SAME TIME. There will be time to address their concerns soon, but right now, some concerns are more important.
If you care to read this or many other forum webpages, you will see that this is VERY MUCH a problem STILL. Those who like SWG are continually defending SWG against the posts of those being frustrated because of that problem. And a lot of what they say IS true and we can only ask them to be patient because "things WILL be fixed". But many things have not been fixed for 2 years now, and thats where we run out of arguments, you see ?!
As I said previously, their focus for pretty much the first year was mounts, vehicles, player cities and space. Their focus for the second year was the CU and RotW. I don't know what their focus is now, but they've finally delivered on all the things they actually did promise - they've made SWG the game it should've been when it launched. They got a much larger team now, with different priorities, so I think we'll start seeing some heavy improvements over the next few months.
Please, understand, we are not talking about the flaw in the concept of combat LEVEL here. Its the flaw of the LEVEL DIFFERENCE MODIFIER .. which is a huge and important difference. THAT has caused a lot of the problems and a lot of the outcry we saw about the combat revamp.
I've gotten used to it, and what can I say? It doesn't bother me at all. It's different, yes, and takes some getting used to, but it is hardly a deal breaker.
True. And its absolutely time that SOE starts to lead the gaming industry concerning better quality like they did lead the MMORPG market for long years. Take their strongest competitor .. Blizzard. The company HAS a strong, GOOD reputation for quality. Not entirely true (as especially WoW shows), but still .. its there.
Just a side note: It takes Blizzard about twice the time to make a game than any other company due to the fact that they can't pre-design ANYTHING. They completely scrapped Starcraft, Diablo II, and Warcraft III halfway through development and started over because their games sucked. They can only do iterative design, playing and testing and playing and testing, which is a piss poor way of designing.
Thats the party line we preach daily on this and other forums. However, the critics have a 2 year history of broken promises and "topped peaks just being the foothills of the REAL mountains" to throw at us. And its not getting easier to answer them, especially as SOE tries the old "There is no problem !" approach. That knife has been dull for over a year now and just wont cut it anymore !
See, I don't see two years of broken promises. SWG has always been flawed, partly due to it's overwhelming complexity (which is why I prefer it to anything else out there). I love the fact that I can own a house, set up harvestors, crafter unique armor, modify my spaceship, whip out my AB-1 and cruise around town, jump into space whenever I want, and pick and choose my own character's progression and skills. But this complexity is not with cost. The most complex something is, the harder it is to balance and bugfix. SWG will never be a perfect game. NEVER EVER EVER. But I love it for what it is, and I've definitely seen the team work towards a perfection they'll never reach.
That's why I respect them. They've introduced player mounts and vehicles, which they continue add more even now. They've done player cities, which has had a significant impact on the game. They've revamped how one becomes a Jedi. They've revamped Droid Engineer. They put in space. They've added the Warren and the Death Watch Bunker. And they completely rewrote the entire combat system from a rather large and complex game, against the express will of some very vocal angry people. These are not developers who don't care. They really do, and I have seen more than enough evidence of their hard work to support them.
It's sad that SWG will never be perfect. I'd like to think that a round of bug fixes would make a dent, but it won't. There will just be more bugs. There will still be people complaining about the lack of content. They need to get the theme parks updated to work with the quest journal. And they need to address the near endless list of complaints and suggestions of all the different professions and players. SWG will never be done, and we players are far too nitpicky to ever be happy with it, no matter how exceptional it may be right now. I have to give credit to the devs. Even with the sysphysian task of working on SWG, they have come through, time and again, against odds far greater than you or I could ever truly appreciate.
It's broken. It's beaten. But it's still the best MMORPG out there, and I don't see that changing any time soon. So, do I bother to pine for the game that SWG will never be, or do I accept it and enjoy it for what it is? Back in the beginning, I pined. Oh boy, did I pine. But SWG is finally, with the introduction of the CU and Rotw, to a point where I can accept it. Perhaps it will take a bit more for some people, but for my faith, SWG is more playable than ever, and even with the many bugs and balance issues, it's great like it has always wanted but never achieved. When I say that SWG is in a good place now, it's because it has crawled out of the hole I last left in in. If it climbs higher, and it will, then that's just a bonus.
Originally posted by Erillion Where are the questions about often pushing patches live too soon with not enough testing ? Where are the questions about long overdue bug fixes and profession fixes (ask them about the smuggler revamp promised in autumn 2003) !?! Lets see some journalism here, PULLEZZEEE !!!!!!!! have fun Erillion
If I asked 50 of you guys what the "number one issue" is, I'd get 50 answers. Read this thread, most of you seem to believe that SOE is somehow in league with Satan, but besides the CU being the devil's own creation, you guys cannot agree on what makes it so.
I cover too many games to "know" that the root of all evil is an obscure promise made in Autumn of 2003. This is why I wrote a general article that tells you what SOE said in response to questions about subscriber levels, fan outrage, etc. As I have before, and no one on the anti-CU side ever took me up on, I invite anyone who has a real argument and is a long time fan of the game to write a well thought out, constructive article about "what is wrong" with the CU. I am all for posting both sides of the argument, if I can find a writer to do it.
I rarely post here, but this really ate my lunch... Lep, why don't you and your 'journalistic inhibitions' head on over to the SWG boards for a little 'investigative journalism'... Here is what you do, take the most common complaints that are absolutely valid: broken classes, unfulfilled promises (smuggler revamp, bug fixes), non-combat class direction (do they even have one anymore?) and etc, and head on over to the general forums... Start a topic like 'Problems with SWG after CU', don't be mean, but just list off everything I told you to... Your forum account will be banned, and the post instantly locked... Maybe then, your SOE encrusted eyes might see the truth, and you would think twice before ever posting something based on what a SOE PR rep spoonfed you, and maybe listen to the mass discontent of players everywhere, just look, it's not too hard to find what the real story is...
Don't give us this run of the mill response '50 questions would get you 50 different issues', please, don't patronize us... There are so many issues, that this doesn't pertain to our inability to pinpoint issues for the purpose of solidarity, but rather that the issues are so many and so widespread, one doesn't know where to start...
Then again, all facets of the media are totally fucked up to begin with, why should we expect some hack journalist from a website pertaining to video games to actually do the job right? I think we raised the bar a little to high fellas...
Originally posted by Dis_Ordur Don't give us this run of the mill response '50 questions would get you 50 different issues', please, don't patronize us... There are so many issues, that this doesn't pertain to our inability to pinpoint issues for the purpose of solidarity, but rather that the issues are so many and so widespread, one doesn't know where to start...
Give me five. Be detailed. None of this "broken classes". Which classes? How are they broken? Are these personal preferences, perceived bugs, are real bugs? Are these things which could be corrected in the next patch? Are these unfufilled promises things that were put on the backburner while the six month long CU creation took center stage? Are the non-combat professions going to remain the way that they are forever, or are changes planned or already being implemented? Is the game still playable, despite the bugs?
You write this really offensive post about how "50 people would get you 50 different issues" is so absolutely wrong, but you just attack. You never bother to give us a real, concrete example of why that isn't true. That's the problem with these anti-CU riots. It's all about attacking the opinions of others, and never about defending your own. If you honestly believe the CU is completely broken, tell us why. Don't just call someone a hack journalist and insult their hard work. How exactly are you doing anything except making yourself look like a total asshole?
I have a sneaky suspicion that the reason you attacked his claims rather than countering them is because you are not capable of it. You don't have any idea of what's going on except that your feeble mind has to strain itself to put words to your preconcieve notion of the worth of the CU. You know you don't like it, but you can't verbalize why. You will take anything that supports your personal preference, factual or not, and insult anything which doesn't. How you think that gives you cause to insult the article writer like that is beyond me, and I suspect beyond you as well.
So, either put your money where you mouth is and enter the discussion for real, or sit down and shut the fuck up.
This progress report is BS...The reason there are less complaints on the forums is because players like me against the CU have quit. And now I am seeing commericals and ads everywhere for this game. I hope it burns. They f#cked it up big time with the CU.
well i didnt read this whole thread, but i will add the changes since the cu although needed amount to mostly more bugs. and if sony is saying their numbers are same ol then i got news for ya, there is plenty of emptiness in this game on many servers. the game used to be packed yet now it's an effort to get a group together.
and jedi are disgustingly rampant ingame now. it seems like for every 1 regular player there are at least 4 jedi. they might as well just call it jedi wars. i'm sure broken profs and skills has already been mentioned and they are numerous.
to top it all off the devs seem oblivious and the csr's dont even know how to answer questions properly. someone had a problem with their spaceship recently and the csr told this person to throw bacta tosses around their ship to repair it. that's regardless of the fact that bacta tosses are only to heal players.
all in all after a year of playing i am coming to a close with this game. it seems like it's nothing but jedi and bugs now and i will no longer throw good money after bad.
far from balanced still, in 1on1 doctor/medic can let u heal forever
the Y-8 wich u praise so much is bugged, its impossible to multicrew mine it!
jedi can not kill 2 people that work together very well, the lightsaber attack cost makes it that you are better off just healing yourself till they get bored of healing themselves or fighting u...
The progress of SWG is that the SOE DEVs continue to take a great possibility and beat it into pulp.
SWG could have been the biggest MMO out. But the DEVs are/were too scared to try. They follow the flock and the damage done by old Raph "gamers love to grind and make their content" Koster still shows through even today.
Jedi is whats ruining the game right now. We all know it. Even the players who protect their precious jedi like Golem did the ring know this is true. But SOE wont ever accept this particular part is the biggest problem. They use jedi as the main hook. 90% of their advertising is based on it. And if they can get a player to jump on the jedi bandwagon, then its an almost guarunteed 6 month to a year paid subscription. Instead of keeping players around by actually providing a well balanced, content game universe. Why work and get paid big when you can dump an uber profession in a game and just get by.
I guaruntee if they dumped jedi tomorrow, they would double their subcriber base even with the "I quit" guys.
Originally posted by mattst Here are some of the problems or reasons why i felt i had to leave swg for another game 1 The CU was pushed out around 5 days before the due date with little warning and at the time i was grinding jedi and would have been done before the CU came out. I would have like some time to play the old game with my jedi before it changed forever. 2 The CU hits ok lets log in and try out grinding jedi get missions move to first lair bols easy i did not need a buff anymore to kill these. Move in for the attack ok lets take this nice and slow hit one level 80 like me hang on here its taking a while to kill before the CU ot would take seconds and then the others start to attack had to force run away before i was killed. Right lets look at that again i had the right food or at least the right food before the CU and no buffs anymore so cant be that reason why an easy kill now kicks my butt. Ok next lets try something a little below my level find a level 78 2 levels below me so i attack its on its own should be no problem to a level 80 jedi well 10 minutes later i win hang on where is my xps look in the combat log i get none for something that takes me ten minutes to kill. 3 Leave my jedi to try my other alt change him to a BH with carbines that looks like a nice combo plus i have loads of nice weapons that cost me a fair packet but whats this they are now crap so i have spent hours getting the money and the K/Tissues to make these weapons for nothing. Next armor got loads of nice composite armor but hang on again under the new system all armor does is look nice mights has well run around in your underpants. But then again at least i can kill stuff with this one so i learn a little bit about the icons with this toon and will log in my jedi latter to try again. 4 Next stage i have been on for a few hours now and think i am getting the hang of it a bit more so log on the jedi and head out but not get any missions Dantooine is full of things to kill for xps. Success i kill a quacker and get 900 odd xps but it took me over 20 mins with having to run and heal a few times so how the hell am i going to get the 3-4 million xps i need to finish my grind? 5 All on the same day its now been 6 to 7 hours and i am getting the fealing that this game is now dead to me how can i even think about grinding jedi and getting maybe 20000 xps per hour instead of the 200000 i was getting before the CU so i head back to my home city on my bike and then bang i was killed in one hit by a hurtun when i went past it on my bike great now i have lost 200000 xps so i now have -xps to try and get back cheers SOE. 6 Day 2 whats this the server i am on is down and there are people saying we are getting a roll back of anything upto 7 DAYS. Don't worry i think its just panic when it comes back up everything will be fine and maybe i will be able to grind again. Well no when it comes back up i have lost all the xps i have grinded over the last 7 days which was over 3 million plus I have also now lost my ADK which was not even working on my lightsaber anymore the day before but we were told it would be fixed ok send in a ticket and see what they say. The reply comes and its the same cut and paste job everyone esle was getting saying we are very sorry for your lossed xps and items but there is nothing we can do. Now hang on here i was only days away from finishing my grind and now i am months away if it takes me 20 mins to get 900 odd xps. At this stage i am so mad i could cry. So what do SOE offer us x4 xps for one week big deal. There is no way i could make that back under the new system even if it was x10 xps per kill. Some say you have to group now to kill things like we used to be able to do but you cant group if you are a jedi without getting on the terms and with BH being the new TKA you wont last long which means you are going to lose more xps then you gain. So to sum it all up these are my main reasons/problems why i left 1 Can not grind jedi anymore. 2 Weapons and i worked hard to get and now usless. 3 Armor is now not needed, 4 Food is now not needed. 5 Whichs mean that the crafting side of swg of which i had an alt to do is now pretty much worthless. 6 I need to learn everthing again which will mean i will get killed and lose even more xps. 7 I don't wish to pay for a game which is still more or less in beta form. 8 Why should i play a game in which SOE really don't care how they treat you just has long has the money is coming in. I am sure there are more but i cant think of them all right now. Plus for give any spelling mistakes that is not one of my strong points. I now play WOW. Been so for around 5 weeks its not bad the PvP can be great and sometimes it can make you scream when you get killed by someone with ?? above there head ( those who play WOW will know what thats means) But SWG in its old form was in my opinion a lot better but lacked the pick up and play feal of WOW.
Abit dramatic there arent we? I can tell a HUGE difference when I don't have my armor on. I would hardly count it as useless. I am sorry you lost your 90% composite God armor, but get over it. Apparently you appreciated everyone looking like a composite clone.
I had a friend just finish grinding jedi POST CU, so next time lets try to be alittle more accurate with your statements, shall we?
Crafting worthless? Seems to me ALL crafters are needed now and badly! Armor crafters have more demand for everything now and not just composite suits. High grade weapons are still highly sought after by the best weapon makers, tailoring still gets all its benefits with BE. Food no longer adds to the God mode doc buffs did but its still highly desireable with the new system. Our guilds master chef is still cooking away daily in her kitchen for us!
So if you wanna complain about the CU, thats fine. Its your right to do so. However don't sit and exagerate and lie about the current state of the game. If thats all you got out of it I would say you actually tried it for about 2 minutes and then started crying cause it wasn't how it used to be. Find some intelligiable arguement the next time please.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by mattst Fadeus people like you are just worthless and stop others from posting what they want because they don't want to get in a flame war.
I think Fadeus stated his point intelligently, and in a non-flaming manner. You're simply angry that you cannot verbalize a good return arguement.
I just cancelled all my accounts because im tired of a DEV team who dont understand anything about the game, the CU had many big impacts, ive noticed a large decrease in Vets and even the Jedi corrispondant son-g Left because he was tired of the devs not listening to player demands. The game went down hill when "thunderheart" took over and the new team because they dont understand the code ect of the game. I think its pretty bad when they relied on a solution to the rubber banding effect from a couple of average players who knew what was wrong before a whole dev team...somethings wrong with that. Bottom line i believe is Galaxies is on a steady decline and will continue to go down. Game has no content thats free, in order to get anything from the game u are forced to PAY for it.
Originally posted by mattst Fadeus people like you are just worthless and stop others from posting what they want because they don't want to get in a flame war.
Thats it, you personal attack my character and accusing me of stopping anyone from speaking here? YOUR the only one flaming and I gave valid arguements to everything you said. So apparently you can't argue my points if that is all you have to say.
If you didn't want to be argued I suggest you not post in a forum. Your points were wrong, extremely exxagerated, and misleading. I gave my side of all your points and now I am worthless.
How mature.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by darquenblade Originally posted by mattst Fadeus people like you are just worthless and stop others from posting what they want because they don't want to get in a flame war.
I think Fadeus stated his point intelligently, and in a non-flaming manner. You're simply angry that you cannot verbalize a good return arguement.
Thank you, thats appreciated.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Next time you get a chance to ask them questions, how about asking why they released the Combat Upgrade in a state where it "could have gone better?" I seems to be a policy at SOE at least where Galaxies is concerned not to be very concerned about making fun content, a solid playable world for everyone and driving the story. Some of the mistakes they made were so obvious many fans honestly speculate SOE torpedoed SWG in the early days to keep it from grabbing EQ Numbers.
They do have some firsts though. These come to mind
1st MMO to only allow one character per account.
1st MMO to have a engine that often doesn't allow structures to be seen.
1st MMO whos reward system was originally all items with Junk or broken in the name.
1st MMO to force players to grind ever profession in order to achieve a major player goal.
1st MMO to balance a class against a system they hadn't made yet ( Jedi reworked to balance it with the Combat Upgrade ) I guess it does fit the way the movies were done to though so it might not matter that it didn't work well in the MMO environment.
There are far more problems with this game than there are reasons to play it. My honest hope is that Lucas Arts eventually figures out just how bad it is and pulls the plug. Maybe eventually they will give it another try with a better team and a different company.
Fadeus, I dont know why I try and bother reasoning with someone like you but here goes....
You state that armor isnt useless because the demand is high. So lets simplify for you what we mean....demand doesnt equal usefulness. Sure everyone needs armor and yes it does help. However, due to a damage multiplier system the value of armor is negligible. To dumb it down even further for you...im lvl 80 combatant, i attack a lvl 80 kaduu with the junkiest armor possible equipped..I win the outcome. My friend goes to a 12 point smith who has collected the best resources over a 2 year period..he equips him with the absolute best possible armor ever...he's lvl 80 and attacks a lvl 80 kaduu and wins in the same fashion. Therefore Fadeus, try and follow the logic, POINTLESS.
Lets go further if we dare....
Im lvl 80 combatant. I fight a lvl 85 Blacksun mob and die. So I go to a 12 point smith and get myself some 12 point ubber krayt enhanced weapons. I also get the best armor and food. Finally I invest 100 million in some skill tapes. I go back to that lvl 85 Blacksun and STILL LOSE. No matter what I do, no matter how good my strategy is, no matter how good my gear is, I will ALWAYS lose.
So in essence, SOE has turned our beloved SKILL-BASED game into a pointless grind. The grind was always there, however we knew there were ways to improve ourselves. There was always a goal to achieve like capping speed tapes in clothing or getting a complete set of ris armor or mando armor, getting that elusive legendary item too. Now all completely pointless thanks to a dumbed down damage multiplier. So in the end, the game will remind its players of WoW, fun for 1 month then gets old and boring cause there are no long-term goals.
Now what part of that did you not understand kid ? But why am I bothering anyway, its obvious you like dumbed down games and SOE in general as you play their other pathetic excuse for a game (EQ2)
Originally posted by admriker444 Fadeus, I dont know why I try and bother reasoning with someone like you but here goes.... You state that armor isnt useless because the demand is high. So lets simplify for you what we mean....demand doesnt equal usefulness. Sure everyone needs armor and yes it does help. However, due to a damage multiplier system the value of armor is negligible. To dumb it down even further for you...im lvl 80 combatant, i attack a lvl 80 kaduu with the junkiest armor possible equipped..I win the outcome. My friend goes to a 12 point smith who has collected the best resources over a 2 year period..he equips him with the absolute best possible armor ever...he's lvl 80 and attacks a lvl 80 kaduu and wins in the same fashion. Therefore Fadeus, try and follow the logic, POINTLESS. Lets go further if we dare.... Im lvl 80 combatant. I fight a lvl 85 Blacksun mob and die. So I go to a 12 point smith and get myself some 12 point ubber krayt enhanced weapons. I also get the best armor and food. Finally I invest 100 million in some skill tapes. I go back to that lvl 85 Blacksun and STILL LOSE. No matter what I do, no matter how good my strategy is, no matter how good my gear is, I will ALWAYS lose. So in essence, SOE has turned our beloved SKILL-BASED game into a pointless grind. The grind was always there, however we knew there were ways to improve ourselves. There was always a goal to achieve like capping speed tapes in clothing or getting a complete set of ris armor or mando armor, getting that elusive legendary item too. Now all completely pointless thanks to a dumbed down damage multiplier. So in the end, the game will remind its players of WoW, fun for 1 month then gets old and boring cause there are no long-term goals. Now what part of that did you not understand kid ? But why am I bothering anyway, its obvious you like dumbed down games and SOE in general as you play their other pathetic excuse for a game (EQ2)
You need to work on your reading skills admirker. I never said armor isn't useless because demand is high. When you can read right and actually start the basis of your arguement with something accurate to what I said then I will bother answering the entire thing. Until then go ahead and rant your head off, no one is paying attention.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
"Tracking down bugs is a nightmare, and if you don't yet know the system, it's even worse."
Why were people not familiar enough with the system to test it properly making real changes to it?
I've had more posts deleted on the SOE forums than I can count. Once they deleted one that just said, "For once I think SOE got it right" They certainly broke new ground in the way they abused the forum users while claiming they were being attuned to us.
I wanted to love the game but the devs simply seemed determined to make that impossible. When faced with choices it always seems to me they took the worse possible one.
When we came to the Combat Upgrade. This change brought down fury from some quarters of the community, while others embraced it as a change that was sorely overdue. The team believes that players were more afraid of the idea then reality. For example, when someone re-arranged the furniture in their house, at first they find it unfamiliar and slightly distressing. However, in the end, there is probably a reason they made the change and once they adjust, they realize it was for the better.
To give us this drivel is inane, when someone rearranges our home, we either pay for the changes or we consult a designer... and we paid soe monthly.. we protested on the test server and were kicked for it.. just cuase some newbies [possibly piad with free items or credits to glorify a rotten fish ] procalim it great... remember they still say the edsel is the car of dreams, well swg is now the edsel of software.
soe rammed the cu upgrade up our snouts and said here take this, we knew a change was cxoming but not as sad as this, , they tried to cloth thier eq3 clone with pretty vehicles and a new planet.. bah.. the true veterans saw through this and demanded action, to which soe has so far turned a deaf ear. there are several petitions online that bring the amount o a lil over 200k in protests,,,, a few slight changes were needed. not the clone of the centrury...
and fadues ; admriker444 is partially right about the ganked armor issues, and yes there is more to it... are you with soe.. cause you seem to push a blind eye to the issues faced by the people and bray at anyone who shows concern at the how bad the cu really is...
Originally posted by admriker444 Im lvl 80 combatant. I fight a lvl 85 Blacksun mob and die. So I go to a 12 point smith and get myself some 12 point ubber krayt enhanced weapons. I also get the best armor and food. Finally I invest 100 million in some skill tapes. I go back to that lvl 85 Blacksun and STILL LOSE. No matter what I do, no matter how good my strategy is, no matter how good my gear is, I will ALWAYS lose.
Well, thats the point, is it not ? YOU lose, WE dont. YOU are frustrated, WE are not. YOU should learn to use your skills, WE have done so.
A mob at +5 levels is very hard, but killable. And yes, the best in equipment makes a difference here (at +5 level difference). NOT at +10 or higher ... here you are right .. there the level difference overshadows everything. However, there should be no mobs higher than 85 anywhere (if there are, its a bug that needs to be reported and fixed ... like the 194 level super battle droids on the corvette).
Originally posted by Lepidus I obviously asked about subscription levels, and posted their response in the article. If you do not believe them, that is your choice, but it would be irresponsible of me to make such a claim based only on anecdotal evidence. The intent of this article was to get their response to the various concerns that have been raised lately. Now you have it - if you don't like it, that is again your choice - don't shoot the messanger.
Just an idea, but instead of asking a company that has shown itself to be as anti-customer as AOL (and in the 6 yrs or so since EQ released, shown itself to have no problems with simply lieing or promising things it doesnt then carry through on), maybe you should try LOGING into the game on each server and look around. For that matter, simply go to create a new user and look at the server list, which last time i looked had maybe 3 or 4 servers showing LIGHT load, and all the rest not even ranking a LIGHT load designation.
Oh, and your question of Subscription levels, did you simply ask them have you seen a drop in subscription levels, or did you ask them have you seen any drop in SWG subscription levels? If you want to ask probing, real questions, make sure you phrase them correctly. If you asked the 1st one, then SOE probably said no, because they were looking at their total subscription #s, including other games. Not what you meant, but a possible interpretation for the question.
Originally posted by SteeJahns Originally posted by Lepidus I obviously asked about subscription levels, and posted their response in the article. If you do not believe them, that is your choice, but it would be irresponsible of me to make such a claim based only on anecdotal evidence. The intent of this article was to get their response to the various concerns that have been raised lately. Now you have it - if you don't like it, that is again your choice - don't shoot the messanger. Just an idea, but instead of asking a company that has shown itself to be as anti-customer as AOL (and in the 6 yrs or so since EQ released, shown itself to have no problems with simply lieing or promising things it doesnt then carry through on), maybe you should try LOGING into the game on each server and look around. For that matter, simply go to create a new user and look at the server list, which last time i looked had maybe 3 or 4 servers showing LIGHT load, and all the rest not even ranking a LIGHT load designation. Oh, and your question of Subscription levels, did you simply ask them have you seen a drop in subscription levels, or did you ask them have you seen any drop in SWG subscription levels? If you want to ask probing, real questions, make sure you phrase them correctly. If you asked the 1st one, then SOE probably said no, because they were looking at their total subscription #s, including other games. Not what you meant, but a possible interpretation for the question.
I understand how to phrase a question. Yes, I asked about SWG and as said several times - they admited an initial drop in subscription levels that eventually evened out after SWG Rage of the Wookiees and the release of the third film. Despite the conspiracy theories - this is hardly a ridiculous claim. The fact that an expansion and a major motion picture allowed the subscribers to remain about even says something about the impact of the CU itself.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
--> Why not listening to the profession correspondents then, who not only compiled once, but maybe 10 times already detailed, priorized to-do lists ? Listening to 30 people is much easier than to 300k players. And some of the non-correspondents have drafted detailed, constructive, well-thought out design papers for enhancements to the game ... which the correspondents tried to bring to the attention of the dev team.
They just banned one correspondant for trolling. They don't all have halos around their head. They are still players, and their interests are still intensely selfish. I believe many of them were testing the CU before it went on test, and had made many contributions to the CU ahead of time. Not all suggestions are feasible, and certainly not all suggestions are good, and of course, not all suggestions are within the scope of the project.
--> Why did you not do CU Alpha testing with the chosen sandbox teams ?
Duh. Time. They had a deadline and needed to get it tested as broadly and quickly as possible. The sandbox teams would've been a nice luxery, but it just wasn't possible with the new expansion coming out so soon.
--> Many were doing it constructively. And no one listened. And no one seemed to care. And some representatives at fan gatherings speaking about "only 50 people dont like CU" did not help either. So people got more radical in their means of expression.
When 10,000 voices scream out, how exactly the expect to hear just the good ones? They don't have the time to sift through the flames to find the diamonds in the rough. Honestly, I've read well constructed anti-CU posts, but I thought they were approaching the problem from a different perspective than the team wanted - meaning that it was practically useless in most respects. They can't hear you if everybody talks at once - and everybody was screaming at the top of their lungs. If SOE put on earmuffs, are you really going to blame them? I have no reason to expect that this kind of behavior would continue once the angry throng has had the time to cool down.
--> no opinion is not automatically a positive opinion. You lost thousands of players , many having never posted on forums at all.
No opinion is no opinion, positive or negative. Why should the no opinion players have to suffer the angry spamming of players around the starports?
--> Many people here think you tried hard, then ran out of time and then had to implement what some called an "angry bag with varying skins" design. And an abitrary level difference based modifier that totally dominates the combat system and makes quality of skills, weapons, armor almost irrelevant. And one fact has been obvious ... none of the planets made it into live servers with ANY balancing passes .. as the many level 100-300 mobs one-hit incapping everyone in the first post-Cu weeks showed us. I am not sure if they are all gone til now (--> Corvette boarding quests are unplayable because of it with level 194 Super Battle Droids).
First, armor and weapons do matter a great deal. You won't get far with a CDEF rifle. Second, the CU has been getting more and more balanced with every hotfix and publish. How long are you going to hold a grudge against something which is no longer a problem?
--> We never had problems with levels. They have been in the game for years now. But the new level difference based modifier dominating everything at the moment ... making quality of equipment more or less irrelevant (which caused A LOT of anger amongst the crafter population) ... which the developers introduced hasty and late in testing ... THAT has caused an insane amount of wailing and teeth gnashing and despair. It just does not fit as well as it should be.
I agree that it could fit a little better. They did retrofit a new system back on something that wasn't entirely designed for it. However, I will say that I do like it, so we'll chalk combat level up to personal preference and not some innate and inalienable flaw in the system.
--> After 2 YEARS !!! you can expect SOME balance. Difficult or not, people have been VERY patient with the dev team. And SWG is STILL a huge beta test that people pay for.
To be fair, the CU was a SIGNIFICANT change design solely to deal with these balance issues. In many ways, they succeeded. It just needs a little fine tuning.
--> There ARE professional tools for that. Are they used ? There ARE professional QA teams for that. Are they employed to do SWG testing ? There are international quality standards in the software industry .. has the team been certified in any of those standards which WILL improve product quality !?
I think you'll find that game development is about ten years behind other software engineering - not just at SOE, but in general. The reason I left the industry is precisely for this reason. Concepts like design patterns and refactoring, which are old and practically basic, are absolutely foreign to game development houses. This is changing. But again, this is hardly a mark against SOE specifically and more a charge against the game industry at large.
--> That I believe 100 %. That you dont succeed as you should tells me that your team is too small or underfunded or both. Which means Sony or Lucasarts or both are milking too much profit out of SWG and standards suffer. Which is a problem of management, not the coders.
I think the problem at first was that the game was forced out the door before it was ready. It took the first year just to deliver mounts, player cities, vehicles, and space - and it was obvious that this content was more important than bug fixes. Then, once that was done, they noticed how badly damaged the rest of the game was, and the Live Team just wasn't going to be fixing it alone. So they hired new people and decided to redesign combat.
The major problem was that they had two MAJOR releases (the CU and RotW) and a nearly impossible deadline to meet. Like I said, even the largest software development houses would have a hard time doing two major projects that directly impacted each other at the same time and on such a small schedule. They were understaffed to do it - completely and totally.
However, it's done now. I don't expect another change in the same scope as the CU, perhaps ever again. We should continue to see new expansions twice a year, and they should be able to handle that just fine. They bit off more than they could chew, but they did the best with what they had under nearly impossible circumstances, and I don't think enough people give them credit for that.
It WILL get better. They've topped the peak. The hardest part is behind us, and with a larger team and new focus on content, I think we'll be seeing SWG get even better with every publish and expansion. The CU is done and over with, and any complaints you have now are simply grudges that you won't let go. If you look forward and see where SWG can go now, it's really quite awesome.
Originally posted by Erillion
If I asked 50 of you guys what the "number one issue" is, I'd get 50 answers. Read this thread, most of you seem to believe that SOE is somehow in league with Satan, but besides the CU being the devil's own creation, you guys cannot agree on what makes it so.
I cover too many games to "know" that the root of all evil is an obscure promise made in Autumn of 2003. This is why I wrote a general article that tells you what SOE said in response to questions about subscriber levels, fan outrage, etc. As I have before, and no one on the anti-CU side ever took me up on, I invite anyone who has a real argument and is a long time fan of the game to write a well thought out, constructive article about "what is wrong" with the CU. I am all for posting both sides of the argument, if I can find a writer to do it.
I rarely post here, but this really ate my lunch... Lep, why don't you and your 'journalistic inhibitions' head on over to the SWG boards for a little 'investigative journalism'... Here is what you do, take the most common complaints that are absolutely valid: broken classes, unfulfilled promises (smuggler revamp, bug fixes), non-combat class direction (do they even have one anymore?) and etc, and head on over to the general forums... Start a topic like 'Problems with SWG after CU', don't be mean, but just list off everything I told you to... Your forum account will be banned, and the post instantly locked... Maybe then, your SOE encrusted eyes might see the truth, and you would think twice before ever posting something based on what a SOE PR rep spoonfed you, and maybe listen to the mass discontent of players everywhere, just look, it's not too hard to find what the real story is...
Don't give us this run of the mill response '50 questions would get you 50 different issues', please, don't patronize us... There are so many issues, that this doesn't pertain to our inability to pinpoint issues for the purpose of solidarity, but rather that the issues are so many and so widespread, one doesn't know where to start...
Then again, all facets of the media are totally fucked up to begin with, why should we expect some hack journalist from a website pertaining to video games to actually do the job right? I think we raised the bar a little to high fellas...
One more thing, this website is horribly slow...
Give me five. Be detailed. None of this "broken classes". Which classes? How are they broken? Are these personal preferences, perceived bugs, are real bugs? Are these things which could be corrected in the next patch? Are these unfufilled promises things that were put on the backburner while the six month long CU creation took center stage? Are the non-combat professions going to remain the way that they are forever, or are changes planned or already being implemented? Is the game still playable, despite the bugs?
You write this really offensive post about how "50 people would get you 50 different issues" is so absolutely wrong, but you just attack. You never bother to give us a real, concrete example of why that isn't true. That's the problem with these anti-CU riots. It's all about attacking the opinions of others, and never about defending your own. If you honestly believe the CU is completely broken, tell us why. Don't just call someone a hack journalist and insult their hard work. How exactly are you doing anything except making yourself look like a total asshole?
I have a sneaky suspicion that the reason you attacked his claims rather than countering them is because you are not capable of it. You don't have any idea of what's going on except that your feeble mind has to strain itself to put words to your preconcieve notion of the worth of the CU. You know you don't like it, but you can't verbalize why. You will take anything that supports your personal preference, factual or not, and insult anything which doesn't. How you think that gives you cause to insult the article writer like that is beyond me, and I suspect beyond you as well.
So, either put your money where you mouth is and enter the discussion for real, or sit down and shut the fuck up.
well i didnt read this whole thread, but i will add the changes since the cu although needed amount to mostly more bugs. and if sony is saying their numbers are same ol then i got news for ya, there is plenty of emptiness in this game on many servers. the game used to be packed yet now it's an effort to get a group together.
and jedi are disgustingly rampant ingame now. it seems like for every 1 regular player there are at least 4 jedi. they might as well just call it jedi wars. i'm sure broken profs and skills has already been mentioned and they are numerous.
to top it all off the devs seem oblivious and the csr's dont even know how to answer questions properly. someone had a problem with their spaceship recently and the csr told this person to throw bacta tosses around their ship to repair it. that's regardless of the fact that bacta tosses are only to heal players.
all in all after a year of playing i am coming to a close with this game. it seems like it's nothing but jedi and bugs now and i will no longer throw good money after bad.
far from balanced still, in 1on1 doctor/medic can let u heal forever
the Y-8 wich u praise so much is bugged, its impossible to multicrew mine it!
jedi can not kill 2 people that work together very well, the lightsaber attack cost makes it that you are better off just healing yourself till they get bored of healing themselves or fighting u...
The progress of SWG is that the SOE DEVs continue to take a great possibility and beat it into pulp.
SWG could have been the biggest MMO out. But the DEVs are/were too scared to try. They follow the flock and the damage done by old Raph "gamers love to grind and make their content" Koster still shows through even today.
Jedi is whats ruining the game right now. We all know it. Even the players who protect their precious jedi like Golem did the ring know this is true. But SOE wont ever accept this particular part is the biggest problem. They use jedi as the main hook. 90% of their advertising is based on it. And if they can get a player to jump on the jedi bandwagon, then its an almost guarunteed 6 month to a year paid subscription. Instead of keeping players around by actually providing a well balanced, content game universe. Why work and get paid big when you can dump an uber profession in a game and just get by.
I guaruntee if they dumped jedi tomorrow, they would double their subcriber base even with the "I quit" guys.
Kai
Abit dramatic there arent we? I can tell a HUGE difference when I don't have my armor on. I would hardly count it as useless. I am sorry you lost your 90% composite God armor, but get over it. Apparently you appreciated everyone looking like a composite clone.
I had a friend just finish grinding jedi POST CU, so next time lets try to be alittle more accurate with your statements, shall we?
Crafting worthless? Seems to me ALL crafters are needed now and badly! Armor crafters have more demand for everything now and not just composite suits. High grade weapons are still highly sought after by the best weapon makers, tailoring still gets all its benefits with BE. Food no longer adds to the God mode doc buffs did but its still highly desireable with the new system. Our guilds master chef is still cooking away daily in her kitchen for us!
So if you wanna complain about the CU, thats fine. Its your right to do so. However don't sit and exagerate and lie about the current state of the game. If thats all you got out of it I would say you actually tried it for about 2 minutes and then started crying cause it wasn't how it used to be. Find some intelligiable arguement the next time please.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Fadeus people like you are just worthless and stop others from posting what they want because they don't want to get in a flame war.
I think Fadeus stated his point intelligently, and in a non-flaming manner. You're simply angry that you cannot verbalize a good return arguement.
I just cancelled all my accounts because im tired of a DEV team who dont understand anything about the game, the CU had many big impacts, ive noticed a large decrease in Vets and even the Jedi corrispondant son-g Left because he was tired of the devs not listening to player demands. The game went down hill when "thunderheart" took over and the new team because they dont understand the code ect of the game. I think its pretty bad when they relied on a solution to the rubber banding effect from a couple of average players who knew what was wrong before a whole dev team...somethings wrong with that. Bottom line i believe is Galaxies is on a steady decline and will continue to go down. Game has no content thats free, in order to get anything from the game u are forced to PAY for it.
Thats it, you personal attack my character and accusing me of stopping anyone from speaking here? YOUR the only one flaming and I gave valid arguements to everything you said. So apparently you can't argue my points if that is all you have to say.
If you didn't want to be argued I suggest you not post in a forum. Your points were wrong, extremely exxagerated, and misleading. I gave my side of all your points and now I am worthless.
How mature.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I think Fadeus stated his point intelligently, and in a non-flaming manner. You're simply angry that you cannot verbalize a good return arguement.
Thank you, thats appreciated.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Next time you get a chance to ask them questions, how about asking why they released the Combat Upgrade in a state where it "could have gone better?" I seems to be a policy at SOE at least where Galaxies is concerned not to be very concerned about making fun content, a solid playable world for everyone and driving the story. Some of the mistakes they made were so obvious many fans honestly speculate SOE torpedoed SWG in the early days to keep it from grabbing EQ Numbers.
They do have some firsts though. These come to mind
1st MMO to only allow one character per account.
1st MMO to have a engine that often doesn't allow structures to be seen.
1st MMO whos reward system was originally all items with Junk or broken in the name.
1st MMO to force players to grind ever profession in order to achieve a major player goal.
1st MMO to balance a class against a system they hadn't made yet ( Jedi reworked to balance it with the Combat Upgrade ) I guess it does fit the way the movies were done to though so it might not matter that it didn't work well in the MMO environment.
There are far more problems with this game than there are reasons to play it. My honest hope is that Lucas Arts eventually figures out just how bad it is and pulls the plug. Maybe eventually they will give it another try with a better team and a different company.
Fadeus, I dont know why I try and bother reasoning with someone like you but here goes....
You state that armor isnt useless because the demand is high. So lets simplify for you what we mean....demand doesnt equal usefulness. Sure everyone needs armor and yes it does help. However, due to a damage multiplier system the value of armor is negligible. To dumb it down even further for you...im lvl 80 combatant, i attack a lvl 80 kaduu with the junkiest armor possible equipped..I win the outcome. My friend goes to a 12 point smith who has collected the best resources over a 2 year period..he equips him with the absolute best possible armor ever...he's lvl 80 and attacks a lvl 80 kaduu and wins in the same fashion. Therefore Fadeus, try and follow the logic, POINTLESS.
Lets go further if we dare....
Im lvl 80 combatant. I fight a lvl 85 Blacksun mob and die. So I go to a 12 point smith and get myself some 12 point ubber krayt enhanced weapons. I also get the best armor and food. Finally I invest 100 million in some skill tapes. I go back to that lvl 85 Blacksun and STILL LOSE. No matter what I do, no matter how good my strategy is, no matter how good my gear is, I will ALWAYS lose.
So in essence, SOE has turned our beloved SKILL-BASED game into a pointless grind. The grind was always there, however we knew there were ways to improve ourselves. There was always a goal to achieve like capping speed tapes in clothing or getting a complete set of ris armor or mando armor, getting that elusive legendary item too. Now all completely pointless thanks to a dumbed down damage multiplier. So in the end, the game will remind its players of WoW, fun for 1 month then gets old and boring cause there are no long-term goals.
Now what part of that did you not understand kid ? But why am I bothering anyway, its obvious you like dumbed down games and SOE in general as you play their other pathetic excuse for a game (EQ2)
You need to work on your reading skills admirker. I never said armor isn't useless because demand is high. When you can read right and actually start the basis of your arguement with something accurate to what I said then I will bother answering the entire thing. Until then go ahead and rant your head off, no one is paying attention.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Maybe this answered the problem completely in SWG
"Tracking down bugs is a nightmare, and if you don't yet know the system, it's even worse."
Why were people not familiar enough with the system to test it properly making real changes to it?
I've had more posts deleted on the SOE forums than I can count. Once they deleted one that just said, "For once I think SOE got it right" They certainly broke new ground in the way they abused the forum users while claiming they were being attuned to us.
I wanted to love the game but the devs simply seemed determined to make that impossible. When faced with choices it always seems to me they took the worse possible one.
To give us this drivel is inane, when someone rearranges our home, we either pay for the changes or we consult a designer... and we paid soe monthly.. we protested on the test server and were kicked for it.. just cuase some newbies [possibly piad with free items or credits to glorify a rotten fish ] procalim it great... remember they still say the edsel is the car of dreams, well swg is now the edsel of software.
soe rammed the cu upgrade up our snouts and said here take this, we knew a change was cxoming but not as sad as this, , they tried to cloth thier eq3 clone with pretty vehicles and a new planet.. bah.. the true veterans saw through this and demanded action, to which soe has so far turned a deaf ear. there are several petitions online that bring the amount o a lil over 200k in protests,,,, a few slight changes were needed. not the clone of the centrury...
and fadues ; admriker444 is partially right about the ganked armor issues, and yes there is more to it... are you with soe.. cause you seem to push a blind eye to the issues faced by the people and bray at anyone who shows concern at the how bad the cu really is...
Well, thats the point, is it not ? YOU lose, WE dont. YOU are frustrated, WE are not. YOU should learn to use your skills, WE have done so.
A mob at +5 levels is very hard, but killable. And yes, the best in equipment makes a difference here (at +5 level difference). NOT at +10 or higher ... here you are right .. there the level difference overshadows everything. However, there should be no mobs higher than 85 anywhere (if there are, its a bug that needs to be reported and fixed ... like the 194 level super battle droids on the corvette).
Have fun
Erillion
Just an idea, but instead of asking a company that has shown itself to be as anti-customer as AOL (and in the 6 yrs or so since EQ released, shown itself to have no problems with simply lieing or promising things it doesnt then carry through on), maybe you should try LOGING into the game on each server and look around. For that matter, simply go to create a new user and look at the server list, which last time i looked had maybe 3 or 4 servers showing LIGHT load, and all the rest not even ranking a LIGHT load designation.
Oh, and your question of Subscription levels, did you simply ask them have you seen a drop in subscription levels, or did you ask them have you seen any drop in SWG subscription levels? If you want to ask probing, real questions, make sure you phrase them correctly. If you asked the 1st one, then SOE probably said no, because they were looking at their total subscription #s, including other games. Not what you meant, but a possible interpretation for the question.
I understand how to phrase a question. Yes, I asked about SWG and as said several times - they admited an initial drop in subscription levels that eventually evened out after SWG Rage of the Wookiees and the release of the third film. Despite the conspiracy theories - this is hardly a ridiculous claim. The fact that an expansion and a major motion picture allowed the subscribers to remain about even says something about the impact of the CU itself.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios